Guild Wars 2

Someone explain to me why flamethrowers don’t apply burns unless you take incendiary powder which means you cant take juggernaut. Am I seriously going to have to put some sort of flaming rune into my flamethrower to burn people reliably?

No, the FT does apply burns, what you should ask is, why it does apply it at the end of the aa and not at the mere beginning?,like, our aa its not so impressive even when having the 10% bonus damage, and also, having a ball of fire that doesnt levae burns is silly too (and i know, its like that for balance the ft, but still, silly).

I wouldnt say no to 0,5-1s burn per autoattack tick. I dont think it would be overpowered. If you are power dmg, that little burn dmg would be barely noticeable and if you are condi, it would have to be balance so you can only get 1 stack of burn during its channel (maybe 2 stacks if you have like 100% condi duration) → short duration burns. And ofc applied to all targets not just 1. That would also help with condi engi pvp problem of ppl/clones constantly bodyblocking your skills when you want to kill that target with 1% hp.
But since it seems engi autoattacks are intentionally weaker (ok maybe not hammer) i dont see any changes here anytime soon.

FT deals 10 attacks over 2.5 seconds. Even a 0.5 second burn per attack makes for 5s worth of burning (over 3 seconds, which means it’s burstier). With 100% burn duration, that’s now 10s equivalent. 1s per tick with 100% duration is a disgusting 20s worth of burning over 3.5s. That would exist under far less investment then any other burn focused build. Such a change would upset balance with the other burn capabilities engineer has.

You would need 1/4s durations which would still provide 100% uptime base, but not get ridiculous when other factors are added.

I really wish kits – or maybe even weapons as a whole – would get a bit more specializing.

For example with the Flamethrower I imagine a weapon which, in addition to dealing medium damage, sets the ground on fire for 6 seconds.
Both standing in the fire stream from the FT and standing in the ground then have the very same effect, applying burning as long as a target is in it.

The burning shouldn’t be too deadly, rather sweeping the Flamethrower would allow to quickly set large swaths on fire, denying area.

Ghotistyx.6942:

FT deals 10 attacks over 2.5 seconds. Even a 0.5 second burn per attack makes for 5s worth of burning (over 3 seconds, which means it’s burstier). With 100% burn duration, that’s now 10s equivalent. 1s per tick with 100% duration is a disgusting 20s worth of burning over 3.5s. That would exist under far less investment then any other burn focused build. Such a change would upset balance with the other burn capabilities engineer has.

You would need 1/4s durations which would still provide 100% uptime base, but not get ridiculous when other factors are added.

It took me a while to digest your math — I have to agree now that I understand your “5s worth of burning over 3s” remark.

This suggestion of burning applied per attack tick would require the total attack count to be reduced. This would be a popular change due to the retribution boon effects alone.

I think it’s worth noting that other classes have some sever burn application. For comparison purposes, the Elementalist Scepter-1 attack applies 3 seconds of burning over a 1 second attack (unbuffed). That can easily reach 5s with buffs.

juno.1840:

Ghotistyx.6942:

FT deals 10 attacks over 2.5 seconds. Even a 0.5 second burn per attack makes for 5s worth of burning (over 3 seconds, which means it’s burstier). With 100% burn duration, that’s now 10s equivalent. 1s per tick with 100% duration is a disgusting 20s worth of burning over 3.5s. That would exist under far less investment then any other burn focused build. Such a change would upset balance with the other burn capabilities engineer has.

You would need 1/4s durations which would still provide 100% uptime base, but not get ridiculous when other factors are added.

It took me a while to digest your math — I have to agree now that I understand your “5s worth of burning over 3s” remark.

This suggestion of burning applied per attack tick would require the total attack count to be reduced. This would be a popular change due to the retribution boon effects alone.

I think it’s worth noting that other classes have some sever burn application. For comparison purposes, the Elementalist Scepter-1 attack applies 3 seconds of burning over a 1 second attack (unbuffed). That can easily reach 5s with buffs.

i think you ’d destroy the only not scrapper build avaible in spvp …

PierPiero.9142:

i think you ’d destroy the only not scrapper build avaible in spvp …

I didn’t suggest anything other than have fewer attacks in the chain for same damage. So maybe you can clarify your statement by answering these questions:

1. Are you saying Flame Thrower is a viable PvP build?

2. Are you saying that the FT #1 must have 10 attacks in 2.5 second duration?

3. Are you saying that adding burning per attack will destroy the build?

1s burning per hit. 3 stack burning cap for balance.

juno.1840:

PierPiero.9142:

i think you ’d destroy the only not scrapper build avaible in spvp …

I didn’t suggest anything other than have fewer attacks in the chain for same damage. So maybe you can clarify your statement by answering these questions:

1. Are you saying Flame Thrower is a viable PvP build?

2. Are you saying that the FT #1 must have 10 attacks in 2.5 second duration?

3. Are you saying that adding burning per attack will destroy the build?

1) yes ft with rabid can be quite viable for casual players , not for tournament. If you don’t want to play scrapper ,pistol pistol condi (rabid/wanderer ) with ft is the best alternative you have (perhaps the only one ) .
2) no it is not a must but for me it can be handy .
3) i am saying that if you lower the amount of burning it is a loss. I prefer to have it all on the last togegher , it seems to me easier to use

juno.1840:

PierPiero.9142:

i think you ’d destroy the only not scrapper build avaible in spvp …

I didn’t suggest anything other than have fewer attacks in the chain for same damage. So maybe you can clarify your statement by answering these questions:

1. Are you saying Flame Thrower is a viable PvP build?

2. Are you saying that the FT #1 must have 10 attacks in 2.5 second duration?

3. Are you saying that adding burning per attack will destroy the build?

If you leave the esports side, Condi engi its great in solo q, and ft its one of his main components to deal damage, pretty much you unload your pistol skills and sit in ft for fill the cd’s, also, hist toolbelt makeswonders if the nemy has no ways to cleanse it

I don’t think having all the burn in the last attack is easier to use at all. Maybe in the first…

Would rather see the current 10 hits of Flame Jet be reduced to 8 hits with ¼s Burning applied on each hit. If the cast time is reduced because of the reduced amount of hits, then no direct damage increase. If the cast time remains, then buff the direct damage of each tick by 24% to compensate for the 2 reduced hits.

You know with trait abilities that proc on hit you can make use of those multi little hits. From a PvP perspective….

With firearms you can take the heavy armor exploit to stack more vuln with more hits, and get more swiftness chances. (is there a cooldown even on the trait?) By default with firearms you apply bleeds on critical (again no cooldown mentioned). I suppose you could do sigil of earth, and you have much greater probability of stacking the bleed every 2 seconds if your hitting more in those two seconds. Plus with aforementioned firearms it lasts longer.

You can get a hybrid power / condi to work with the pinpoint distribution trait.

I always take IP over juggernaut, because with it, plus the FT tool belt, plus napalm and air blast, I can pretty much keep them burning for quite some time.

My personal build uses high might, and not much in condi damage, but still when I run I’ve got about 800 ish condi which is enough to mean the burning will impact those whom are better against my power leaning but weak against condi.

For PvP for fun try Rabid and Undead with firearms, elixr and scrapper. Then use FT, EG, elix B., and Mortar. Sigil Earth, And one of your choice (doom? Torment? Blood?)

If you want more power based build (which I think works better) do the above with leadership and Paladin. The leadership will keep your might at 25 or so, and your regen and protection will last a long time. Sigils change to blood and lightning probably. (your base damage without might is 300 or so due to the firearms precision trait, but normally will be running at 800)

shion.2084:

You know with trait abilities that proc on hit you can make use of those multi little hits. From a PvP perspective….

This is exactly what makes FT so good … not only do you get a reliable procing with a low crit rate, you also get it for your traits too. My build has 4 traits directly related to on-crit effects as well as 2 sigils.

Retal is definitely bad to encounter on FT auto but I don’t think it’s a reason for people to recommend a lower hit frequency. It’s all part of the challenge of using an FT.

I do find the burning at the end of the auto strange and annoying, but if you really want more burning, you can equip yourself to get it. You can also count on other people to bring burning as well, so I don’t see the need for any rework of the weapon to address the burning application from it.

If you leave the esports side, Condi engi its great in solo q, and ft its one of his main components to deal damage, pretty much you unload your pistol skills and sit in ft for fill the cd’s, also, hist toolbelt makeswonders if the nemy has no ways to cleanse it

Problem of condi engi is that you have terrible condition removal. You can switch elixir S with elixir C against condition based team but you lose a lot of survivability and escape. Another solution can be to give up with toolkit and play pistol pistol with ft, elixir C, elixir S and mortar … you can kill a necro but it is hard to go against a warrior for example .
Condi engi can be great if you are luck to find the right opponent team… otherwise it can be an hell ( for example against 2 necro or condi warriors or good condi mesmer or condi ranger)

I beg to differ on that point. Engis have access to many ways to remove conditions; terrible isn’t really a fair description.

The Alchemy line gives lots of condition mitigation, as well as Elixer skills and condition reducers from other sources.

Obtena.7952:

I beg to differ on that point. Engis have access to many ways to remove conditions; terrible isn’t really a fair description.

The Alchemy line gives lots of condition mitigation, as well as Elixer skills and condition reducers from other sources.

without scrapper at least in spvp the only weakness i feel on engi is condition cleaning.
Alchemy (alone without invention ) is quite situational : every 15 secs you clean “incoming” conditions. If a necro has already resend you all conditions they don’t get clean . With invention you have a +1 condition removed when you use an heal skill . For healing turret you arrive at 9 condi cleans for a minute, not bad but not great . The great advantages of scrapper are that you have a block on weapon , so you can avoid to take toolkit for example take elixir C ( i prefer it to gyro ) or purge gyro and that you don’t need an offensive trait. If you play without scrapper you have to take firearms or explosive and 2 between alchemy invention ,tools. if you don’t take tools you have a great loss of dps , if you don’t take alchemy you lose elixirs utility (cd reduction and might) and if you don’t take invention you are weaker to condi damage . The ideal build is alchemy ,invention + something else, but with condi and ft losing tools is an heavy loss …

Well, you are making specific scenarios to prove your point. The fact is that if you want condition removal, you have it in spades. That’s not a ‘terrible’ condition removal situation for engi. You don’t even need to trait Alchemy if you want protection against conditions, I’m simply pointing out it’s exceptional at doing such.

If you don’t trait Alchemy + Invention, you need to dedicate a skill slot to cleansing condi or else you are very weak vs condi builds.

I would gladly trade my elite skill for another regular skill slot so I could bring elixir C or Purge Gyro. Unfortunately, we can’t do that.

so back on the topic of burns on auto…

10 attacks over 2.5 sec is 4 attacks per sec. if you gave each attack a 1 sec burn, you can maintain a 4 stack of burn. a 4 stack of burn is gonna be around 2k dps with high might and near full condi damage investment. if you also max out burn duration, that can double to 4k dps.

when you think about it, there’s actually room to put the base duration at something more like 1.5 secs before you start surpassing the dps that a simple open world flamethrower camping power build does.

of course, in a pvp mode, having a condi that refreshes every .25 secs is extremely annoying and unfun to play against, cuz you can’t build a toughness equivalent to help yourself survive against a condi you can’t clear, and an autoing condi engi would be about the same thing as a reaper permanently using shroud 4. you might have fun burninating with perma stab, but your opponent won’t have fun dealing with it unless it does so little damage that you can’t kill them, the way toughness kittens over power flamethrower builds.

coro.3176:

If you don’t trait Alchemy + Invention, you need to dedicate a skill slot to cleansing condi or else you are very weak vs condi builds.

I would gladly trade my elite skill for another regular skill slot so I could bring elixir C or Purge Gyro. Unfortunately, we can’t do that.

That doesn’t mean engineer condition cleansing is terrible. Maybe you don’t play other classes but dedicating a slot for a cleansing condition skill isn’t actually some exceptional thing.

Back on topic, I really doubt Anet would ever consider giving much more burning to AA … there has to be a reason burning was put on the end of the AA in the first place.

Problem with Engi is that it needs its skill slots more than other classes need theirs. Ele, for example, can get away with slotting a condi clear skill because its damage and utility weapon skills (x4) don’t take up any skill slots. Engi’s kits do the same, but they do take up skill slots.

As for burning at the end, I’m guessing they did that so you can’t apply burn and then cancel/swap to pistol 4 for more stacks + FT toolbelt skill + IP. They’re probably trying to limit the stacks of burn you can apply in a short time period.

Engis have more access to useable skills than most classes do because skills have double duty through the F keys, including the condition removal ones. I mean, yes there are classes that have more, but to say Engis have terrible condi removal, I’m just not buying it.