Guild Wars 2

Here’s the idea;

Engineer’s now choose one primary weapon kit. This kit is equipped as an “off set”, similar to every other class (except for ele’s) secondary weapon set. You can switch back and forth between the two.

Skills in this set are now normalized in regards to stats, the same way weapons are. This specific benefit does not apply to any weapon kits equipped as utilities.

There is no longer a toolbelt skill for whatever weapon is equipped as the off-set.

The bundle equipped as the off-set can wear any sigil (the sigil is equipped to the ‘slot’ itself, not the actual kit) – meaning that you don’t have access to 5+ sigils at the same time, which I think makes it /fair/.

Benefits:
-Weapon bundle will now benefit from stats and sigils, without providing an array of potentially 5 weapons with stats/sigil effects.
-Turret engineers can now use the Tool Kit as well as equip 3 turrets.

Now, give me your thoughts on this issue; do you think it’s stupid, do you know how to improve it, does this not align with what the general engineer community is looking for?

Thanks for reading!

This would be a great workaround for weapon kits causing you to lose your weapon stats and sigil.

Couple of problems that I see with it, though. For one, this hinders anyone that runs more than one weapon kit on their utility bar. I use the Grenadier and Static Discharge traits for WvW, so this would definitely hurt my build if I had to choose between using either Grenades or Tool kit. Another thing, some of the toolbelt skills are core skills that define a lot of the weapon kits. Throw Wrench is probably the best skill that the Tool kit offers(Though this might be saying something about the strength of the kit itself), and Grenade Barrage and Big Ol’ Bomb are both extremely useful skills by themselves.

If this is is applied:
1. Kits will be COMPULSORY!
2. Kits wont be as unique
3. I lose some good Toolbelt skills
4. I cant equip multiple kits

I feel that the loss of sigil(s) and utility slot can be negated if kits are balanced properly to compensate but its imposible to convince the player base because its human nature to want more. For example, most would agree that Grenade is overpowering but they still want the added advantage of stats and sigils.

I like the ability of getting a toolbelt skill with my kit. I don’t think it should be that way.

Besides, I like having more than one kit to swap between. I currently have 3 different weapons I switch between (FT, EG, and pistol/shield), and I do pretty well with them.

I would like to provide some clarification on some of your points:

@Sophora: One of the issues I think the devs have with Engi’s (no evidence of this though) is that our kits can be worn indefinitely. They have toolbelt skills, they have always-on-mode, and we can trait extensively into the various kits. In comparison, the recently-buffed conjured weapons that ele’s now have, also come with a pitiful duration and limited number of charges. This is to say, “we can’t have our cake and eat it too”. My suggestion in making one the off-set, is so that we’ll have the opportunity to have a fully statified/functional off-set weapon (which is a bundle we choose), while not breaking the bank by having 5 fully statified/functional weapons, which is what a lot of people have been asking for.

@Orion the Cursed: Compulsory would imply that you were required to use one and switch to it, which is not the case in my design. That’s like saying using ‘steal’ is compulsory for pistol/bow thieves. Kits will maintain their uniqueness, they will just gain some additional/needed benefits, while opening up room on our utility bars for other skills. You can still use more than one if you want, but the idea should be “I wear my favorite kit as an off-set, and my situational kit(s) as utility when needed”.

@Sporadicus & Orion: If ANet is willing to add a fifth tool-belt skill slot on top of this idea, I’m not going to argue with it! However if they did, then one could argue that each of our normal weapon-kits (pistols rifle and shield ((maybe shield.. it’s OH though))) should also get a toolbelt skill. Again, if they would do that I definitely wouldn’t stand in their way~

No no, i mean compulsory as in everyone MUST choose 1 kit. You would be stupid to play without a kit. Also it wont be fair to the other classes because now we have 2 special class mechanics.

Edit: dont bother answering, i just realized all you are interested in is what YOU want, and not improving the game.

-You want extra stats & sigils
-You want extra utility slot
-You want extra toolbelt slot(s)

but you are willing to sacrifice…
-nothing

I agree that the absence of stats and sigils from kits is an issue (my number 1 issue with the engineer), but in this change: what do you do with the weapon-switch cooldown?

At the moment kit-switching has a 1 second cooldown (practically 0 in other words), which is a large advantage to many builds.
Simply turning kits into an offhand and retaining this low cooldown would probably be considered overpowered.

The low cooldown and toolbelt skill are to offset the fact you use up a utility, which in itself is a good and interesting mechanic I think. The only basic problem I see is we also give up sigils and stats comparable to an exotic and (apart from traited grenades) that puts kits below a secondary weapon.

It’s interesting, but I feel you’re trying to fix one problem by creating another one.

Orion the Cursed.1206:

No no, i mean compulsory as in everyone MUST choose 1 kit. You would be stupid to play without a kit. Also it wont be fair to the other classes because now we have 2 special class mechanics.

Edit: dont bother answering, i just realized all you are interested in is what YOU want, and not improving the game.

-You want extra stats & sigils
-You want extra utility slot
-You want extra toolbelt slot(s)

but you are willing to sacrifice…
-nothing

I don’t think this is what he is asking for. The issue is that that engineers don’t want "extra"stats and sigils, they want access to stats and sigils that every other class has, but are denied save in limited circumstances due to their class mechanics. And they are losing something that is important to a lot of players: kit variety. I know many folks who use 2 or even 3 kits on their utility slots, under this framework they would be limited to a single kit.

amiable.4823:

Orion the Cursed.1206:

No no, i mean compulsory as in everyone MUST choose 1 kit. You would be stupid to play without a kit. Also it wont be fair to the other classes because now we have 2 special class mechanics.

Edit: dont bother answering, i just realized all you are interested in is what YOU want, and not improving the game.

-You want extra stats & sigils
-You want extra utility slot
-You want extra toolbelt slot(s)

but you are willing to sacrifice…
-nothing

I don’t think this is what he is asking for. The issue is that that engineers don’t want "extra"stats and sigils, they want access to stats and sigils that every other class has, but are denied save in limited circumstances due to their class mechanics. And they are losing something that is important to a lot of players: kit variety. I know many folks who use 2 or even 3 kits on their utility slots, under this framework they would be limited to a single kit.

But are you/he/they willing to scale down ALL kit damage (by about -30%) and scale up the cooldown (+20%)in exchange for the stats and sigils of their current weapons? Kits currently are balanced to be stat-less. If you want the stats and sigils of their current weapons, then they are "extra"s. You cant have it both ways. If grenades have stats and sigils, in return they must do less dps than a standard rifle shot because they are aoe as well (or maybe equal since they consume an utility slot). If your friends truly believe that kits are underpowered without the the stats and sigils, they wouldn’t use any kits.

Orion the Cursed.1206:

But are you/he/they willing to scale down ALL kit damage (by about -30%) and scale up the cooldown (+20%)in exchange for the stats and sigils of their current weapons? Kits currently are balanced to be stat-less. If you want the stats and sigils of their current weapons, then they are "extra"s. You cant have it both ways. If grenades have stats and sigils, in return they must do less dps than a standard rifle shot because they are aoe as well (or maybe equal since they consume an utility slot). If your friends truly believe that kits are underpowered without the the stats and sigils, they wouldn’t use any kits.

By your logic, putting a bundle on par with a normal weapon kit means the kit needs to be NERFED? Additionally, you think that because grenades are all AoE skills, that they should do less DPS? You do realize that pretty much every class in the game has access to weapon-kit based AoE’s, some take up the entire weapon skill set as well right?

Additionally, I think about everyone here would like to beg to differ on “kits being balanced without stats”. If you can fire an exotic rifle at a monster for a minute at level 80 and compare it to doing the same thing with our kitteny flamethrower, then you might actually see that kits don’t keep up with normal weapons, both in damage, scaling, and utility.

amiable

And they are losing something that is important to a lot of players: kit variety.

I’m still not sure how it is we’re losing kit variety with my idea. You can still have additional weapon kits, actually you /could/ if you really wanted, have an additional weapon kit (4 total + weapon). The only difference is that the one you choose as your side-arm will actually function on the same level as a weapon kit itself, not the underpowered incarnation it currently has.

On the point about tool kit skills; you’re right, the only reason we have those is because our skills on the utility bar do take up a space. Since that is the actual reason, we shouldn’t get a tool kit skill for whatever bundle followed my idea and was an off-set.

Snafoo

Simply turning kits into an offhand and retaining this low cooldown would probably be considered overpowered.

That’s a valid point. We can’t be able to go back and forth between weapon-kit/side-arm kit. Normal bundle overlays? Certainly, keep the no cooldown factor. Whatever side-arm you have selected, that has normalized stats and sigils, will fall under the same category as everyone elses weapon kits, with the same cooldown. You can still equip your utility bundles while weapon swap is on cooldown, just not your side-arm kit.

Orion the Cursed.1206:

But are you/he/they willing to scale down ALL kit damage (by about -30%) and scale up the cooldown (+20%)in exchange for the stats and sigils of their current weapons? Kits currently are balanced to be stat-less. If you want the stats and sigils of their current weapons, then they are "extra"s. You cant have it both ways. If grenades have stats and sigils, in return they must do less dps than a standard rifle shot because they are aoe as well (or maybe equal since they consume an utility slot). If your friends truly believe that kits are underpowered without the the stats and sigils, they wouldn’t use any kits.

I think what you are arguing here is that grenade kit is overpowered, which is a separate discussion. TK, EG and FT are clearly underpowered due to borked mechanics and poor scaling as well as the lack of sigils and the stats gained from equipment. (I think the bomb kit is in a good place though). Grenades are also a different mechanism than a rifle shot because of the travel time/aiming issues. In any case I am not arguing they should do this because I would prefer the status quo to this (I run EG on my utility bar because of all the wonderful utility it has and bomb kit for DPS).

If you are coming from the standpoint that any change is going to break engineers because of the effect it will have on grenades the answer would be to suggest nerfing grenades, not nerfing everything. If you are arguing that an engineers other dps abilities are appropriately scaled I don’t think you are going to get a lot of agreement on that.

LoreChief.8391:

That’s a valid point. We can’t be able to go back and forth between weapon-kit/side-arm kit. Normal bundle overlays? Certainly, keep the no cooldown factor. Whatever side-arm you have selected, that has normalized stats and sigils, will fall under the same category as everyone elses weapon kits, with the same cooldown. You can still equip your utility bundles while weapon swap is on cooldown, just not your side-arm kit.

But then if I understand it correctly you want this added to the engineer without touching any of the class mechanics we currently have. It would be a straight buff.

I don’t feel like my engineer is so underpowered he needs a buff of this magnitude tbh. This would simply be adding another utility slot.
Granted one that only a kit could fill and has no toolbelt, but still a huge buff to the class.

Kits need fixing as far as stats and sigils go, but this suggestion adds more than a fix for kits, it adds a serious buff to the class as a whole and that is not needed imo.

amiable.4823:

Orion the Cursed.1206:

But are you/he/they willing to scale down ALL kit damage (by about -30%) and scale up the cooldown (+20%)in exchange for the stats and sigils of their current weapons? Kits currently are balanced to be stat-less. If you want the stats and sigils of their current weapons, then they are "extra"s. You cant have it both ways. If grenades have stats and sigils, in return they must do less dps than a standard rifle shot because they are aoe as well (or maybe equal since they consume an utility slot). If your friends truly believe that kits are underpowered without the the stats and sigils, they wouldn’t use any kits.

I think what you are arguing here is that grenade kit is overpowered, which is a separate discussion. TK, EG and FT are clearly underpowered due to borked mechanics and poor scaling as well as the lack of sigils and the stats gained from equipment. (I think the bomb kit is in a good place though). Grenades are also a different mechanism than a rifle shot because of the travel time/aiming issues. In any case I am not arguing they should do this because I would prefer the status quo to this (I run EG on my utility bar because of all the wonderful utility it has and bomb kit for DPS).

If you are coming from the standpoint that any change is going to break engineers because of the effect it will have on grenades the answer would be to suggest nerfing grenades, not nerfing everything. If you are arguing that an engineers other dps abilities are appropriately scaled I don’t think you are going to get a lot of agreement on that.

i am not talking exclusively about grenades. I used it as an random example. I am talking about all kits. Flame thrower, bomb (both do aoe and condition damage), are on par with lvl 80 exotic rifles while tool/medi/elixirgun kits, have great usability. All kits can be traited in some way to compensate for the lack of sigils(grenadier/juggernaut/etc). You claim that non-grenade kits are not “appropriately scaled” then why do you run EG? I repeat my self “If your friends(or YOU) truly believe that kits are underpowered without the stats and sigils, they(YOU) wouldn’t use any kits.” That is how you prove to Anet that kits deserve some stats and sigils (upgrades). For example i disagree with making the last story mission a dungeon. So i will never do it. In short, as long as people keep using kits, you are proven wrong.

I never said “any change is going to break engineers”. I’m simply asking you for the sake of balance, what are you willing to sacrifice to get what you want? OP’s answer is nothing because he is entitled to be better.

BTW, i dont think grenades are overpowered because you sacrifice a lot of survivalbility (and traits) in exchange for the damage.

Orion the Cursed.1206:

i am not talking exclusively about grenades. I used it as an random example. I am talking about all kits. Flame thrower, bomb (both do aoe and condition damage), are on par with lvl 80 exotic rifles while tool/medi/elixirgun kits, have great usability. All kits can be traited in some way to compensate for the lack of sigils(grenadier/juggernaut/etc). You claim that non-grenade kits are not “appropriately scaled” then why do you run EG?

Re EG: Solely for the utility, which is terrific (condition removal, heal field, snare, combo generator, escape mechanism). As a damage kit there is really no way to build out anything with an EG that would be competitive with a good rifle build. I won’t dispute you on bomb, which I think is a terrific kit (although it has its limitations), but there is no way on gods green earth that FT’s are on par with level 80 exotic rifles except in a semantic sense, no mater how you build it. Toolkit as well is a subpar dps kit. I think I misunderstood what the OP was requesting, because he would still allow kits to go in utility slots, if they added this I would think that should be removed.

The FT is arguably superior to a rifle when you’re trying to solo an enemy who blinds you three times a second.

@amiable

FT with a condition damage build and Juggernaut vs rifle with the trait buffs. I usually make use of the AoE to hit 3 foes burning all 3. FT has less “fitness” but more armor & damage(might build up). FT is definately better than a Burn Guardians Staff (Wall takes forever to cast). EG has less damage but amazing team synergy. TK are for WvW CC+tanks because of the Magnet skill and their ability to cycle 2 blocks(swap with shield) with Elixir S.

No they are not perfectly balanced NOW. But…

I feel that the loss of sigil(s) and utility slot can be negated if kits are balanced properly to compensate but its imposible to convince the player base because its human nature to want more. For example, most would agree that Grenade is overpowering but they still want the added advantage of stats and sigils.

If anything the grenadier trait is overpowered, not the Kit. Its +50% damage and +300 range in 1 weapon trait. Most other weapons (from other classes) only get 5% to 10% damage.

Ugh, not another repeat of this old thread. Haven’t we already rehashed this in enough in all the other threads on this topic?

I absolutely dislike this idea. For starters, every other class would go berserk, and rightfully so, that one class has access to weapons no others can. It would also have the have a longer swap time, and a lot of my appeal to the profession is the insa-swap. For balance it would remove the benefit.

I wouldn’t want to lose my tool belt by picking a weapon as a swap. Some of my choice of a kit is its tool belt skill. I feel your idea would completely destroy the majority of the mechanics that are the greatest benefits of the engineer.

I thought this was a bad idea on the first thread on the same topics, now that we are on thread 97 or 98 on this topic, I still dislike it completely.