Guild Wars 2

tl;dr:

- I do not believe elixir gun should benefit from elixir-specific traits, although I do agree it is a strong buff to the elixir gun.

- This takes away the unique benefits that were previously specific to elixir builds (that is, builds that focus on using actual elixirs).

- The engineer profession has less incentive to run more elixirs on the utility bar, some of which were already difficult to justify, due to the convenient three-in-one elixir package provided by the elixir gun. This reduces the feasible build diversity and more firmly situates the same sort of builds engineers have been using for the past two-ish years.

- The reality of competitive/viable “kitless” builds becomes even dimmer than it previously was, which I do not believe is a positive move for obtaining novel build variety.

Summary of suggestions:

- Elixir gun is no longer affected by alchemical tinctures or HGH.

- Inversion enzyme now reduces the cooldown of acid bomb, super elixir, and regenerating mist by 20%

- (MAYBE) Inversion enzyme now also improves the effectiveness of acid bomb, super elixir, and regenerating mist by 20%

1. “Wow, another ignorant loser complaining about buffs.”

First off, I know if is a bit crappy of me to complain about such a buff. I do think it is quite good for a buff, and I expect elixir gun to get a lot of play now as a new meta bakes.

But I was a bit surprised that such a change actually went through. I recall that this sort of thing was present in the beta builds, but was taken out at launch. This often confused people because the “elixir” gun didn’t benefit from “elixir” traits. In fact, the tooltips for some of the skills were never updated to reflect the fact that they did not function with those traits (i.e. have the “elixir” label removed).

However, it seemed to be a justifiable change because the elixir gun is a “kit” and is to be made to work with “kit” traits (i.e. speedy kits, kit refinement). Having it work with both “kit” and “elixir” traits would be double-dipping.

But now it seems that this sort of justification is no longer present, although I’m not sure as to the specific reason for this. My best guess is that there was no longer room for the elixir gun cooldown reduction trait, so they had some of the skills benefit from the recharge reduction on HGH. I agree that it makes thematic sense for “elixir” traits to affect the “elixir” gun (though ironically “ELIXIR F” does not benefit form the traits), but I feel the justification that the elixir gun was a kit and shouldn’t benefit from those traits was sound.

This, in part, has to do with an inherent issue in the engineer where it is nigh impossible to be competitive without running at least one kit.

The only other reason for the abandonment of this convention that I can think of is that the devs were tired of people posting questions about why the tooltips for some skills were “elixirs” but didn’t benefit from elixir traits. Thus, they just decided to make them work that way despite the fact they had nearly THREE WHOLE YEARS to change the tooltips. But that seems to be an unlikely possibility.

Regardless of these changes being a buff to engineer, I feel they are a negative change for the profession because they are detrimental to elixir builds.

2. “Do you even queue, bro? Elixir builds are back.”

No, I don’t think so. Let me attempt to demonstrate (excuse the use of an outdated build tool, I mean to demonstrate the utility skill choice primarily)…

THIS is an elixir build: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fdEQJAqalcTp6qlXx+KkfNyahAyOjEdypR/YgBA-TFyCABA8ABsU9HsUidxJCIP9EZp8Qv9HGTJIpAgYaE-w

THIS is a more serious elixir build: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fdEQJAqalcTp6qlYx+KseNCbBBqNI6jEln85DEgkC-TFyCABA8ABsU9HsUidxJCIP9EZp8Qv9HGTJIpAgYaE-w

Now both those are condi, but you can make power variants too, obviously.

Now to compare…

THIS is NOT an elixir build: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fdEQFAUlUUp6qlcxdLseRCbBNqxAqNI6NWln8xIGAA-TFyCABAcABsU9HsUidxBCIPNEZp8Qv9HGTJIpAgYaE-w

THIS is also NOT an elixir build: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fdEQJAqelUUpPrlcxEL0eNCbBNqxI6NWln85IGgkC-TFyCABAcABsU9HsUidxBCIPNEZp8Qv9HGTJIpAgYaE-w

Again, sorry for using the outdated editor, just trying to demonstrate the utilities and overall trait decisions.

So what exactly is the difference here? Well, it’s simple. The first two builds are highly specialized in elixirs, taking multiple elixir-specific traits, and running full or almost full elixirs on their skills selections. It makes sense to call these “elixir builds” because they use elixir skills and take traits to specialize in those elixirs. These builds have not “come back”, they’ve been niche builds that were once primarily used in roaming or in PvP before healing “turret” ascended to its position as the supreme ruler of engineer healing skills.

In comparison, the other two builds take very few traits that specialize in elixirs (i.e. HGH only) and have very few or no elixirs on the build. It doesn’t make sense to call these ones “elixir” build because they’re highly focused on not using elixirs and most of their build selections do not improve upon those elixirs.

The changes to the elixir gun facilitate the second variety of builds quite nicely, but I do not consider them to be true “elixir builds” due to their highly diluted specialization into elixirs.

3. “Yeah, well… you know, that’s just like, uh… semantics, man”.

It might appear that way, but let me try and do my best to explain why this is important.

Prior to the changes, an elixir build enjoyed certain benefits that were not as easily available to other engineer builds. In particular, the cleaning formula 409 and HGH traits allowed for an alternative source of condition clearing and the potential for high boon generation for the engineer and allies, particularly might. This provided a style of build that was different than the common multi-kit builds that highly dominated all areas of engineer gameplay.

In particular, this allowed skills like elixir H to maintain some semblance of relevance as a healing skill because it gained additional benefits via the traits that provided some alternative to healing “turret”. While the elixir skills have generally not been competitive as other builds in recent times, you could make them fill a niche of sorts that a more “proper” build could do so as adequately.

However, with the current changes that have gone in regarding elixir gun skills being affected by elixir traits, the benefits that were formerly exclusive to “elixir builds” can now be accessed by something that is not an elixir.

So what’s the problem? The problem here is that these “elixir builds” are made less effective and less unique because the elixir gun now encroaches on their territory. In particular, it can be more optimal to run the elixir gun, a “kit”, because it gives you access to three separate “elixir” skills that can be on lower cooldowns than actual elixir skills (i.e. elixir U’s cooldown compared to super elixir, acid bomb, and healing mist). As such, it is possible to generate more might stacks quicker for both the engineer and their allies. This is in addition to the other benefits elixir gun already enjoys, such as access to a stronger auto-attack than on pistol, powerful allied condition clearing, as well as the fact that it provides access to the weapon swap mechanic that the engineer does not inherently have.

So while the change that makes elixir gun skills work with elixir specific traits is an overall buff for the engineer, it is not a buff for “elixir builds”. If nothing else, it makes them pigeonholed into running elixir gun to maximize the benefits of their trait choices.

Now running the elixir gun does mean you have to give something up (i.e. elixir S), so elixirs can still provide some novel form of functionality. But the elixir gun synergizes much better with the elixir traits than any actual elixir does. It is literally three elixirs in one, and each of those elixirs has lower cooldowns than most other actual elixir skills.

Certain elixirs are already very difficult to slot into any sort of build, particularly elixirs U, R, and C. Additionally, elixir H really only had novel usage in an elixir build since healing “turret” provided much better healing, condition clearing, and team support than elixir H always did. Now all these skills will be even more difficult to justify in the utility slots because elixir gun is a very attractive three-in-one prospect that will eat one of the utility slots.

Even worse, in the case of elixir H, the benefits provided by the elixirs traits are recouped in the multiple “elixirs” present in the elixir gun if the engineer decides not to run elixir H. Additionally, healing “turret” now synergizes extra well in one of these new “elixir” builds because acid bomb can be used easily in the water field for extra healing. As such, elixir H has been shoved more or less completely out of the niche it had pre-specializations, and it’s more optimal for “elixir builds” to run healing “turret” and elixir gun, neither of which are true “elixirs”.

4. “Why don’t you git gud and learn how to play the game properly?”

The issue I have with this is that the engineer is pigeonholed into running kits to be competitive in any form. PvE? Kits. PvP? Kits. WvW? Kits. No one talks about engineer builds without talking about kits. So much conversation around balance for the engineer deals with kits. Kits this, kits that. Kits, kits, kits. Engineers can’t even perform a weapon swap mechanic to proc sigils unless they are using a kit, so they’re locked out of some universal base functionality that everyone else has inherent access to without making certain build decisions. Not only that, but kits are a source of permanent swiftness that is often too difficult to pass up due to the other poor mobility options (although to be fair, the specialization changes brought in nice alternatives).

I want to believe there’s a reality that contains competitive builds (in all three game types) that do not need run any kits, but this change to the elixir gun has gone in the opposite direction. Specifically, it promotes engineers to run more or less the same utility skills that they’ve been running for the past two-ish years, but perhaps “spicing it up” by taking elixir B instead of slick shoes or rocket boots. Thus people claim “elixir builds” are back, when they’re just using variants of the same kit-based builds.

It’s a similar reason as to why I was sad to see turret builds hit so hard. They were the only kitless build that truly worked (at least to a degree) in a competitive game mode, but that was eventually given the axe. Everyone went back to their multi-kit, healing “turret” builds.

How are you supposed to promote build diversity where you take a unique aspect of a particular build – in this case elixir build’s ability for might generation and condition clearing – and making that available to more conventional builds with a lower opportunity cost? Non-elixir builds now take elixir gun with the HGH trait and call themselves “elixir builds” even though they’ve made barely any elixir-related decisions outside of one trait (though to be fair there’s only one actual elixir specific trait now). They may not even run any elixirs and all, and in many cases they only run one actual elixir.

This is made even odder by the fact that elixir gun already has an elixir gun specific trait. If the concern here was that the cooldown reduction for elixir gun skills was no longer available, why not just tack it on to the inversion enzyme trait?

Instead, to fully specialize in the elixir gun, you actually need to take two traits (that are on the same line) instead of just one, but the other kits only have one trait. In fact, HGH extends the duration of acid bomb and super elixir to make them even more powerful without even considering the might stacks they generate (i.e. more damage and healing ticks). It seems to be an inconsistency in the overall design philosophy. Where’s flamethrower’s trait that reduces its cooldowns and the effectiveness of its abilities that exists alongside juggernaut?

5. “Another mouth-breather flapping his gums with no suggestions, how typical.”

I would be lying if I said I think the change should simply be fully reverted. It is a good buff for engineer, and I think having the cooldown reduction on elixir skills is important to preserve. However, I do feel it is detrimental to actual elixir builds. As such, I would propose the following suggestions:

- Elixir gun skills are no longer affected by elixir-specific traits (i.e. alchemical tinctures, HGH)

- Inversion enzyme now reduces the cooldown of acid bomb, super elixir, and healing mist by 20%

- (MAYBE) Inversion enzyme now also improves the effectiveness of acid bomb, super elixir, and healing mist by 20%

I say maybe on the last part because I think that was a strong and unnecessary buff to the elixir gun, although it can still be a bit early to tell how it will work out until we have an established meta.

In any case, this would allow the elixir gun to maintain its reduced cooldowns and possibly enhanced skill effects without encroaching on the territory of elixir builds, stealing their functionality and doing it better.

At any rate, thanks if you ended up reading all of that. I’d be curious if anyone else is like minded, or if popular opinion requires that I simply pack up my thoughts and conform without further questions.

I think this would be one small step back towards making kitless builds a future possibility, while also preserving the uniqueness that elixir builds have been known for in the past.

3 elixir builds are low skill floor specs that don’t belong in the meta any more than turrets do.

Kits are the backbone of every build across the game because functionally they’re among the highest skill cap builds in the game warranting their strength.

ive been running 4 elixirs with mortar for wvw. probably going to swap H for HT, but it’s a nice spec. loads of might, utility boons, stealth, invn, and a reflect. mortar auto with quickness and might is beast mode.

before you call me scrub im still running 3kit condi so there is my e(ngineer)peen.

I don’t think so, it just makes sense that the elixir gun works with elixir traits. It is its whole concept to be a weapon spreading elixirs around you. Actually I’m thinking they didn’t follow the road seriously enough. It seems like the condi remove of alchemistical tinctures don’t work with the elixir gun attacks, which would have a perfect synergy with Inversion enzyme.

As I can see, anet wants to make everything “high concept” and I love it that way. I really like to play that way too, I’m running builds with at least 1 kit, if I run an elixir build I would use flamethrower or elixir gun, because it fits the theme as the “most achemical” kits. I would have much fun running a full support elixir build by using elixir gun for tons of condition converting and buffing my team with boons.

Phineas Poe.3018:

3 elixir builds are low skill floor specs that don’t belong in the meta any more than turrets do.

Kits are the backbone of every build across the game because functionally they’re among the highest skill cap builds in the game warranting their strength.

Are they really that high skill cap though? It’s very rare to find engineers who don’t run kit-based builds, and newer players are always guided directly to them.

Not only that, but engineers that do run elixirs only run a select few elixirs. Things like elixir U, C, and R have basically disappeared from the game completely. If they’re not supposed to be taken seriously, why even have them?

Furthermore, is that how the utilities are actually supposed to be implemented? A class of “low skill floor” utilities that aren’t to be used in any serious type of gameplay? What’s the point? Why even try to balance those skills then if they’re supposed to be irrelevant to anyone who wants to take the game seriously?

The reason I supported turret builds is because they were one of the only kitless builds that was actually workable (to an extent) in a competitive environment. I wasn’t opposed to nerfing them, but they’ve virtually disappeared from the game since. I don’t see how it’s a positive thing for the game when you spend a lot of time making and balancing all these skills, and then saying “here, now only run these select few because those are the only ones that are meant to be good”.

If that’s truly the case, they might as well just remove half the skills in the game. It’s the same issue I had with GW1, literally hundreds of skills that were completely worthless. What was the point?

Kodama.6453:

I don’t think so, it just makes sense that the elixir gun works with elixir traits. It is its whole concept to be a weapon spreading elixirs around you. Actually I’m thinking they didn’t follow the road seriously enough. It seems like the condi remove of alchemistical tinctures don’t work with the elixir gun attacks, which would have a perfect synergy with Inversion enzyme.

It makes sense thematically, yes. I agree. But I don’t agree that it makes sense functionally. They could have simply called it “chemical gun” instead of “elixir gun” while leaving the functionality the same.

There are already elixirs that are very difficult to justify using a utility slot for, why make it even harder by implementing a three-in-one elixir package at the same opportunity cost?

Yamsandjams.3267:

Not only that, but engineers that do run elixirs only run a select few elixirs. Things like elixir U, C, and R have basically disappeared from the game completely. If they’re not supposed to be taken seriously, why even have them?

In my opinion these 3 elixirs got much more attractive after the patch. Vigor got nerfed, so the endurance recharge by elixir r is really nice to get extra dodges. Conditions got a huge buff and even elixir gun and ht can have a hard time removing them all. So this way elixir c may get more used too. And the biggest buff goes to elixir u, because it got removed its cons (25% more damage on you or no endurance) and got buffs instead (5 stacks of might or fury). That’s really nice if you want to burst something or someone down.

Kodama.6453:

Yamsandjams.3267:

Not only that, but engineers that do run elixirs only run a select few elixirs. Things like elixir U, C, and R have basically disappeared from the game completely. If they’re not supposed to be taken seriously, why even have them?

In my opinion these 3 elixirs got much more attractive after the patch. Vigor got nerfed, so the endurance recharge by elixir r is really nice to get extra dodges. Conditions got a huge buff and even elixir gun and ht can have a hard time removing them all. So this way elixir c may get more used too. And the biggest buff goes to elixir u, because it got removed its cons (25% more damage on you or no endurance) and got buffs instead (5 stacks of might or fury). That’s really nice if you want to burst something or someone down.

On paper, yes, but in practice?

I could see build running one elixir, yes. They have novel functionality. That’s what is kind of going around a bit now. Healing turret, two kits, supply crate (usually), and then one freebie which is either another kit or something else that brings you a certain utility. That freebie could easily be one of elixirs C, U, or R, but could you feasbily see a situation where all utility slots are occupied by elixirs? Especially when elixir gun is a three-in-one package?

Conditions are more powerful, yes, but they also expire quicker, so you might not have time to pop elixir C, whereas it was perhaps useful before for clearing 2 minutes of poison and cripple.

Elixir U is undoubtedly better, but what are you going to burst with? The kit that you didn’t slot in order to take elixir U?

And elixir R will be nice for the endurance regen in light of the vigor nerf, but isn’kitten bit counter-intuitive to take this over a kit that allows you to proc sigil of energy and invigorating speed quite easily?

Giving up a kit for each of those elixirs is a very big opportunity cost. That’s why they’ve been rarely run before. Making elixir gun a three-in-one elixir package without increasing the opportunity cost does not directly incentivize someone run more elixirs since they can get their might stacking, duration, and cooldown boosts while also having the utility present in the elixir gun.

I disagree wholeheartedly.

Each traitline should have a synergistic kit.
Explosives has THREE,
Firearms has flamethrower
Inventions should be medkit, but that’s kinda wonky to be honest
Alchemy has elixer gun
and tools has the tool kit.

The fact that Elixir gun was not synergistic with the alchemy line in the old system was just stupid.

Especially given that the 4 and 5 skills have been defined as Elixirs this whole time without benefiting from any such traits, and they are basically equivalent to toolbelt thrown elixers. (despite the name, Elixer F does not, so I think it should stay unsynergized with the traits)

If you think that the Elixer gun is making Elixer H less relevent, I think that’s more a problem with Elixer H than the E-gun. (I vote we give it resistance)

That said, Healing Mist toolbelt procing HGH is a bit too much (Plus it’s not an “elixer”)
Acid Bomb and Super Elixir should stay synergistic, and getting two elixers for the price of one with the elixer gun then lets it work in an HGH build while being no better or worse than any other elixer for benefiting from HGH traits.

And Double Dipping on Kit and Elixer traits isn’t a problem at all. Kits aren’t even really a skill type so much as a mechanic. And Engineer isn’t the only class to get that sort of thing. You can Triple dip mesmer trait benifits using “Affects Illusions” “Affects Phantasms” and the trait for the weapon producing the phantasm. (Double cooldown reduction on a weapon’s phantasm skill, with buffs to that phantasm)

Elixir Gun benefiting from HGH, is just a benefit to engineers who want to run an elixer build and still be able to have ONE kit so they can weapon swap and have more options, yet still want to use the thematically relvant kit. Otherwise you’ll just have more HGH builds leaning towards Grenades or Mortar or something else.

Arioso.8519:

The fact that Elixir gun was not synergistic with the alchemy line in the old system was just stupid.

Technically it did due to deadly mixture, but that was a very lackluster trait that no one ran.

And the elixir gun already has it’s own trait to make it better, I don’t see why it needs a second one. I agree it fits thematically, but not functionally. In fact, I’d even suggest that inversion enzyme is not good enough in it’s current form in that the elixir gun loses things like it’s cooldown reduction and increased super elixir duration if you don’t run HGH. Why not just port those qualities over to inversion enzyme and keep the elixir gun trait as one trait?

Arioso.8519:

Especially given that the 4 and 5 skills have been defined as Elixirs this whole time without benefiting from any such traits, and they are basically equivalent to toolbelt thrown elixers. (despite the name, Elixer F does not, so I think it should stay unsynergized with the traits)

They should have removed the elixir labels from those nearly three years ago. It’s just something they never did for no reason. But I’m confused as to why you think a skill with “elixir” in the name should not synergize with elixir-specific traits simply because it has never had that label associated with it. If they had acutally corrected the tooltips properly, would you agree that none of the skills should synergize with elixir gun? This is also in spite of the fact that elixir F did actually, at one point, synergize with elixir specific traits.

Arioso.8519:

If you think that the Elixer gun is making Elixer H less relevent, I think that’s more a problem with Elixer H than the E-gun. (I vote we give it resistance)

This is true, at least in part. I believe the true problem here is healing “turret”, whose functionality is really a glorified water bomb and not an actual turret. It is difficult for the other healing skills to currently have a place with the healing “turret” in it’s current form, although the problem is exacerbated by making elixir-specific benefits available in a convenient package that happens to synergize quite nicely with healing “turret”.

Arioso.8519:

That said, Healing Mist toolbelt procing HGH is a bit too much (Plus it’s not an “elixer”)
Acid Bomb and Super Elixir should stay synergistic, and getting two elixers for the price of one with the elixer gun then lets it work in an HGH build while being no better or worse than any other elixer for benefiting from HGH traits.

But it is labelled as an elixir as far as the tool belt is concerned. One could argue acid bomb is also not an elixir since it’s an acid, whereas elixir F is an elixir but doesn’t get the synergy. The only things that are actually “elixirs” are the elixir utility skills, or at least that was previously the case.

Arioso.8519:

And Double Dipping on Kit and Elixer traits isn’t a problem at all. Kits aren’t even really a skill type so much as a mechanic. And Engineer isn’t the only class to get that sort of thing. You can Triple dip mesmer trait benifits using “Affects Illusions” “Affects Phantasms” and the trait for the weapon producing the phantasm. (Double cooldown reduction on a weapon’s phantasm skill, with buffs to that phantasm)

I don’t think it’s worth performing cross-class comparisons in this case, although you’re correct in saying this is not a unique thing to the engineer. However, your comment on how kits are more mechanics than skills is part of the issue here. In many ways, the kits are treated like weapons, not like extra skills. There has always been a great disparity between the opportunity costs and benefits of kits and non-kits, so much so that kits have always been the dominant force in the game.

Now perhaps that’s just the way it’s going to be. I just don’t think it should be that way, and I don’t see why it’s to anyone’s benefit for it to be that way. Obviously this issue is of a larger, global scope than the more specific one I was trying to highlight here though.

Arioso.8519:

Elixir Gun benefiting from HGH, is just a benefit to engineers who want to run an elixer build and still be able to have ONE kit so they can weapon swap and have more options, yet still want to use the thematically relvant kit. Otherwise you’ll just have more HGH builds leaning towards Grenades or Mortar or something else.

That’s at the core of my issue though. Why does the buff to elixir builds involve slotting less elixirs and taking a kit? If I’m supposed to run kits, why can’t it be build into the profession inherently? Why should I even be allowed to select no kits on my utility bar if it’s not the proper way to play the game?

I know the buff is good. In fact it’s quite good. I feel a bit silly complaining about it. But I don’t think it helps push variety out into whatever meta comes out of these specialization changes. If anything, I want to see the ability to use less kits without sacrificing so much, and the elixir gun changes seem to go in the opposite direction, at least from my perspective.

Yamsandjams.3267:

And the elixir gun already has it’s own trait to make it better, I don’t see why it needs a second one. I agree it fits thematically, but not functionally. In fact, I’d even suggest that inversion enzyme is not good enough in it’s current form in that the elixir gun loses things like it’s cooldown reduction and increased super elixir duration if you don’t run HGH. Why not just port those qualities over to inversion enzyme and keep the elixir gun trait as one trait?

As already said, it is about synergy. Look at the ranger class, they got the GM trait Remorseless, giving them back opening strike every time they get fury. Opening strike increases the damage of the attack by 50%.

They got many ways to get fury too with the new system: By their weapon skills, by pet skills, by activating survival skills (traited), by attacking with a GS (traited)….

Now think about it that way: We give you the trait Remorseless and you can trigger fury to yourself by 1 weapon skill only and 5 other ways to give fury to your team members. Thats close to what we got with Inversion enzyme, because it has 1 skill that’s removing conditions from ourselves (super-elixir) and we got fumigate to clean 5 condis from team members. That’s not really synergetic. But making the elixir skills count as elixirs is so much more synergy to combine.

Yamsandjams.3267:

That’s at the core of my issue though. Why does the buff to elixir builds involve slotting less elixirs and taking a kit? If I’m supposed to run kits, why can’t it be build into the profession inherently? Why should I even be allowed to select no kits on my utility bar if it’s not the proper way to play the game?

Overall, I think a compromise on our positions here, would be to give the elixir gun less “Elixirs” so that it’s not blatantly better than a normal elixir in HGH, (Either taking it away from healing mist, or only giving it to Super Elixir, which is then in line with what the mortar kit does)

I too would like a no kit engie to be a worthwhile thing, but without a normal weapon swap, being an engineer with NO kits is literally handicapping yourself with less to work with than any other class, and you seal yourself off from tools like weapon swap sigils. So you should get a heavy benefit to doing so that makes up for the lack of weapons. (Maybe traits that buff us WITHOUT kits, like backpack regenerator should be flipped to only work with a kit OFF, for example)

Overall, the solution to making elixirs and gadgets more attractive than kits should be to buff them, rather than nerfing the kits.

The thing is, I would also like to see ONE kit engie builds, so that the most viable option isn’t to take 3+ kits and always have a huge chain rotation, and the Elixir gun is kind of weak as an offensive weapon, so HGH synergy is what makes it viable as a sole kit choice. I don’t want to see that yanked away already.

Kodama.6453:

Yamsandjams.3267:

And the elixir gun already has it’s own trait to make it better, I don’t see why it needs a second one. I agree it fits thematically, but not functionally. In fact, I’d even suggest that inversion enzyme is not good enough in it’s current form in that the elixir gun loses things like it’s cooldown reduction and increased super elixir duration if you don’t run HGH. Why not just port those qualities over to inversion enzyme and keep the elixir gun trait as one trait?

As already said, it is about synergy. Look at the ranger class, they got the GM trait Remorseless, giving them back opening strike every time they get fury. Opening strike increases the damage of the attack by 50%.

They got many ways to get fury too with the new system: By their weapon skills, by pet skills, by activating survival skills (traited), by attacking with a GS (traited)….

Now think about it that way: We give you the trait Remorseless and you can trigger fury to yourself by 1 weapon skill only and 5 other ways to give fury to your team members. Thats close to what we got with Inversion enzyme, because it has 1 skill that’s removing conditions from ourselves (super-elixir) and we got fumigate to clean 5 condis from team members. That’s not really synergetic. But making the elixir skills count as elixirs is so much more synergy to combine.

It’s a buff, yes. A good buff. But I don’t think the analogy you present fits quite properly.

For instance, opening strike has always been exclusive to the marksmanship line (although you can proc similar effects on your pet via signet of the hunt and such). If they went and, say, made a trait in one of the other lines that allowed you to obtain opening strike in a similar manner at no extra cost to the user (aside from speccing in that line), that would take away uniqueness from the marksmanship line and make it less attractive overall.

Similarly, the unique quality that elixir-specific traits have had that only applied to elixirs has been ported over to the convenient three-in-one package that exists in elixir gun, at no extra opportunity cost to the user (aside from having to spec into alchemy). This can make elixirs less attractive since you can obtain similar benefits that the elixirs provided while still acquiring all the utility the elixir gun offers.

Furthermore, super elixir does cleanse a condition from whoever it hits even without traiting it, so it already had that type of support functionality built into it. I know that the condition cleansing part of alchemical tinctures doesn’t affect all (or any?) of the elixir gun abilities, but I believe the boon duration portion does. All of the HGH things seem to function with it though, which I don’t agree with.

Arioso.8519:

Yamsandjams.3267:

That’s at the core of my issue though. Why does the buff to elixir builds involve slotting less elixirs and taking a kit? If I’m supposed to run kits, why can’t it be build into the profession inherently? Why should I even be allowed to select no kits on my utility bar if it’s not the proper way to play the game?

Overall, I think a compromise on our positions here, would be to give the elixir gun less “Elixirs” so that it’s not blatantly better than a normal elixir in HGH, (Either taking it away from healing mist, or only giving it to Super Elixir, which is then in line with what the mortar kit does)

Yes, I think this would be a decent compromise. If only a single skill in the elixir gun counted as an elixir (i.e. super elixir), it means it would be just as efficient at, say, might stacking as an actual elixir would be, but not necessarily more efficient (although super elixir would still be on a lower cooldown than most other elixirs).

However, I believe part of the reason they made this change was so that the elixir gun could still receive cooldown reductions for its skills, since that trait disappeared from the lineup. However, I don’t see why they can’t just port that to the already elixir gun-specific trait that is inversion enzyme.

Arioso.8519:

I too would like a no kit engie to be a worthwhile thing, but without a normal weapon swap, being an engineer with NO kits is literally handicapping yourself with less to work with than any other class, and you seal yourself off from tools like weapon swap sigils. So you should get a heavy benefit to doing so that makes up for the lack of weapons. (Maybe traits that buff us WITHOUT kits, like backpack regenerator should be flipped to only work with a kit OFF, for example)

I know, it’s a complicated issue. The suggestions I mentioned here won’t accomplish any of that, really, but the changes they implemented only make it harder for this to be a reality. I believe it’s a shift in the wrong direction, which is part of the reason I’d prefer they take away the elixir-specific traits affecting the elixir gun (if they just weren’t so lazy and fixed those kitten tooltips three years ago!).

Arioso.8519:

Overall, the solution to making elixirs and gadgets more attractive than kits should be to buff them, rather than nerfing the kits.

In general I agree, although I’m not advocating for a kit nerf, I’m advocating for a buff reversal. In fact, had they announced these changes in the pre-patch notes a week or so ago, I would have made this post then. But this was just tossed on us without any indication it was going to happen.

In fact, some of my suggestions could even buff elixir kit because you wouldn’t have to run HGH to get your cooldown reductions, and could elect instead to run something like iron blooded for damage reduction.

Arioso.8519:

The thing is, I would also like to see ONE kit engie builds, so that the most viable option isn’t to take 3+ kits and always have a huge chain rotation, and the Elixir gun is kind of weak as an offensive weapon, so HGH synergy is what makes it viable as a sole kit choice. I don’t want to see that yanked away already.

It’s not the strongest as an offensive weapon, but it was never tailored towards that in the first place. It fits a support role much better, being able to maintain 100% uptime of weakness on a target, making them vulnerable and poisoned, and healing and cleaning allies. It already does a lot to support the team, I don’t see why it also has to be a might generator when that was previously unique to the realm of elixirs (i.e. tossing your elixirs on the group to give them might and other stuff).

It does, of course, make it more viable in something like a solo roaming setup, but it already had a comfortable place in the existing meta. It didn’t need to encroach on elixir territory (granted the meta is all a jumble right now).

Yamsandjams.3267:

A class of “low skill floor” utilities that aren’t to be used in any serious type of gameplay?

That’s not what I said.

I said that slotting your build full of nothing but elixirs with one weapon is simply too easy a build to be competitive. The higher a skill floor it has, the better a build should be. Because elixirs are very passive and don’t require a whole lot to be effective with it, it shouldn’t be as effective as kits—and should only be used as auxiliary utilities in support of kit-centric builds.

“Elixir U is undoubtedly better, but what are you going to burst with? The kit that you didn’t slot in order to take elixir U?”

— Mortar

In all seriousness, you could run Elixir U for a mortar burst, stack lots of the explosives and firearms point blank/high health damage bonuses (plus scholar runes, fire/air etc). Then throw in something like Elixir B and Elixir S.

You basically play as a thief – stealth, stack fury and lots of might via HGH, and pop out with quickness and lots of point blank damage.

Yes, it would be a one-hit wonder build, you’ll either kill them immediately or lose the long fight, but it appears to be a viable full elixir alchemy build without using elixir gun.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Yamsandjams.3267:

A class of “low skill floor” utilities that aren’t to be used in any serious type of gameplay?

That’s not what I said.

I said that slotting your build full of nothing but elixirs with one weapon is simply too easy a build to be competitive. The higher a skill floor it has, the better a build should be. Because elixirs are very passive and don’t require a whole lot to be effective with it, it shouldn’t be as effective as kits—and should only be used as auxiliary utilities in support of kit-centric builds.

But why? Why can’t you have an all-elixir build that is a good alternative for at least one thing? I mean, such a build isn’t even fully functional because it lacks access to a weapon swap trigger mechanic. I don’t see how it’s good design to build that into the profession.

I’m not asking that all elixir builds be the best builds in the game. I simply want them to be able to fill some sort of niche that may be, at best, situationally useful.

Now I say “simply”, but obviously it’s not that simple, I won’t pretend it is.

But elixirs previously had a unique place in that they were good choices for might stacking builds. A build with elixir H, B, and one of the other ones could put itself up to 20+ stacks of might without external assistance, as well as providing itself with a variety of other boons like fury and retaliation. They also provided alternatives to condition cleansing outside of the incredibly dominant healing “turret”, making something like elixir H a worthwhile choice if you were specialized into it.

Now that’s not to say that other builds couldn’t build might or clean conditions, but it was a specialty of elixirs. However, porting that functionality over to elixir gun dilutes the purpose of focusing in elixirs in the first place, particularly since you have a three-in-one package at the cost of one utility slot.

Any “elixir” build that wants to maximize its might stacking will run elixir gun due to the low cooldown might procs it has (two of them in an AoE). But people didn’t really need further incentive to run a kit like the elixir gun in the first place, it already had a comfortable spot in the previous meta. Not only that, but that kit synergizes quite nicely with healing turret, so now you can get your water blast as well as elixir might stacks all together.

I don’t see how it’s to anyone’s benefit that all the other utilities be made less effective compared to kits due to any sort of skill cap. If we’re supposed to be running kit-centric builds all the time, it should simply be built into the engineer instead of being a selectable option.

I also don’t agree with the notion that a higher skill floor should necessitate a better build in such a global fashion. I mean, would you say engineer should be flat out better than warrior since warrior has a lower skill floor? How can game balance and build variety be based solely on that?

Again, I don’t care if a full elixir build isn’t as competitive as a standard kit build (although I wouldn’t mind that). But I feel it’s important that it has a kind of niche to fill. Letting elixir gun invade that niche when people ran elixir gun fairly frequently anyways does not, to me, seem to preserve any kind of place for elixirs.

Tor.1365:

and lots of might via HGH

Yes, I agree your idea would probably fun and maybe even effective at what it does (even if it was, overall, not a very competitive build). But this part I’ve highlighted is part of the issue. You can stack more might if you use elixir gun than you can if you were using an actual elixir.

So in your build example, why not take elixir gun instead of elixir S, which would let you build more might, have a source of secondary healing, condi clearing, and still keep a stun breaker? Obviously you would lose the stealth and invulnerability, so it’s not like you wouldn’t be trading anything away if you slotted elixir gun instead, but the build would be more effective at what it’s supposed to do. That is, deal even higher damage.

In fact, the way the game is programmed, you could slot the elixir gun to stack might, and then swap it to elixir S before engaging (provided you aren’t in PvP). Although you can do similar things with flamethrower and such, so it’s not an exclusive issue.

My point is more that the might stacking and other elixir-specific qualities should be kept to elixirs because it is unique to that class of utilities, or at least it was. Elixir gun doesn’t need HGH to be good at what it does, and it already had a comfortable place in all game modes (except maybe for PvE). Only about half the elixirs were ever run in serious elixir builds, and now elixir gun has come to copy the things elixirs have done without any change to the utility the kit provides.

Yamsandjams.3267:

So in your build example, why not take elixir gun instead of elixir S, which would let you build more might, have a source of secondary healing, condi clearing, and still keep a stun breaker? Obviously you would lose the stealth and invulnerability, so it’s not like you wouldn’t be trading anything away if you slotted elixir gun instead, but the build would be more effective at what it’s supposed to do. That is, deal even higher damage.

Actually, the player himself is defining what his build is supposed to do, not you. ^^
If he is getting a hard time avoiding damage in PvP, Elixir S is a life safer on it’s own because of invuln and stealth.

And that’s the point, Elixirs should be taken because of their effect in first place and not because they got the elixir tag. That’s buffing them but the elixir itself should give you the reason to take it. So instead of nerfing elixir gun, buffing the effect of elixirs could maybe be the right way?

Kodama.6453:

Yamsandjams.3267:

So in your build example, why not take elixir gun instead of elixir S, which would let you build more might, have a source of secondary healing, condi clearing, and still keep a stun breaker? Obviously you would lose the stealth and invulnerability, so it’s not like you wouldn’t be trading anything away if you slotted elixir gun instead, but the build would be more effective at what it’s supposed to do. That is, deal even higher damage.

Actually, the player himself is defining what his build is supposed to do, not you. ^^
If he is getting a hard time avoiding damage in PvP, Elixir S is a life safer on it’s own because of invuln and stealth.

And that’s the point, Elixirs should be taken because of their effect in first place and not because they got the elixir tag. That’s buffing them but the elixir itself should give you the reason to take it. So instead of nerfing elixir gun, buffing the effect of elixirs could maybe be the right way?

Yes, he defined that it is supposed to do high point blank damage, which more might stacks facilitate.

In any case, that’s a possibility, yes.

But note that I’m not advocating we nerf elixir gun. It was already good at what it did. It didn’t need to take something that was previously only doable by elixirs and provide it at a lower opportunity cost. If it loses the HGH synergy, it wouldn’t suddenly be bad. The only thing it would be missing are the skill cooldown reductions, which could be ported over to the inversion enzyme trait, which is already specific to the elixir gun.

If I wanted to nerf elixir gun, I’d advocate for something like less damage on its auto-attack. It’s more or less superior to the pistol auto-attack, particularly since coated bullets no longer exists in the game. It’s a bit odd to offer better sustained damage on an auto-attack and render one offered by your equipped weapon effectively worthless to use.

Elixir gun is no longer just a kit, think of it as an elixir with special functionally, because that’s what it is now. ^^

You’re maybe right about the need of balancing elixir gun, but I don’t think we should get rid of the elixir tag to do so. Like I said, think of it as an elixir with special mechanic. If one elixir would be much more powerful than the others and would be the only one taken, would you get rid of it’s elixir tag to balance it? No, you would balance it’s function by a new way.

That’s the direction we should think, I guess.

Kodama.6453:

Elixir gun is no longer just a kit, think of it as an elixir with special functionally, because that’s what it is now. ^^

You’re maybe right about the need of balancing elixir gun, but I don’t think we should get rid of the elixir tag to do so. Like I said, think of it as an elixir with special mechanic. If one elixir would be much more powerful than the others and would be the only one taken, would you get rid of it’s elixir tag to balance it? No, you would balance it’s function by a new way.

That’s the direction we should think, I guess.

It shouldn’t be both an elixir and a kit though. It should be one or the other. That was (I theorize) the justification of making elixir-specific traits not affect the elixir gun post-beta version. There’s already elixirs that don’t even fit comfortably in actual elixir builds, and having elixir gun come in is just exacerbating that issue.

I agree with your notion that certain elixirs should be buffed if they’re simply not worthwhile to include in builds, although that’s an entirely separate issue that will be made more complicated by having elixir gun coming around and being like “hey, why don’t you just take me instead?”.

I would like a dev response to indicate what their justification for implementing this sort of change to the elixir gun was, but that is unlikely to happen (they’re extremely busy), so I can only speculate as to exactly what they’re trying to do. I feel “well, it’s an elixir gun, so it should work with elixir traits” is a poor justification, at best.

I love playing my HGH engi with elixirs H B U the gun and mortar kit. I like going all the way into the build and so far it has proven to be pretty effective. Imo it is very important for HGH builds to be viable again that we don’t have to rely on our rifle only.

On the other hand i agree that it is pretty easy for mixed engis to spec into HGH now for some extra condi removal, but then again its up for debate if one utility slot and one grandmaster unbalances some might and condi removal.

Well I’d say the main issue is that with an HGH e-gun build you’re not contributing as much in team fights because you probably have to drop tool kit or slick shoes to take it. That makes you much better in 1v1s though, but sometimes being better in 1v1s isn’t the best for conquest game modes.

serious allucine I read something like that I play a build hgh / 409 for almost the beta and (remember that many people wanted too) was a synergy between the gun and the elixir elixir, I am delighted wah wah bed and I not happy, for once can build a nice ordinair become eral it -_-

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fdAQJAqalcTpdrVXx+KseNCbBFyMeRR3xo8kPGxAA-TVQhAAw+DkCQRxWA-w

sorry for the mistakes I use a translator

tl;dr Balancing Engineer is hard

The condensing of skills into single traits is something we’ve seen across the entire board. Incendiary Powder, Heavy Armor Exploit, etc. Elixir Gun lost two of the traits that affected it and got itself compounded into HGH. Also a new E-Gun trait that rewards active support by providing boons.

HGH supporting Elixir Gun shouldn’t kill ‘true’ Elixir based builds because the viability of EG is completely separate from what makes other Elixirs useful. Nothing that Elixir Gun does comes close to touching the reliable offensive boons from Elixir B (not even Inversion Enzyme), Quickness from Elixir U (which has been buffed), and the shelter that Elixir S provides from focus fire. All it’s doing is benefiting from the same trait. This allows Elixir Gun users to build into HGH and HGH users to the use of EG. From here, the only identity bleeding is “HGH” itself. It goes from being a build-defining trait (Juggernaut) to one with more flexible utility (Shrapnel). I just did a dungeon last night running Bomb/EG/Elixir B/Mortar running HGH and it was pretty good. If HGH didn’t buff EG and Mortar, I probably would have went with a different trait line or maybe take Iron Blooded (As a side note, that is the REAL invalidation to complain about. I don’t see anyone having a reason to run Iron Blooded with most boons come from Elixirs and competing with HGH for GM Alchemy use. Maybe a turret build w/ Experimental Turrets but we can talk about that in some other thread.)

I understand that it feels like you’re forced to use a kit because of their utility and usefulness but looking at build variety as “kit vs non-kit” just degrades the experience that each kit, and the profession as a whole, gives you. E-Gun and Bomb are two very different ways of playing. You’ll have your players who go EG/Bomb/X, Bomb/X/X, EG/X/X, and the build itself allows for very different things. They are entire weapon sets that give meaning to how you play. “Everyone’s taking a kit” doesn’t really sound like a problem they’d worry about since they handicapped the class into not having a swap from the jump. Playing without a kit puts you at a skill count disadvantage against every other profession. It isn’t easy making that viable without turning the builds that run only one or two kits absolutely bonkers. Taking a kit levels the playing field. What IS worrisome is when the problem becomes “Everyone’s taking Grenade Kit”. This is a thing to be worried about because it says that players don’t feel useful without this one specific skill.

Not rolling with a kit locks you out of many useful weapon sigils but that’s because of the restrictions of the class itself. There was even a time when weapon swap sigils (as well as the weapon’s attributes) didn’t work on kits either; locking out all Engis from those options. Even then, people were still preferred to use at least 1 kit to none.

The other alternatives are worse. Nerfing a kit does not promote the use of non-kit builds, it promotes the use of other kits, or worse, other professions. Buffing non-kit utilities will just make 1-kit, 2-kit builds even better because they have no problems running both. ArenaNet could probably make a trait that you could only use when you don’t have a kit at all. Something like: Unhindered: ________ happens when there are no kit skills on your toolbar But this has all sorts of issues that I can already predict.

• This is a precedent. Bonuses based on skills you aren’t using rather than the ones you are isn’t something they’ve done before. As such, it’ll probably be bugged to hell.
• If it’s a strong enough trait to compensate for not using a kit, then they’ll be promoting a low skill floor with more reward than probably deserved. You’ll hear the QQers in PvP forum saying things like “A build strong enough to not need more than one weapon is a faceroll build.”
• If they don’t make the trait strong enough, then it’ll simply go unused. Nothing will change except that we’d now have a trait option that’s virtually pointless.

I have no problem with HGH supporting EG (and Mortar’s 5). Elixir Gun is in a good place where all the traits it has available are excellent and yet aren’t “necessary” to use if you run it.

Nilix.2170:

I just did a dungeon last night running Bomb/EG/Elixir B/Mortar running HGH and it was pretty good.

Your might stacks should be covered by warriors. HGH is sub-optimal in group PvE.

“Elixir gun is too strong, nerf it so I can do what I’ve done in the past optimally”

That’s what I’m getting from this. I really like this change to the Elixir Kit, I’ve been tinkering around with all sorts of builds, and even though that kit has been buffed a bit with that trait, it’s some some gamebreaking cheap thing, it offers more variety.

elixir gun is our most interesting kit now, please leave it as it is thankyou. the days of full elixir builds are over