Flamethrower autoattack

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Posted by: Aegael.6938

Aegael.6938

Condition damage can now be applied fractionally, so can we get fractional burns on each flamethrower auto tick now? It just seems right…

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Posted by: Xyonon.3987

Xyonon.3987

like you burn DURING aa? great idea actually

Ziggs Ironeye – Engineer | Madame Le Blanc – Mesmer | Mentor (PvE) | EU
“Mentoring engineers / mesmers and showing you what you can do with your fantastic class!
Just pm me for my advice! Always eager to help!”

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Posted by: Arantheal.7396

Arantheal.7396

that makes the point “deals 10% more dmg on burning targets” kinda useless in the tooltipp, since you have it up for each tick anyways. So unless a-net decides to take away the 10% dmg increase on burning targets and buffs the AA dmg by another 10% straight, I don’t think this change is a good idea. it would also abuse runes of the flame-legion for having the +7% dmg proc active always for the AA and take away any counter-play for this condition since it times out way faster than one can react to it, which means a huge dmg buff for condi-builds.
Additionally it is already possible to stack enough condi-duration to maintain perma-burning just from the AA, so if you now run this change together with that duration that means perma-burning without any chance of counter-play except running away or dodging constantly, cause LoS, wall of reflection and other defensive cd’s will not help ever.
Condi-clear would become useless against it as well.
As much as I’d love to melt peoples faces off with this, it would be broken as hell.

Engineer is love, Engineer is life.

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Posted by: Gaaroth.2567

Gaaroth.2567

What OP asks is just the final hit burning damage to be spread on all spray ticks..do not see how this would be broken

Tempest & Druid
Wat r u, casul?

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Posted by: santenal.1054

santenal.1054

In general hip shot is the best (ranged) auto attack for a power engineer , tranquilizer dart is the best for a condition engineer and flamejet is probably the best autoattack (damage wise) for a celestial engineer(theoretically). But because the burning is only applied on the last tick of the flame jet (if it hits!) meaning that the burning will most of the time never be applied at all, meaning that all celestial engineers autoattacks are far inferior to that of power and condition builds. This can be solved by changing how the burning of the flamejet is applied. Either applying it on the first hit (maybe to OP) or partially applying it on every tick that hits.
some calculations
stats wolfineers wvw static discharge build hip shot (814*0.57*2.04+814*0.43)/0.75=1728 damage/sec (2305 armor 16182 health) (flamjet=1626 tranquilizer dart=1059)
stats wolfineers wvw condition build tranquilizer dart (174*0.33*1.57+174*0.67+778)/0.75=1312 damage/sec (2716 armor 20812 health) (hip shot=559 flamejet=1114)
stats wolfineers wvw celestial build flamejet WITH BURNING (1710*0.36*2.0+1710*0.64+449*1.75)/2.25=1382 damage/sec (2456 armor 21302 health) (hip shot= 1118 tranquilizer dart= 1082)
flamejet WITHOUT BURNING = 1033 damage/sec
the burning damage is only applied by the last tick if you miss this one tick you lose alot of your damage.
fun fact: i apply more burning with my med kit then with my flamethrower.

(edited by santenal.1054)

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Posted by: Phineas Poe.3018

Phineas Poe.3018

flamejet is probably the best autoattack (damage wise) for a celestial engineer(theoretically).

I’m curious how you came to this conclusion when the bomb kit has by and far the most powerful auto-attack we have.

You will generate the majority of your burning damage from Incendiary Powder, not from Flame Jet, anyway, so comparing auto-attacks seems like a disservice to me.

[EG] Ethereal Guardians

(edited by Phineas Poe.3018)

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Posted by: Phineas Poe.3018

Phineas Poe.3018

As much as I’d love to melt peoples faces off with this, it would be broken as hell.

There is absolutely nothing broken about the flamethrower except its inability to remain competitive to other options.

[EG] Ethereal Guardians

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Posted by: Xyonon.3987

Xyonon.3987

Since bomb aa deals like double damage, I wouldnt say either that it’s op. It would buff the FT aa sure, but that’s the purpose of the thread, now isn’kitten And I think we can all agree that the FT aa is indeed kinda weak compared to other options wich beside of dealing more damage also can hit 2 more targets.

Ziggs Ironeye – Engineer | Madame Le Blanc – Mesmer | Mentor (PvE) | EU
“Mentoring engineers / mesmers and showing you what you can do with your fantastic class!
Just pm me for my advice! Always eager to help!”

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Posted by: santenal.1054

santenal.1054

flamejet is probably the best autoattack (damage wise) for a celestial engineer(theoretically).

I’m curious how you came to this conclusion when the bomb kit has by and far the most powerful auto-attack we have.

You will generate the majority of your burning damage from Incendiary Powder, not from Flame Jet, anyway, so comparing auto-attacks seems like a disservice to me.

i was talking about ranged auto-attacks (i dont consider the max range of bombs (skill1=240) ranged ) that schoot automatically at the opponent (unlike nades). and with auto-attack i also mean number 1 skills (not blunderbuss enabled as auto-attack for example). I should have been more clear.

The damage of the 3 autoattacks i was talking about is completely fine, it’s just that the way the burning of flamejet is applied is complete rubbish. waiting 2 seconds at such a close range to apply a large part of the damage with a high probability that the last tick will miss (losing burning damage).

Surely you can see that the flamejet was ment for balanced builds with both power and condi damage? (the calculations show it) but in reality (due to crappy burn aplication) the flamejet cant excel with the stats it was meant to excel with. Flame jet should work similar to how fumigate works, why doesnt it ? Is there some sort of problem with the burning condition that makes this impossible? the cap at 9 stacks comes to mind

(edited by santenal.1054)

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Posted by: Andy Warhol.6250

Andy Warhol.6250

All i can say is…. torching your enemies just looks cool…

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Posted by: Phineas Poe.3018

Phineas Poe.3018

i was talking about ranged auto-attacks (i dont consider the max range of bombs (skill1=240) ranged ) that schoot automatically at the opponent (unlike nades). and with auto-attack i also mean number 1 skills (not blunderbuss enabled as auto-attack for example). I should have been more clear.

The flamethrower isn’t a ranged weapon either, but I digress.

The damage of the 3 autoattacks i was talking about is completely fine, it’s just that the way the burning of flamejet is applied is complete rubbish. waiting 2 seconds at such a close range to apply a large part of the damage with a high probability that the last tick will miss (losing burning damage).

Aside from getting a blast finisher on Flame Blast (which we’ve finally gotten), this is the most-requested change we’ve made to ArenaNet with regard to the flamethrower. Perhaps it’s in the pipeline for the expansion, but I doubt it.

Surely you can see that the flamejet was ment for balanced builds with both power and condi damage? (the calculations show it) but in reality (due to crappy burn aplication) the flamejet cant excel with the stats it was meant to excel with. Flame jet should work similar to how fumigate works, why doesnt it ? Is there some sort of problem with the burning condition that makes this impossible? the cap at 9 stacks comes to mind

It’s hard to argue that any kit isn’t meant for balanced builds with both power and condition damage when that’s kind of how the engineer is designed at its core. It’s why Celestial stats are as good as they are in WvW roaming and PvP, and it’s why Rabid builds are actually very good for soloing PvE content.

The problem with the flamethrower is that the only damage condition it has is burning, and there are so many other reliable ways to fit burning into your build without using the flamethrower at all. Compare this to the bomb kit which has confusion as well, or the grenade kit that has bleeding and poison. For both power- and condition-centric builds the flamethrower lags behind other options.

As it currently stands, the kit is really only good for swapping to Flame Blast for a little extra burst, getting a little extra CC with Air Vent, or using Smoke Vent as a safe stomp. Even despite the recent buffs the kit is very far away from being a mainstay kit.

[EG] Ethereal Guardians

(edited by Phineas Poe.3018)

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Posted by: santenal.1054

santenal.1054

i was talking about flame jet damage being for balanced builds not the ft kit. but anyways, i agree with you that the ft kit is not a “mainstay kit” (reason i somewhat dislike the juggernaut trait) and i agree with “there are so many other reliable ways to fit burning into your build without using the flamethrower at all” spamming flamejet all day just for the burning would make for crappy damage output.

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Posted by: ArrDee.2573

ArrDee.2573

So understanding that burning is one of the strongest conditions in the game and is the strongest condition that the Engineer has and is a condition where you build and gear around… you want to add permanent burning on a kit that already has a lot of burning, including long duration burst from the toolbelt… and you want all of this to function even without any kind of condition duration increase! Interesting!

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Posted by: santenal.1054

santenal.1054

“you want to add permanent burning ….without any kind of condition duration increase! Interesting!”

We are talking about changing how the application of the burning is determined (with the duration being left unchanged). untreated = max 1 sec of burning , not permanent burning as you seem to think.

(edited by santenal.1054)

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Posted by: Arantheal.7396

Arantheal.7396

yea, it will still be 1 sec of burning base duration, but now consider this:
FT #1 does 10% more dmg to burning targets.
Flamelegion runes do 7% more dmg to burning targets (and also come with a burn duration increase)
So equip runes of the flame-legion for an easy and permanent 17% dmg boost.
Additionally burning does 328 dmg/s with zero condi-dmg.
add the 30% duration increase and each flame-jet does 98 more dmg/s
sounds not much, eh?

So here we go:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fdAQJAqelUUpWrtbxzLseRCbBNqxAyJsBR2xh8xIGAA-T1hAABTqEUn9HIUPwXK/24EAAwDAwU1fIFgd7qA-w
This is the build I’m currently running for solo and small-scale roaming.
IP alone is already perma-burning, FT AA is perma-burning and with IA I even can enhance the pistol or EG AA to re-apply it quickly on 1k range.
Currently I apply my 2.5sec tick of burning once at the end of my AA.
do you really want to take away the last bit of counter-play my enemies have and let my AA deliver its full dps to all times? As of now, a smart player will dodge or generally avoid the last tick, while eating the others with retal up or trying to out-range the FT.
Even tho the FT i mediocre as it is currently, with burning delivered to each tick (which completely ignores armor) any opponent would be melted down by it quickly, unless they do the most kittened thing ever and stack on vitality like crazy.

Engineer is love, Engineer is life.

(edited by Arantheal.7396)

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Posted by: santenal.1054

santenal.1054

“FT AA is perma-burning” that one made me lol. You can spam flame jet all day because your enemies don’t fight back or something?

It’s obvious that in WVW (due to the many condi duration buffs with only small sacrifices) burning is really strong, maybe too strong. But this is mainly a problem in combination with incendiary powder and the low icd of the #6 of the rune of Balthazar. Changing flame jet will not suddenly make it worth your time spamming this skill all the time. Surely you guys can see that instantly applying several seconds of burning (with low icd) is way more powerful way to apply burning (leaving you time to do other stuff) then chasing your enemy with your flame jet?

(edited by santenal.1054)

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Posted by: Arantheal.7396

Arantheal.7396

“FT AA is perma-burning” that one made me lol. You can spam flame jet all day because your enemies don’t fight back or something?

So you laugh about your own imagination?
That actually made me lol.

No one said that you should run around spaming #1, what was said is that running around and spaming #1 already yields >100% uptime in that build. I thought people in general are able to comprehend written words, but I guess not, so lets explain it to you.
Look up on the OP again.
In this thread it is discussed whether or not to change the flamethrower AA to apply their burning duration not at the last tick, but in fractions for each tick. That means that no one would need to mindlessly spam #1 again to hope for the burning to go trough, they could deal 100% burning dmg with each tick of the AA quite effectively, making it actually quite dangerous for PvP or narrow areas in WvW.

Engineer is love, Engineer is life.

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Posted by: Gaaroth.2567

Gaaroth.2567

It seems people dont understand that we aim for the SAME burning damage but broken on each AA tick… nothing OP…

Tempest & Druid
Wat r u, casul?

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Posted by: Sylentir.8913

Sylentir.8913

I don’t see this happening solely because FT#1 deals 10% more damage to burning targets. If it applies a small amount of burning on each tick, that’s changes to just be 10% more damage period.

Would it be OP if overall burning uptime wasn’t changed much? Probably not. Would it entirely negate a mechanic that was introduced to make the #1 more interesting? Yes.

Talia Gallowglass [Few] ~ Sylvari Engineer Main
Ferguson’s Crossing

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Posted by: Arantheal.7396

Arantheal.7396

It seems people dont understand that we aim for the SAME burning damage but broken on each AA tick… nothing OP…

I guess everyone understands that quite well.
For me at least it doesn’t changes the issues I have with it.

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