Guild Wars 2

/rage start
These things make our turrets looks good…

The heal and condi clear bots are pathetic. The condiclear bot heals in intervalls when 3 ticks of burning can easily kill you, not to mention he dies to aoe condis… Its like it will die easily on the side even if the other guy doesn’t even pay attention to it and even if it doesn’t die you are still relying on RNG and the AI not screwing things up.

Blast and Shredder are not worth their utility slot in any way. We already have utilities that do what the blast drone does, but on shorter cd and not so easily counterd.
The shredder drone has a semi usefull toolbelt but the super low damage of a spinning ai that will die to 2-3 auto attacks while simply sitting there does not justify a 30 secs CD. Anyway Shredder is my favourite one because at least there you get no ai shenanigans.

And finlly IDefender…. ehm i mean Bulwark. Srsly wth?! Its a bland copy of a bad skill of another class. Buffing it with instant activation and other things still makes it bad. It will die to aoe like all the other drones and the effect it grants is exactly-none. For what its worth it will see some use in dungeons for the toolbelt reflect alone.

And of course the elite that stealthes you, except you still got a big ol visible drone flying arround that you have to stop and wait for every few secs because ai is too stupid to keep up. Nty i’d rather blast bomb 4 instead. Seems to be reocuring theme here. We only got stuff that we (or mesmer) could already do, just worse because stupid aoe suiciding ai.
Literally using the elite when searching for a mesmer is the only use this thing is gonna get.

The same goes for our NEW AND SHYINY class mechanic. Now i have to rely on AI for stomping and rezzing?! Oh god just when i thought it couln’t get any worse.

I was so hoping that this elite spec gave us some sort of use in WvW but its just stupid ai utilities that won’t see use anywhere. Least of all in WvW.
/rage end
For what its worth the hammer is awesome.

The hammer give use more use to frontlining in GvG and WvW i think, but the gryos are very weak in a xx vs xx situation.

Hahahahah

traps

Vennyhedgie.5369:

Hahahahah

traps

Now i know what we get i am jealous about guardians traps

Haralin.1473:

Vennyhedgie.5369:

Hahahahah

traps

Now i know what we get i am jealous about guardians traps

Okay let’s be real for a second here. Yes, the heal is absolutely atrocious (although the toolbelt is good), and the self destruct gyro is kinda silly for the CD it has, but the shredder gyro is a very good one imo. Bulwark needs a lot more health to be useful, but that can easily be fixed by changing numbers, the functionality is there. The purge gyro is not as bad as it seems: 2 condis every 3 seconds is quite a lot if you manage yourself to keep it alive. The elite is instant cast aoe stealth, that’s pretty strong to cover yourself when stunned(since gyros have no stun breaker atm, seriously what’s up with that?), along with aoe revealed every 20 seconds, that’s pretty neat imo.

Certainly they are not GREAT but they’re far from being the worst. Dragonhunter traps are, by a long shot.

So the toolbelt is a waterfield, guess what other heal has got a waterfield on the toolbelt and is better in about everyway. Not to mention it heals for nothing, is stupid ai and dies to aoe.
Also why should i try to keep the rng cleanse ai alive when its supposed to have a job to keep me alive?! Ain’t that screwed. Also how to keep it alive when it dies to the same condis that its supposed to cleanse. Relying on ai for sustain is that most stupid idea ever conceived.
Bulwrak need to not stand in the circles to ever be even close to viable. They can buff its HP to borderline broken and its still crap.
Also i don’t see how a sitting duck that dies in 2-3 autos doing pathetic damage and spinning on a 30sec cd is worth an utility slot.
Also lol using the elite for cover. It might sponge 2-3 autoattacks from random mobs because they kill the drone first, but players see the non stealthed drone and just throw aoe’s your way. Killing you and the drone in one go. All of them are so useless from hand to hand combat as it gets. Revealed toolbelt is literally the only good thing about it.

I would trade all of these trash AI things for a single dragonhunter trap (ok maybe not the heal trap)

I can’t even tell where traps would be useful

People should seriously stop looking at the skills as a slice and look at the full picture.

Bulwark + Elixir Gun + Protection = Ton of damage mitgation. Ontop of a movable reflection shield.

Blasthe could possibly tag a target before it goes into stealth. The drone would chase the target so it could be seen asome also a reveal drone ontop of a group knock back that moves at a high speed.

Shredder with Elixir gun can launch out a ton of cleansing, healing and even damage bolts. On top of the fact you get to place it whoever you want. Put down a smoke bomb and then put down Shredder. Blinding bolts. This offers tonsome variety into what it can do.

Elite gyro. It’s a pulsing field! It last for a long tike. Like the PoI broadcasters said. No one knows how much people are in that field. Even if the drone is visible, you can still set up combos and not be affected by single target skills. This is still strong.

The heal bot offers protection and a water field. So ontop of burst mitgation, you have 5 seconds for you and teammates to drop as many heals on you as possible to get out a great team heals.

The hammer 1-5 and the bulwark are good. The rest is absolute garbage.

iKeostuKen.2738:

People should seriously stop looking at the skills as a slice and look at the full picture.

Bulwark + Elixir Gun + Protection = Ton of damage mitgation. Ontop of a movable reflection shield.

Blasthe could possibly tag a target before it goes into stealth. The drone would chase the target so it could be seen asome also a reveal drone ontop of a group knock back that moves at a high speed.

Shredder with Elixir gun can launch out a ton of cleansing, healing and even damage bolts. On top of the fact you get to place it whoever you want. Put down a smoke bomb and then put down Shredder. Blinding bolts. This offers tonsome variety into what it can do.

Elite gyro. It’s a pulsing field! It last for a long tike. Like the PoI broadcasters said. No one knows how much people are in that field. Even if the drone is visible, you can still set up combos and not be affected by single target skills. This is still strong.

The heal bot offers protection and a water field. So ontop of burst mitgation, you have 5 seconds for you and teammates to drop as many heals on you as possible to get out a great team heals.

All of those are solid ideas,but they are even better when you take the gyros out.

You ditch bullwrak and take a block or real invul instead of an ai that will die on you in seconds.
You ditch the shredder because elixir gun can cleanse lots of condis with out it just fine.
Or you just ditch the blaster and get the same just better and not so easily countered on a shorter cd.
Ok say you want blinding bolts for example. Even if it survives that full duration of the blind field it will surely melt right after. And now you just spent a 30secs utility on a few bolts. If you really want a few blinding bolts just spin with your hammer.

Ok so you want stealth. Target limit 5, so you and 4 others could be hidden under the not so secret stealth drone that everyone sees comming from a mile away. I’d rather ditch the drone, blast a smoke bomb and go in with true stealth.

Yea you get a waterfield on the healbot. Or i just ditch the drone, take the turret with 2 waterfields and non ai reliant heals and cleanse for me and my allies on demand.

Everything just gets better when you leave the useless ai drones out.
/salt

To judge our elite spec appropriately we should probably forget about the gyros and focus on the rest (incl. gyro Toolbelt stuff). Turrets or gyros that all pop from one Mirror Blade are rarely worth to be cast in first place.
Otoh, if AN designed them to be resilient enough not to die casually, they might be worth a try. But judging from the turret obliteration, that is unlikely.

I feel like the healing and bulwark Gyro have more potential synergy than some realize. The heal gyro toolbelt gives Protection. Using your heal can potentially Protection as well. Placing the Bulwark gyro in the heal bot belt skill means it’s taking less damage and is healing. If you have the heal bot out and have other sources of Protection that means the damage the Bulwark is taking is less multiple times over. This whole time the heal drone is healing both of you.

I’m not sure if that is how it will work but if it does that sounds tanky as hell.

BurrTheKing.8571:

I feel like the healing and bulwark Gyro have more potential synergy than some realize. The heal gyro toolbelt gives Protection. Using your heal can potentially Protection as well. Placing the Bulwark gyro in the heal bot belt skill means it’s taking less damage and is healing. If you have the heal bot out and have other sources of Protection that means the damage the Bulwark is taking is less multiple times over. This whole time the heal drone is healing both of you.

I’m not sure if that is how it will work but if it does that sounds tanky as hell.

I see lots of synergy to melt all of that with aoe. Bullwrak takes damage you take, it takes itsself and what your other drones take. Not to mention you split your heal between you and your other drones ( if that is indded how it works). Looks to me like you improove the effectiveness of your opponents aoe and lower your own strength with every drone you take.

Ug more complaining and this time even before testing. Awesome. Lord what is wrong with these people? What makes them so unhappy?Lifetime of “first world problems” cloud their ability to identify true issues? So they just bark and complain about everything? I dunno. but i do know its starting to make me crazy! crazy!!!!

Bots will have their place. with this new wep and spec we can officially do everything.and now have enough mite stacking synergy to live at 18-25 stacks fo life. armor will change.(I believe this will be the true age of celestial for most classes).. builds will change.. and guess what.. opponents will change too. stop complaining. I mean i get it.. some of these bots look very lack luster but definetly not all of them and overall these changes will bring Improvements to the engineer

and fyi
we haveREZ BOTS and STOMP BOTS with stability…………………………………………………… how the hell can you be unhappy about tha???? focus on the good… you can do it!

Rocknull.2986:

Ug more complaining and this time even before testing. Awesome. Lord what is wrong with these people? What makes them so unhappy?Lifetime of “first world problems” cloud their ability to identify true issues? So they just bark and complain about everything? I dunno. but i do know its starting to make me crazy! crazy!!!!

Bots will have their place. with this new wep and spec we can officially do everything.and now have enough mite stacking synergy to live at 18-25 stacks fo life. armor will change.(I believe this will be the true age of celestial for most classes).. builds will change.. and guess what.. opponents will change too. stop complaining. I mean i get it.. some of these bots look very lack luster but definetly not all of them and overall these changes will bring Improvements to the engineer

and fyi
we haveREZ BOTS and STOMP BOTS with stability…………………………………………………… how the hell can you be unhappy about tha???? focus on the good… you can do it!

Because i’m not silly and I don’t buy into Anet’s…I don’t even know what to call it. It’s like they don’t even play their own game.

I have stability as well. I have pulsing stability with flamethrower. AND a blind! Wow! It’s almost like the auto-stomp is pretty much irrelevant! Auto-rez might be good, though.

Also what? We can officially do everything? Yeah, we did that before, the problem is that all the options are so boring. Here, throw grenades. Throw them 5 times, you silly engie! Each time with a different color! What’s that? You want other options? Don’t worry, we nerfed mortar kit so that doesn’t happen you imbecile, go back to nades you moron and if you EVER think about using a kit that isn’t grenades ever again i’ll ruin your turrets a second time.

I mean, what hurts even more than the Gyro’s being STATISTICALLY bad is the fact that they aren’t even entertaining or fun to use.

Oh boy. Cleansing. Oh boy. Stealth. Oh boy. 50% less damage. I sure do love my passive, statistic bonuses.

For the love of GOD Reaper’s get to spin a giant scythe around and shout at people. Berserker’s get the kitten kill shot. Chronomancers get unique buffs.

WE GET A SUICIDE BOT THAT DEALS LESS DAMAGE THAN A CROWBAR.

COME ON, MAN. WAKE UP.

Reaper said hi….

How often does the Heal Gyro trigger team heal?

the only useful gyros are the elite and condi cleanse gyros probably bulwark, except they are all useless because they have a lifespan of 10-12 seconds and cooldowns of 30+ seconds and that is if you arent under AoE/Cleave attacks in wich case gyros will last 1-2 seconds

unlike other minions this pieces of junk dont even have traits giving them extra hp and toughness nor damage and im sure as hell they dont scale with engineer stats either.

It’s hilarious Engis are complaining about them while Guardians are looking at Gyros and hoping they become a good argument that Spirit Weapons should be reviewed/improved, because gyros are plainly the same thing only better.

Pride.1734:

iKeostuKen.2738:

People should seriously stop looking at the skills as a slice and look at the full picture.

Bulwark + Elixir Gun + Protection = Ton of damage mitgation. Ontop of a movable reflection shield.

Blasthe could possibly tag a target before it goes into stealth. The drone would chase the target so it could be seen asome also a reveal drone ontop of a group knock back that moves at a high speed.

Shredder with Elixir gun can launch out a ton of cleansing, healing and even damage bolts. On top of the fact you get to place it whoever you want. Put down a smoke bomb and then put down Shredder. Blinding bolts. This offers tonsome variety into what it can do.

Elite gyro. It’s a pulsing field! It last for a long tike. Like the PoI broadcasters said. No one knows how much people are in that field. Even if the drone is visible, you can still set up combos and not be affected by single target skills. This is still strong.

The heal bot offers protection and a water field. So ontop of burst mitgation, you have 5 seconds for you and teammates to drop as many heals on you as possible to get out a great team heals.

All of those are solid ideas,but they are even better when you take the gyros out.

You ditch bullwrak and take a block or real invul instead of an ai that will die on you in seconds.
You ditch the shredder because elixir gun can cleanse lots of condis with out it just fine.
Or you just ditch the blaster and get the same just better and not so easily countered on a shorter cd.
Ok say you want blinding bolts for example. Even if it survives that full duration of the blind field it will surely melt right after. And now you just spent a 30secs utility on a few bolts. If you really want a few blinding bolts just spin with your hammer.

Ok so you want stealth. Target limit 5, so you and 4 others could be hidden under the not so secret stealth drone that everyone sees comming from a mile away. I’d rather ditch the drone, blast a smoke bomb and go in with true stealth.

Yea you get a waterfield on the healbot. Or i just ditch the drone, take the turret with 2 waterfields and non ai reliant heals and cleanse for me and my allies on demand.

Everything just gets better when you leave the useless ai drones out.
/salt

Well the thing is. Some attacks are unblockable. Atleast if your hit with those the damage is still mitigated.

Elixir gun can cleanse conditions, yes. But it doesn’t do rapid cleansing like a shredder would do with its bolts.

It’s not wasted if it accomplish something. I play mesmer and even my clones last a while so I doubt the gyros would get melted. If they did then it means it’s being good cannon fodder or its player error for placing it on a enemy aoe.

Stealth gyro offers unique plays types to be made as well. For one it’s a aoe reveal. Which is really needed. And secondly for the fact that you can pull off some serious mind games.

The medic gyro needs to be tested in game before it’s ruled out.

Gyros offer a tactical playing field which is awesome. It isn’t going to be a simple use and gain result.

I have a feeling this is just going to be a QQ thread due to someone not getting an OP Elite spec. Im sorry, But Gyros are currently targetable and killable. Until we know otherwise we shouldnt flame down the Scrapper just because its utilities are AI based. What were you expecting when you saw Scrapper? Flying drones dealing over 1 mil dmg/sec? never gonna happen. Engi was well rounded, so they gave us a spec we really didnt have, and that was Lockdown and Breakbar management.

TsukuZankaze.6951:

I have a feeling this is just going to be a QQ thread due to someone not getting an OP Elite spec. Im sorry, But Gyros are currently targetable and killable. Until we know otherwise we shouldnt flame down the Scrapper just because its utilities are AI based. What were you expecting when you saw Scrapper? Flying drones dealing over 1 mil dmg/sec? never gonna happen. Engi was well rounded, so they gave us a spec we really didnt have, and that was Lockdown and Breakbar management.

They were expecting invincible AI, on short cooldowns, with powerful skills.

I was gonna reply but i give up. go play a reaper my dude stop leaving your stink on this forum

I would like to see one change to gyros before BWE3. Give them a permanent Endure Pain buff. This might be enough to make them useful.

It would also be nice if the detonate was a blast finisher, really odd that the Scrapper doesn’t have a single one. Not nearly as big if a deal at this point.

Okay here is the deal. No matter how good a minion is, its not viable if it can’t survive long enough to do anything. Just ask our turrets who range from varying degrees of usability. But no matter how good they were, they were almost all instantly dropped overnight after the turret-condition “balance” since they are now instantly destroyed by aoe. And here we are now, getting even more minions with the exact same weakness.
I am not looking for op skills, I am looking for skills I can use that will survive long enough to actually do something.

Let’s be serious, who can think they’ll even survive for their full duration? Over ten seconds, lol…they’ll end up dead in four or five seconds, at most. Even less in some cases, since they’re supposed to follow the scrapper into the fights.
We all saw what happened after they made turrets susceptible to criticals and conditions. It will just happen again with the gyros.
Guess they will never learn for their past mistakes…

Manuhell.2759:

Let’s be serious, who can think they’ll even survive for their full duration? Over ten seconds, lol…they’ll end up dead in four or five seconds, at most. Even less in some cases, since they’re supposed to follow the scrapper into the fights.
We all saw what happened after they made turrets susceptible to criticals and conditions. It will just happen again with the gyros.
Guess they will never learn for their past mistakes…

I submit that Gyros SHOULD NOT be designed with the intent of being long lived.

We should be rewarded for keeping gyros out for more than 3 – 5 seconds, but they should be effective in that time period. Anything else makes them much to frustrating to fight against or use.

It isn’t like their survival even depends on us. They just follow the scrapper and do whatever the AI says them to do.
And since there are things called “kits” that don’t even suffer from this issue, either those gyro will do something real good while they’re alive (and enough to compensate for the downtime) or we can just use kits instead. Since those are effective all the time. And we don’t even have to worry about them being killed.

Manuhell.2759:

It isn’t like their survival even depends on us. They just follow the scrapper and do whatever the AI says them to do.
And since there are things called “kits” that don’t even suffer from this issue, either those gyro will do something real good while they’re alive (and enough to compensate for the downtime) or we can just use kits instead. Since those are effective all the time. And we don’t even have to worry about them being killed.

The idea of being ‘rewarded’ for keeping them around was more a throwaway than anything else.

The important thing is that they unload the bulk of their usability within a short period. Balancing them to last longer is a nightmare waiting to happen.

Nike.2631:

It’s hilarious Engis are complaining about them while Guardians are looking at Gyros and hoping they become a good argument that Spirit Weapons should be reviewed/improved, because gyros are plainly the same thing only better.

Except that this doesn’t mean gyros are good, it just means that spirit weapons are even worse. How bad must spirit weapons be if these look so good in comparison?

wolfyrik.2017:

Nike.2631:

It’s hilarious Engis are complaining about them while Guardians are looking at Gyros and hoping they become a good argument that Spirit Weapons should be reviewed/improved, because gyros are plainly the same thing only better.

Except that this doesn’t mean gyros are good, it just means that spirit weapons are even worse. How bad must spirit weapons be if these look so good in comparison?

Pretty bad, obviously .

The viability of Spirit Weapons has nothing to do with Gyros. Gyros are also better in every way than turrets, that doesn’t mean they’re good.

How is it hilarious that we want to provide feedback on underwhelming elite spec utilities to hopefully get them improved? Isn’t that the point of the POI reveal and, you know, Irenio telling us it’s not finished and he wants feedback?

Oh goodness. please don’t misunderstand. In my role as Guardian/Dragonhunter enthusiast, I want gyros to be better. I want the to be friken AWESOME. So that when the discussion comes around again on the G side of the house we can point to gyros and say “Look at that? See those gyros over there? That’s on a level people use. That’s on a level competitive builds get wrapped around. That’s the kind of impact Spirit Weapons should be bringing to the table.”

Adamantium.3682:

The viability of Spirit Weapons has nothing to do with Gyros. Gyros are also better in every way than turrets, that doesn’t mean they’re good.

How is it hilarious that we want to provide feedback on underwhelming elite spec utilities to hopefully get them improved? Isn’t that the point of the POI reveal and, you know, Irenio telling us it’s not finished and he wants feedback?

Its hilarious because no one has tried out the spec yet but they want to assume something is Dead on Arrival before they themselves have even tried to use it. Everyone is looking at what the gyro does from tooltip perspective, but not how it will perform in some real scenarios in game.

Nike.2631:

Oh goodness. please don’t misunderstand. In my role as Guardian/Dragonhunter enthusiast, I want gyros to be better. I want the to be friken AWESOME. So that when the discussion comes around again on the G side of the house we can point to gyros and say “Look at that? See those gyros over there? That’s on a level people use. That’s on a level competitive builds get wrapped around. That’s the kind of impact Spirit Weapons should be bringing to the table.”

Take a look at the medkit and what happened to it during the overhaul. Be careful with your wishes, the risk that your situation will be even worse after it, is incredibly high.
Also see the mortar, 2 days after the release its AA got nerfed by -28% without a good reason.

iKeostuKen.2738:

Adamantium.3682:

The viability of Spirit Weapons has nothing to do with Gyros. Gyros are also better in every way than turrets, that doesn’t mean they’re good.

How is it hilarious that we want to provide feedback on underwhelming elite spec utilities to hopefully get them improved? Isn’t that the point of the POI reveal and, you know, Irenio telling us it’s not finished and he wants feedback?

Its hilarious because no one has tried out the spec yet but they want to assume something is Dead on Arrival before they themselves have even tried to use it. Everyone is looking at what the gyro does from tooltip perspective, but not how it will perform in some real scenarios in game.

I would normally be with you, but I have a couple issues with this.

1) We have seen it. We saw it on the POI, we saw it after the POI with an actual damage centric amulet. We saw the health numbers of the gyros, we saw the damage numbers of all the skills. We absolutely know what these do, you’re argument held water if we’re all talking about this on Thursday, but since the POI it no longer does. When I see the tank gyro has barely 10k health with no damage reduction whatsoever, I don’t need to play it to know it’s turrets all over again.

2) Irenio specifically said he doesn’t think this is finished yet (I could see how people would find the doom and gloom in that, but I appreciate that statement). He wants feedback. He wants us to tell him what we like and what we don’t like.

3) Even if Irenio himself hadn’t specifically said those things, HoT launches in a month. 4 weeks. One of those weeks is going to be a BWE, and due to Twitch Con that will be at most 3 weeks before HoT launch. Consider that Irenio is also in charge of the Druid. He will have 3 weeks at most to take in feedback from BWE3 and make changes before HoT to BOTH of the last elite specs. If we were providing feedback based on pure speculation, yes I would agree with you. But we’re not, and although there is still some speculation floating around I’m trying to limit it as much as possible in my posts and comment only on known facts. We need to make these 4 weeks as productive as possible in terms of feedback. When we have as much information as we have (all traits and skill details) it makes no sense to not give feedback on them.

Adamantium.3682:

iKeostuKen.2738:

Adamantium.3682:

The viability of Spirit Weapons has nothing to do with Gyros. Gyros are also better in every way than turrets, that doesn’t mean they’re good.

How is it hilarious that we want to provide feedback on underwhelming elite spec utilities to hopefully get them improved? Isn’t that the point of the POI reveal and, you know, Irenio telling us it’s not finished and he wants feedback?

Its hilarious because no one has tried out the spec yet but they want to assume something is Dead on Arrival before they themselves have even tried to use it. Everyone is looking at what the gyro does from tooltip perspective, but not how it will perform in some real scenarios in game.

I would normally be with you, but I have a couple issues with this.

1) We have seen it. We saw it on the POI, we saw it after the POI with an actual damage centric amulet. We saw the health numbers of the gyros, we saw the damage numbers of all the skills. We absolutely know what these do, you’re argument held water if we’re all talking about this on Thursday, but since the POI it no longer does. When I see the tank gyro has barely 10k health with no damage reduction whatsoever, I don’t need to play it to know it’s turrets all over again.

2) Irenio specifically said he doesn’t think this is finished yet (I could see how people would find the doom and gloom in that, but I appreciate that statement). He wants feedback. He wants us to tell him what we like and what we don’t like.

3) Even if Irenio himself hadn’t specifically said those things, HoT launches in a month. 4 weeks. One of those weeks is going to be a BWE, and due to Twitch Con that will be at most 3 weeks before HoT launch. Consider that Irenio is also in charge of the Druid. He will have 3 weeks at most to take in feedback from BWE3 and make changes before HoT to BOTH of the last elite specs. If we were providing feedback based on pure speculation, yes I would agree with you. But we’re not, and although there is still some speculation floating around I’m trying to limit it as much as possible in my posts and comment only on known facts. We need to make these 4 weeks as productive as possible in terms of feedback. When we have as much information as we have (all traits and skill details) it makes no sense to not give feedback on them.

1) Youve seen it. Ok sure, But no one has tested it with their own build to know the worth. He only showcased the skills, not what everything is truly capable of. When he was reflecting arrows back at the golems, it seemed as though those numbers were coming from a complete glass cannon ranger built on assassin runes and crit. How rare is it for people to run around being made of that much glass? All gyros will be affected by boons so regen and protection will help greatly in this case ontop of being able to reflect arrows back to its source which was shown on a few skills themselves.

2)Ok sure, he wants feedback. But at this rate, its feedback from people who havent tested it for themselves. Thats like saying you watched someone drive a car and want to give a review on how it felt. It wouldnt be taken seriously by those who manufactured it.

3)How about some accurate information then? People are being pessimistic with there scenarios which doesnt help at all with feedback. To me this profession seems like its tactical team support. But people arent taking the support area of what the gyros can do into consideration because all we hear the complaints about are how long they last, how fast they die. But never anything about toolbelt or the skills in combination of other ones.

iKeostuKen.2738:

Adamantium.3682:

iKeostuKen.2738:

Adamantium.3682:

The viability of Spirit Weapons has nothing to do with Gyros. Gyros are also better in every way than turrets, that doesn’t mean they’re good.

How is it hilarious that we want to provide feedback on underwhelming elite spec utilities to hopefully get them improved? Isn’t that the point of the POI reveal and, you know, Irenio telling us it’s not finished and he wants feedback?

Its hilarious because no one has tried out the spec yet but they want to assume something is Dead on Arrival before they themselves have even tried to use it. Everyone is looking at what the gyro does from tooltip perspective, but not how it will perform in some real scenarios in game.

I would normally be with you, but I have a couple issues with this.

1) We have seen it. We saw it on the POI, we saw it after the POI with an actual damage centric amulet. We saw the health numbers of the gyros, we saw the damage numbers of all the skills. We absolutely know what these do, you’re argument held water if we’re all talking about this on Thursday, but since the POI it no longer does. When I see the tank gyro has barely 10k health with no damage reduction whatsoever, I don’t need to play it to know it’s turrets all over again.

2) Irenio specifically said he doesn’t think this is finished yet (I could see how people would find the doom and gloom in that, but I appreciate that statement). He wants feedback. He wants us to tell him what we like and what we don’t like.

3) Even if Irenio himself hadn’t specifically said those things, HoT launches in a month. 4 weeks. One of those weeks is going to be a BWE, and due to Twitch Con that will be at most 3 weeks before HoT launch. Consider that Irenio is also in charge of the Druid. He will have 3 weeks at most to take in feedback from BWE3 and make changes before HoT to BOTH of the last elite specs. If we were providing feedback based on pure speculation, yes I would agree with you. But we’re not, and although there is still some speculation floating around I’m trying to limit it as much as possible in my posts and comment only on known facts. We need to make these 4 weeks as productive as possible in terms of feedback. When we have as much information as we have (all traits and skill details) it makes no sense to not give feedback on them.

1) Youve seen it. Ok sure, But no one has tested it with their own build to know the worth. He only showcased the skills, not what everything is truly capable of. When he was reflecting arrows back at the golems, it seemed as though those numbers were coming from a complete glass cannon ranger built on assassin runes and crit. How rare is it for people to run around being made of that much glass? All gyros will be affected by boons so regen and protection will help greatly in this case ontop of being able to reflect arrows back to its source which was shown on a few skills themselves.

2)Ok sure, he wants feedback. But at this rate, its feedback from people who havent tested it for themselves. Thats like saying you watched someone drive a car and want to give a review on how it felt. It wouldnt be taken seriously by those who manufactured it.

3)How about some accurate information then? People are being pessimistic with there scenarios which doesnt help at all with feedback. To me this profession seems like its tactical team support. But people arent taking the support area of what the gyros can do into consideration because all we hear the complaints about are how long they last, how fast they die. But never anything about toolbelt or the skills in combination of other ones.

I still think you’re off on some of this.

1) I don’t need to play it to know that 12k health for the tankiest gyro is bad. They follow us into battle, or in the case of the Shredder we place them directly into battle. They will die instantly. I’m okay with the intent to be short term bots that have a meaningful function, but that currently isn’t the case.

2) In your analogy the manufacturer has asked for feedback on the features of the car, not how it feels to drive. We’re telling him the body looks great, the seats are comfortable, but the sound system sucks really bad.

3) All you see is talk about how fast they will die because that’s what matters. It doesn’t matter how cool they are if they can’t live to be cool. I don’t see pessimism to be honest, and I made a post just a few days ago saying these forums really seem to be going downhill. This was after the Wednesday article when it was pure conjecture and doom and gloom. What I see now is most people agreeing the hammer is awesome, the traits are pretty solid, but the gyros are terrible. I see a lot of constructive posts. I don’t see pessimism I see a lot of helpful suggestions to make gyros not suck.

iKeostuKen.2738:

3)How about some accurate information then? People are being pessimistic with there scenarios which doesnt help at all with feedback. To me this profession seems like its tactical team support. But people arent taking the support area of what the gyros can do into consideration because all we hear the complaints about are how long they last, how fast they die. But never anything about toolbelt or the skills in combination of other ones.

Why would we need to bother, if the gyros aren’t worth taking for the main skill, why would we take them for their easily replacable toolbelts? There is very little in the toolbelts skills which isn’t already covered by pretty much the mortar kit alone. There’s almost nothing the gyro toolbelts do that the kit’s don’t do as well or better. The kits have their own toolbelts on top of all that, and can’t be stopped by AoE or cleave skills.

edit to include:

Kit’s also aren’t reliant on AI. Place a bomb down, it explodes. Send out a gyro, it has to survive, path to an enemy, then explode. Which do you think is going to be more reliable and more efficient?

Adamantium.3682:

I still think you’re off on some of this.

1) I don’t need to play it to know that 12k health for the tankiest gyro is bad. They follow us into battle, or in the case of the Shredder we place them directly into battle. They will die instantly. I’m okay with the intent to be short term bots that have a meaningful function, but that currently isn’t the case.

2) In your analogy the manufacturer has asked for feedback on the features of the car, not how it feels to drive. We’re telling him the body looks great, the seats are comfortable, but the sound system sucks really bad.

3) All you see is talk about how fast they will die because that’s what matters. It doesn’t matter how cool they are if they can’t live to be cool. I don’t see pessimism to be honest, and I made a post just a few days ago saying these forums really seem to be going downhill. This was after the Wednesday article when it was pure conjecture and doom and gloom. What I see now is most people agreeing the hammer is awesome, the traits are pretty solid, but the gyros are terrible. I see a lot of constructive posts. I don’t see pessimism I see a lot of helpful suggestions to make gyros not suck.

1)If your using a hammer sure. But what about if your using a rifle or pistol? Or even Elixir gun. The chances of them dieing from cleave will be reduced greatly. As for the shredder, place it somewhere that can benefit teammates or even behind the enemy. From what your saying, your placing it right ontop of the enemies aoe.

2)If you werent inside the car and was just a outside observer, you wouldnt know 2 of the 3.

3)There is pessimism because people arent even trying to see the good in it. All they complain about is its health but dont try to see ways of using the thing without saying. “Itl Die fast cause cleave and aoe”. thats literally all minions, but these dont have the whole, chase down enemy concept to charge through enemy attacks. You have a chance to defend some of these and i honestly doubt they will be targeted over a number of teammates constantly in there face.

wolfyrik.2017:

iKeostuKen.2738:

3)How about some accurate information then? People are being pessimistic with there scenarios which doesnt help at all with feedback. To me this profession seems like its tactical team support. But people arent taking the support area of what the gyros can do into consideration because all we hear the complaints about are how long they last, how fast they die. But never anything about toolbelt or the skills in combination of other ones.

Why would we need to bother, if the gyros aren’t worth taking for the main skill, why would we take them for their easily replacable toolbelts? There is very little in the toolbelts skills which isn’t already covered by pretty much the mortar kit alone. There’s almost nothing the gyro toolbelts do that the kit’s don’t do as well or better. The kits have their own toolbelts on top of all that, and can’t be stopped by AoE or cleave skills.

edit to include:

Kit’s also aren’t reliant on AI. Place a bomb down, it explodes. Send out a gyro, it has to survive, path to an enemy, then explode. Which do you think is going to be more reliable and more efficient?

Lets see flamethrower do a whirl finisher. No? Ok how about kit…Elixir gun…Right.
Lets see turrets mitigate damage….
Or how about tool kit reflecting a barrage of attacks to its source while helping teammates.
Healing turret giving protection? Sure its heals are better but does it help you live through 5 seconds of burst? Pop it before battle and Survive long enough to be able to push the fight into your advantage.

The gyros offer unique styles of play. Its great because its not a Min/Max thing. It just fits into many different playstyles.

I think the one thats more reliable is the one that can blow the enemy off the side with range if your being kited.

iKeostuKen.2738:

Adamantium.3682:

I still think you’re off on some of this.

1) I don’t need to play it to know that 12k health for the tankiest gyro is bad. They follow us into battle, or in the case of the Shredder we place them directly into battle. They will die instantly. I’m okay with the intent to be short term bots that have a meaningful function, but that currently isn’t the case.

2) In your analogy the manufacturer has asked for feedback on the features of the car, not how it feels to drive. We’re telling him the body looks great, the seats are comfortable, but the sound system sucks really bad.

3) All you see is talk about how fast they will die because that’s what matters. It doesn’t matter how cool they are if they can’t live to be cool. I don’t see pessimism to be honest, and I made a post just a few days ago saying these forums really seem to be going downhill. This was after the Wednesday article when it was pure conjecture and doom and gloom. What I see now is most people agreeing the hammer is awesome, the traits are pretty solid, but the gyros are terrible. I see a lot of constructive posts. I don’t see pessimism I see a lot of helpful suggestions to make gyros not suck.

1)If your using a hammer sure. But what about if your using a rifle or pistol? Or even Elixir gun. The chances of them dieing from cleave will be reduced greatly. As for the shredder, place it somewhere that can benefit teammates or even behind the enemy. From what your saying, your placing it right ontop of the enemies aoe.

2)If you werent inside the car and was just a outside observer, you wouldnt know 2 of the 3.

3)There is pessimism because people arent even trying to see the good in it. All they complain about is its health but dont try to see ways of using the thing without saying. “Itl Die fast cause cleave and aoe”. thats literally all minions, but these dont have the whole, chase down enemy concept to charge through enemy attacks. You have a chance to defend some of these and i honestly doubt they will be targeted over a number of teammates constantly in there face.

Alright, one more try.

1) The Scrapper is designed to be in close combat. The gyros need to survive in that environment, period. Saying they’ll work at range is not a solution (and still not true as 1 AOE circle is likely to kill them — they don’t dodge).

2) kitten man, it was your analogy! We have seen enough of the Scrapper to be able to provide some feedback, period.

3) 2/3 parts of the Scrapper are good and most people here seem to agree with that. It’s the gyros that are bad. This is not pessimism. I don’t get why gyros dying so fast is not a big deal to you, that literally trumps anything else they can do. If they’re not alive they can’t do anything. The tankiest one has 11k health. The tankiest. This is supposed to absorb damage from our whole group. 11k.

Adamantium.3682:

iKeostuKen.2738:

Adamantium.3682:

I still think you’re off on some of this.

1) I don’t need to play it to know that 12k health for the tankiest gyro is bad. They follow us into battle, or in the case of the Shredder we place them directly into battle. They will die instantly. I’m okay with the intent to be short term bots that have a meaningful function, but that currently isn’t the case.

2) In your analogy the manufacturer has asked for feedback on the features of the car, not how it feels to drive. We’re telling him the body looks great, the seats are comfortable, but the sound system sucks really bad.

3) All you see is talk about how fast they will die because that’s what matters. It doesn’t matter how cool they are if they can’t live to be cool. I don’t see pessimism to be honest, and I made a post just a few days ago saying these forums really seem to be going downhill. This was after the Wednesday article when it was pure conjecture and doom and gloom. What I see now is most people agreeing the hammer is awesome, the traits are pretty solid, but the gyros are terrible. I see a lot of constructive posts. I don’t see pessimism I see a lot of helpful suggestions to make gyros not suck.

1)If your using a hammer sure. But what about if your using a rifle or pistol? Or even Elixir gun. The chances of them dieing from cleave will be reduced greatly. As for the shredder, place it somewhere that can benefit teammates or even behind the enemy. From what your saying, your placing it right ontop of the enemies aoe.

2)If you werent inside the car and was just a outside observer, you wouldnt know 2 of the 3.

3)There is pessimism because people arent even trying to see the good in it. All they complain about is its health but dont try to see ways of using the thing without saying. “Itl Die fast cause cleave and aoe”. thats literally all minions, but these dont have the whole, chase down enemy concept to charge through enemy attacks. You have a chance to defend some of these and i honestly doubt they will be targeted over a number of teammates constantly in there face.

Alright, one more try.

1) The Scrapper is designed to be in close combat. The gyros need to survive in that environment, period. Saying they’ll work at range is not a solution (and still not true as 1 AOE circle is likely to kill them — they don’t dodge).

2) kitten man, it was your analogy! We have seen enough of the Scrapper to be able to provide some feedback, period.

3) 2/3 parts of the Scrapper are good and most people here seem to agree with that. It’s the gyros that are bad. This is not pessimism. I don’t get why gyros dying so fast is not a big deal to you, that literally trumps anything else they can do. If they’re not alive they can’t do anything. The tankiest one has 11k health. The tankiest. This is supposed to absorb damage from our whole group. 11k.

1)Ok, as i said it offers a diversity when it comes to play. Tool belt skills are close range skills. Gyros can function at any range but longer range is a bit better. They hit it so it wasnt locked down to just one style of play. What aoe is doing that much damage to you? If this is PvE i can understand but if its PvP and WvW then i doubt anything but a meteor storm will be a problem for you.

2)The feedback being provided isnt good feedback. If youve only viewed them then saying they die to fast so they are useless isnt very constructive. Wait till BWE to try and tell its worth because theres a chance we all dont know how it will be performing in true combat situations.

3)A mesmers clones can also die fast but a lot of the time theres still 2 or 3 up for a while. Which may also work for these gyros. As for bulwark, if its a 2v2 and theres a thief backstabbing a mate for 3-7k, thats multiple times this thing can be useful. Its good for team support in its own way.

Id rather keep them under the radar to avoid the nerfs, instead of having them buffed and nerfed to hells pit later on. (Turrets) They are fine the way they are right now. Until we test them there is no need to say they suck because there could be one build where there entirely powerful and people just dont see that yet.

If you like gyros as they are, then great. Let the rest of us provide feedback on what clearly looks like it’s headed down the same road to Obsolete-town as turrets.

If you don’t think we should be providing feedback, take it up with Irenio who told us it’s not done and he wants feedback. I don’t get why you’re so stuck on this.

EDIT: Not making them better because they might one day be nerfed… this logic is mind boggling. They’re not good, they need to be better. Let’s focus on making them well balanced and useful so they don’t need to be nerfed, and they are worth using.

Adamantium.3682:

If you like gyros as they are, then great. Let the rest of us provide feedback on what clearly looks like it’s headed down the same road to Obsolete-town as turrets.

If you don’t think we should be providing feedback, take it up with Irenio who told us it’s not done and he wants feedback. I don’t get why you’re so stuck on this.

EDIT: Not making them better because they might one day be nerfed… this logic is mind boggling. They’re not good, they need to be better. Let’s focus on making them well balanced and useful so they don’t need to be nerfed, and they are worth using.

I’m not saying to not give feedback. I’m saying to use the gyros and test out builds with them before you declare them useless and ask for buffs which could in turn ruin the class.

Better as in, Turret meta better.
Im sorry but when i see suggestions as in, “No cooldown Function gyro” supported by a numerous amount, Im gonna have to be against that because it will infact ruin us in the end. Which is why i dont agree with a lot of the feedback being posted atm.

My main issue with the utilities is that the healing gyro does not hold a candle to the healing turret. I doubt I’d use it anytime soon unless tweaks have been made to make them seem attractive from my perspective. The stealth gyro is not only visible, but it can’t seem to keep up with engineers meaning that he won’t get consistent stealthing unless he slows down a notch.

And to be honest, I’d have loved to have one of the gyros replaced with one that is basically a mobile rifle turret. But what can I do? :P

Our grandmaster minor increases our stun duration. News flash, scrapper cannot stun. There one stun in the whole spec. Engineers have a grand total of five stuns. Can you name them all? One is a ripoff from another profession. One in the elite spec. It should be daze, gyro detonation should blast. This whole reveal shows that they planned something else then canceled it at the last minute. Anet even forgot that blast+lightning is the normal way to get swiftness out of the lightning field and so they botched a trait to give swife on leap. Evey gyro should blast finisher on destruct. Guess what, scrapper also cannot blast finisher internally.

They failed to deliver us an elite specialization. It is very clear that the stomp rez bot was moved down from master minor, or improvised at the last minute due to the canceling of a real elite. Players who didn’t read the notes are not even aware of stomp rez bot and it is supposed to be the new elite mechanic.

This is nothing. Wait till the BWE lets us play this weak excuse for an elite specialization. That is when I’m going to drop my big post eviscerating it.

There is not a single thing that has ever made me think about quitting this game more than this reveal. When I think about elite specializations now, the only one I’m excited for is Berserker… And Engineer has always been my main…

The idea that synergy with other trait lines is a selling point is an insult to the players. This is not to say that elite spec trait lines stand on their own but this reveal, this spec is garbage. It would not surprise me one bit if three months after hot they “retool” scrapper and rerelease it with whatever they intended to release it with.

Voramoz.6790:

Our grandmaster minor increases our stun duration. News flash, scrapper cannot stun. There is not one stun in the whole spec. Engineers have a grand total of five stuns. Can you name them all? One is a ripoff from another profession. None in the elite spec. It should be daze, gyro detonation should blast. This whole reveal shows that they planned something else then canceled it at the last minute. Anet even forgot that blast+lightning is the normal way to get swiftness out of the lightning field and so they botched a trait to give swife on leap. Evey gyro should blast finisher on destruct. Guess what, scrapper also cannot blast finisher internally.

They failed to deliver us an elite specialization. It is very clear that the stomp rez bot was moved down from master minor, or improvised at the last minute due to the canceling of a real elite. Players who didn’t read the notes are not even aware of stomp rez bot and it is supposed to be the new elite mechanic.

This is nothing. Wait till the BWE lets us play this weak excuse for an elite specialization. That is when I’m going to drop my big post eviscerating it.

There is not a single thing that has ever made me think about quitting this game more than this reveal. When I think about elite specializations now, the only one I’m excited for is Berserker… And Engineer has always been my main…

The idea that synergy with other trait lines is a selling point is an insult to the players. This is not to say that elite spec trait lines stand on their own but this reveal, this spec is garbage. It would not surprise me one bit if three months after hot they “retool” scrapper and rerelease it with whatever they intended to release it with.

Hammer #5 is actually a stun. I thought that I saw somewhere that Final Salvo upgrades the daze when a gyro dies to a stun. Either way, I think this minor trait should either (a) not be a minor trait or (b) also affect dazes which we can do a ton of. Just stuns is sort of bad since like you said we don’t have a ton of access to those. It does decrease stun duration though which is pretty great. Combined with the good amount of stability uptime you’re not likely to get stun locked too much. Still, should not be a minor and should be a choice I think.

Voramoz.6790:

Our grandmaster minor increases our stun duration. News flash, scrapper cannot stun. There is not one stun in the whole spec. Engineers have a grand total of five stuns. Can you name them all? One is a ripoff from another profession. None in the elite spec. It should be daze, gyro detonation should blast. This whole reveal shows that they planned something else then canceled it at the last minute. Anet even forgot that blast+lightning is the normal way to get swiftness out of the lightning field and so they botched a trait to give swife on leap. Evey gyro should blast finisher on destruct. Guess what, scrapper also cannot blast finisher internally.

They failed to deliver us an elite specialization. It is very clear that the stomp rez bot was moved down from master minor, or improvised at the last minute due to the canceling of a real elite. Players who didn’t read the notes are not even aware of stomp rez bot and it is supposed to be the new elite mechanic.

This is nothing. Wait till the BWE lets us play this weak excuse for an elite specialization. That is when I’m going to drop my big post eviscerating it.

There is not a single thing that has ever made me think about quitting this game more than this reveal. When I think about elite specializations now, the only one I’m excited for is Berserker… And Engineer has always been my main…

The idea that synergy with other trait lines is a selling point is an insult to the players. This is not to say that elite spec trait lines stand on their own but this reveal, this spec is garbage. It would not surprise me one bit if three months after hot they “retool” scrapper and rerelease it with whatever they intended to release it with.

I wont deny that there are issues, but I think you make way too many assumptions here.

I agree that impact savant was most likely meant to affect Daze, so that should definitely be changed. You are wrong about not having any stuns though. We have a grand total of one in thunderclap.

I genuinely believe that they purposefully avoided giving us blast finishers. All except one come from engineer utilities anyway.

That said, I think we should have one on toolbelt and one on gyro. Would love to see one on hammer, but I do not think it will fit.

As for Shocking Speed, I think it is suppose to theoretically synergize with rapid regeneration, but I think it is all in all a lackluster trait. Minor and adept in general need work.

I can jive with alot of you guys opinions. When I test Scrapper is when I’m going to submit a big nasty feedback. Hopefully, maybe they make some serious changes due to our feedback. I mean, Dragonhunter is still a work in progress.
Edit: by the way I edited the earlier post on stuns before i read some of your posts when I realized Scrapper has one stun.

iKeostuKen.2738:

Adamantium.3682:

iKeostuKen.2738:

Adamantium.3682:

I still think you’re off on some of this.

1) I don’t need to play it to know that 12k health for the tankiest gyro is bad. They follow us into battle, or in the case of the Shredder we place them directly into battle. They will die instantly. I’m okay with the intent to be short term bots that have a meaningful function, but that currently isn’t the case.

2) In your analogy the manufacturer has asked for feedback on the features of the car, not how it feels to drive. We’re telling him the body looks great, the seats are comfortable, but the sound system sucks really bad.

3) All you see is talk about how fast they will die because that’s what matters. It doesn’t matter how cool they are if they can’t live to be cool. I don’t see pessimism to be honest, and I made a post just a few days ago saying these forums really seem to be going downhill. This was after the Wednesday article when it was pure conjecture and doom and gloom. What I see now is most people agreeing the hammer is awesome, the traits are pretty solid, but the gyros are terrible. I see a lot of constructive posts. I don’t see pessimism I see a lot of helpful suggestions to make gyros not suck.

1)If your using a hammer sure. But what about if your using a rifle or pistol? Or even Elixir gun. The chances of them dieing from cleave will be reduced greatly. As for the shredder, place it somewhere that can benefit teammates or even behind the enemy. From what your saying, your placing it right ontop of the enemies aoe.

2)If you werent inside the car and was just a outside observer, you wouldnt know 2 of the 3.

3)There is pessimism because people arent even trying to see the good in it. All they complain about is its health but dont try to see ways of using the thing without saying. “Itl Die fast cause cleave and aoe”. thats literally all minions, but these dont have the whole, chase down enemy concept to charge through enemy attacks. You have a chance to defend some of these and i honestly doubt they will be targeted over a number of teammates constantly in there face.

Alright, one more try.

1) The Scrapper is designed to be in close combat. The gyros need to survive in that environment, period. Saying they’ll work at range is not a solution (and still not true as 1 AOE circle is likely to kill them — they don’t dodge).

2) kitten man, it was your analogy! We have seen enough of the Scrapper to be able to provide some feedback, period.

3) 2/3 parts of the Scrapper are good and most people here seem to agree with that. It’s the gyros that are bad. This is not pessimism. I don’t get why gyros dying so fast is not a big deal to you, that literally trumps anything else they can do. If they’re not alive they can’t do anything. The tankiest one has 11k health. The tankiest. This is supposed to absorb damage from our whole group. 11k.

1)Ok, as i said it offers a diversity when it comes to play. Tool belt skills are close range skills. Gyros can function at any range but longer range is a bit better. They hit it so it wasnt locked down to just one style of play. What aoe is doing that much damage to you? If this is PvE i can understand but if its PvP and WvW then i doubt anything but a meteor storm will be a problem for you.

2)The feedback being provided isnt good feedback. If youve only viewed them then saying they die to fast so they are useless isnt very constructive. Wait till BWE to try and tell its worth because theres a chance we all dont know how it will be performing in true combat situations.

3)A mesmers clones can also die fast but a lot of the time theres still 2 or 3 up for a while. Which may also work for these gyros. As for bulwark, if its a 2v2 and theres a thief backstabbing a mate for 3-7k, thats multiple times this thing can be useful. Its good for team support in its own way.

Id rather keep them under the radar to avoid the nerfs, instead of having them buffed and nerfed to hells pit later on. (Turrets) They are fine the way they are right now. Until we test them there is no need to say they suck because there could be one build where there entirely powerful and people just dont see that yet.

1) in pvp fighting on point is rather important for a melee based elite spec (and the spec is melee based, given its weapon, its stability options, its toughness and that given that your drones are supposed to offer aoe support which also need to be on point with the limited range they got). While it might not be 1 aoe dealing 11k damage (unless hello reaper, you know that other specialization that becomes a powerhouse when people are down or just hurt? One strike and all your drones currently in greatsword range are done for, including your heal or stomp/revive “special” mechanic) the sum of aoes quickly whipe out anything glassy that can not dodge out of it or position itself with precision. Also from our core specs we have always been the guy on the node (unless static discharging (which also got its optimal range up close) or if one is the kind of player who thought spamming nades from 1500 (now 900) was efficient). We aren’t longbow rangers or staff eles at a ledge. We have succeed in earlier metas because we got the tools to stay on the point ourselves and prevent others from doing so while dishing out diverse punishment close and personal. This spec just accentuates it to an even higher degree (weapon wise and traitwise).

3) A mesmers clones are also generated on:

*Autoattacks (if scepter)
*Usually the shortest recharging weapon skill
*Dodges
*Stunbreaks
*Shatters (with chrono)

Etc.

Of course i expect you mean phantasms, but while they tend to have a low amount of health their cooldowns start immediately, are a lot shorter (with traits to further reduce them), a lot of them are ranged and have no duration (unless their targets die).

You will notice that the primary reason for the amounts of illusions up at a given time is not a result of how tanky they are but because of the steady generation of them. We are not talking about 45 seconds between illusions here. This is not complaining that the mesmer clones and phantasms are superior, its just illustrating that basing the survival of our long recharging/short duration short range low hp gyros on the number of illusions that a mesmer have up at a given time is futile. One common complaint about the mesmers illusions is that they are easily destroyed by any kind of cleave and that they often die before getting their effects off. How many mesmers do you think would sign up for a phantasm based heal (as in summoning a phantasm and letting your heal depend on its survival)?