Guild Wars 2

II: TRAITS

I’ve today (5/19/14) gone back to the old trait format. Unfortunately due to character limits on posts I had to do this. Sorry for any confusion.

Full DPS Build (6/6/0/X/X)

Useful Skills:

• Healing Turret (Heal)
• Grenade Kit
• Elixir Gun
• Bomb Kit
• Throw Mine
• Rifle Turret
• Supply Crate (Elite)

Summary: Best used for maxing out vulnerability stacks for your party with the Grenade Kit and integrating a few blast finishers and fire fields to contribute might stacking with the Bomb Kit. Use the Elixir Gun for its stunbreaker and additional DPS from Acid Bomb. Fumigate/Super Elixir for condi removal support. In a group where might stacking is covered, swap in Throw Mine for additional vulnerability stacking with its toolbelt or Rifle Turret for Static Discharge’s natural synergy with Surprise Shot.

Explosives: Take Forceful Explosives (III) to increase the radius of your bombs and mines. For Mine Field this is especially fruitful, as you will see a bigger damage return and better vulnerability stacking from it. This also expands the radius of your fire field in Fire Bomb, making this setup a little more friendly for any inaccurate blast finishers. Take Explosive Powder (VII) to buff the damage of your explosives another 10%. Take Grenadier (XI) as your GM trait, increasing the range of your volleys as well as adding a third grenade into the mix. With Steel-Packed Powder (GM Minor) you will be able to stack 3 vulnerability per volley with this trait.

Firearms: Precise Sights (V) is taken to help stack more vulnerability, especially through the Grenade Kit’s toolbelt skill: Grenade Barrage. Take Rifle Mod (IX) to heighten the damage output of Blunderbuss and Jump Shot. Modified Ammo (XI) is the GM trait here. Because of the number of conditions you’ll be putting out between your bombs and grenades, this will substantially increase your personal DPS.

The final two points can go into either Alchemy or Tools. Depending on content and group comp you are expected to regularly swap between these trait lines. Because trait respecs are 100% free, there’s no reason not to take advantage of this!

Alchemy: Invigorating Speed (I) is the trait to be taken here, providing you access to vigor on swiftness. To best proc this ability, I suggest swapping out a trait in Firearms to Infused Precision (III). Two points into Alchemy will also add more duration to your boons, which helps maintain might stacks for your party.

Tools: Static Discharge (II) or Speedy Gadgets (III) are the primary traits taken here, and are taken based of what skills you’re primarily wielding. If taking all three kits—the Bomb Kit, Grenade Kit, and Elixir Gun—run Static Discharge to eke a little extra damage out of your toolbelt activations. If running Throw Mine as a third utility, however, the reduced cooldown will provide you a 14.5 second blast finisher.

Fractal Reflect/Carry Build (6/2/6/0/0)

Summary: This build should be taken only if running with a group that is having a hard time in mid- to high-level FOTM and needs additional projectile blocks and support. Rotating between the Healing Turret, Rifle Turret, and Elixir U will stack, if done properly, around 28 seconds of reflect uptime.

Useful Skills:

• Healing Turret (Heal)
• Grenade Kit
• Rifle Turret
• Elixir Gun
• Elixir U
• Elixir R
• Supply Crate (Elite)

Explosives: Take traits that will help maximize your contributions with the Grenade Kit: Shrapnel (II), Explosive Powder (VII), and Grenadier (XI).

Firearms: Run Precise Sights (V) to help maintain vulnerability stacks for your party. Swap this out for Fireforged Trigger (I) if fighting Mai Trin or other condition heavy bosses and you need the quicker cooldowns on Super Elixir and Fumigate. This is also extremely useful with Acid Bomb, turning it into a 12 second blast finisher if your group is poor at stacking might.

Inventions: Take Cloaking Device (VI) to help survive against Lava Elementals’ immobilization if you have a bad guardian in your group. Take Fortified Turrets (XIII) so that they help reflect projectiles. Your third trait is optional, but I like Reinforced Shield (VII) if taking that with me (which I will do if a group is doing THAT bad). You may also take Energized Armor (V) for the additional damage boost.

III: SKILLS

Though I’ve provided suggested utilities for each of the builds listed above, I did want to at least go over the extent of the different utility skills worth using as an engineer. There are some kits like the flamethrower that are situationally useful, as well as some elixirs and gadgets too.

Kits

Bomb Kit: Your “melee” DPS kit. Has the most powerful auto-attack, making it a better choice than any to spam when your more damaging skills are on cooldown. Especially useful given that it also provides a smoke field for skipping content and a fire field for stacking might. Make certain to use Fire Bomb every time it’s up, and use Glue Bomb for Sitting Duck.

Grenade Kit: Your “ranged” DPS kit. Best used for stacking vulnerability on targets, but is also a better choice during the few token fights in this game that you are forced to fight at ranged. Very useful in Harpy Fractal, as well. Shrapnel Grenade and Freeze Grenade will be the majority of your DPS. The #1 skill is not much to write home about except for its 3 vulnerability per volley.

Flamethrower: Best used with Juggernaut for when you’re forced to face-tank content like standing on a button in dredge fractal. Also very useful when doing Arah path 1. FT is perhaps the best weapon choice in the game across all classes for tanking Shoggroth given its burning application and natural tankiness.

Elixir Gun: Your main support kit. Provides a stunbreaker. Cleanses 1 condition and provides small healing through super elixir. Fumigate cleanses 5 conditions on allies every 12 seconds. Make a point to use acid bomb often, as it is a blast finisher and does a significant amount of damage. Swapping to your elixir gun and firing it off contributes to more DPS than just sitting in your bomb kit or grenade kit.

Tool Kit: Used quite frequently in dredge fractal for the 1200 range pull in the button room. Gear shield is also the bee’s knees.

Healing Skills

Healing Turret: Good group heal. Good condition removal. Useful for stacking might before battle with its blast finisher.

Med Kit: Superior self-heal. Decent condition removal. Drop stimulant grants good duration swiftness and fury.

A.E.D.: Useful for spike healing when you know you’re going to take inevitable damage. Especially useful in fights like Lupi and Mai Trin. Be mindful for the lack of condition removal, though.

Elixir H: Don’t take this.

Elixirs

Elixir S: Use for targeted area stealth through Toss Elixir S, which stacks independently of blast finisher stealth (meaning you can go over the 15-second cap with this). Also acts as a stunbreaker with 3-second invulnerability when consumed. It’s really good for Harpy/Dredge/Arah stealth runs.

Elixir C: Use for additional condition removal/conversion as needed. Especially useful for dungeons/fractals that have a lot of necromancer wells. Toss Elixir C grants additional condition conversion for yourself and allies you hit within its radius.

Elixir R: Use for targeted area revive through tossed Elixir R. Consuming Elixir R also grants an endurance refill. Not used much by me these days, but still routinely helpful.

Elixir U: Toss Elixir U offers a projectile wall. Elixir U grants quickness when consumed, though at a cost of either reduced armor or reduced Endurance regeneration. Also acts as a stunbreaker. Very useful for burst damage (i.e., gate controller in CoF p1).

Elixir B: Use for targeted area stability through tossed Elixir B. The boons when consumed are interesting but uneventful.

Gadgets & Turrets

Rifle Turret: My go-to blast finisher skill with the bomb kit. Its toolbelt, surprise shot, also offers a reasonable addition in DPS and operates as a projectile finisher. One of our best toolbelt skills to use with static discharge.

Thumper Turret: Offers 3 blast finishers in one slot, making it an ideal choice for stealth stacking with smoke bomb. Because of the long cooldown, it is inefficient for might stacking. Remember to “charge” the turret before detonating to get both blast finishers.

Rocket Boots: Cures immobilized, crippled, and chilled on use. Also operates as a blast finisher. Useful at times for a stealth escape with smoke bomb, but not much else in PvE. A fun mobility option in open world.

Throw Mine: Also is a blast finisher, but more useful for its boon stripping and knockback ability. Its toolbelt skill can stack a decent amount of vulnerability if positioned in a bottleneck, but in open field has too large a spread to be used effectively. Best used in “stacking” dungeons like CM and CoE.

IV: EQUIPMENT

Your weapons, trinkets, and armor should all be ascended Berserker gear. This is the maximum DPS possible for dungeons and fractals, and engineers have enough tools up their sleeve to survive efficiently with it. Take Superior Runes of Strength given the engineer’s ability to swim in might with the bomb kit.

Note: Celestial ascended armor is viable but not ideal. Expect about a 20% DPS loss wearing Celestial armor over Berserker armor. Do not ever wear Celestial weapons or trinkets.

For weapons I suggest:

• Rifle with Sigil of Force and Night
• Rifle with Sigil of Force and Energy
• Pistol with sigil of choice
• Shield with sigil of choice

When it comes to food, condition duration is best. I know that sounds weird because this is a power-centric build, but bosses in Guild Wars 2 have a buff called Defiant. Defiant halves the duration of your vulnerability stacks, so you must compensate accordingly by stacking some amount of condition duration. Koi Cake is probably the most reasonable in cost. If you can afford it, I suggest pairing your food with Toxic consumables for their additional 10% condition duration. Either the Oil or Sharpening Stone is fine.

V: GAMEPLAY TIPS AND TRICKS

Stacking Stealth

One of the best aspects of playing the engineer is having access to a smoke field. We’re, in fact, the only class except for thieves that have a functioning smoke field that works outside of the water. Combined with our ability to slot so many blast finishers on our bar, that means we can self-stack 15 seconds of stealth for our group in areas like Dredge Fractal, Twilight Arbor, and Arah.

Doing this is a lot simpler than it sounds, and really is only dependent on a few utilities: the bomb kit, the thumper turret, and Elixir S. Take the bomb kit for the smoke field, and the thumper turret as it gives 3 blast finishers in a single slot. Toss Elixir S provides an additional 5 seconds of stealth, which is an added cushion if you’re a little slower when it comes to blasting your finishers. To get a better idea of how it works, here’s a rotation below:

1. Equip the bomb kit
2. Place Healing Turret and Thumper Turret
3. Activate Thump (overcharge)
4. Place Smoke Bomb and Big Ol’ Bomb
5. Detonate your turrets/mines
6. Use Rumble (tool belt)
7. Use Toss Elixir S

Note: Use Thump first to prime the turret. This will make it set off two blast finishers when you use it after Smoke Bomb.

This is not the only way to get 15 seconds of stealth as an engineer, but I think it’s the most efficient. It’s true the shield has its own blast finisher, but I prefer taking the rifle as I can use Jump Shot for added mobility.

This is also really great against Mai Trin in fractals. When stealthed during the bombardment phase, you will not be attacked. Thieves are much better at this than we are, but hey: we still contribute.

Stacking Might

To stack might we generally go in the same way as we would to stack stealth. Every blast finisher in a fire field results in 3 stacks of might that last 20 seconds. Fire Bomb has an 8 second cooldown with Short Fuse, so use this to your advantage. A sample rotation below is provided wielding a turret as your third utility with the bomb kit and elixir gun.

1. Place Rifle Turret & Healing Turret
2. Drop Big Ol’ Bomb and Fire Bomb
3. Detonate Rifle Turret & Healing Turret
4. Swap to Elixir Gun -> Acid Bomb

Note: Big Ol’ Bomb does knockback targets you might be stacked against a corner to kill. Proper placement is very important.

This rotation provides 12 stacks of might every 20 seconds. It is, similar to the stealth rotation, not the only way to achieve might stacking for your group, but I find it most effective. Thumper Turret is incredibly useful since it offers 3 blast finishers in one slot, but understand that it has a considerably long cooldown.

Though this rotation can be done with other rune sets, I highly recommend wearing Superior Runes of Strength. With this rune set, you can easily maintain these 12 stacks of might for your party, as each stack you apply lasts 28 seconds. This effectively turns Big Ol’ Bomb into a sustainable blast finisher. Without it, this rotation is much less effective.

I believe it is generally accepted Assassins is a bad stat choice as Berserker is superior in any situation you want those 3 stats.

I am planning for a similar build with all celestial gear. I really like the on-the-fly flexibility.
One more thing you may consider for your utilities is Throw Mine, especially when running increased bomb radius: short cooldown blast finisher, nice damage and most importantly boon stripping for those pesky protection stacking dredge.

GOSU.9574:

I believe it is generally accepted Assassins is a bad stat choice as Berserker is superior in any situation you want those 3 stats.

Some people prefer the Precision. I don’t think either is a bad option, but I personally run Berserker myself.

I think the best build for engineer imho is HGH build. Good for PvE and WvW. I dont play sPVP because of the lag.

All PVT gear (with might or boon duration mixed runes) with PVT trinkets and. Elixirs to stack might for grenade. I believe that engineer is actually the true condition giving king. You can single handedly give 6 different kinds of conditions and stack vulnerability and might of at least 20 on your own.

That’s gonna be the meta-build for sure.
I have a question regarding weapons stats. I’m not sure if berserker weapons increase kits damage, I think it doesn’t. So giver’s weapons seem best option. Am I wrong?

If they introduce kits scaling with ascended weapons that is going to be out of question, tho.

Also about sigils… Strenght or battle will increase both direct and condition damage, looks like a better option to me.

And finally, I’m not convinced that bomb kit outdamges grenade kit.

Thanks for you post anyway.

Ryn.6459:

That’s gonna be the meta-build for sure.
I have a question regarding weapons stats. I’m not sure if berserker weapons increase kits damage, I think it doesn’t. So giver’s weapons seem best option. Am I wrong?

Of course the stats from your weapon increase your damage. If you mean the weapon damage itself, then no, kits have their own “weapon damage” which is 969 at lvl 80. Still, for a power based build, 188 power and 10% crit damage scale better than 20% condi duration.

If they introduce kits scaling with ascended weapons that is going to be out of question, tho.

I wish they would.

Also about sigils… Strenght or battle will increase both direct and condition damage, looks like a better option to me.

If your group can stack 25 might (not really hard to achieve) then these sigils are useless. For solo open world they are nice.

And finally, I’m not convinced that bomb kit outdamges grenade kit.

Thanks for you post anyway.

Let us assume a a power value of ~3000 (not hard to achieve with power equipment and some might stacks) and opponent’s armor of 2600, so base damage values will be:
Bomb: 1537 (including 10% for explosive powder)
BoB: 2091 (including 10% for explosive powder, 30 seconds cooldown)
Grenade: 369 × 3 = 1107
Shrapnel Grenade: 615 × 3 = 1845 (4 seconds cooldown)
Freeze Grenade: 559 × 3 = 1677 (16 seconds cooldown)
Grenade Barrage: 419 × 7 = 2933 (30 seconds cooldown)
For an average fight of 30 seconds this sums up to a total damage of 46664 for the bomb kit (1x BoB, 29 x Bomb) and 30272 (1x Barrage, 2x Freeze, 7x Shrapnel, 10x Grenade).
Now if you add modifiers like vulnerability, +% crit damage, Target the Maimed, Modified Ammo, +% damage sigil/potion and group buffs as warrior banner, quickness (increases ratio of autoattacks vs. cooldowns) or Frost Spirit, all of which do not affect condition damage, the damage difference of 16392 between Bombs and Grenades will easily triple. This is almost impossible to catch up through conditions.

Ryn.6459:

And finally, I’m not convinced that bomb kit outdamges grenade kit.

In terms of direct damage, it absolutely does.

Honestly, there is an easy way to test that. 2 ways are to go to the mist. go to the golems. go to the largest golem and kill it 10 times with your grenade build and 10 times with your bomb build (golems have a static respawn time so respawn stays consistent either way) Bombs will kill the golem 10 times in a shorter amount of time then you can kill the same golem 10 times with grenades.

Also you can go to the NPC models of each profession in the mist and time your kills on each of them. You can pretty much face tank each of them so it is fairly consistent.

Another way is to go WvW and test kill times on guards, they do not move around.

There are many mobs in the world you can pick and use to test it. You will discover that with honest effort in both kits, that bombs will kill them first.

I collaborated some of my test with Bloodgruve, as well as GuanglaiKangyi and his damage spread sheets.

But don’t take my word for it. I challenge every engineer out there to test the two kits for themselves. We can never have to much input on this.

Sorry to quote your response in two different posts but I also saw another thing you said that I want to respond to.

Ryn.6459:

Also about sigils… Strenght or battle will increase both direct and condition damage, looks like a better option to me.

I’ve used Sigil of Strength in the past. It was great when Might stacking wasn’t so common. Hell, I still think it’s left there on my FT/EG build on ITM. But now that LH Elementalists are everywhere, and now that Guardians are using Purging Flames and Hallowed Ground all the time, Might is too easy to compile.

You’re better off focusing on +damage, as having Sigil of Night + 25 Might is better than 25 Might alone. I don’t want to get in a static vs. pug argument; I understand that not every group will have an Ele and Guardian built precisely for Might stacking. But ideally a build should be constructed and advertised to maximize the potential of the class for all group compositions. And I think running Night/Force is the ideal composition that doesn’t result in wasted Might stacks.

coglin.1867:

I collaborated some of my test with Bloodgruve, as well as GuanglaiKangyi and his damage spread sheets.

You don’t really need spreadsheets. Just look at the damage coefficients. Bomb scales by 125% of your Power. Grenade scales by 33% (x3 with Grenadier). Shrapnel Grenade and Freeze Grenade do significantly better damage, but it doesn’t average out to more direct damage than the Bomb Kit.

Now as for Bleeding…

I do not personally use spread sheets. I believe in what happens in actual use, and that is how I test. But you know well, that you cannot mention or involve GK and not have a spreadsheet involved from him.

Actually I PMed Blood weeks ago asking for his claim of engis being able to 14K dps.
So I tested bomb Vs greandes on indestructible golem. I killed faster with nades. I assumed that if you get vulnerabilty from other players then maybe bomb do more damage. That is why I said that I am not convinced. I also recall Knox in the famous 8K aa bomb build saying that nades are better.

Also, and sorry to ask this as should be obvius: will I do more direct dmage with nade kit if I have a berserker weapon than a givers one?

i think whether or not bomb does more damage is not really the point. Grenades are much more versatile. Even if bomb kit does more damage, but the fact that you are standing so close to the mobs means you need to have good armour and vitality. And this will make your bomb kit weak. Using grenades means you can attack from a distance, put out a lot of condition damage, stack vulnerability like a boss, put out heaps of might and yet providing your allies massive support from F1,F2,F3 from elixir. Alot of people think engineers are crap in dungeons. If you play HGH/grenades setup, an engineer is extremely useful to have.

I can tell you rangers are useless lot in dungeon. I have one and i feel myself useless with my guild members in dungeons.

Nope. No problems melee-ing here on zerker armor.

Try to equip sword and warhorn on your ranger with spotter, frost spirit and zerker gear.

But I agree, engi is the best ranged profession. Melee is always better tho.

lchan.2169:

Even if bomb kit does more damage, but the fact that you are standing so close to the mobs means you need to have good armour and vitality.

I’ve always been a tried-and-true FT/EG guy, but since they buffed bombs to have 240 radius I’ve ran the kit in pretty much every dungeon and fractal. There is not one fight in this game I have to use the Grenade Kit. For the longest time everyone said that you had to for stuff during Grawl Shaman. People recommend using the Grenade Kit because three grenades are supposed to count for three hits to drop his shield.

This actually isn’t the case. One grenade volley counts for one attack, and the attack time for grenades is slightly longer than bombs. So using bombs will knock him out of his shield faster, and Glue Bomb helps through Immobilize.

I’m still trying to find reasons why I need to use the Grenade Kit, but I generally only take it when Vulnerability stacking is a problem. Like Guardians shying away from AH/EM, I think Engineers need to stop using the Grenade Kit with 1500 range as a crutch and actually learn attack rotations of bosses.

I try to use nades at mellee range, besides getting the.buffs from party, is more easy to aim properly.

After patch hits, I will put more time on bomb kit. lets see how it goes.

Nice build anyway, I’l probably move from 30/5/0/10/25 to this when the class change hits. I’m just a bit scared to lose 25% crit dmg and 10% dmg when full endu.

Just bumping this thread up. Really looking forward to Dec 10th

johnsonade.9547:

Just bumping this thread up. Really looking forward to Dec 10th

Me too, man. Been running with this trait distro for the past couple weeks.

I’m now OK without Speedy Kits.

I have been running these builds with celestial gear and have found that there is almost no diffrence between direct bomb damage and direct granade damage, bomb is slightly higher, but the massive bleed damage that you can inflict with grenades makes them with celestial gear the better choise for max damage.

Im looking forward to the next patch and see how the damage balance will be effected.

edgewalker.2903:

I have been running these builds with celestial gear and have found that there is almost no diffrence between direct bomb damage and direct granade damage, bomb is slightly higher, but the massive bleed damage that you can inflict with grenades makes them with celestial gear the better choise for max damage.

Im looking forward to the next patch and see how the damage balance will be effected.

Bleed damage from grenade #2 is nice, but it has some limits:
- skill cooldown
- bleed stack limit
- gets overwritten by others
- does not run for full length because it gets cleaned, reduced in length (WvW) or target dies (mostly PvE)

For max. damage it’s best to use both kits, grenades for #2, #4 and barrage, bombs for autoattack. Of course this means 1 utility slot less for other things…

One thing to keep in mind is that although Bomb kit does more personal dps, you might see an increase to overall team dps if you just camp nades for the extra vuln stacks.

Party makeup is important when picking a build also. If there someone else stacking Vulnerability I’ll usually go bombs. If you’re the stacker then Grenades is prolly better for the group.

I’ve been running this same build for a while, also in anticipation of the Dec10th update. I’ve gone with Rifle/Healing Turret/Thumper Turret/Grenade Kit/Bomb Kit. My gear is Zerker with 60% Might duration on runes. I run this to stack 12-15 Might and ~18 Vulnerability. I’ve been running some speed runs while being the main Might n Vulnerability stacker, pugs have actually thanked me on a couple occasions…

Thumper Turret has 3x blast finishers which is great but their on a longer cooldown then Rifle Turret and Shield.

Great write up Phineas.

Blood~

I’ve been getting a lot of PMs/whispers related to dropping Speedy Kits, so I’m going to just copypasta here the reasoning behind this from a PM I had just typed up. Also a little stuff regarding combos, in case you need to understand that end more.

Hey there, thanks for messaging me.

Combo fields and finishers are pretty cool, and perhaps the one area where Engineer shines best. We do, after all, have the most combo fields of any class and the largest access to blast finishers.

Really, the only three fields you need to concern yourself with in PvE are Fire, Water, and Smoke. You get a fire field from Fire Bomb, a Water field from Healing Turret, and a Smoke field from Smoke Bomb. Each of these produce different effects depending on the finisher used.

There are some exclusions to the rule, but generally speaking, blast finishers are AoE buffs while Leap finishers are selfish buffs. Detonating a blast finisher in a Water field, for example, will heal everyone in the vicinity near me. A leap finisher, however, will only heal myself.

I suggest reading up on combos (http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Combo) on the Wiki for the overall list of how these things operate, but ideally you will be concerned with using blast finishers in fire fields when wielding the Bomb Kit.

RE: Speedy Kits, I will be removing it from my build because of the “nerf.” They’re elevating its duration to 10 seconds, but this also means it will have a 10 second internal cooldown. That means it won’t work well with Invigorating Speed anymore, which will only give 5 seconds of Vigor every 10 seconds with this change. Do not be dissuaded, however, as the change to Power Shoes in the Inventions tree changes this, giving us a 25% movement speed increase all the time. I believe 20 points in Inventions will be a major investment for PvP/WvW builds come December 10, especially with what all is being done with Elixir-Infused Bombs.

Hope this helps!

Bloodgruve.6038:

My gear is Zerker with 60% Might duration on runes. I run this to stack 12-15 Might and ~18 Vulnerability. I’ve been running some speed runs while being the main Might n Vulnerability stacker, pugs have actually thanked me on a couple occasions…

How did you feel the damage was compared to Scholar? I was thinking about posting it as an alternate, but with so many LH Eles out there, I want to make sure that players are getting the most bang for their buck (and not getting stacks overwritten).

Hoelbrak/Fire/Strength is a significantly cheaper alternative, too.

Wait powershoes is going to be a speed buff at all times now? I only saw changes in inventions for :

Energized Armor
Autotool Installation

“Power Shoes. Will now function outside of combat.”

Sauce: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Dec-10th-Balance-Preview-Updated-Nov-6th/first

Elevating this for those who might’ve missed.

Thus far I’m pretty satisfied with the new setup. I’ve been seeing some pretty ridiculous auto-attacks with my Celestial/Traveler gear. I haven’t ran many dungeons since the patch so I cannot say how good it is there with Berserker/Scholar.

I’ve actually swapped out Infused Precision for Fireforged Trigger in most content. I’m beginning to find that Vigor isn’t really all that necessary since a lot of classes provide AoE Vigor these days in their own “meta” builds. Sigil of Energy is also a viable option, freeing you up two traits to take, and to even perhaps slot 10 Tools instead of 10 Alchemy, which would result in a large damage increase than just Force anyway (with the traits included). This would also eliminate the need for Traveler runes, so I might post that as an alternative. More testing is needed before I do that, though.

Phineas Poe.3018:

How did you feel the damage was compared to Scholar? I was thinking about posting it as an alternate, but with so many LH Eles out there, I want to make sure that players are getting the most bang for their buck (and not getting stacks overwritten).

Hoelbrak/Fire/Strength is a significantly cheaper alternative, too.

On a personal level its hard to move away from scholar but very few pugs do any might/vulnerability stacking so I feel it does speed things up. It can be a real help to the party but it can also be rendered useless if people are throwing random fields. Communication is important especially in pugs. I love hammer guards except in this situation…

Blood~

So if you did take sigil of energy and speedy kits, what would you second sigil most likely be?

zaragoz.6351:

So if you did take sigil of energy and speedy kits, what would you second sigil most likely be?

Well, I run the rifle … but if taking a shield or off-hand pistol, I suppose Force/Night/Whatever is suitable.

I’ve ran a Sigil of Energy rifle through a couple dungeons and a guild Tequatl kill today.

Taking the 10 Tools alternative is totally safe. Especially since you’re likely swapping after every Fire Bomb to either your elixir gun or rifle, your endurance uptime is just as good as it is with vigor.

I’ll be updating the OP with a 10 Tools variant tomorrow morning. Enjoy!

Hard decision to leave Tools for Firearms, I’m still playing with my 30/10///30 or 25/15///30 because I like the handiness of having both damage and endurance regen in the same traitline.
I tried a bit of 30/30 but can’t get used to either losing speedy kits or having subpar endurance regen and losing a potential +10% dmg sigil for +10% crit dmg doesn’t make much sense to me. Sigils are there to give your class an extra edge in my opinion, not replace a missing trait.

I’ll keep playing tools for now but I’m open to discussions since these changes made me question my build somehow.

Krag.6210:

I tried a bit of 30/30 but can’t get used to either losing speedy kits or having subpar endurance regen and losing a potential +10% dmg sigil for +10% crit dmg doesn’t make much sense to me. Sigils are there to give your class an extra edge in my opinion, not replace a missing trait.

That’s a fair criticism, but even without Sigil of Night/Force I’m doing more damage than I ever did on my Engineer.

Phineas Poe.3018:

I’m doing more damage than I ever did on my Engineer.

I don’t know, I just did a few coe runs and didn’t feel the difference THAT much, I did feel the increase crit chance though, I was playing 30/30///10 with Sigil of the Night so no endu regen.

With 30/30/0/0/10, I have
53% crit chance
88% crit dmg
+5% dmg
potential +24% dmg but averages more around 10% with my group comp

With 30/10/0/0/30
44% crit chance
108% crit dmg
+10% dmg when full endu

I’m not very good with maths so no idea what to do with all that or how to compare them damage wise.

@Krag:
Your conclusion sir, awesome!

Assassin.7890:

@Krag:
Your conclusion sir, awesome!

That wasn’t a conclusion though, I’m only trying to figure out what works best.
I could just copy any build I find that says “meta” but I like understanding it first.

Krag.6210:

Phineas Poe.3018:

I’m doing more damage than I ever did on my Engineer.

I don’t know, I just did a few coe runs and didn’t feel the difference THAT much, I did feel the increase crit chance though, I was playing 30/30///10 with Sigil of the Night so no endu regen.

With 30/30/0/0/10, I have
53% crit chance
88% crit dmg
+5% dmg
potential +24% dmg but averages more around 10% with my group comp

With 30/10/0/0/30
44% crit chance
108% crit dmg
+10% dmg when full endu

I’m not very good with maths so no idea what to do with all that or how to compare them damage wise.

Maths (results rounded)

30/30/0/0/10
+138% crit damage @ 53%(73%) chance equals an average damage increase of 73%(101%)
Target the Maimed 5%
Modified Ammunition 0-24%, assuming 10%
Total modifier: 1.73 × 1.05 × 1.1 = 2 (or 2.3 with fury)

30/10/0/0/30
+158% crit damage @ 44%(64%) chance equals an average damage increase of 66%(101%)
Enduring Damage 10%
Total modifier: 1.66 × 1.1 = 1.8 (or 2.2 with fury)

On paper Modified Ammo wins. If you can increase crit chance further (warrior banner, spotter ranger, food, stacking sigil buff) the difference will become smaller.

Whenever you have to dodge, and/or hit targets you cannot crit on but can apply conditions to (e.g. dragons), MA will be better by a large margin. On structures that are immune to conditions ED will be better.

Krag.6210:

Thank you for that. It’s still kinda hard to decide, I wish Tools had something else than the useless Scope for Crit Chance.

I happen to like Speedy Gadgets when I’m running Rocket Boots. Blast finisher on a 16 second cooldown is pretty awesome.

To me it boiled down to having a rounded character/build. 30 in tools gives me a damage boost (Static Discharge, which might be added to the math done above), perma swiftness and 50% Endurance Regen (takes Vigor’s place without a prob IMO and for practical purposes). The 10% extra damage is icing on the cake.

30 in Firearms ‘only’ added damage, and this is where a rounded character comes in: personally, I only run with pugs. 25 Might? I have heard of this, I am sure it must be great. The same for Vulnerability and perma-Fury.

With this last patch I tried 30/30/0/10/0 with grenades and though I could see that there was a boost I found myself with the usual complaints (grenades not fit for all situations, no perma swiftness and a lack of ‘burst’ for open world situations (was still fiddling with Kessex at the time and some minor world exploration).

So I went for 30/10/0/0/30 and I am pleased. For those bosses/situations where I need to dodge a lot and can’t reliably be aiming grenades while moving out of red circles, I use the Rifle and SD (rifle turret, Battering Ram) which also gives me burst for low HP enemies where grenades slow lob is not as good. When the boss/situation allows it, or I want AoE (a small flaw with Rife/SD if we don’t want to melee and despite the SD’s bouncing) I switch to grenades and can lob them all day long from 1500 distance (or closer and make use of SD when I am reduced to using grenade #1) while my team contribution is stacking Vulnerability.

In the meanwhile, perma swiftness for my moving needs and endurance regeneration has been taken care of. I like it. It’s not min-maxed but for a puguer I got my buck got banged.

OP has been updated.

Kanto.1659:

With this last patch I tried 30/30/0/10/0 with grenades and though I could see that there was a boost I found myself with the usual complaints (grenades not fit for all situations, no perma swiftness and a lack of ‘burst’ for open world situations (was still fiddling with Kessex at the time and some minor world exploration).

So I went for 30/10/0/0/30 and I am pleased. For those bosses/situations where I need to dodge a lot and can’t reliably be aiming grenades while moving out of red circles, I use the Rifle and SD (rifle turret, Battering Ram) which also gives me burst for low HP enemies where grenades slow lob is not as good. When the boss/situation allows it, or I want AoE (a small flaw with Rife/SD if we don’t want to melee and despite the SD’s bouncing) I switch to grenades and can lob them all day long from 1500 distance (or closer and make use of SD when I am reduced to using grenade #1) while my team contribution is stacking Vulnerability.

This is not a grenade-centric build. This is a bomb-centric build, taking grenades only when players are too lazy to actually learn how to survive in melee range. At first I felt that the bomb kit wasn’t suited for a lot of world events, dungeons, and fractals. But after composing this build together and testing it over the past week, I can count on one hand the number of fights I have to use grenades with.

It’s harder to play, certainly. You have to know the safe spots against Fire Elemental. Staying alive against Golem requires a lot of precise movement, avoiding lightning fields and knockbacks. But it’s a lot more fun to play than just standing at 1200 range firing hip shot or—worse—spamming #1 for ten minutes lobbing grenades from 1500 range.

Sigil of Energy fully rectifies the loss of Invigorating Speed, and opens up the advantage of taking Hair Trigger and Sitting Duck together, which makes the rifle a very powerful weapon choice with both direct damage and a ton of vuln stacking—and still take Static Discharge!

I really suggest you try the new build I posted and see how you like it before you go back to 30 Tools.

Ten minutes spamming grenade #1, huh? I see.

I apologize for derailing your thread as I was answering Krag/Mork’s utility/damage point of view regarding Tools for Firearms. I am not hardcore enough to be in melee wearing paper for armor, and, as I mentioned, nor am I playing with min maxed pros who do Might/Vuln/Fury stacking. I am sure your build rocks for players in either situation.

Kanto.1659:

Ten minutes spamming grenade #1, huh? I see.

I apologize for derailing your thread as I was answering Krag/Mork’s utility/damage point of view regarding Tools for Firearms.

No apology necessary. I think it’s a conversation worth having.

RE: Ten minutes of spamming #1, as much as I recognize that one playstyle is “easier” than the other, there’s a certain amount of gratification surviving Golem fighting him at melee range the entire time that enriches gameplay enjoyment than standing in the back spamming grenades in no apparent danger.

Kanto.1659:

I am not hardcore enough to be in melee wearing paper for armor, and, as I mentioned, nor am I playing with min maxed pros who do Might/Vuln/Fury stacking. I am sure your build rocks for players in either situation.

You don’t have to play in min/max groups to run a build like this. Between this and my FT/EG combo build, I have always advertised builds that are just as effective in pugs as they are in organized groups. If anything, builds like these lend themselves better to pugs, as most min/max groups will already have Elementalists with Lightning Hammers for stacking might and Guardians/Warriors for vulnerability. This build was intentionally constructed to cover the bases of vulnerability, might, condition removal, and general DPS—not that it is necessary the best at any of these roles.

I finally made up my mind and switched to this build, going well so far, I don’t see numbers as big as with my old Tools even though I’ve seen a very few 9k auto attacks in perfect conditions and against bosses with low armor like Old Tom but I’m satisfied.

I miss my endurance regeneration though, good thing toolbelt skills give you 10% back and I get myself a shield with Sigil of Energy.

Did frac 49 yesterday, Mossman, Uncategorized, Grawl, Mai Trin, no death, no problem, didn’t even have to use my shield.

What made me change to this build? Phineas’ posts on gw2guru back when he was very reluctant to losing his vigor, people change and so did I.

I’ve been running this build since before the patch but I was mostly Grenadier with bomb kit available for fields. I decided to drop grenades and rely on bombs/rifle last night. With the larger area bomb blasts this build is really fun and effective.

Blood~