Guild Wars 2

Hi, i love the playstyle of the Engineer grenades, but when in pvp having to move and kite a lot, it makes putting down aoe targets very difficult and annoying, and every single grenade ability is ground aoe target.

Please could you make it so the grenade #1 ability is hard targetted like the flamethrowers, so we can at least have something reliable to spam while we are kiting around in pvp?

Thank you.

I don’t have a problem with it. Just use auto ground targeting.

Shaikhob.2863:

I don’t have a problem with it. Just use auto ground targeting.

How can there not be a problem with it? Any half decent player moves using their right mouse button which not only locks your cursor in place but makes the cursor disappear from the screen. You can not, while moving, aim your ground target without extreme difficulty.

You know you could choose where your mouse is before you start moving with it. Your mouse will stay in the same area when your moving. It’s not that hard once you get used to it.

Shaikhob.2863:

You know you could choose where your mouse is before you start moving with it. Your mouse will stay in the same area when your moving. It’s not that hard once you get used to it.

Ok, so with auto ground firing, and a locked invisible cursor, youre pretty much guessing at where its going to land?
And you think that is comfortable to play? Thats how im forced to play it right now and its very difficult and very annoying to play

Sounds like you need to L2P, I can grenade on the run like a boss. If grenades were hard targeted it would be to OP, I think they work fine they way they are intended. You can still run and kite with WASD while re-targeting your grenades when needed. IMO put the grenades away when your on the run, you have better options.

Basically you are bad and are asking the game to be dumbed down for you.

Nope.avi

I never said i cant play it, i said its very annoying to have to play the guessing game when no other class has to do so

Agreed. I love grenades but avoid using them in PvE because it gives me carpal tunnel spamming 1 repeatedly. The #1 should work like it does underwater.

fast-cast ground targeting + good mouse + skill

jasnall.6423:

Sounds like you need to L2P, I can grenade on the run like a boss. If grenades were hard targeted it would be to OP, I think they work fine they way they are intended. You can still run and kite with WASD while re-targeting your grenades when needed. IMO put the grenades away when your on the run, you have better options.

woofed.8936:

Basically you are bad and are asking the game to be dumbed down for you.

Nope.avi

Deltron.4592:

fast-cast ground targeting + good mouse + skill

Pretty much

It’s not that I am not for it. It would be a nice change. But you only have to use grenade kit underwater to understand that it would be completely broken. Especially in a power build at 80 with the 30 point trait.

It’d be like having a ranged 3-4k auto attack. To be honest the only thing that keeps grenade kit from being extremely OP as it is, is the fact you can counter it by moving. Already in keep / tower defense situations, and when your spamming grenades on people standing on objectives it’s extremely strong.

They’d need to seriously nerf the dps output to give us the #1 ability as an fixed target ability.

Karast and Shaikhob are correct, I would be dissapointed if any of the grenades were dumbed down.

Grenades are powerful but they’re also unbelievably tedious. I can’t use them for long periods of time because it drives me crazy.

* I like it as it is, and I think that having all skills as gtaoes on the Grenade Kit adds yet another fresh twist to engineer play.

* I think there wouldn’t be as many complaints if auto-attacks on kits were remembered

Stating “L2P” is hardly a substantive response that addresses that issue being discussed; that being said the OP only asked for the “1 Skill” to be an auto-attack, and this is a design mechanic flaw that has been recognized on these forums in the past in that your means of aiming disappears when you are holding the right mouse button to strafe and aim your camera (Which as the OP stated the majority of SPvP players use). So, the two mechanics are clashing with each other; it isn’t just the OP complaining.

To address the issue I don’t necessarily believe we need to turn it into an auto-atack; though here are some proposals I have:

-Turn 1 Skill into an auto-attack but reduce it to 1 grenade
-or speed up the travel time of the grenade animations
-or have a target marker that remains for the grenade kit showing us where we are aiming
-Make sure 1 Skill is locked into an auto-attack (This is good for all kits, but the grenade kit doesn’t even work when you manually lock it)
-or have an pre-set target in front of the caster when you aren’t using a cursor to aim; which would allow you to know a set distance your grenades will fly in front of you.

These are just some suggestions I brainstormed, what do you guys think?

Psy.6153:

Shaikhob.2863:

You know you could choose where your mouse is before you start moving with it. Your mouse will stay in the same area when your moving. It’s not that hard once you get used to it.

Ok, so with auto ground firing, and a locked invisible cursor, youre pretty much guessing at where its going to land?
And you think that is comfortable to play? Thats how im forced to play it right now and its very difficult and very annoying to play

There’s no guessing needed, when you hold down you’re right mouse button your cursor doesn’t move. Meaning if you hold that down with the cursor in the middle of your screen then your grenades will always be aiming at the center of your screen. A little practice with that and you’ll see it works perfectly fine. No need to change it.

I would like the option where if we turned on Auto Attack it stopped using ground targeting and would just auto attack the target we have selected. It’d basically work the way they do under water just auto tossing at the target. This way it’s entirely optional.

Using “third party” solutions (IE: programmable keyboards, game pads, and the like) don’t work because you still want to use other abilities.

This isn’t just for “noob” play either. There are many situations such as in WvW where the targets don’t render due to the number of players on screen and I can’t see where my targets are but I can tab onto them.

However I won’t lie, I have started to make another class cause mashing 1 (even with auto ground targeting on) has gotten super old super quick. Not to mention my hand hurts

i like the idea of auto attack for #1

but keep using ground targeting

I’m not suggesting there is a L2P issue on grenades but that to compensate for the change from gtaoe to ptaoe they would need to bring down the damage. Grenade is in a nice place right now. It has it’s issues but it’s our only real ranged weapon outside of mortar in WvW sieges. If the #1 skill became ptaoe those of us in power builds would lose a lot of effectiveness due to LoS, projectile trajectory, and the damage output reduction.

So I am not saying that I wouldn’t love for Grenade kit to function on land like it does in water, but as the kit stands I feel it’s out best and most balanced kit. It has a place in both power, and condition specs, and I would hate to lose that. I’d much rather see some of the other kits like tool, and flamethrower tweaked to be as versatile and desirable as grenade. Even with its current gtaoe finger crunching annoyance. I swear my pinky is never gonna be the same from mashing my 1 key with it while trying to spam the #1 ability and kite at the same time!

I would love this to be the case. having one button I did nto have to spam whilst in grenade kit woudl be awesome. Right now I have concerns over the “1” button on my razer naga…..

Love how grenades work underwater….wish that worked for at least one of the land based version.

Karast.1927:

I’m not suggesting there is a L2P issue on grenades but that to compensate for the change from gtaoe to ptaoe they would need to bring down the damage. Grenade is in a nice place right now. It has it’s issues but it’s our only real ranged weapon outside of mortar in WvW sieges. If the #1 skill became ptaoe those of us in power builds would lose a lot of effectiveness due to LoS, projectile trajectory, and the damage output reduction.

So I am not saying that I wouldn’t love for Grenade kit to function on land like it does in water, but as the kit stands I feel it’s out best and most balanced kit. It has a place in both power, and condition specs, and I would hate to lose that. I’d much rather see some of the other kits like tool, and flamethrower tweaked to be as versatile and desirable as grenade. Even with its current gtaoe finger crunching annoyance. I swear my pinky is never gonna be the same from mashing my 1 key with it while trying to spam the #1 ability and kite at the same time!

The main difference between under water and on land is simply that under water there is no arc in the grenade trajectory. Things run at you and grenades fly directly into them. Meanwhile on land, when you toss a grenade, it goes into an arc (depending on distance to target) which wouldn’t be changed by this. This means grenades would still be easily avoidable as they are now only without the incessant button mashing.

I like the skill shot aspect of grenades and it does allow them to have higher relative damage. If you buff them in ease of use, you’d have to nerf them in effectiveness. My suggestion to please both sides is to add a grandmaster trait in explosives called “Heat Seeking Grenades.”

Heat Seeking Grenades
Requires 30 points in Explosives
You only throw one grenade at a time, but your grenades travel very fast in direct lines and home on your target, exploding when they make contact.

This would make the grenade kit very spammable as it’s almost guaranteed to not miss unless blocked or dodged. For this trait you’d have to sacrifice some damage for some great utility. This would make chasing with grenades much easier since you don’t have to predict the path and deal with the long slow lob gesture.

Also, making it a grandmaster trait would mean you couldn’t have both this trait and the grenadier trait. People who like ground targeting can choose grenadier and be aoe beasts. People who want the utility of grenades in a simple to use package can choose heat seeking grenades.

JonnyBigBoss.2071:

Agreed. I love grenades but avoid using them in PvE because it gives me carpal tunnel spamming 1 repeatedly. The #1 should work like it does underwater.

Agreed. I might actually use them a lot more if it was less inconvenient.

Kodiak.3281:

The main difference between under water and on land is simply that under water there is no arc in the grenade trajectory. Things run at you and grenades fly directly into them. Meanwhile on land, when you toss a grenade, it goes into an arc (depending on distance to target) which wouldn’t be changed by this. This means grenades would still be easily avoidable as they are now only without the incessant button mashing.

This. You could easily circle strafe away from the grenades. We don’t need HOMING grenades, just ones that make it so you’re not constantly smashing the 1 keys.

I don’t understand the hate from asking for this change. It’s a Quality of Life change.
And by that, I mean the QoL of my 1 button on my keyboard, it’s being worn out like crazy.

So yes, change the dang thing and make it auto attack.

I love the grenade kit but I find my self rarely using it since it’s so tedious, requiring heavy extra spamming. There needs to be an option besides the current style to make the kit more available for wider engineer audience.

I think the skill #1 autoattack suggestion works well and does not even need a nerf for damage as long as the grenades will not be homing grenades. That way I dont think they’d be OP at all in PvP since you wont hit a moving target unless it’s close. If it needs to be nerfed, it could be made so that the AoE radius is smaller when toggling the autoattack on (still no homing grenades).

I’d love to use the grenade kit more, but dont want to buy a new mouse that is made of deldrimor steel just for the grenade spam

Sava.2381:

I love the grenade kit but I find my self rarely using it since it’s so tedious, requiring heavy extra spamming. There needs to be an option besides the current style to make the kit more available for wider engineer audience.

I think the skill #1 autoattack suggestion works well and does not even need a nerf for damage as long as the grenades will not be homing grenades. That way I dont think they’d be OP at all in PvP since you wont hit a moving target unless it’s close. If it needs to be nerfed, it could be made so that the AoE radius is smaller when toggling the autoattack on (still no homing grenades).

I’d love to use the grenade kit more, but dont want to buy a new mouse that is made of deldrimor steel just for the grenade spam

HEY NOW! … I would rather the grenades hit with minimal damage than not hit with a lot of damage. I think we can all agree with that. Maybe increasing the projectile speed and lowering the damage…?

No need to put down the guy, but I do agree I like how they work as is. They require crafty finger work and scale with your own ability to use them. That’ll separate the top par grenadiers from the rest. It’s quite fun in WvW spotting those differences.

I am fine with it the way it is. Normally, I wouldn’t post in opposition like this, but as was said before, if they were to give it a hard target, the power would likely be nerfed in compensation. I don’t want to lose power to fix a problem that’s easily overcome by keybinding. I have the #1 on my hotbar set to a mouse button and fast ground targeting enabled. I highly recommend doing something similar before you call for such a change.

Using a mouse to move + attempting to target with nades is highly annoying.

Grenades are good but i have to say it’s a bit tedious to use them.
Normally i’d like to see some sort of smart-targeting that uses the grenades on your target if you have one and gives you a targeting thing if you don’t have one.
However i don’t think that would work with the passive targeting we have right now.

It’s not difficult to use them its just a quality of life issue right there.

Keelin.5781:

It’s not difficult to use them its just a quality of life issue right there.

Difficult seems like an accurate word to describe using them. Oftentimes I would benefit from being able to angle my camera differently while simultaneously wanting to throw a grenade. Currently you can’t do this.

Dremlock.4608:

Difficult seems like an accurate word to describe using them. Oftentimes I would benefit from being able to angle my camera differently while simultaneously wanting to throw a grenade. Currently you can’t do this.

I suppose it depends on your interpretation of the word difficult, haha.

I meant to say :
Understanding how to use them and using them is not difficult in itself.
What could be considered ‘difficult’ is using them effectively without hurting your hands.

Ex Ludicrum.9358:

Stating “L2P” is hardly a substantive response that addresses that issue being discussed; that being said the OP only asked for the “1 Skill” to be an auto-attack, and this is a design mechanic flaw that has been recognized on these forums in the past in that your means of aiming disappears when you are holding the right mouse button to strafe and aim your camera (Which as the OP stated the majority of SPvP players use). So, the two mechanics are clashing with each other; it isn’t just the OP complaining.

To address the issue I don’t necessarily believe we need to turn it into an auto-atack; though here are some proposals I have:

-Turn 1 Skill into an auto-attack but reduce it to 1 grenade
-or speed up the travel time of the grenade animations
-or have a target marker that remains for the grenade kit showing us where we are aiming
-Make sure 1 Skill is locked into an auto-attack (This is good for all kits, but the grenade kit doesn’t even work when you manually lock it)
-or have an pre-set target in front of the caster when you aren’t using a cursor to aim; which would allow you to know a set distance your grenades will fly in front of you.

These are just some suggestions I brainstormed, what do you guys think?

These are all terrible. Grenades are purposefully given extra punch BECAUSE you manually target them. There’s no constructive way to approach an issue that doesn’t exist. OP just needs to L2P and there’s really no other answer.

Irascible.8210:

These are all terrible. Grenades are purposefully given extra punch BECAUSE you manually target them. There’s no constructive way to approach an issue that doesn’t exist. OP just needs to L2P and there’s really no other answer.

That’s just your opinion.
He made a perfectly constructive post unlike you.

I sort of agree with Irascible’s almost nonexistent argument and I am against the changing of grenades current attacking skill.
yes, it is hard as @#$% to say the least to aim, but I feel that when they hit, it is quite worth the effort. But I find I can only use it short range or medium-ish range, barely half of the full range available for grenades simply because it’s impossible to hit since everyone is constantly moving.
But I’m still happy with it the way it is, I can hit my grenades and they, for me do enough damage whether they hit 100% of the time or 80%. 1 grenade would reduce the aoe by heaps though, in my opinion. And I understand where you’re coming from that no. 1 skill should have an auto attack, but I like it without, don’t want it to be just stand somewhere with auto on 1 while you afk, which could also be exploited for recurring events.

I honestly think it depends on the grenade.

You need to ask yourself “what does ground targeting accomplish” and “is ground targeting necessary for the functionality of the skill”

And so, when you ask these questions, I am left with the thought that skills 1, 2 and 3 should be player targeted. With skills 4 and 5, and the toolbelt being ground targeted.

Why?

Skill 1- It does pure damage. What would making it ground targetted add? Nothing really. You toss it out so often that there is not an issue of missing. Ground targeting only accomplishes hitting your target, which can also be accomplished with player targeting.

Skill 2- Same as skill1, it is just pure damage with a bleed component. It is also on a short cooldown so again, it is not bad if you miss it. Ground targeting only accomplishes hitting your target, which can also be accomplished with player targeting.

Skill 3- Much like skill 2 and 3, its a short cooldown skill that accomplishes a simple role. Blinding your enemy. Is it necessary to ground target it? I don’t believe so, its simply a matter of hitting the enemy, ground targeting does not more accomplish this.

Skill 4- Due to the larger radius, and its component of slowing your enemy, I can infact see a reason to make it ground targeted to hit a group or to preempt a group, and it has a long cooldown to boot.

SKill 5- Due to its component of a combo field, I can absolutely see a need for ground targeting. It is a very integral part of the strength of fields.

And the toolbelt, simply because it has a long cooldown and the radius is deceptive. It hits more around the center of it, and rarely around the edges as it suggests.

Those are my thoughts anyway.

I think the usefulness of underwater shows how player targeting is useful.

Now, I’m not a keyboard turner so I might be biased, but I find that the current way of targeting is just annoying and silly.

The First Great Engineer Debate: Practical Grenade Kit Application

I’m glad to have been here to see this.

I dont get why people say the power would need to be nerfed if it was target locked.
You can still see the grenades coming a mile off, and lets be honest if they are constantly moving the grenade will miss anyway.
The power of them is not THAT strong, even the Guardian Gsword 1 skill crits for 2k+ area with a 30 power build

Psy.6153:

I dont get why people say the power would need to be nerfed if it was target locked.
You can still see the grenades coming a mile off, and lets be honest if they are constantly moving the grenade will miss anyway.
The power of them is not THAT strong, even the Guardian Gsword 1 skill crits for 2k+ area with a 30 power build

Agreed.
I think the grenade kit stands out as very powerful because , compared to the other engineer damage options, it IS.
However, compared to the damage other classes can bring, it is nothing special.

Change #1 to ….
“Homing Grenades”
/thread! ;-P

It would be convenient but I don’t want it. There are many ways to throw while kiting, most of them already mentioned. So don’t be lazy and try them.

Making them “heat seeking” is the stupidest idea I’ve read so far. Why? If we put aside the fact that they won’t feel like grenades, there is going to be some fluffy-kitten guy (self-censored) that will scream OP. And then they will nerf them to firecrackers. Underwater combat is different. They have to be single targeted because underwater environment is supposed to be 3D but your mouse is a 2D pointing system so there is no way for the game to know if you point right in front of you or further away and higher/lower in relation to your location.

I like my grenades. They have good damage, good range and good rate of fire. And I like the “Batman” feel of them. So I don’t want them ruined. Take the time and learn them. It will give you an edge. Trust me pal, if I can do it so can you.

I would like it to be like it was in one (maybe both?) BWEs. Which is where it did let you auto attack with the grenades (at least with the first one, not sure about the other 4 since I didn’t try it with them), when I had that ground target option set in the Options.
I also have a slight problem when using them while trying to move, particularly when it seems to throw them in a completely different area from where I was supposed to throw them (I currently have the fast cast ground spells set).

I also don’t get why people have a problem with them being auto thrown at the enemy, they already have the potential to scatter (ie. not all grenades hit the target).

Removing ground targeting would no longer allow grenades to hit targets out of LOS, this is especially important in WvW. When I ask myself “what does ground targeting accomplish” and “is ground targeting necessary for the functionality of the skill” the answer is a clear yes.

The simple solution is to buff rifle and pistol damage (especially single target) so people who want to PVE don’t feel “forced” to spam grenades in every situation.

I enjoy grenades as they are now, and find their use fun, different and challenging.

skullmount.1758:

I would like it to be like it was in one (maybe both?) BWEs. Which is where it did let you auto attack with the grenades (at least with the first one, not sure about the other 4 since I didn’t try it with them), when I had that ground target option set in the Options.

I don’t remember that but making it an option would solve pretty much all problems with it. Just add an option that makes all AOE spells centered on your current target if enabled.
This wouldn’t even make grenades overly powerful as the drawback is that you always aim directly below your target – making you miss when they move around. You also wouldn’t be able to use them as effectively in WvW against people on walls outside your LOS. But the point is that people would have the OPTION at least.

PokeyPenguin.6178:

The simple solution is to buff rifle and pistol damage (especially single target) so people who want to PVE don’t feel “forced” to spam grenades in every situation.

I suppose this would in fact also be a solution.

Its ground targeted cause its a grenade, no rocket launcher…

Bound skill#1 to your middle mouse with smartcast, and its easy

Just like COD

I love all the wow kids flooding the forums with their immature trash talk.
Back on topic : what Boererik says works perfectly fine, so hopefully that helps you OP.

Boererik.3459:

Its ground targeted cause its a grenade, no rocket launcher…

Bound skill#1 to your middle mouse with smartcast, and its easy

Just like COD

What does it being a grenade affect anything?

Grenades have a range of 1200, rifle shots have one of 1000.

I wouldn’t bring logic into this, I’d look more at mechanics and gameplay.

I mean, if it was all intended, bombs would kill you, rifle would have massive range, it would take forever to reload and so on…

All I want is for cursor not to vanish when holding right mouse button and/or Fas-Cast Ground Targeting ability to still have ability to have visible Ground Targeting option for reference. Ill be fine spam clicking Nades, just need bit more visual feedback.