Guild Wars 2

Glyphs wants a what? (Heh movie references)

You devs I’d like to believe you had good intentions when you made then engineer. You basically wanted a Batman character but without being batman. However I don’t think batman would ever forgo crappy toys when even pick up ones are far superior.

Case and point: The Flamethrower.

Out of all the worthless kits among our utility belt, this is by far the worst at our disposal. You know I get the concept, a aoe main weapon that can burn people. Sounds great, on paper. But in practice it’s so weak it’s almost pathetic.

One of my main problems is that it’s main attack is the most awful standard attack in the game hands down. It launches 5 attacks but they are so tiny in damage that you’d be lucky to bring down any opponent. The max i’ve ever hit per hit was a measly 200 to 4oo Crit and that’s if I didn’t miss or had good crit chance. The only affective way I ever found the flame thrower was pre-omnom pie nerf. Even at it’s max power and crit it could barely breach the 2k mark. The pie was the only thing that made it affective as a slow burning tanker build/proc launcher but now i wouldn’t use the kitten thing in pve. And aside from the worthless skills it has on it, I can’t find it to be of any use in any situation.

And you know whats sad? You already have in the game a WAY better substitute for this known as the “Deionizing Arcanoduster” found in Mount Malestrom . It works the same as the flamethrower but is far more improved.
1: It launches 600 to 1.2k crit hits EVERY hit
2. It has a combo finisher with a short CD.
3. It has an effective pushback
4. It has frost which is way better than burn

Engineers are so out classed by just about class in terms of any damage it can dish out and are overcumbbered with the most head bashing control learning curve that you’d be lucky to see any of them anywhere.

I think you could do much better.
How about we start by making this kit good?

I like the flamethrower.

OP Troll. Very long winded and poorly thought out troll.

FT is godly. It’s easily the most fun kit we have. Does mad damage to groups, and is so easy to bunker with.

Drakkon.4782:

OP Troll. Very long winded and poorly thought out troll.

FT is godly. It’s easily the most fun kit we have. Does mad damage to groups, and is so easy to bunker with.

I’m not sure why having a different thought out opinion counts as being a “goblin” but no I truly do believe the devs can give us a far superior version of this kit. Besides I don’t believe i’ve ever seen an engi who has used it with exceptions.

Reinforcments.5713:

Case and point: The Flamethrower.

Out of all the worthless kits among our utility belt, this is by far the worst at our disposal.

How about we start by making this kit good?

I wonder how I could get the wrong impression?

Reinforcments.5713:

Drakkon.4782:

OP Troll. Very long winded and poorly thought out troll.

FT is godly. It’s easily the most fun kit we have. Does mad damage to groups, and is so easy to bunker with.

I’m not sure why having a different thought out opinion counts as being a “goblin” but no I truly do believe the devs can give us a far superior version of this kit. Besides I don’t believe i’ve ever seen an engi who has used it with exceptions.

Just because you haven’t seen us doesn’t mean we don’t exist.
I currently play a pure juggernaught build (Pvt gear) and absolutely love it in WvW.
20 points minimum in the firearms line for juggernaught major trait.
20 points minimum in the alchemy line for the Deadly Mixture.
30 points spare to place into whatever I feel like using to enhance the build. Depending on how I feel like running on the day I could go deeper into alchemy (HGH) or firearms, into explosives for enhanced performance (more might), into inventions for more toughness, power shoes and energized armor, or tools for speedy kits or static discharge.
The versatility is amazing with Flamethrower as the foundation of the build.

It’s quite exhilarating dropping a line of napalm on a downed enemy and using rocket boots in their face to get area might combos.

2 things….

• ALL kits are actually amazing
• Lesson or the day: don’t Auto attack

Love how you attached a pic of FT doing bad damage in a lvl 65 zone with you down-leveled.

Seras.5702:

Love how you attached a pic of FT doing bad damage in a lvl 65 zone with you down-leveled.

You realized that both weapons are actually scaled to the zone both items can be used in, right?

This isn’t also about wither or not flamethrower can be used for might or utility or what not. Though I may have just haphazardly mentioned them, this is mostly about the base attack power of the kit.

Anyone can use any skill with anything and get better results, I just want something reliable when I don’t feel or have the ability to kittenen juggle 20 different buttons in one battle.

google.3709:

2 things….

• ALL kits are actually amazing
• Lesson or the day: don’t Auto attack

2 counter arguments

*Dependent…
*Why can’t my auto attack with the shortest cd and most likely common attack be powerful?

Elthurien.8356:

Reinforcments.5713:

Drakkon.4782:

OP Troll. Very long winded and poorly thought out troll.

FT is godly. It’s easily the most fun kit we have. Does mad damage to groups, and is so easy to bunker with.

I’m not sure why having a different thought out opinion counts as being a “goblin” but no I truly do believe the devs can give us a far superior version of this kit. Besides I don’t believe i’ve ever seen an engi who has used it with exceptions.

Just because you haven’t seen us doesn’t mean we don’t exist.
I currently play a pure juggernaught build (Pvt gear) and absolutely love it in WvW.
20 points minimum in the firearms line for juggernaught major trait.
20 points minimum in the alchemy line for the Deadly Mixture.
30 points spare to place into whatever I feel like using to enhance the build. Depending on how I feel like running on the day I could go deeper into alchemy (HGH) or firearms, into explosives for enhanced performance (more might), into inventions for more toughness, power shoes and energized armor, or tools for speedy kits or static discharge.
The versatility is amazing with Flamethrower as the foundation of the build.

It’s quite exhilarating dropping a line of napalm on a downed enemy and using rocket boots in their face to get area might combos.

I’m glad you can find use out of a kit despite having to basically work harder than say a gaurdian pressing 1,2,3,4. But I would really like to see it’s basic damage to be as good as my pistols, or grenades or bombs.

Drakkon.4782:

Reinforcments.5713:

Case and point: The Flamethrower.

Out of all the worthless kits among our utility belt, this is by far the worst at our disposal.

How about we start by making this kit good?

I wonder how I could get the wrong impression?

Because you are bias for the kit and there for you unjustly disagree with a differing opinion. So get off your high…turret.

Reinforcments.5713:

I just want something reliable when I don’t feel or have the ability to kittenen juggle 20 different buttons in one battle.

Engineer may not be the profession for you.

Just sayin’.

This argument has met the concrete wall of this forum many times.

The engineer is a complex profession with a high skill floor based upon the manipulation of numerous skills and cooldowns at one time. Micromanagement of many skills is key to the successful operation of the engineer.

If you want a less complex way of playing the game, then go play your guardian or thief or mesmer.

…

or spec nades.

111211311F111!!1111!1411!F111!~~~!!1113111F11115112

nakoda.4213:

Reinforcments.5713:

I just want something reliable when I don’t feel or have the ability to kittenen juggle 20 different buttons in one battle.

Engineer may not be the profession for you.

Just sayin’.

This argument has met the concrete wall of this forum many times.

The engineer is a complex profession with a high skill floor based upon the manipulation of numerous skills and cooldowns at one time. Micromanagement of many skills is key to the successful operation of the engineer.

If you want a less complex way of playing the game, then go play your guardian or thief or mesmer.

…

or spec nades.

111211311F111!!1111!1411!F111!~~~!!1113111F11115112

Regardless my opinion still is valid.

The auto-attack on the FT is abysmal. Everything else about the kit is pretty good.

Reinforcments.5713:

nakoda.4213:

Reinforcments.5713:

I just want something reliable when I don’t feel or have the ability to kittenen juggle 20 different buttons in one battle.

Engineer may not be the profession for you.

Just sayin’.

This argument has met the concrete wall of this forum many times.

The engineer is a complex profession with a high skill floor based upon the manipulation of numerous skills and cooldowns at one time. Micromanagement of many skills is key to the successful operation of the engineer.

If you want a less complex way of playing the game, then go play your guardian or thief or mesmer.

…

or spec nades.

111211311F111!!1111!1411!F111!~~~!!1113111F11115112

Regardless my opinion still is valid.

Spec HGH nades. Simple to play. 5432111112….
All bunker engi specs use kits for the pile of CC, blinds and blocks they offer.
Engineers are inventors, gadget whizzes and walking arsenals that employ a large variety of tools to fight their way to victory. With kits you become very unpredictable because you can access a lot of different tools nearly instantly.

The Flamethrower is great except for the autoattack. Everything else goes well with a condi or bunker spec with the control and burning it offers. It has been a longstanding fact since beta.

Mesmer and Guardian may be better classes for you. They don’t have a huge list of skills and are more straightforward to play. Actually, besides the Elementalist, all the other classes don’t “need to kittenen juggle 20 different buttons in one battle”. I think you picked the Engineer to play for the wrong reasons…

Reinforcments.5713:

Engineers are so out classed by just about class in terms of any damage it can dish out and are overcumbbered with the most head bashing control learning curve that you’d be lucky to see any of them anywhere.

If that’s how you feel about it, then maybe you should just play something else. There’s nothing wrong with leveling a Guardian or Warrior because they’re easier. I got them both to level 80 myself.

But there’s nothing wrong with the Flamethrower, and there’s nothing wrong with the Engineer on the whole. We’re in a very good place right now in pretty much every aspect of the game.

And no, the Flamethrower is not our prime DPS weapon. That would be the Bomb Kit or Grenade Kit. I just happen to like the Flamethrower because it complements the Elixir Gun best—and it’s very fun to use. But that being said, the damage on it is more than satisfactory.

Reinforcments.5713:

This isn’t also about wither or not flamethrower can be used for might or utility or what not. Though I may have just haphazardly mentioned them, this is mostly about the base attack power of the kit.

Anyone can use any skill with anything and get better results, I just want something reliable when I don’t feel or have the ability to kittenen juggle 20 different buttons in one battle.

That’s sort of the charm of the Engineer. We have so many tools at our disposal. And we have a very dynamic and active combat style. I main an Engineer because I have to juggle 20 different buttons. It’s way more fulfilling and engaging than sitting back and autoattacking with a warrior’s rifle.

Reinforcments.5713:

I’m glad you can find use out of a kit despite having to basically work harder than say a gaurdian pressing 1,2,3,4. But I would really like to see it’s basic damage to be as good as my pistols, or grenades or bombs.

But I think you’re missing the point of the FT kit. We have high damage kits like grenades and bombs. What FT gives us is pressure. 200 free toughness and 5+ stacks of might just for equipping it with a single trait. Aoe damage, constant burning, pbaoe blind, knockback, and one of the lowest CD fire fields in the game. We can do all those things with a single utility slot and a single trait. The damage is good. Not as good as grenades, but it’s not supposed to be. It’s supposed to be a pressure, in your face, hearty weapon that sprays everyone around and can be coupled with our other tools for great survivability and utility. It’s a jack-of-all-trades weapon kit.

Also, comparing it to pistol autoattack for damage is not really your best argument. It’s one of our weakest autos.

I like the FT. I’ve been having a ton of fun with this SPVP build using a combo of Nades & FT. Nothing meaner than hitting a group with incendiary ammo & frost nades. Plenty of might stacking with Firewall/blast finishers. The Autoattack isn’t bad either. When you have high condition damage there is nothing wrong with hitting a group for 1.5-2k and then an additional 700 1s from burn damage.

http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?fcAQFAUlIqiYH5yuF1LJyoCdGoC2lIF5nl95BblWQIA

-Lambchops

Reinforcments.5713:

Regardless my opinion still is valid.

No. You are entitled to your opinion, which is really the only thing anyone is actually entitled to, but it doesn’t mean that it’s valid. Your opinion is poorly formed, logically flawed, you are resistant to help, and you are just trying to make excuses to show that one of the coolest aspects of the Engineer is bad and shouldn’t be as it is.

While FT needs some perking, it isn’t bad. Just because you don’t know how to properly use it doesn’t mean it’s broken. It means you’re bad at playing it and need to learn how to play. FT does good damage, but it isn’t great against single targets. It isn’t a single target weapon. It’s designed to be group support, hitting everything in a cone in front of it for the same damage, blanketing everything in even death.

Buttons #3 and #2 are supposed to be used, in that order, to handle mobs that are doing too much damage while you’re laying down suppression fire. Blow them back, then hit them with Napalm. It’s a 1-2 punch.

Button #4 is for stationary targets who don’t move while DPSing, like mobs with ranged, or stupid bunker casters. Flame wall is fun. Use it well.

Of all of them, #5 is the one I use the least, because I’ve spent too much time fighting Dredge, who are immune to Blind. However, the debuff from the Blind Condition should not be discounted in PvP/WvW.

Just because you can’t employ it properly doesn’t mean that it’s broken, flawed, or in need of being removed. Your opinion is your own, you’re entitled to have it, but it isn’t valid, it isn’t fact, and it, obviously, isn’t welcome. When you learn to play your class, learn to take advise, and learn to not troll, your points will carry more weight.

Now, please stop trying to act like you know what you’re doing. We’ve been patient with you. Go away.

Drakkon.4782:

Reinforcments.5713:

Regardless my opinion still is valid.

No. You are entitled to your opinion, which is really the only thing anyone is actually entitled to, but it doesn’t mean that it’s valid. Your opinion is poorly formed, logically flawed, you are resistant to help, and you are just trying to make excuses to show that one of the coolest aspects of the Engineer is bad and shouldn’t be as it is.

While FT needs some perking, it isn’t bad. Just because you don’t know how to properly use it doesn’t mean it’s broken. It means you’re bad at playing it and need to learn how to play. FT does good damage, but it isn’t great against single targets. It isn’t a single target weapon. It’s designed to be group support, hitting everything in a cone in front of it for the same damage, blanketing everything in even death.

Buttons #3 and #2 are supposed to be used, in that order, to handle mobs that are doing too much damage while you’re laying down suppression fire. Blow them back, then hit them with Napalm. It’s a 1-2 punch.

Button #4 is for stationary targets who don’t move while DPSing, like mobs with ranged, or stupid bunker casters. Flame wall is fun. Use it well.

Of all of them, #5 is the one I use the least, because I’ve spent too much time fighting Dredge, who are immune to Blind. However, the debuff from the Blind Condition should not be discounted in PvP/WvW.

Just because you can’t employ it properly doesn’t mean that it’s broken, flawed, or in need of being removed. Your opinion is your own, you’re entitled to have it, but it isn’t valid, it isn’t fact, and it, obviously, isn’t welcome. When you learn to play your class, learn to take advise, and learn to not troll, your points will carry more weight.

Now, please stop trying to act like you know what you’re doing. We’ve been patient with you. Go away.

I’m sorry, do you actually develop and test for Arenanet? No? Then I don’t care about how many people have to work around to make a functional option. I want a better flamethrower. One that actually strikes fear in opponents. Not one that is mildly annoying and more convoluted to use than a Atom Smasher.

I want a pony… Just saying.

Reinforcments.5713:

I’m sorry, do you actually develop and test for Arenanet? No? Then I don’t care about how many people have to work around to make a functional option. I want a better flamethrower. One that actually strikes fear in opponents. Not one that is mildly annoying and more convoluted to use than a Atom Smasher.

And that has nothing to do with the discussion. You don’t know what you’re doing, and those of us who do have stated that the FT is fine. The Engineer isn’t easymode. It isn’t faceroll. You have to know what you’re doing. You have to have some level of skill. And you have to have a sense of timing.

I don’t want to one-button everything to death. I play Engineer because that’s perfect. I have to agree with a previous commenter, Engineer isn’t for you. You don’t have the patience to do it right.

Reinforcments.5713:

google.3709:

2 things….

• ALL kits are actually amazing
• Lesson or the day: don’t Auto attack

2 counter arguments

*Dependent…
*Why can’t my auto attack with the shortest cd and most likely common attack be powerful?

Dependent on what ? :p kits don’t need any other skills/traits to complement them they are awesome when you use 1 or 4

and because… FT Autoattack damages people mentally more that it does ingame to your enemy. after seeing “miss miss miss” and enemies not dying, they fall into deep depression and then let out all the frustration on forums

You’ve never faced my FT if your fear of the kit stops at “mildly annoying”.

Just because you suck with it doesn’t mean the kit sucks.

It means you do.

Knox.8962:

The auto-attack on the FT is abysmal. Everything else about the kit is pretty good.

Gotta quote this. But i would say this is true for the other autoattacks as well – except traited grenades.
Albeit, napalm could be spiced up a little. I mean, it is used more for the fire field that for its primary effect – cause 1s burning on such a thin wall isn’t exactly what it can be called a menacing threat. Sure, it may be good on downed people…but just because they can’t usually move from there.

You have to remember that any projectile finisher that goes through the field also causes burning, so it can also add burning by shooting rifle or pistol skills through it.

Knox.8962:

You have to remember that any projectile finisher that goes through the field also causes burning, so it can also add burning by shooting rifle or pistol skills through it.

That’s true indeed. But how many enemies will stay behind it? As an area denial it doesn’t deny much, the enemies will rather come directly to the engineer.
Sure, you may put it into a point and try kiting in circle, so that if the enemy follows you he gets burned a bit. The form of the aoe makes it a bit unconfortable, though.

So where’s the math supporting either side? Some disputes are about damage. That’s pretty easy to prove.

Cooltar.2608:

I like the FT. I’ve been having a ton of fun with this SPVP build using a combo of Nades & FT. Nothing meaner than hitting a group with incendiary ammo & frost nades. Plenty of might stacking with Firewall/blast finishers. The Autoattack isn’t bad either. When you have high condition damage there is nothing wrong with hitting a group for 1.5-2k and then an additional 700 1s from burn damage.

http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?fcAQFAUlIqiYH5yuF1LJyoCdGoC2lIF5nl95BblWQIA

-Lambchops

Yeah, it’s all fun and games…

EXCEPT your linked build doesn’t use FT at all

Seetoo.9316:

So where’s the math supporting either side? Some disputes are about damage. That’s pretty easy to prove.

Using the guardian 1h sword as comparison:

Untraited with the PvP soldier amulet and rune of strength:

Flame Jet – 1000 damage with a 2.5 second activation time and 1s burning at 328 damage. 1328/2.5 = 531 dps. With the 10% boost from burning foes, you’ll be at 628 dps.

1h Sword – 548, 548, 1026 over 2.5 seconds. That also provides 1s of burning, so you end up with 2450/2.5 = 980 dps. That drops to 849 dps if you don’t count the burning since it is a class mechanic.

Either way, you’ll be 25-35% less effective than the guardian sword (depending on how you consider the guardian burning) , before you factor in damage traits, and that will skew it even farther.

I still think that the kit itself is good. I just think that the AA is terrible.

Knox.8962:

Seetoo.9316:

So where’s the math supporting either side? Some disputes are about damage. That’s pretty easy to prove.

Using the guardian 1h sword as comparison:

Untraited with the PvP soldier amulet and rune of strength:

Flame Jet – 1000 damage with a 2.5 second activation time and 1s burning at 328 damage. 1328/2.5 = 531 dps. With the 10% boost from burning foes, you’ll be at 628 dps.

1h Sword – 548, 548, 1026 over 2.5 seconds. That also provides 1s of burning, so you end up with 2450/2.5 = 980 dps. That drops to 849 dps if you don’t count the burning since it is a class mechanic.

Either way, you’ll be 25-35% less effective than the guardian sword (depending on how you consider the guardian burning) , before you factor in damage traits, and that will skew it even farther.

I still think that the kit itself is good. I just think that the AA is terrible.

Okay. Having an 80 Guardian I really have to step in here because this comparison is ridiculous.

For one thing, the Guardian 1H Sword is actually an incredible single-target DPS weapon. The first two strikes in its auto-attack chain scale by 80%, which is standard. Whatever. But the third strike, Sword Wave, scales by 150% of your Power value.

That’s almost as powerful as Flame Blast.

Now this within itself is fine because the Guardian is designed so that most of your traits are built defensively. Really, the two biggest buffs to the 1H Sword Guardian are Right-Handed Strength and Powerful Blades, which add 15% Critical and 5% Damage respectively. They also have access to Fiery Wrath, which adds 10% Damage to burning targets.

So when you walk into the Mists as a Guardian, untraited, the results you find in DPS aren’t really going to be all that different from 30 Radiance, because the majority of your traits are going to be defined by defensive boon/buff support.

Compare that to what a Flamethrower Engineer leaves on the table without their traits.

Juggernaut: 5-9 stacks of Might (175-315 Power)
Deadly Mixture: 15% additional damage
Enduring Damage: 10% additional damage
Energy Conversion Matrix: 1% additional damage per boon
Target The Maimed: 5% Damage to bleeding targets

Obviously an FT Engi has to choose between 2 of those 3 final traits and cannot have all of them, but the damage difference between an untraited/traited FT and an untraited/traited 1H Sword is really staggering. You’re not witnessing the whole picture.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Obviously an FT Engi has to choose between 2 of those 3 final traits and cannot have all of them, but the damage difference between an untraited/traited FT and an untraited/traited 1H Sword is really staggering. You’re not witnessing the whole picture.

Additionally, this is a ridiculous comparison because a Guardian Sword is a single-target attack, and FT isn’t. FT is a weapon of mass-destruction. It is simply not designed to be a one-on-one equal. It spreads the love around. You don’t measure it against single targets. You measure it against multiple close-range targets.

This is why theorycrafting falls on its face. It can’t figure out that you can’t stick every weapon/attack under a microscope in a 1:1 rating and figure out what’s best because not every attack is designed for 1:1. This is why threads like this detract from and degrade the game. Failing to employ an attack the way it was designed to be used can lead to interesting and novel uses, but most of the time it just leads to small-minded, narrow interpretations of the results that are neither accurate, nor do they reflect the true value of the attack.

Final Analysis of the FT: If you don’t like it, don’t use it. If you do like it, or do want to use it, learn how to use it right. The only time you should be attacking one target is when there is only one target to attack. In WvW roaming, stick with your pack. FT is a great boon to groups.

Oh, and to anyone roaming with a Flamegineer, don’t pull the mobs out of the flame jet. God, it’s annoying to find that sweet spot and then have some stupid Guardian or Warrior train the mobs around like a moon-brain.

Guardian 1h sword hits the same number of targets that the FT does, albeit at a shorter range.

As far as damage scaling goes, I definitely disagree.
PP’s numbers give (assuming 50% uptime on the enduring damage) 1.15*1.05*1.1=1.32825 scaling.

The Guardian gets Fiery Wrath, Radiant Power, 5% 1h sword, and either 10% at low endurance and group might, or 20% under Aegis and 1% per boon. Assuming the same 50% uptime on the endurance trait, you get 1.1*1.05*1.1*1.05=1.334

The FT gets 10% crit under 50% health vs. the sword’s 15% crit all the time.

Juggernaut will provide more might to the engineer than Empowering Might will for the Guardian, but it’s probably the difference between 3 vs. 6 stacks of might, which is not even remotely close enough to overcome the 30-ish percent gap.

Again, I’m not saying that the FT is bad. I actually use the FT in WvW most of the time. I’m just saying that the Auto Attack damage is incredibly weak compared to the other “weapons” available.

You’re welcome to run the numbers for other classes, and you’ll see similar results for the power based weapon options the other classes get.

TL:DR Flamethrower is a great kit, with terrible auto attack damage.

TTW is a 10% increase to your critical chance against targets with less than 50% health, not a 10% increase to your critical damage.

Even still, I wasn’t arguing that the FT competes with the Guardian Sword. I was saying that comparing the two of them untraited is incredibly deceptive. It’s not indicative of how the kit actually performs compared to other weapons or kits, because you’re literally leaving 40% additional damage on the table. You’re right to point out Radiant Power. I did forget about that. But the Engineer is overall more trait dependent with its kits than a Guardian is with his weapons. Would anyone reasonably argue about the Grenade Kit’s damage without taking Grenadier into consideration? Of course not. And its damage output without it is actually kind of terrible.

I agree that the Sword ultimately does more damage, but I don’t think it’s a 35% difference when all relevant buffs are active and when the kit is used effectively.

Comparisons between untraited and traited are both important. Untraited shows how something is designed baseline. All weapons are designed with untraited stats and can be used as a control group to be compared with other tests.

Such tests could include:
- AA dps untriated vs traited
- trait point efficiency (how much does it cost to raise a weapons output by how much)

What’s deceptive is omitting data because it does not support your claim, like claiming the FT as a weapon set is strong without comparing it to a baseline. Or omitting to say that the FT does less damage than both ranged and melee options an eng’g has (not even comparing to other classes)

@ guard sword comparison
I’m guessing you compared it to sword because (traitless) it also provides the 1sec burn at the end (5 hits to burn, guard sword cycle = kittens). It would be better to compare it to guard staff.

Seetoo.9316:

Comparisons between untraited and traited are both important. Untraited shows how something is designed baseline. All weapons are designed with untraited stats and can be used as a control group to be compared with other tests.

Such tests could include:
- AA dps untriated vs traited
- trait point efficiency (how much does it cost to raise a weapons output by how much)

What’s deceptive is omitting data because it does not support your claim, like claiming the FT as a weapon set is strong without comparing it to a baseline. Or omitting to say that the FT does less damage than both ranged and melee options an eng’g has (not even comparing to other classes)

@ guard sword comparison
I’m guessing you compared it to sword because (traitless) it also provides the 1sec burn at the end (5 hits to burn, guard sword cycle = kittens). It would be better to compare it to guard staff.

I don’t see what’s “deceptive” about comparing the damage of the Flamethrower with a trait distribution that actually fully utilizes it to the damage of the Guardian Sword with a trait distribution that fully utilizes that.

I’m all for theorycrafting, and I’m OK with recognizing how baseline damage operates, but when you frame your argument solely around untraited damage it’s really just pointless, because we do use traits, and it is important to recognize that the Engineer’s traits are generally geared toward increasing the damage output of our kits (i.e., Juggernaut, Deadly Mixture, Grenadier) while the Guardian’s traits are generally geared toward improving their tankiness/support (i.e., Altruistic Healing, Master of Consecrations, Pure of Voice).

I don’t think there’s anything essentially groundbreaking or radical in making that statement, or establishing that Engineer kits are heavily trait dependent when it comes to their damage—far more than Guardians, Warriors, or most other classes in the game.

I also think there’s plenty to be said about the value of an auto-attack chain for Engineers compared to Guardians. Like Elementalists, our auto-attack chains are placeholders for when our more powerful skills are on cooldown. Flame Jet is meant to only be used to sustain Might stacks and burning on targets when Flame Blast, Blunderbuss, and Acid Bomb are on cooldown. The weight of your auto-attack chain as a Guardian with an 8 second weapon swap by comparison should be a much more significant part of your DPS. As one that personally plays with the Hammer/Staff combo, my auto-attack chain is the majority of my DPS. Flame Jet is hardly the case for my Engineer, regardless of whether it does 4K or 7K every channel.

The FT does about 20% more damage than the guardian staff auto-attack. That’s a pretty poor comparions in my opinion, because the staff doesn’t even pretend to be a damage weapon.

Again, I think the kit is great as a collection of utilities, but for damage, you’re not getting much out of it other than the #2 skill.

@Phineas Poe
You assume that all builds using kits are kit jugglers cycling the respective nukes per kit only ever using AA when all nukes are on CD.

And it’s kinda funny too, cuz that build is the one that will likely have a kit with untraited use seeing as you can not fully trait more than 2 kit (except for FT EG since they have been a pair since last year) more so if you also cycle your actual weapon. It got easier with a couple of FT/EG traits going down a tier, but what about bomb,grenade,and tool kits?

@ saying AA’s are simply fillers between nukes
Where was that logic with rifle, pistol, grenades, bombs, tool, and EG’s AA?

Anyway, time for some small talk and what ifs.
So Knox, would you trade your mobility for standard melee-ish damage on the FT’s AA? Something like “deal x2 damage when not moving” or something.

Seetoo.9316:

You assume that all builds using kits are kit jugglers cycling the respective nukes per kit only ever using AA when all nukes are on CD.

It’s not an assumption. It’s an expectation. And I’d say it’s a reasonable one at that. Why would I want an Engineer in my group who wields multiple kits but fails to utilize them properly? It’s like Warriors who take Fast Hands but don’t actually bother swapping to their Greatsword every chance they get for Hundred Blades. It’s suboptimal. If you’re going to wield the FT and the EG together with your Rifle, you develop a rotation where you’re using your hardest hitting skills most often. That means slipping in two Flame Blasts for every Blunderbuss. Two Blunderbusses for every Jump Shot. And Acid Bomb every chance you can get, often with a Napalm after every other ground application. The Flamethrower is not a kit designed around its auto-attack being the majority of its DPS, and the “meta” FT build hasn’t had Flame Jet as its focus ever. Before sigils worked with kits, it was actually better to use the FT solely for Flame Blast and then swap to the Rifle. I have old drafts of my original build if you don’t believe me.

Flame Jet is good for one thing, and that’s stacking the eff out of Sigil of Strength very quickly with ease.

The only auto-attack we have that’s actually worth legitimately spamming is the Bomb Kit’s, and I think we all know how well that goes in most dungeons that actually matter. Enjoy that PBAoE on Twilight Arbor F/U when you’re fighting at 1200 range.

Seetoo.9316:

And it’s kinda funny too, cuz that build is the one that will likely have a kit with untraited use seeing as you can not fully trait more than 2 kit (except for FT EG since they have been a pair since last year) more so if you also cycle your actual weapon. It got easier with a couple of FT/EG traits going down a tier, but what about bomb,grenade,and tool kits?

I’m not sure what “that build” is you’re talking about, but it’s definitely not mine.

The point about my build—and most others that use the FT—is that there are no wasted traits. Every trait I take benefits the FT, the EG, and my weapon in some way or another.

If there’s any fight that I cannot wield the Flamethrower, I can easily drop Juggernaut for Rifle Mod and Fireforged for Hair Trigger. I’ve put almost surgical precision in the trait distribution to craft the best setup possible for every patch, and I don’t think there’s a single aspect of the build left untraited. I completed every single dungeon path in the game with my build without ever wasting a single trait point adapting to each boss fight.

This thread was originally about the Flamethrower and I’ve structured the majority of my argument around how to optimally play it—as I think I’ve established I’ve a pretty good idea about that. So while you may have difficulty fitting in your multi-kit builds together, that’s an issue on your side of the fence and not mine—or ours (as FT users).

A trait like Juggernaut directly opposes that juggling behaviour, though. Both the effects require you to stay in the kit for a relevant amount of time to benefit from it – either to maintain the stacks or to defend from enemies with the improved toughness.
And that means you’ll also have to use the autoattack now and then.

i stay in FT all the time and use FT#1 as my main source of auto damage. i swap out of FT to use pistol and shield attacks.

FT#1 is not meant to be a source of “dps” in the sense that it isn’t meant to quickly kill your opponent. it is also a utility that can be combined with fast proccing sigils like on crit, or traits that produce procs.

it is bolstered by 10% when your foe is burning. and if your foe isn’t burning 100% of the time when using an FT….

you are doing it wrong…. bunker or not.

Manuhell.2759:

A trait like Juggernaut directly opposes that juggling behaviour, though. Both the effects require you to stay in the kit for a relevant amount of time to benefit from it – either to maintain the stacks or to defend from enemies with the improved toughness.
And that means you’ll also have to use the autoattack now and then.

Why do you say that? Juggernaut stacks Might once every 3 seconds. The amount of damage you gain rotating in Blunderbuss, Jump Shot, and Acid Bomb is worth a whole lot more than staying in the Flamethrower. You swap in, you swap out. You don’t stay in the Rifle or Elixir Gun.

Use Flame Jet when nothing else is available because of Juggernaut, but don’t feel tethered by it.

If ya don’t like it, don’t play it. But it can’t be useless seeing that most Engis I see in PvP use it. (Including me)

acedragonz.9387:

If ya don’t like it, don’t play it. But it can’t be useless seeing that most Engis I see in PvP use it. (Including me)

just because you can use your “builds” in a stunted environment with rules and restrictions…doesn’t make it good. It just makes it the least affected skills among others that would wipe the floor with you in wvw or even pve. I mean really, can you really affect the FT in pvp where most skills, traits, and abilities including stuff like food or sigils and jewlery are already stunted?

Reinforcments.5713:

acedragonz.9387:

If ya don’t like it, don’t play it. But it can’t be useless seeing that most Engis I see in PvP use it. (Including me)

just because you can use your “builds” in a stunted environment with rules and restrictions…doesn’t make it good. It just makes it the least affected skills among others that would wipe the floor with you in wvw or even pve. I mean really, can you really affect the FT in pvp where most skills, traits, and abilities including stuff like food or sigils and jewlery are already stunted?

HAhaahAHHaHaHahAhaHaHAHaHAhAHahahahahAHhA.

troll is trolly.

do you even lift, bro?

engineer isn’t for you.

nakoda.4213:

Reinforcments.5713:

acedragonz.9387:

If ya don’t like it, don’t play it. But it can’t be useless seeing that most Engis I see in PvP use it. (Including me)

just because you can use your “builds” in a stunted environment with rules and restrictions…doesn’t make it good. It just makes it the least affected skills among others that would wipe the floor with you in wvw or even pve. I mean really, can you really affect the FT in pvp where most skills, traits, and abilities including stuff like food or sigils and jewlery are already stunted?

HAhaahAHHaHaHahAhaHaHAHaHAhAHahahahahAHhA.

troll is trolly.

do you even lift, bro?

engineer isn’t for you.

Do you ever have anything constructive to say because, yeah other people did.

Not mad at all.

You came here posting as if you are entitled to something (btw, the typo in your title shows just how serious you are), and when the substantial portion of the community disagreed with you, illustrating not only why the things you don’t like are the way they are but also myriad other potential uses for it you, like a broken record, keep stomping your feet as if you’ve got an opinion that matters

You don’t. No one does, because it is just an opinion.

But your OPINION of the ft is not shared by everyone.

Post edited by moderator

Half of his opening post is about the autoattack and how much it is bad.
And others – me included – agree with that.

In my opinion, Flamethrower should have kittenty damage.

But on the otherhand, every damage tick should apply burn.