Guild Wars 2

I have no idea what thread I initially said I’d put this in, but someone brought up math and numbers over the effectiveness of the Healing Turret, so I did some math and numbers of my own. Then I realized that just the end solutions doesn’t cut it, I need a full-on graph. So here we go. The charts detail the differences between Elixir H (Untraited and Traited, With and Without Regeneration), Med Kit, and the Healing Turret (Left on Field, Immediately Picked Up, and Immediately Detonated) in Healing over a 60s period with 0 Healing Power at maximum efficiency.

Chart 1: Differences between Elixir H.

Red line: 30 in Alchemy, Fast Acting Elixirs, Potent Elixirs, Regeneration achieved from Toolbelt and Main Skill 100% of the time

Purple Line: 30 in Alchemy, Fast Acting Elixirs, Potent Elixirs, Never Achieve Regeneration boon.

Blue line: 0 Traits, Regeneration achieved from Toolbelt and Main Skill 100% of the time

Green Line: 0 Traits, Never achieve Regeneration boon

Relationships to consider: Area between Red and Purple or the Blue and Green line can serve to illustrate the range of effective healing that the Elixir can give you depending on your traits, and your ability to rng for Regen. For example, if you are untraited at level 80, you would never heal below the Green line, but would never achieve beyond the Blue states.

Chart 2: Differences between the Healing Turret
Blue: Leaving HT out and overcharging it when possible
Red: Drop, Overcharge, and Immediately pick up the HT
Green: Drop, Overcharge, and Detonate the HT

Chart 3: Traited Elixir Range vs. Leaving out the Healing Turret
This chart is funny to me.

Chart 4: All Healing Turret methods vs Elixir H variations, vs the Med Kit
MED KIT STRONG

Chart 5: Side-by-Side number comparisons

Enjoy. Updated for use of Toolbelt Skills Regenerating Mist and Toss Elixir H, readjusted misconceptions of the Healing Turret,

well done. Nice information

This is an extremely nice piece of work you did there.
I think I was the one in that ‘other thread’ presenting some simple comparison numbers between leaving out and detonating. It was nowhere near as accurate or complete as what you did.
Others filled in, and slowly we were seeing the full picture.

You skipped all that and just handed the full picture on a silver platter

I love you. Seriously.

Med Kit

1) Great for Speedy Kits and The Vigor Trait
2) Condition removal every 15 seconds.
3) Speed boosts
4) Fury
5) You can set up to have a 12k heal ready for the next fight by placing them in advance.

Elixir H

1) HGH
2) Cleaning Formula 409
3) Random boon

Healing Turret

1) Water Field
2) Blast Finisher
3) AoE condition removal and heal
4) Party wide regeneration

This is great Nilix!

Out of curiosity…

Did you use MedKit’s F1 on cooldown only or include the medkits on cooldown too?

Did you use the Healing Turret’s F1 when picked up?

Did you use Elixir H’s F1 throw on cooldown too?

Our toolbelt makes healing more complicated than any other profession. Just trying to figure out how you did it.

Great Job! very complete picture. This just confirms that med kit is the best heal you can take, especially if you have points in tools, along with Inertial Converter and procc’ing on heal abilities its hard to beat

Kimbald.2697:

This is an extremely nice piece of work you did there.
I think I was the one in that ‘other thread’ presenting some simple comparison numbers between leaving out and detonating. It was nowhere near as accurate or complete as what you did.
Others filled in, and slowly we were seeing the full picture.
You skipped all that and just handed the full picture on a silver platter

Thanks. I meant to do this days ago but I had my hands full. Then while I was playing I remembered that I wanted to make this. But had no idea how to make graphs in Excel. But with the magic of the internet I managed to do it… at 2:00 in the morning. Now I can apply to jobs that ask me if I know how to use Excel! (I’m looking at you ArenaNet. Hold a Game Designer position open for me and I’ll balance this class for you <3)

Linc.6834:

Great Job! very complete picture. This just confirms that med kit is the best heal you can take, especially if you have points in tools, along with Inertial Converter and procc’ing on heal abilities its hard to beat

Apparently if you have 15 points in the Inventions line, that also will refresh your Bandage Self recharge. I didn’t know this before someone else told me a few weeks ago. Of course, it’s better to take it into Tools if you want to clear up your entire toolbelt’s recharge. but if you’re looking for 50 more points in toughness and healing power, you’ve got an option.

Seras.5702:

This is great Nilix!

Out of curiosity…

Did you use MedKit’s F1 on cooldown only or include the medkits on cooldown too?

Did you use the Healing Turret’s F1 when picked up?

Did you use Elixir H’s F1 throw on cooldown too?

Our toolbelt makes healing more complicated than any other profession. Just trying to figure out how you did it.

OOOOH. You just brought up something interesting. Looks like a few numbers are going to have to shift.
To explain the current chart:
Med Kit uses its F1 as the Initial heal(4920) and can occur every 20s. There is an additional 3k every 12s are the 1-3 skills within the kit. This makes the Med Kit take an early 7920 lead and it continues to maintain this lead because of its modest cooldown and high numbers.
Elixir H grants 5560 in its initial heal and has the possibility to grant regeneration. To illustrate maximum healing effectiveness, the Elixir H chart shows what happens if you achieved regeneration every single time. This is with no traits.

Potent Elixir H is the same as Elixir H but with 30 points in Alchemy and using the traits Fast Acting Elixirs (20% CD Reduction) Potent Elixirs (20% increased Effectiveness) and HGH. Potent Elixirs increases the length of regeneration by 2 seconds on its own. Having 30 points in Alchemy increases the duration by another 3 (30% Boon Duration of 10s of regeneration) for a total of 15s.

Cleansing Elixir H has the same trait setup as Potent Elixir H but replaces Potent Elixirs with Cleansing Formula 409. While it loses 2s of Regeneration, you are granted 3 condition cleanses (actually 6 if you count the toss, I’ll edit the chart soon) per 60s.

HT Leave Out shows what happens if you leave the turret placed and overcharge every 15. HT Pickup illustrates dropping,overcharging, and picking up. HT Detonate illustrates dropping, overcharging, and detonating. However, I did utilize the Healing Turret’s or Elixir H’s F1.

The F1 on the Elixir can provide additional regeneration for another 10s. This is might be enough to grant permanent regen uptime at maximum effectiveness for Potent and Cleansing Elixir H. It would also shrink the gap that Untraited Elixir H has. So I’ll have to edit this to accomodate.

However, what interests me a lot more is the Healing Turret’s F1, as that provides TWO STACKS of Regen. I want to figure out how that is timed when done immediately. It may be possible that the timing of the Turret F1 is crucial to getting the application of double stack regen. Time to jump into Arah.

Things I’ll need to change
-Healing Turret to accommodate for F1.
-Elixir H to accommodate for F1
-An additional Elixir H comparison showing the healing amount when regeneration is never granted (to illustrate the lowest heal the Elixir can grant). I think it would be a nice comparison showing the ‘range’ of healing possible for Elixir users.

You should also take into account that putting points into Tools reduces Med Kit F1 heal cd. So at 30 in tools, Med Kit should see a 30% increase in overall healing.

That % actually comes up a bit skewed since it only affects the Toolbelt skill and not the Med Kit skills. However, the main point of this was to show the base line of healing. I only added traits for Cleansing/Potent Elixir H because most people bring up its traited capabilities. The Alchemy line is one of the more reliable lines to build on since its Elixir traits are very useful for those builds. With the popularity of HGH amongst Engineers, there is a good percentage of people who would actually be going 30 in Alchemy and see numbers like that.

However, the number of people going 30 in Tools is a lot harder to grasp. Many of the traits in Tools are build specific and playstyle changers. It’s common to assume 10p in Tools. Since you have Speedy Kits, and Static Discharge. However, by itself is enough to improve your states over time, as well as grant an additional Bandage Self within the 60s time frame. Currently, healing happens at 1, 22, 43 second mark (20s CD +1s Cast Time) a 10% CDR will give you Bandage Self at 1, 20, 39, and 58 second marks(18s CD + 1s Cast Time). A full 30% CDR will give you heals at 1, 16, 31, and 46 (14s CD +1s Cast Time). You miss getting a 5th heal by just a single second.
I can illustrate the differences of that as well in another chart. If only I knew how to make an interactive one.

One other notable issue. According to the wiki, Potent Elixirs does not increase the duration of boons created by elixirs, only the duration of the elixir itself. Which means Elixir U will last longer but Elixir H has no duration so the trait has no affect on it. Common misconception. So that trait is wasted completely with respect to this discussion. The trait is designed to work with pretty much all the other elixirs except healing.

Seras.5702:

One other notable issue. According to the wiki, Potent Elixirs does not increase the duration of boons created by elixirs, only the duration of the elixir itself. Which means Elixir U will last longer but Elixir H has no duration so the trait has no affect on it. Common misconception. So that trait is wasted completely with respect to this discussion. The trait is designed to work with pretty much all the other elixirs except healing.

Is that what the Wiki says? Because that’s wrong. Someone should go change that.I’m in the Heart of the Mists right now. 30% Alchemy + Potent Elixirs will give me 15s of Swiftness or Regeneration. Without Potent Elixirs, it’s giving me 13s. The tooltip doesn’t update when the trait is taken but when you hover over the actual boon, the time is properly adjusted.

EDIT: Just tested with Elixir B as well. That bug has been fixed and properly increases the length of the boons of both Elixir H and Elixir B. Removed the bug explanation from the wiki.

So I checked how Regenerating Mist (H Turret Toolbelt) worked. It doesn’t actually stack intensity like I thought it did, but rather stacks duration just how regeneration usually does. So it applies a Regen Boon and a Water Field in two bursts. This would give picking up and detonating the turret 6 additional seconds of regeneration.

Also, there’s an issue with immediate overcharge that I didn’t realize. It only gives you 5s of regen, not 8 (I thought the 3s that the regular pulse gives was also applied. This was my mistake.) I’ll adjust for all these things as well.

Thanks for your diligence Nilix. I don’t want to be the guy who rains on parades, as I do really appreciate the effort you’re putting into this. I just want to make sure I’m understanding all the info properly. Hence my questions & poking. Not to mention I think your data will finally put an end to the oft-debated topic of “the best healing skill,” no matter how situational that answer is.

Elixir for HGH and cleansing formula builds.
Healing turret if without elixir things, but running with a raid and/or using shield, like healing type raid build with elixir gun and bombs.
Med kit for SD builds (many points in tools and fury used for the bursts).

3 builds that I most commonly use, and all use different heal.

Nice thread! Nice to see actual numbers.

Dont worry about it. In fact, I need people checking these things because data that’s incorrect is worthless. We also need more people actively fixing the wiki after patches because people take things on there as Word of God when it’s supposed to be an ongoing process.

AsmallChicken.9634:

You should also take into account that putting points into Tools reduces Med Kit F1 heal cd. So at 30 in tools, Med Kit should see a 30% increase in overall healing.

Actually, the toolbelt recharge rate isn’t a linear reduction, or at least this has been reported to not be the case (I haven’t tested it personally).

That is, having 30 points in tools should not give you 30% off the cooldowns for your toolbelt skills. The formula may be something like:

CD / (1 + (TCR / 100))

where CD is the skill cooldown, and TCR is the toolbelt cooldown reduction from the tools tree.

So 30 points in tools for a 20s CD (medkit F1) would give

20 / (1 + (30 / 100)) = 15.38s

in contrast to a flat 30% reduction which would give 14s cooldown for the same skill.

Again, I haven’t personally tested this, but this has been reported to be the case.

Yamsandjams.3267:

AsmallChicken.9634:

You should also take into account that putting points into Tools reduces Med Kit F1 heal cd. So at 30 in tools, Med Kit should see a 30% increase in overall healing.

Actually, the toolbelt recharge rate isn’t a linear reduction, or at least this has been reported to not be the case (I haven’t tested it personally).

That is, having 30 points in tools should not give you 30% off the cooldowns for your toolbelt skills. The formula may be something like:

CD / (1 + (TCR / 100))

where CD is the skill cooldown, and TCR is the toolbelt cooldown reduction from the tools tree.

So 30 points in tools for a 20s CD (medkit F1) would give

20 / (1 + (30 / 100)) = 15.38s

in contrast to a flat 30% reduction which would give 14s cooldown for the same skill.

Again, I haven’t personally tested this, but this has been reported to be the case.

What the hell are you even talking about? The tooltip says 14 like it sho-
and then I tested it
What the hell kind of CDR formula did they implement? GAH. I am SO glad I am not making a chart for that right now.

Updated~

Amusingly enough, with 30 points in Alchemy, Potent Elixirs almost seems wasted on Elixir H. Note that Cleansing Elixir H and Potent Elixir H both have the same heal amount at the end of the 60s. This is because, assuming you achieve regen100% of the time, you would have enough seconds of regen to achieve perpetual regeneration without it.
At least that’s what I’d like to say. You still have to “ROLL FOR REGEN” so the additional 2 seconds may or may not become wasted in case you hit a different boon. Personally, I believe it would be the extra second of Protection keeping you alive anyway, so it’s nothing to furrow a brow about.

Yamsandjams.3267:

AsmallChicken.9634:

You should also take into account that putting points into Tools reduces Med Kit F1 heal cd. So at 30 in tools, Med Kit should see a 30% increase in overall healing.

Actually, the toolbelt recharge rate isn’t a linear reduction, or at least this has been reported to not be the case (I haven’t tested it personally).

That is, having 30 points in tools should not give you 30% off the cooldowns for your toolbelt skills. The formula may be something like:

CD / (1 + (TCR / 100))

where CD is the skill cooldown, and TCR is the toolbelt cooldown reduction from the tools tree.

So 30 points in tools for a 20s CD (medkit F1) would give

20 / (1 + (30 / 100)) = 15.38s

in contrast to a flat 30% reduction which would give 14s cooldown for the same skill.

Again, I haven’t personally tested this, but this has been reported to be the case.

20 points in Tools give me a 16 bandage self (or Throw wrench which is on the same cooldown).
30 points give me a 14 second cooldown.

looks like a pretty flat reduction to me, straightforward simple deduction of 20 or 30% from 20 seconds.

So:
1. either it is wrong what you heard
2. or you heard right, but the tooltip in game lists a wrong number since it lists that exact flat reduction.

Option 2. The tooltip shows a flat cdr but actually using the skill gives something different. Bandage Self says 14, but when you use it the cooldown timer starts at 15.

Nilix.2170:

Option 2. The tooltip shows a flat cdr but actually using the skill gives something different. Bandage Self says 14, but when you use it the cooldown timer starts at 15.

I’ll test a bit myself, but I’m not arguing it wasn’t different than the tooltip.
I simply never counted the actual seconds, I just took the tooltip counter for granted.

Odd bug, where the tooltip counts different than the actual timer.
Ususally the tooltip counter itself is wrong as well on these timer bugs.

So looking at the updated graphs it seems like you can pour all the traits you want into elixirs to boost Elixir H, but MedKit (completely untraited) is still the best for straight healing. Throw some points into the Tools tree and you can greatly reduce its F1 CD, making it even better. Not to mention, it’s a kit. Which means no CD swapping into & out of it, granting weapon swap & on-healing procs very often.

So if you want party wide healing, grab the turret. Self healing, grab the kit. Elixir H is really only good for HGH and for less clunky, straightforward mechanics.

Seras.5702:

So if you want party wide healing, grab the turret. Self healing, grab the kit. Elixir H is really only good for HGH and for less clunky, straightforward mechanics.

seems like the conclusion indeed.

one thing about the med kit though: since it is a kit, any healing aside the bandage self big heal, also takes you out of combat. You are not doing anything except healing.
Your enemy is not stopped or damaged in any way as long as you remain in that kit.

only your toolbelt skills and runes could change that.

For instance a traited tool kit would give you a crippling throw wrench to slow opponents with.
Runes of grenth will proc a chill when you swap to the Med Kit, effectively lowering the damage any melee can do to you, as well as limiting their movement.
Lots of examples.

Med kit healing also takes longer to use: dropping bandages and running over them takes a few seconds to get them all.

Med Kit is a slightly different way of fighting. Perhaps that is why it is allowed to be the biggest self-heal.

Kimbald.2697:

one thing about the med kit though: since it is a kit, any healing aside the bandage self big heal, also takes you out of combat. You are not doing anything except healing.
Your enemy is not stopped or damaged in any way as long as you remain in that kit.

only your toolbelt skills and runes could change that.

For instance a traited tool kit would give you a crippling throw wrench to slow opponents with.
Runes of grenth will proc a chill when you swap to the Med Kit, effectively lowering the damage any melee can do to you, as well as limiting their movement.
Lots of examples.

Med kit healing also takes longer to use: dropping bandages and running over them takes a few seconds to get them all.

Med Kit is a slightly different way of fighting. Perhaps that is why it is allowed to be the biggest self-heal.

All true. But there are a number of procs that can be triggered on-heal. In the case of the medkit, that means every time we swap to the kit. So the proc is limited only by the sigil/trait/rune’s own ICD. This gives the medkit another strength in my book.

I take the Enhanced Performance trait, which procs 3 stacks of might every time I heal, on a 10s ICD. In conjunction with Juggernaut, that let’s me stack might very effectively without having to trait 30 into Alchemy for HGH. [Healing Turret with its new reduced CDs can do this quite effectively too now.]

Pretty much confirms my suspicions that Elixir H is for HGH builds only and is outperformed by Healing Turret and Med Kit for everything else.

I get what people are saying about the “active” style of the Med Kit versus chugging an elixir or dropping/detonating a turret, but the payoff is pretty extreme over a long fight.

The Healing Turret is most competitive in the fact that it grants 2 conditions removed every 20 seconds or so compared to the Med Kit’s 1 every 20 … and the Water field with coordination could outperform the Med Kit.

That said, proccing Area Heals is ultimately just as “active” if not more than the Med Kit, and Blast finishers are few unless you’re using gadgets which are the least played style these days. Maybe things will change in the future, but I’ll stick with the Med Kit for now for self-healing/buffs and the Healing Turret when the group needs the added support.

Excellent work. +1’d.

Phineas Poe.3018:

The Healing Turret is most competitive in the fact that it grants 2 conditions removed every 20 seconds or so compared to the Med Kit’s 1 every 20 … and the Water field with coordination could outperform the Med Kit.

That said, proccing Area Heals is ultimately just as “active” if not more than the Med Kit, and Blast finishers are few unless you’re using gadgets which are the least played style these days. Maybe things will change in the future, but I’ll stick with the Med Kit for now for self-healing/buffs and the Healing Turret when the group needs the added support.

Excellent work. +1’d.

I’ve been experimenting with bring a shield into dungeons (I always ran P/P) just for the blast finisher in conjunction with Healing Turret. Drop, overcharge, Shield blast, detonate = large aoe heal bomb + condition removal. It’s just tough to do during a mobile fight. You’re right that with group cooperation HT can seriously outperform anything else.

Seras.5702:

All true. But there are a number of procs that can be triggered on-heal. In the case of the medkit, that means every time we swap to the kit. So the proc is limited only by the sigil/trait/rune’s own ICD. This gives the medkit another strength in my book.

I take the Enhanced Performance trait, which procs 3 stacks of might every time I heal, on a 10s ICD. In conjunction with Juggernaut, that let’s me stack might very effectively without having to trait 30 into Alchemy for HGH. [Healing Turret with its new reduced CDs can do this quite effectively too now.]

I’ve taken it further with the might stacking, I was so tired of chugging elixirs but am also addicted to might. So with Enhanced Performance, 2x Rune of Altruism, and sigil of Battle. Thats 9x might for swapping to medkit and out, which I do all the time anyway for swiftness and vigor. With 65% boon duration I can stack up a permanant 18 stacks of might by myself very quickly without Juggernaut (I like grenades). It doesn’t work that well with juggernaut because you have to constantly swap kits.

Very nice Linc. I’ll grab a Sup Battle Sigil tonight & try that out. And swapping from Juggernaut/FT to MedKit and back is mad fast. I won’t lose a stack of Might in the time it takes for that swap/swap.