Grenadier

Grenadier

in Engineer

Posted by: Brew Pinch.5731

Brew Pinch.5731

So, the whole extra ’nade on grandmaster trait thing, we ever gonna see that removed and added to the kit proper?

Seems a bit poor to force half a build for an entire weapon kit to be viable.

Same complaint as Elementalist attunement-specific traits/near forced 30 arcana and Ranger forced to take the 30 point Spirits Unbound trait for spirits, really.

Grenadier

in Engineer

Posted by: K U T M.4539

K U T M.4539

If I didnt have to go 30 into firearms for nades, I’d be OP.

Basic [BS] NSP/Mag

Grenadier

in Engineer

Posted by: Knote.2904

Knote.2904

If I didnt have to go 30 into firearms for nades, I’d be OP.

Could make it 3 nades base, decrease dmg by like 15%.

Make the trait a T2 trait and merge the range boost with the 10% dmg on explosives trait.

Then add a new awesome T3 trait.

Grenadier

in Engineer

Posted by: DesertRose.2031

DesertRose.2031

Grenadier is already pretty awesome, it’s basically +50% attack speed and +25% range.

What’s missing is another awesome Explosives grandmaster trait we could switch to if we don’t wanna use Grenade Kit anymore.

Grenadier

in Engineer

Posted by: Mif.3471

Mif.3471

The grenadier trait is horrible design. We’re meant to be a versatile class, yet we have to spend 30 points in to a trait line just to use a kit on a viable level.

Could you imagine the reaction if they, for example, forced Warriors to spec 30 points into a random trait line to get “Greatsword skills do 50% more damage”.

Tarnished Coast | Best cookies in all of Tyria

Grenadier

in Engineer

Posted by: TheGuy.3568

TheGuy.3568

The grenadier trait is horrible design. We’re meant to be a versatile class, yet we have to spend 30 points in to a trait line just to use a kit on a viable level.

Could you imagine the reaction if they, for example, forced Warriors to spec 30 points into a random trait line to get “Greatsword skills do 50% more damage”.

Pretty much they did and effed everything up while warrior figured out the new meta and got buffs. I do not want to be OP do you? Grenadier is a grandmaster trait that acts like what a grandmaster trait should be. BTW that means so good it is worth investing 30 points for much like HGH,

Kor The Cold Heart War
Wrekkes-Engineer Kore Rok Thief-Asraithe-Ele

Grenadier

in Engineer

Posted by: Mif.3471

Mif.3471

I really don’t see how that’s comparable to a flat 50% damage increase to the weapon/kit.

BTW that means so good it is worth investing 30 points for much like HGH,

There is a difference between “worth investing in” and an absolutely mandatory requirement to use a weapon/kit.

Tarnished Coast | Best cookies in all of Tyria

Grenadier

in Engineer

Posted by: Sarahfull.4930

Sarahfull.4930

It also adds more range which is great during fractals when you need to pull. Also it makes you out range the canons on the dregde lvl ( not the bomb side the other path)

Grenadier

in Engineer

Posted by: Manuhell.2759

Manuhell.2759

Grenadier is a grandmaster trait that acts like what a grandmaster trait should be. BTW that means so good it is worth investing 30 points for much like HGH,

No, it makes a mediocre kit good enough to be used, that’s the problem.
Grenades are terrible when not traited with Grenadier – they were clearly balanced with the trait in mind, and are subpar without it.

Grenadier

in Engineer

Posted by: Brew Pinch.5731

Brew Pinch.5731

The range should definitely stay on the trait, maybe add something else to make it even more valuable if that isn’t enough, but the kit is balanced around having the trait, making the trait mandatory.

If I didnt have to go 30 into firearms for nades, I’d be OP.

Explosives*
It certainly wouldn’t make the kit OP, you still sacrifice a lot by avoiding explosives. Power, condi duration, steel-packed powder, the range portion of grenadier, shrapnel, short fuse, etc…

The traits would just improve the kit instead of being mandatory for it’s use.

I personally wouldn’t even mind if they arbitrarily locked away 10-15% of the kits damage with the grenadier trait, but 33% plus the extra ’nade is just way too excessive when the kit is balanced for the trait.

Imagine any other weapon for any class in the game had a grandmaster trait “Increases range 25% Adds an additional hit per attack for an increase in damage of 33%” Then they reduced the weapons base damage by 33%.
Would there not be valid reason for concern?

(edited by Brew Pinch.5731)

Grenadier

in Engineer

Posted by: Manuhell.2759

Manuhell.2759

Imho, they should put 3 grenades per default, and making the trait increase the range and give some other bonus.Something like “You throw grenades 25% farther, travel time is reduced by x% and their damage is increased by y%.”

Where x and y can be something like 10% and 5% respectively.
That 5% increase could be deducted by the normal grenades eventually and it would still be a buff for the untraited one, since the problem lies in the untraited one being lackluster.

Grenadier

in Engineer

Posted by: ellesee.8297

ellesee.8297

yes grenades are one of the engi’s strongest kits but let’s add more to it!

#1 Engi NA and world first rank 80!
#1 Frandliest person NA!
http://www.twitch.tv/Livskis

Grenadier

in Engineer

Posted by: Manuhell.2759

Manuhell.2759

yes grenades are one of the engi’s strongest kits but let’s add more to it!

They’re also one of the worse ones when untraited, that’s the problem.
A suggestion like the one i proposed would lessen the gap between having Grenadier or not, while still giving some little bonuses to make it worth of the grandmaster trait spot.
The bonus damage would be detracted by the normal kit anyway, making its attack the same as the current grenadier when traited; at the same time, the untraited one would still see an increase in damage over the current one due of the third grenade, even if the damage is slightly reduced per each grenade.

The travel time would be the only real bonus introduced. And it is there because i had no idea what to add to make it nice enough for a grandmaster trait that impacts a single weapon, but not too strong over the untraited one.
After all, aside from the damage – that we can tweak just because we’ve added the third grenade – we can’t exactly touch other parameters of the base kit without risking making it weaker than the current one.
If you’ve got some other idea you’re free to post it, though.

Edit: i’ve also just thought about making them more precise/reducing their dispersion, but that too may be considered too strong.

(edited by Manuhell.2759)

Grenadier

in Engineer

Posted by: tattoohead.3217

tattoohead.3217

So let me get this straight… You don’t like investing 30 points into explosives for grenades to be viable, so you suggest we just get the 3rd grenade for free. Then you want to buff up the grandmaster trait… Making us invest 30 points in explosives anyways.

If your just asking for a but then come out and say it. To me it makes perfect sense that a grenade engineer would need to putt 30 points into the explosives tree to get the most from his/hers gasp EXPLOSIONS!

And before you claim the kit is broken without our master trait take a look at our other kits. The only kit that beats grenades (without trait) would be bomb kit, and that’s a melee range ability. Throwing 2 grenades is right about the same damage as an untrained FT and more damage than EG or Tool kit.

I think what you mean to say is without grenadier the grenade kit is not our most powerful kit… And that’s not ok with you.

Grenadier

in Engineer

Posted by: Manuhell.2759

Manuhell.2759

So let me get this straight… You don’t like investing 30 points into explosives for grenades to be viable, so you suggest we just get the 3rd grenade for free. Then you want to buff up the grandmaster trait… Making us invest 30 points in explosives anyways.
If your just asking for a but then come out and say it. To me it makes perfect sense that a grenade engineer would need to putt 30 points into the explosives tree to get the most from his/hers gasp EXPLOSIONS!

A kit shouldn’t need a grandmaster trait to be viable. It should be viable even when untraited, and good when traited.
Our traits with them are an oddity in that sense – no other class has got grandmaster traits that buff a single utility. They usually buff entire categories with relevant, but limited buffs.
And imho, there lies the problem with grenadier. To make it worthwhile they had to make the trait really good, but also balanced the kit over having that trait, thus making the untraited one really bad.
They should have made it a master trait instead, so that they were allowed to give a minor buff compared to the current one. Or buffing other things beside grenades too if they still wanted it as a grandmaster, but it wouldn’t make sense with the name of the trait then.

And before you claim the kit is broken without our master trait take a look at our other kits. The only kit that beats grenades (without trait) would be bomb kit, and that’s a melee range ability. Throwing 2 grenades is right about the same damage as an untrained FT and more damage than EG or Tool kit.

On the other side, grenades at middle/long range suffer from dispersion, meaning that not all the ones you throw will necessarily hit, especially with moving targets. And are mainly a skill shot, since we are manually targeting them.
So, yeah, they have the potential of doing the damage you’re talking about, but that doesn’t mean they’ll necessarily do it.

Also, it isn’t like the last three kits you listed shine for their damage capabilities…

I think what you mean to say is without grenadier the grenade kit is not our most powerful kit… And that’s not ok with you.

No, it is that it is really terrible. And for a class that already pays a versatility tax on their main weapons due to kits, i can’t understand why that should be fine – if i’m always penalized due to kit, make them always viable even when untraited.

Grenadier

in Engineer

Posted by: Carighan.6758

Carighan.6758

I’d just remove the trait. Period.

And then rebalance the skills on their own. The way I see it, the grande kit is supposed to be balanced against the other kits in damage (ignoring the targeting for a minute) by being so spread-fire.
Only, with the +1 grenade throws, that spread is actually decreased a lot since you’ll hit such a larger percentage of the target area.

So I’d beef them up, but in turn take the +1 grenade away. In their stead, new trait to replace the F-skill of Bomb- and Grenade-Kit with a “Drop Bomb/Grenade Kit”, puts a 30s lasting kit on the ground with 10 charges which others can use to get the same weapon skills. 60s CD or so.

The strength of heart to face oneself has been made manifest. The persona Carighan has appeared.

Grenadier

in Engineer

Posted by: krixis.9538

krixis.9538

again with people crying about this trait ?

the greenadier trait has huge synergy with the explosives tree

1. you get the dmg increase traits and the vuln stacking minor traits.
2. you have the power increase and condition duration increase bonus
3. if your going to focus on grenades most of the time u will have 30 points in explosives esp if you are a zerker greenade engineer

now why do we have this trait ? its for ppl whop want to focus on grenades as main damage source so they get this trait.

its no differnt to speccing juggernought for flame thrower or HGH

and now my second point

this game is all about BUILDS and how the BUILDS change/ increase the effeciveness of weapons / kits.

if you want powerfull grenades u take the trait. if u dont want to take the trait stop crying and use something else.

just because a few ppl on forums dont like it does not meen every engineer out there agrees with you.

now some 1 said its ment to be “balances” against other kits well why dont u try unlearning every single trait then use each kit with no traits and naked. im sure you will see it is infact balanced with other kits.

people use juggernought for flame thrower and also that trait in alchamy for 15% more dmg does that meen we need to nerf that trait ?

people use HGH for condi grenades do we need to nerf that trait to ?

its time you all learnt what “synergy” is and how it works in mmos.

this is after all why we have traits to begin with right ? to empower a certain aspect of that class ?

Desolation EU
Fractal lvl 80 – 126 AR

Grenadier

in Engineer

Posted by: Brew Pinch.5731

Brew Pinch.5731

now some 1 said its ment to be “balances” against other kits well why dont u try unlearning every single trait then use each kit with no traits and naked. im sure you will see it is infact balanced with other kits.

I do in fact I use most weapons without any weapon specific traits on any of my builds/professions. It is completely viable to do so and I see a lot of success in tPvP.

its no differnt to speccing juggernought for flame thrower or HGH

Juggernaut is neither grandmaster nor mandatory for FT builds and HGH is actually a perfect example of a grandmaster trait that isn’t required for any weapons viability.

You actually completely miss the point.

No 30 point traits (other than those I mentioned in the OP) that I have noticed are absolutely required for using the kit/weapon/utility.

No-one has an issue with traits improving a kit/weapon/utilities. The issue, which has been brought up time and time again on these forums and in others, is that this specific trait is mandatory if you plan to use grenades.
The kit is just much worse than a base weapon without it, ’nades actually do less damage than Flame Jet untraited without Grenadier and that is one of our weakest abilities. This, of course, is before you even get into how it is much harder to actually hit a target with grenades and even more so without the extra grenade.

This isn’t a thread rabidly demanding buffs, nor is it demanding immediate change. We just want to see the base kit to be viable without the trait some time in the future, thus we are pointing out why and explaining that we are comfortable with the standard model of locking 10-15% of the damage away being used instead.

(edited by Brew Pinch.5731)

Grenadier

in Engineer

Posted by: Alkaholic.3875

Alkaholic.3875

I’m not sure if I get you right. U want untraited nades to be 3 nades but less powerful, slower travel, less range. But then someone would spec into it to get the full benefits. Why would anyone want a new 3 untraited nades that are equal to dmg of the current 2 untraited nades. What benefit would it being 3 give u?

Grenadier

in Engineer

Posted by: Manuhell.2759

Manuhell.2759

He would just like to lessen the gap between traited and untraited ones. As it stand now, since it adds a grenade, you’re basically doing 50% more (potential) damage. And the kit is balanced upon having the trait, not the opposite – so instead of having a viable kit that gets good with the trait, we’ve a terrible kit that gets viable with the trait.

But as i said above, the problem is another, imho – if you put a grandmaster trait that affects a single utility, it must be really good for people to get it; but at the same time, you can’t make it so that the utility gets overpowered when traited…so what they did was move too much power into the trait.
If you see all the other classes, we’re the only one with a similar problem. No other class has got traits that buff a single utility.
Imho, what they should do should transfer some power back to the kit (put it 3 grenades from the start, then reduce the damage per grenade of 5% and put it back via the trait, along with the increased range like now) and make it a master trait. Same for the bombs one, and put other traits that buff categories in their place as grandmaster ones (this would also free slots for gadget traits, who are lacking, by the way).

Grenadier

in Engineer

Posted by: Alkaholic.3875

Alkaholic.3875

Signet of the Beastmaster, Spirit Unbound, Unsuspecting Foe…

Grenadier

in Engineer

Posted by: Manuhell.2759

Manuhell.2759

Signet of the Beastmaster, Spirit Unbound, Unsuspecting Foe…

The first two refers to ALL the signets and ALL the spirits respectively.
The last one isn’t even a grandmaster trait, so i assume you just wrote the wrong trait.
There are a couple ones affecting the class mechanic, but as far as utilities go, it is as i told above.

Grenadier

in Engineer

Posted by: Brew Pinch.5731

Brew Pinch.5731

I’m not sure if I get you right. U want untraited nades to be 3 nades but less powerful, slower travel, less range.

I would like to see:

  • Three grenades on the base kit
  • Range increase remain on the trait

Thus making the kit viable without the trait

I understand that this might make the trait too undesirable for a grandmaster, so I have suggested the standard +10-15% damage on the traits could be used to beef it up. (This damage taken from the base kit obviously, not actually being a buff).

I actual never mentioned a rate of travel increase here myself.

I used to think it was desperately needed (although I would have suggested it be applied to the base kit), and I have written on these forums about it before, but honestly the more videos I compare to my own gameplay, the more I think that my particular issue is influenced most heavily by my ping (250+ ms), something which can’t be helped.

Although we are seeing all of the slowest projectile speeds increased over the months, and I would not be surprised if Grenades are eventually looked at too.

Anyway, that aside; Yes, the base kit remains weaker than with the trait but it is at least viable, which is entirely the point.
No buffs or nerfs, just a slight shift in power that would make a lot of people really happy.

(edited by Brew Pinch.5731)

Grenadier

in Engineer

Posted by: ellesee.8297

ellesee.8297

the range increase isn’t what makes grenade kit powerful

#1 Engi NA and world first rank 80!
#1 Frandliest person NA!
http://www.twitch.tv/Livskis