Guild Wars 2

I haven’t been able to play a lot since the patch but so far I found that the synergy between my kits only went up. My choice of weapon is the much dreaded Flamethrower with Elixir Gun and Rifle as sidekicks.

I usually rush the fray with Flame Blast, followed by some Flame Jets. Well into the battle I swap to Elixir Gun trying to immobilize as many as possible. Then Fumigate, a Super Elixir, Acid Bomb for the Retaliation, swap to Rifle, Jump Shot in again, swap to Flame Thrower in the air for a Flame Shield, back to Rifle, Blunderbuss as I land, Overcharged Shot. Repeat.

Sorry for the long chain but, since writing isn’t my best side, I kind of lost patience.
Of course one would have to adjust according to situation but that is the main idea.
And one more thing, I find that Glue Trail is wonderful with the Sitting Duck trait, since it can bring many stacks of vulnerability into combat.

First post before the hordes of non-whiners +1.

Second to say that I like it to.

Works great when tossing around multiple kits.
You really got to forget about the cooldown. Expect it to happen at any switch instead of trying to time it.
You’ll switch kits at different and better times/position in the field, at least I certainly have. I’m still getting used to it, but the effects are awesome.

Only tool kit’s version is disappointing because it still doesn’t override swiftness it seems.

Gideoknight.4736:

I usually rush the fray with Flame Blast, followed by some Flame Jets. Well into the battle I swap to Elixir Gun trying to immobilize as many as possible. Then Fumigate, a Super Elixir, Acid Bomb for the Retaliation, swap to Rifle, Jump Shot in again, swap to Flame Thrower in the air for a Flame Shield, back to Rifle, Blunderbuss as I land, Overcharged Shot. Repeat.

Am I missing something or are you honestly saying that it takes you a full 20 seconds to cast fumigate, super elixir, acid bomb, and jump shot? Seems like someone is really really reaching to make this change sound good.

I’ve relied on Flamethrower/Elixir gun for a long time and I do think that because of things like juggernaut that require you to stay in one kit for the majority of the time this combination are hit less hard by the changes … as long as you don’t want to use med kit and all that comes with it … or speedy kits.

Siofra Crumble.2098:

You really got to forget about the cooldown. Expect it to happen at any switch instead of trying to time it.

That would be nice except for the fact that most of the procs are completely situational. Magnetic Aura is totally useless unless I’m actually getting hit with projectiles. Fire Aura is totally useless unless I’m actually getting hit. The Elixir Gun’s immobilization is totally pointless unless I’m actually trying to run away from something.

I have nothing against the new procs. I think they’re great situational skills. But on a 20-second cooldown, with multiple kits on my bar (Med Kit + Flamethrower + Elixir Gun) it’s just not reliable or even remotely useful anymore in any reasonable metric.

I’d rather put 10 points in Inventions or Explosives instead.

@Skitza – You are right in that I squeezed it together a bit. Fight a bit longer in there, switching to flamethrower for that extra 200 toughness, or anything that takes up some time, and then continue. As said, writing isn’t my strongest skill.

On a side note, I found another reason to like Kit Refinement even if you are an one-kit wonder. It brings another skill into combat, with a cooldown of a mere 20 seconds. For example, Flame Shield, which helps in stacking burn and might. Or Magnetic Bomb, for that in-kit pull.

And you barely lose any might swapping in and out of the Flamethrower

Okay. So you’re FT spec.

You have 30 points in Firearms for Juggernaut. You have 20 points in Alchemy for Deadly Mixture. You have 10 points in Tools for Kit Refinement. That leaves 10 points to either get Cleansing Formula + Energy Conversion Matrix (1%+ damage per boon) or Incendiary Powder for perma burn.

Now, my question for you is: do you like having Kit Refinement so much that it’s better than having Incendiary Powder and ECM + Cleansing Formula?

I actually have neither. I use Backpack Regenerator for the last 10 points.

So you think a super short Fire Aura is worth more than perma burning sustaining a 10% damage boost to Flame Jet?

Phineas is right, you are losing way too much for what you are gaining. Especially since the spell are situational, and you might not evern need them.

You could go Incendiary pwder and get perma burn. That’s a lot better then “maybe” 2 stack of might each 20 sec.

Since I have a rather low crit-chance, the 10% chance of burn isn’t something I desire. And teh Fire Shield isn’t a large part of the build. And since I run with Sitting Duck, a guaranteed 8 seconds 5% damage increase for my whole party is actually better for me. I don’t run a lot on my own so yeah. And since I am rather bad at dodging I really appreciate the regen.

Gideoknight.4736:

I haven’t been able to play a lot since the patch but so far I found that the synergy between my kits only went up. My choice of weapon is the much dreaded Flamethrower with Elixir Gun and Rifle as sidekicks.

I usually rush the fray with Flame Blast, followed by some Flame Jets. Well into the battle I swap to Elixir Gun trying to immobilize as many as possible. Then Fumigate, a Super Elixir, Acid Bomb for the Retaliation, swap to Rifle, Jump Shot in again, swap to Flame Thrower in the air for a Flame Shield, back to Rifle, Blunderbuss as I land, Overcharged Shot. Repeat.

Sorry for the long chain but, since writing isn’t my best side, I kind of lost patience.
Of course one would have to adjust according to situation but that is the main idea.
And one more thing, I find that Glue Trail is wonderful with the Sitting Duck trait, since it can bring many stacks of vulnerability into combat.

Someone happy with Kit Refinement? Burn him!

In all honesty though, there are maybe one or two under-represented single kit builds that have seen love from the Kit Refinement rework, such as.. uh, turret/gadget engineers who take bomb kit? It also depends if you’re pve or pvp. I’m taking kind of a tPvP standpoint.

My problem with cool kit builds, like yours, that I WANT to be able to play, now have next to no condition removal, sustained healing, and still no threatening killing power. You can’t make your enemies dead before they make you dead, and you can’t sustain yourself or allies with condition removal, or healing. It’s the numbers I feel are weak. There’s so much sacrifice, for that air blast, fumigate and super elixir utility, when you look at how hard you can rock with grenades & toolkit numbers.

This is my point, and also my rant:

Lets look at a medkit, EG/FT support build, before Kit refinement changes of February 26th (that introduced the 10s global). This kit build that inherently has 1-2 damaging skills per kit, and 13 condition removals per minute, with up to 3 removals on demand. Post March 26th, this same (already underplayed) build is down to only one condition removal on demand every 15s from medkit, AND had the the life sustaining double super elixir healing sliced in half, effectively. For such an under-utilized build, this just leaves me in shock & awe. The maximum condition removals per minute is only 30.77% of what it was, and the AOE healing from super elixir was gutted.

It may be true that for this kit support build, which depended on Kit Refinement the most, an adept trait being 69.23% of the condition removal available and god knows how much of the AOE healing support was too good. This trait was a build defining trait, that should not have been in the adept category. Now there is no build defining trait in tools, perhaps except for static discharge, or speedy kits (lolol, both adept traits)

You may feel that you like your glue trail and fire aura once each over 40 seconds gives you a ton of synergy, but.. I refuse to play EG/FT builds that have extremely low damage output potential, that have had their survivability totally ruined. The opportunity for proper balance was to fold the healing support and condition removal back into the elixir gun, through fumigate & super elixir. The trait should be comparatively balanced. The builds that it depended on should not be garbage for trait progression’s sake.

Here’s where I get a little heated:

Nothing matches the pressure from unloading 2 pistols & a grenade kit on somebody, with high might stacks. Oh, I can also get 12 condition removals per minute, with 6 condition removals per minute for my friends, and with 6 condition removals on demand for me. Oh, this was already the best build available since Dec14th change to sigils & HGH?

Better use a ton of programming time to introduce a ton of clunky effects that 75% of the playerbase will instantly chuck, destroying the already under-represented kit based builds that depended on the previous effects without folding any viability back in.

GENIUS.JPG

LOL there is no reason to hate on the guy, i can understand where he’s coming from.. he hasn’t made KR a part of his build, KR is just there for the animations, nothing else. he’s not expecting KR to do anything, or play a part of his build, but rather just be a cool animation around his character

The two kits I mainly use are tool kit and elixir gun (I mostly use tool kit in WvW).

I feel the tool kit one is actually better than before, or at least just as good. The extra nails on the ground could be handy, but that ability was not particularly strong to begin with and you had to pre-engage your enemy before kit swapping with it. There was a straegy to combo it with magnet pull, but I always considered the extra nails to just “be there”. They’re nothing close to the thief caltrops, that’s for sure.

As I mostly use the toolkit for WvW, the super speed has actually be fairly useful. Because it overrides combat movement speed reduction, It can give you an extra boost to help get away from people chasing you, or help you get in just close enough for that magnet pull. It’s not really something that’s great for general mobility purposes, but that’s what speedy kits is for. I imagine the super speed is not that useful in PvE, and probably not super useful in sPvP unless you’re trying to run away.

As for the elixir gun, the changes are still subpar, but I found it to be useful in a similar scenario to the super speed from the toolkit. If you’re getting chased by a group in WvW, you can trip them up a bit by dropping the glue trail. Once or twice I was actually able to completely delay a five man group chasing me because they ran right into the glue, took a few seconds to readjust around it, and it allowed me to put distance between them. It’s a bit of a gimmick because it’s not that hard to avoid and they will expect it one you hit them with it once, but it can be good if you go through a choke point. It’s useful in PvE too because you can lead the mobs right into it, and drop acid bomb so they can actually get hit with all four ticks from it. I haven’t tried in out in sPvP, but it seems like it wouldn’t be exceptionally useful unless trying to trap a bunker in your acid bomb or running away like in WvW.

I’m a bit inclined to experiment with other traits to synergize with the glue drop though, namely Knee Shot and Sitting Duck. It probably won’t prove to be that effective, but it can be some nice free conditions if you are able to lead someone into them (not difficult in PvE, difficult in PvP).

The main thing that annoys me about the glue drop is that it’s a copy-pasta version of Slick Shoes, which is evident due to the fact that my character occasionally shouts “Slick Shoes!” upon activating the glue drop. The other abilities are like that too.

I agree that the new KR effects are more fun and well-thought-out than the previous ones, but the other posters are correct, unfortunately. Incendiary powder is a 33% chance to burn, and flame jet hits almost 5 times per second. Even if you have zero precision from gear, the 300 from your traitline alone will proc a lot of burning.

Although if we’re talking about a dungeon build, I could potentially see the vulnerability/immobilizes being very nice, since 1 guardian will keep burning going for your party pretty steadily anyway. It sounded like you were talking about WvW, though. It’s not too late—looking back I don’t see WvW specifically mentioned, so just say it’s a dungeon build and people will stop bothering you

No need to hate op, of course!
However, it must be stated that the cost/benefit ratio of Kit Refinement post patch has been crippled if you look at the other options for the trait points.
Ops chain looks nice on paper, but if you add numbers including cooldowns to it, it doesn’t add up, especially if you factor in fights that do not go according to plan or take more than one chain to win.
But YMMV, and ops milage apparently does, so thats that.

Edit: Making the cooldown of KR visible could potentially up it’s usefulness a bit, I think.

There is nothing to the animations. Some squats on the ground or a Bubble of Fire. (Well, that is rather awesome. But not why I use it!) I use the kit refinement trait because I feel good with it. I play for fun, nothing else.
Also because I don’t see a better use for my last ten points. A 10% chance to cause burning is good and all, but if you never trigger it, it is rather useless. 10 points into toughness hasn’t even surfaced yet, so I assume that you feel they are unnecessary too. So that leaves: Tools.

I you want, I could try and post my build. It will not be entirely accurate since I am not at home, but still.

Gideoknight.4736:

There is nothing to the animations. Some squats on the ground or a Bubble of Fire. (Well, that is rather awesome. But not why I use it!) I use the kit refinement trait because I feel good with it. I play for fun, nothing else.
Also because I don’t see a better use for my last ten points. A 10% chance to cause burning is good and all, but if you never trigger it, it is rather useless. 10 points into toughness hasn’t even surfaced yet, so I assume that you feel they are unnecessary too. So that leaves: Tools.

I you want, I could try and post my build. It will not be entirely accurate since I am not at home, but still.

yah tell us your traits we’ll find a better place for those 10 points! serious

Chaith.8256:

My problem with cool kit builds, like yours, that I WANT to be able to play, now have next to no condition removal, sustained healing, and still no threatening killing power. You can’t make your enemies dead before they make you dead, and you can’t sustain yourself or allies with condition removal, or healing. It’s the numbers I feel are weak. There’s so much sacrifice, for that air blast, fumigate and super elixir utility, when you look at how hard you can rock with grenades & toolkit numbers.

Chaith hits the nail on the head again! I would expect nothing less from the engineer who created the only build for any profession that Anet considered so OP it had to be removed from the game. It’s all about the condi removal, which now means elixirs and 409. Handy, because HGH is only 10 points further in.

Also, to the OP, incendiary powder is a 33% chance to proc burning, not a 10% chance. And you get almost five hits a second with flame jet. That would be why people keep telling you to take it.

Ah, sorry. Didn’t check it up. Well, that’s how it goes when you are too sure of yourself.
As for traits:

0
30 – Sitting Duck, Fireforged Trigger, Juggernaut
0
30 – Self-Regulating Defenses, Deadly Mixture, Backpack Regenerator
10 – Kit Refinement

I like the thought of a Juggernaut, standing in the fray. So, not so cared about damage and more about survivability.

Oh, right. Skills. I use the rifle, Healing Turret, Flamethrower, Elixir Gun, Elixir S and Elixir X. Altough I swap elites back and forth so that one could be Charrzooka or Supply Crate at any time.

I’d use Speedy Kits for better mobility and then change Sitting Duck since you aren’t going to be abusing the glue puddles from the KR. Probably to either Knee Shot for more control or Precise Sights if you really want those vulnerability stacks.

NevirSayDie.6235:

“the only build for any profession that Anet considered so OP it had to be removed from the game.”

It’s a little funny when you phrase it like that. Sure I’ll miss the unique 100nade play style that I ….practiced obsessively for a while (hehheh) – but I am happier that GW2 gameplay took a step forward by removing a 1shot mechanic. Unfortunately, Engineer gameplay then took two steps backward to achieve this, but not all is lost.

google.3709:

LOL there is no reason to hate on the guy, i can understand where he’s coming from.. he hasn’t made KR a part of his build, KR is just there for the animations, nothing else. he’s not expecting KR to do anything, or play a part of his build, but rather just be a cool animation around his character

Nobody is hating on anybody.

But you can’t argue around the fact that 10 points for Incendiary Powder gives perma burn which actually makes Flame Jet’s damage, on top of the added 100 Power, somewhat respectable.

It’s also the only way to reliably burn multiple targets, because Flame Jet’s burn on the tenth hit only affects one person even if you’re hitting 3. Incendiary Powder does not discriminate. And if you don’t care about reliably burning multiple targets, what exactly are you using the FT for over the Tool Kit?

If you’re planning on using the Flamethrower with Juggernaut for Might stacking, which requires actually staying in the Flamethrower constantly, then you have to be mindful that Kit Refinement is a pretty big sacrifice to your damage.

Chaith.8256:

I refuse to play EG/FT builds that have extremely low damage output potential, that have had their survivability totally ruined.

The loss of two condition removals through kit swapping has affected its durability over lengthy fights, but to say that the FT/EG build has had its survivability “totally ruined” is a bit of an exaggeration. Wearing a Soldier trinket with socketed Knight jewel, an FT Engineer has 25K HP with close to 3K armor. The lost of one removed condition does not “totally ruin” anything.

It sounds like to me you just have a bias of kit-definitive builds on the whole, because the Grenade Kit, Bomb Kit, and Tool Kit have no native self-condition removal skills either (though Throw Wrench can proc one with a Light field).

Chaith.8256:

NevirSayDie.6235:

“the only build for any profession that Anet considered so OP it had to be removed from the game.”

It’s a little funny when you phrase it like that. Sure I’ll miss the unique 100nade play style that I ….practiced obsessively for a while (hehheh) – but I am happier that GW2 gameplay took a step forward by removing a 1shot mechanic. Unfortunately, Engineer gameplay then took two steps backward to achieve this, but not all is lost.

I’m right there with you.

@Phineas
yea, incendary is the obvious best choise, it sucks tho that they added that internal cool down so in 2+ fights, probably won’t be burning the person you want

@Chaith.8256:
sadly as this might be, EG/FT + surprice shot on berserker gear is the strongest straight DPS we have right now. it does a lot of hits, and big hits too but no where near 100nades.. no one is gonan be saying “WTF, how you kill so fast” but ye..
ps: FT 1 sucks! i only use for #2,5 and 5 ( for sPvP Stomp )

@NevirSayDie.6235
yea… I’ll be willing to bet money this is a 1 time thing only! they made an exception just for us because we’re so special! but they won’t be removing any more builds in the near future.

Engineers are just not suppose to kill fast, thats it, strong and clear statement they made

Phineas Poe.3018:

The loss of two condition removals through kit swapping has affected its durability over lengthy fights, but to say that the FT/EG build has had its survivability “totally ruined” is a bit of an exaggeration. Wearing a Soldier trinket with socketed Knight jewel, an FT Engineer has 25K HP with close to 3K armor. The lost of one removed condition does not “totally ruin” anything.

You’re talking about something totally different than me. Survivability was a bad choice of words on my part, because I am speaking to the sustainability or effective health of engineers who choose to forego offensive options to achieve group support, or hybrid roles.

Sure man, you can put a soldier’s amulet on, for 3k toughness and 25k hp. Are you survivable? Definitely not. Your effective HP is 27k-ish, before your healing skill. What do you think a survivable staff guardian, or clerics amulet ele’s effective HP is?

We all have the tools to avoid burst. Quickness took a huge hit, 100nade is gone, I would like to think Mug is on the chopping block in the future.. I mean – the biggest problem in tPvP right now is how powerful the support skills from Elementalists and Guardians are.

Eles can equip a valk/clerics amulet and have damage/control & support, and have the disengage tools to survive indefinitely and hugely affect teamfights.

An engineer with a soldier’s amulet, and no condition removal is a hybrid. Part damage, and part fool. The only thing soldier’s amulet accomplishes is it serves as a direct counter to hotjoin hero thieves who will just spam 2 until they go down, without disengaging. By equipping a soldier’s amulet you’re basically saying:

“I’m cool with doing mediocre damage, and betting this fight will be over in 20 seconds. I sure hope I get some really nice control off, cause otherwise my team is carrying me. I definitely will prolong my life by 5 seconds if I do get outplayed and eat some full combos, though.”

Chaith.8256:

Phineas Poe.3018:

The loss of two condition removals through kit swapping has affected its durability over lengthy fights, but to say that the FT/EG build has had its survivability “totally ruined” is a bit of an exaggeration. Wearing a Soldier trinket with socketed Knight jewel, an FT Engineer has 25K HP with close to 3K armor. The lost of one removed condition does not “totally ruin” anything.

You’re talking about something totally different than me. Survivability was a bad choice of words on my part, because I am speaking to the sustainability or effective health of engineers who choose to forego offensive options to achieve group support, or hybrid roles.

Sure man, you can put a soldier’s amulet on, for 3k toughness and 25k hp. Are you survivable? Definitely not. Your effective HP is 27k-ish, before your healing skill. What do you think a survivable staff guardian, or clerics amulet ele’s effective HP is?

We all have the tools to avoid burst. Quickness took a huge hit, 100nade is gone, I would like to think Mug is on the chopping block in the future.. I mean – the biggest problem in tPvP right now is how powerful the support skills from Elementalists and Guardians are.

Eles can equip a valk/clerics amulet and have damage/control & support, and have the disengage tools to survive indefinitely and hugely affect teamfights.

An engineer with a soldier’s amulet, and no condition removal is a hybrid. Part damage, and part fool. The only thing soldier’s amulet accomplishes is it serves as a direct counter to hotjoin hero thieves who will just spam 2 until they go down, without disengaging. By equipping a soldier’s amulet you’re basically saying:

“I’m cool with doing mediocre damage, and betting this fight will be over in 20 seconds. I sure hope I get some really nice control off, cause otherwise my team is carrying me. I definitely will prolong my life by 5 seconds if I do get outplayed and eat some full combos, though.”

Actually i have to agree with all of this, if you don’t kill, you get kill that’s how it is, engi doesnt have extraordinary escape abilities, so adding more toughness in exchange for damage, just mean you die slower, but you still die

and they said that were gonna tone down Mug/shatters, we didn’t bring it up. they did and then they don’t do it ? and at the same time they for the first time delete a build, and completely destroy a core trait from engineer, on the same patch.. that says a lot about Anet right now.. taking on that WoW mentality :S

I have yet to try the new version but as someone who ran double super elixir build I can say that it was very annoying to have no control over where the first one landed and since it shared CD with other KR effects I’d often find it on CD when I needed it most. The buff to SE to make up for this seems rather massive and if they can even make the new heal numbers even close to the old one then this is a nice solution imo. Let’s also look at the positive aspect. SE, even the double version, could easily be out damaged by a decent melee build. The new immobilize effect seems to give a nice little remedy to that.

Also, having a flameshield with the flamethrower is WAY better than the old effect, and this magnetic mine sounds interesting. Also remember that this frees engineers from the burden of having to spend 10 points only to maximixe the healing effect of SE. so if you’re fine with not having an extra glue then this means 10 points you can spend elsewhere.

All in all, I’m not sure why people complain.

Oxstar.7643:

I have yet to try the new version but as someone who ran double super elixir build I can say that it was very annoying to have no control over where the first one landed and since it shared CD with other KR effects I’d often find it on CD when I needed it most. The buff to SE to make up for this seems rather massive and if they can even make the new heal numbers even close to the old one then this is a nice solution imo. Let’s also look at the positive aspect. SE, even the double version, could easily be out damaged by a decent melee build. The new immobilize effect seems to give a nice little remedy to that.

Also, having a flameshield with the flamethrower is WAY better than the old effect, and this magnetic mine sounds interesting. Also remember that this frees engineers from the burden of having to spend 10 points only to maximixe the healing effect of SE. so if you’re fine with not having an extra glue then this means 10 points you can spend elsewhere.

All in all, I’m not sure why people complain.

You do know the old flamethrower effect also removed a condition, right?

Also, super elixir was not buffed this patch. That was a typo left over from a previous patch.

Actually the increase to SE, were just added notes from last patch, they did not actually change them.

Hidden bullet ( surprise shot ) damage on full berserk gear is hitting for 1k.. so it real doesn’t make a difference

magnet bomb lacks range, so unless the enemy is already inside other bombs range, it will not do anything!

Flame shield last for 4s, and in order to trigger you have to get hit! 4 might max per enemy hitting you and they all last 5s.. the old version was an AoE burn that removed 1 condition every 10 secs

once you get on the game and try them.. you will see how bad KR is now

Well in that case I guess my EG days are over. It’s a shame, but at least I still have my trusty medkit. The other changes seem positive though.

HB buff is a start.
Yes but it’s an additional pull which makes it a bit easier to set people up – Pull and concussion bomb, 5 extra confuses, I like.
Still better than having to be in someones face, isn’t it? And the duration can be extended with boon gear. I hope.

As for the loss in condition removal, guess we will actually have to specc our weapons around it now. For me that’s fine, I was tired of having to switch to medkit for might all the time.

the only possitive change is that throw elixir U is now a 100% chance projectile block/reflect.. that’s literally the best thing about this patch

google.3709:

@Chaith.8256:
sadly as this might be, EG/FT + surprise shot on berserker gear is the strongest straight DPS we have right now. it does a lot of hits, and big hits too but no where near 100nades.. no one is gonan be saying “WTF, how you kill so fast” but ye..
ps: FT 1 sucks! i only use for #2,5 and 5 ( for sPvP Stomp )

Hold up, Elixir Gun does not have a place in the ‘strongest straight dps’ build, haha. I would seriously contest flamethrower being in there, as well. All it offers for burst is flame blast. Strongest power damage? For SPVP? Right now, It’d be static discharge variants for sure. Want a completely suicidal YOLO build? I’d probably say:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fcAQFAUl0piYnpSyF17IyYGkmoB+Qe95Bb9gQIA;TkAg0CnoCyojQHbOugk5MEB

I should have said on PVE :P! if you drop acid bomb in a group of mobs, it does really good damage since they r dumb enough not to move, and the leap bak is enough for you to set off flame blast at perfect distance.

for sPvP, strongest burst would be Toolkit + surprice + FT #2

Chaith.8256:

You’re talking about something totally different than me. Survivability was a bad choice of words on my part, because I am speaking to the sustainability or effective health of engineers who choose to forego offensive options to achieve group support, or hybrid roles.

The Flamethrower takes up one slot, just as the Grenade Kit and Tool Kit do. If you think the EHP of a Grenadier is good, then an FT Engineer’s should be no different—if not better with the added Toughness. And more importantly, when specced correctly the Flamethrower is plenty offensive. Even with Deadly Mixture, Flame Jet’s damage is underwhelming. But with Incendiary Powder you can take full advantage of its high attack rate to consistently apply burning across multiple targets. Permanently. Meaning all the time.

Whether or not you think that’s really worth using is ultimately up to you, but I’m really getting frustrated reading these posts that act like the Flamethrower has no viability in any situation ever, or that it is patently “forgoing offensive options” by wielding it over the Grenade Kit.

Chaith.8256:

Sure man, you can put a soldier’s amulet on, for 3k toughness and 25k hp. Are you survivable? Definitely not. Your effective HP is 27k-ish, before your healing skill. What do you think a survivable staff guardian, or clerics amulet ele’s effective HP is?

It’s amusing, because on the Engineer folder everyone says that the Guardian and Elementalist have better bunker builds. If you go to the Guardian folder, everyone says the Engineer and Elementalist have better bunker builds. If you go to the Elementalist folder, everyone says the Engineer and Guardian have better bunker builds.

We all have our advantages. Guardians may be the tankiest of all the classes, but their mobility is utter crap. They have to wield a Scepter to be effective outside melee range, which kills a lot of their healing options.

Chaith.8256:

An engineer with a soldier’s amulet, and no condition removal is a hybrid.

I’m curious where you’re concluding that I have no condition removal. I use Cleansing Formula with the FT as I’ve already indicated in this thread, and will use either the EG + elixir or 2 elixirs given what the composition of the other team is. Either way, both of my other two utility slots are condition removals on far shorter cooldowns than a Guardian’s shouts are (especially the Toss skills).

Oxstar.7643:

I have yet to try the new version but as someone who ran double super elixir build I can say that it was very annoying to have no control over where the first one landed and since it shared CD with other KR effects I’d often find it on CD when I needed it most. The buff to SE to make up for this seems rather massive and if they can even make the new heal numbers even close to the old one then this is a nice solution imo. Let’s also look at the positive aspect. SE, even the double version, could easily be out damaged by a decent melee build. The new immobilize effect seems to give a nice little remedy to that.

Also, having a flameshield with the flamethrower is WAY better than the old effect, and this magnetic mine sounds interesting. Also remember that this frees engineers from the burden of having to spend 10 points only to maximixe the healing effect of SE. so if you’re fine with not having an extra glue then this means 10 points you can spend elsewhere.

All in all, I’m not sure why people complain.

You had control over where it landed by positioning yourself to where you need to be. I used rifle and EG. So whenever I wanted to double heal on someone else. I would Jump Shot over and then swap kit. You can’t really aim a passive ability, so having it drop at your feet made it simple. The instant casting condition removal and heal was powerful enough.

The bulk of my complaint is the fact that I utilize 3-4 kits. Changing KR is a build-defining change. If you’re wielding a single kit, you might enjoy the fact that you don’t have to trait into KR for the same effective heal that we have now. But you also have to take note that you’ve lost your most powerful Condition Removers. Swapping into EG or FT can remove fear; something that Super Elixir can’t normally do because it’s disabled during the duration of fear. Things like this were important to many of us who went with 3+ kits and utilized those abilities. The only way to remove a condition with kits now is Super Elixir and Drop Antidote. Depending on the last time KR triggered, swapping into kit for the purpose of Condition Removal may or may not trigger KR and send it on Global CD. This puts you in a very negative situation. Do I waste KR or do I put off sustaining myself for 2 seconds to trigger it now?

The abilities are interesting to use, and I’m sure there are many single or double kit builds that enjoy the new KR effects. But the combination of the loss of sustainability with generic reactionary utility AND a global cooldown which does nothing but hurt multi-kit users and make it harder to rely on the effects, hits a lot of people who relied on it.

@Google

Not saying I found a secret special attack, but I’m currently using an ability that, if full crit, can hit for around 10k damage. One ability. And I can use surprise shot + SD for more damage.

And it’s not grenade barrage.

Kardiamond.6952:

@Google

Not saying I found a secret special attack, but I’m currently using an ability that, if full crit, can hit for around 10k damage. One ability. And I can use surprise shot + SD for more damage.

And it’s not grenade barrage.

Flame blast
Jump shot or
Mine field.. i’m thinking mind field, am i right ?

I don’t think it’s possible for Flame Blast to hit for 10K in sPvP given how low the Critical Damage value is on the Zerker trinket.

Phineas Poe.3018:

I don’t think it’s possible for Flame Blast to hit for 10K in sPvP given how low the Critical Damage value is on the Zerker trinket.

actually there are 2 ways!

1. the enemy is directly running away from you, from as ball goes throught him multiple times
2. get on meele range, use flame blast and then overcharged shot, if fast enough it will hit him multiple times again

I think its was mine field tho, its hits 10k + but i hate it’s casting time and throw mine too! ugh soooo long and recharge is bugged it does remove 5 booms tho

BTW oh YESS!! im gettin close to a new build!! i got my first " Oh GOd WTF is that"!

Shhhh Google :P

Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Kardiamond.6952:

Shhhh Google :P

Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

was i right tho ?

Phineas Poe.3018:

Chaith.8256:

You’re talking about something totally different than me. Survivability was a bad choice of words on my part, because I am speaking to the sustainability or effective health of engineers who choose to forego offensive options to achieve group support, or hybrid roles.

The Flamethrower takes up one slot, just as the Grenade Kit and Tool Kit do. If you think the EHP of a Grenadier is good, then an FT Engineer’s should be no different—if not better with the added Toughness.

Grenade kit is not taken by Engineers wishing to take a support/bunker role, to sustain themselves and their allies, like I just said. Elixir Gun & pre-nerf FT is what I’m talking about – support related utilities. I feel that at least EG should be able to fulfil/justify a support role if you invest enough. It can’t, and that is a problem. I would challenge you to make a cleric/shaman based build justified with how much damage this engineer could be doing.

Phineas Poe.3018:

But with Incendiary Powder you can take full advantage of its high attack rate to consistently apply burning across multiple targets. Permanently. Meaning all the time.

It’s a good thing you explained what permanently across multiple targets means, because my incendiary powder trait has a 3 second global cooldown, meaning that it only procs one time every 3 seconds. What’s cool about global cooldowns is they are internal, not external ‘per target’. It seems to me, if anything, that you see the FT through rose-colored lenses.

Phineas Poe.3018:

I’m really getting frustrated reading these posts that act like the Flamethrower has no viability in any situation ever, or that it is patently “forgoing offensive options” by wielding it over the Grenade Kit.

Whelp. 30 points into explosions to trait grenades yields a lot more single-target and multi-target damage in PvP then traiting 30 points into firearms to trait a flamethrower. Juggernaut trait requires you to sit in FT channeling flame jets to get full benefit, that’s something I will never do. A Flame Jet takes 2.5 seconds to channel. A grenade kit can drop 15 grenades in 2.5 seconds. You can dispute it if you like, but 3 shrapnel grenades, 3 flash grenades, 3 freeze grenades, and 3 poison grenades is going to put more numbers down then a flame jet & flame blast combo with extra burning. Not to mention bigger condition pressure that the FT lacks – poison, chill, & actual bleeds. Single target, nades are getting the incendiary ammo love, too.

Flamethrowers are optimal when your comp can blast your fire field a lot. Flamethrowers are optimal for FT5’n stomps if your elixir S toss is down.
Flamethrowers are optimal when you’re trying to interrupt a res/stomp/heal <—- this is the big one.

Don’t agree if you don’t want to, but the FT is based around utility, not unloading damage. FT is not optimal when your goal is to make them dead before you are made dead. It’s optimal for control and utility.

I am getting rather off-topic, though, so I’ll stop there.

Chaith.8256:

Elixir Gun & pre-nerf FT is what I’m talking about – support related utilities. I feel that at least EG should be able to fulfil/justify a support role if you invest enough. It can’t, and that is a problem.

“Pre-nerf FT?”

I think we should make one thing clear: Flame Burst being patched is a bugfix and not a “nerf.” As for the Flamethrower and the Elixir Gun I think you’re being disingenuous by lumping the two together. If you want to discuss the merits of them both, fine; but I am speaking strictly of the Flamethrower in comparison to the Grenade Kit, Tool Kit, and Bomb Kit.

Chaith.8256:

It’s a good thing you explained what permanently across multiple targets means, because my incendiary powder trait has a 3 second global cooldown, meaning that it only procs one time every 3 seconds. What’s cool about global cooldowns is they are internal, not external ‘per target’. It seems to me, if anything, that you see the FT through rose-colored lenses.

In my experience, that is not how it works. If I hit three Golems with my Flame Jet, more than one of them will have sustained burning on themselves and this translates similarly in WvW, PvE, and sPvP.

As for that 3-second cooldown, it doesn’t matter. You get 10% Burning Duration from 10 points in Explosives. Napalm Specialist gives another 20%. Never mind stacking any reasonable amount of Condition Damage from your runes.

Keep in mind that there is more than one way to build the Flamethrower. You can go bunker with it with a Soldier trinket, but I’ve seen it work effectively with a P/P Condi build. Like the Tool Kit, it has the luxury of benefiting from both Power and Condition Damage stacking. And swapping to the Pistol to quickly fire off Poison Dart Volley and Static Shot is not a huge loss in Might.

I don’t have rose-tinted glasses. I’ve just experimented with it more than you have. It’s pretty clear you’re just biased against it because a lot of your criticism about it could be just as pointedly used against the Grenade Kit. And I get that. You don’t like it. That’s fine.

But there’s no reason for belligerence.

Chaith.8256:

You can dispute it if you like, but 3 shrapnel grenades, 3 flash grenades, 3 freeze grenades, and 3 poison grenades is going to put more numbers down then a flame jet & flame blast combo with extra burning.

But that’s the thing: I’m not disputing it. I accept that the Grenade Kit does more damage. That doesn’t mean that it’s better than the Flamethrower in every situation—a few of which you’ve already mentioned.

@Phineas Poe

Incendirary powder got a 3 sec internet cooldown. Meaning that it will only affect one of your target. The others are burning from your auto attack from FT.

Chaith was only saying that IP isn’t the reason why you burn the others. IP is a single target on crit ability.

Kardiamond.6952:

The others are burning from your auto attack from FT.

That’s impossible. The auto-attack burn only lasts for 1 second. I will see multiple ticks from two different targets, even proccing at the same time, mid Flame Jet.

It’s funny how people always claim that elementalists are better than engineers in every way.
I beg to disagree, given the past experiences I’ve had. But I don’t know what the world is like now since the patch.

Phineas Poe.3018:

But with Incendiary Powder you can take full advantage of its high attack rate to consistently apply burning across multiple targets. Permanently. Meaning all the time.

Chaith.8256:

Incendiary Powdertrait has a 3 second global cooldown .._.. It seems to me, if anything, that you see the FT through rose-colored lenses.

Phineas Poe.3018:

I don’t have rose-tinted glasses. I’ve just experimented with it more than you have

3 second global cooldown

Phineas Poe.3018:

In my experience, that is not how it works.

I think if anyone else wants to chime in here.. you will see that that is in fact how Incendiary Powder works. With proper duration you can keep perma burning, on one target. Very strong, but a far cry from how you describe it’s effects on your flamethrower damage. Any other burning is from channeling your flame jet for the full 2.5s.

Phineas Poe.3018:

But there’s no reason for belligerence.

Your jimmies are unjustly rustled.