Guild Wars 2

It is a minor specialization in the explosives line and gets annoying when your dungeon group stacks up enemies and you heal blast water field only to push back the stack……
It is almost as bad as a noob ranger using LB #4.

We need the option to be able to turn stuff like that off without having to sacrifice other benefits from the explosives specialization line.

Chewablesleeptablet.3185:

It is a minor specialization in the explosives line and gets annoying when your dungeon group stacks up enemies and you heal blast water field only to push back the stack……
It is almost as bad as a noob ranger using LB #4.

We need the option to be able to turn stuff like that off without having to sacrifice other benefits from the explosives specialization line.

I created a thread on the subject shortly following the patch and was met with stone-cold silence. Personally, I felt it was lazy and thoughtless to slap it together with a trait we have no option to pick or choose whether we actually need for the scenario ahead. This could/should be placed with one of the adjacent traits to correct the issue, which I believe Shrapnel would be the most appropriate as turret death happens to trigger it’s effects anyways. It was negligent to force this upon Engineer because it causes you to question the necessity of an entire trait line.

This trait is simply not 100% beneficial. That statement alone should attract anet’s attention and make a change.

well.. learn to deal with it i guess ._.
its actually quite nice since you will be replacing the thief most of the time, ppl tend to expect some defiance management from you^^’
you also still have the option to blast with ft and pick the turret up

As stated above its not so bad once you get used to it and can actually be nice when used corectly.

Since you’re talking about PvE, dungeons specifically, I’d assume you’re using Mortar Kit as Elite with perhaps Siege Rounds (neither Elixir X nor Supply Crate are that usable for PvE I reckon). If the knockback on turret explosion hinders you so much, you could always Orbital Strike onto the turret water field and pick the turret up for virtually the same effect.

Of course, that means you’ll take more time to heal up, but if your team is properly stacking chances are you won’t be in immediate danger when you heal up – and if it’s a life/death scenario, the knockback can work in your favor if you leave the stack and blast the enemies towards the wall/corner. I do believe deploy—>overcharge—>pickup for reduced CD gives out more effective HPS than deploy—>overcharge—>detonate too, but not quite sure on that one.

Also, please note I’m not against the change just for the sake of being against. It’s just I find the knockback very useful in PvP for some breathing room against classes that don’t respect my personal space C=

Horus.9685:

you also still have the option to blast with ft and pick the turret up

Sure this is always an option, but that also has repercussions. Not everyone is blessed with impeccable ping rates, which could directly result in natural turret death in constructed group scenarios (i.e. dungeons). That aside it also forces one to re-evaluate the use of an effective combo blast from healing turret. Push on death mechanic directly conflicts with both intended and consequential turret death for such content. The problem is not due to the mechanic, but rather that it is forced upon you when you take the Explosives line.

IgnisVulpesXI.3015:

Also, please note I’m not against the change just for the sake of being against. It’s just I find the knockback very useful in PvP for some breathing room against classes that don’t respect my personal space C=

Keep in mind that no one is asking for it to be removed either. It just seems sensible that not everyone is going to find this to be an advantageous mechanic across the board when it should have been left as an optional trait like before.

It’s a minor knockback, not a launch. Hardly worth your frustration.

P.s. If they do PvE right in HoT, it’ll be something you’ll be glad to have.

Dahkeus.8243:

It’s a minor knockback, not a launch. Hardly worth your frustration.

KB = 1 stack removed
Launch = 1 stack removed
The entire point of the discussion is that either intended or not you remove a defiant stack that could be a defining factor in party survival or positioning.

Dahkeus.8243:

P.s. If they do PvE right in HoT, it’ll be something you’ll be glad to have.

I can’t stress this enough, as I have voiced this opinion during the CDI phase. Looking at this from a point of view where we are completely left in the dark on content that is yet to come does not solve or alleviate the concerns of the present.

I completely agree with everyone on the fact that it is not a game breaking issue. Can we operate effectively by tip-toeing around a mechanic that is blatantly forced upon a trait line? Of course. However, it does not change that it does cause frustrations by restricting a huge supportive keystone in the majority of Engineer PvE builds (Healing Turret). At least in my eyes, this is an instance of oversight during the trait remodel.

This is a great opportunity to transform some under performing traits by merging this effect with either Shrapnel or Thermo (assuming icd is removed as well) and everyone gets to walk away unimpeded. Hell, it makes even more sense that we swap Shrapnel or Thermo with Turret Knockback altogether. I think everyone could agree that incorporating the current Thermo as baseline is far more effective than causing the only turret currently in use (or possibly ever will be) to cause a “minor knockback”.

Yeah, It is kind of backwards if you ask me.

They built in traits that you may not want, and completely too out some of what I thought were well liked traits like the bomb cooldown/range trait. They could have metrics that show they are not as popular as I believe, but it feels a bit backwards to me.

Makes me feel like this :

Mnemesis.8257:

Horus.9685:

you also still have the option to blast with ft and pick the turret up

Sure this is always an option, but that also has repercussions. Not everyone is blessed with impeccable ping rates, which could directly result in natural turret death in constructed group scenarios (i.e. dungeons). That aside it also forces one to re-evaluate the use of an effective combo blast from healing turret. Push on death mechanic directly conflicts with both intended and consequential turret death for such content. The problem is not due to the mechanic, but rather that it is forced upon you when you take the Explosives line.

IgnisVulpesXI.3015:

Also, please note I’m not against the change just for the sake of being against. It’s just I find the knockback very useful in PvP for some breathing room against classes that don’t respect my personal space C=

Keep in mind that no one is asking for it to be removed either. It just seems sensible that not everyone is going to find this to be an advantageous mechanic across the board when it should have been left as an optional trait like before.

Then it should be said bluntly. It you are willing to be this optimized then you might as well bring another meta class. Not to be rude but if all replies start with “But this” or “but that” then you have an issue of simply being argumentative

. Here you have some advice on how to bypass the issue and you undermine and ignore it. So why not make it about the base issue? If you do not like it do not use it. If it undermines your meta build that much use another class. Defiance stacks are large after the first counter and tend to need peeling if one knock back ruins your stacking or you are not willing to summon the turret a bit farther away (as the field is quite large) then you might as well play another class for all this difficult content until it is changed.

For innovative and PvP engineers this is actually a decent trait. And that actually has to be noted. In PvP and WvW where cc and rupts tend to matter more this is a nice bonus for many builds. In PvE while there are less uses there are many effective alternatives to get the blast finisher so it really is not an issue given our decent access through FT and EG.

One last note. Given queuing issues if your ping is bad then your turret should not work properly anyway.

Well yeah … at first i hated it aswell and was thinking how to manage that … well like some ppls said you got ft a decent dealing damage blast finisher with 6 sec … so im using this instead destroying the turret and pick it up .Trust me you will be thankfull for that one day.

I mean now i do some nice aoe dmg + healing myself and teammates if we stack + less cd.Well that’s great and if they go too close to me i can push them away still a bit .I mean the kb isn’t that strong like lb4 or ruining something and sometimes you make some spaces for your teammates so they can recover if they got hit badly and you don’t need to pick up a trait for that knockback .So yeah great for me so far

Look, we’ll soon (maybe even before HoT) see all current mobs with defiance get the new breakbar so this will not be a problem on bosses (it will only be a boon in fact). So for thrash mobs just pick the healing turret up manualy (gives more health in total anyway) or place it down so the knockback knocks them into a wall or is out of range (the radius is tiny).

Just wanted to put it out there that picking up your turret is better healing over time, so you shouldn’t blast it anyway.

TheGuy.3568:

Then it should be said bluntly. It you are willing to be this optimized then you might as well bring another meta class. Not to be rude but if all replies start with “But this” or “but that” then you have an issue of simply being argumentative.

Argumentative is not the edge I was going for, rather that dismissing something by being black and white about an issue provided nothing constructive on the topic, which happens to be an annoyance to some people. Don’t Like Don’t Use is hardly a solution.

TheGuy.3568:

. Here you have some advice on how to bypass the issue and you undermine and ignore it.

I disagree. I acknowledged that certain pieces of advice are obviously credible options. Does that mean that we can not continue to discuss about an issue just because we have hoops to jump through that require not triggering said effect through intended means.

TheGuy.3568:

So why not make it about the base issue? If you do not like it do not use it. If it undermines your meta build that much use another class.

Very constructive. Appreciate it.

TheGuy.3568:

Defiance stacks are large after the first counter and tend to need peeling if one knock back ruins your stacking or you are not willing to summon the turret a bit farther away (as the field is quite large) then you might as well play another class for all this difficult content until it is changed.

I will actually quote myself here:

I completely agree with everyone on the fact that it is not a game breaking issue. Can we operate effectively by tip-toeing around a mechanic that is blatantly forced upon a trait line? Of course. However, it does not change that it does cause frustrations by restricting a huge supportive keystone in the majority of Engineer PvE builds (Healing Turret). At least in my eyes, this is an instance of oversight during the trait remodel.

TheGuy.3568:

For innovative and PvP engineers this is actually a decent trait. And that actually has to be noted. In PvP and WvW where cc and rupts tend to matter more this is a nice bonus for many builds. In PvE while there are less uses there are many effective alternatives to get the blast finisher so it really is not an issue given our decent access through FT and EG.

I think it is worth noting that at no point have I advocated for the outright removal of turret knockback. Yes, it does have its uses and I would not want to see that taken away. Do I think it can perform this same function, but as an optional effect just as it did previously? Absolutely. That is precisely because it has niche uses and is not something that is appropriate for a baseline trait.

Are.1326:

Look, we’ll soon (maybe even before HoT) see all current mobs with defiance get the new breakbar so this will not be a problem on bosses (it will only be a boon in fact). So for thrash mobs just pick the healing turret up manualy (gives more health in total anyway) or place it down so the knockback knocks them into a wall or is out of range (the radius is tiny).

Assuming the breakbar functions appropriately this will likely become less of an issue (for bosses). I still foresee/experience situations where every Tom kitten and Harry is not going to either know or care to restrain knockbacks appropriately. This is a concern that happens across game modes. In your mind, do you feel that swapping the knockback effect with something like Shrapnel or Thermo would prove more beneficial overall?

The issue here is that involuntary knockbacks are pretty much just a problem in PvE, not across game modes. In WvW it might be a problem if you’re duo-roaming flipping camps or something, but the knockback is beneficial in pretty much all PvP scenarios, excluding the odd situation in which you push the enemy out of range of an ally’s attack or something.

Either way, let’s say ANet decides to pack say, Thermobaric Detonation with Explosive Powder and moves knockback turrets further in the tree. What sort of GM could even compete with Siege Rounds or Shrapnel that includes a turret-related trait useful for explosives? It has to be pretty good, because as useful as a 20-second AoE knockback is, I don’t think noone would pick a GM trait. Knockback + turret effectiveness? Damage? Pack it all with Armored Turrets? That could be interesting, even if it spreads the Turret traits all around.

Don’t see a problem, pick it up for reduced cooldown if you don’t want the blast.

I can see the annoyance but there is a workaround, sure might not be optimal but choices, choices, choices.

Mnemesis.8257:

Assuming the breakbar functions appropriately this will likely become less of an issue (for bosses). I still foresee/experience situations where every Tom kitten and Harry is not going to either know or care to restrain knockbacks appropriately. This is a concern that happens across game modes. In your mind, do you feel that swapping the knockback effect with something like Shrapnel or Thermo would prove more beneficial overall?

Well we have to consider what builds would want the knockback effect. As it stands, the whole Explosive line is a mess. There are to many traits that only affect one kit, or balanced around one (like shrapnel for grenades). So if you want to run a build with turrets, but don’t have mortar (because why would you take it over supply crate in a turret build), and you don’t have nades (because you want turrets…), then you don’t have many options.

My solution would be as follows:

• Traits that affects only 1 Utility skill should be opened up to all explosions.
• Traits that are to similar (glass canon and shaped charge) must change.
• Traits that add 50% or more power to an ability should just be made baseline (like siege rounds double tap or 50% extra field duration).
• Add trait line themes (like beserker and reaper) for Explotions and Crowd Control.
• The three CC traits would be one that makes CC, one that increase CC duration and one that benefit the engineer based on a good use of CC.

By adding Crowd Control as a part of Explosives, we can put the turret knockback into one of the CC traits. It is strange that we don’t have any CC traits besides this one minor considering how important CC is to engineer.

Considering just how many blast finishers that engis have that DON’T knock back, it really seems petty to get worked up over this.

I mean, I think a lot of people are really seeing this molehill as a mountain…

Are.1326:

My solution would be as follows:
*Snip

• Traits that are to similar (glass canon and shaped charge) must change.

By adding Crowd Control as a part of Explosives, we can put the turret knockback into one of the CC traits. It is strange that we don’t have any CC traits besides this one minor considering how important CC is to engineer.

First off. Thank you VERY much for entertaining the idea and offering considerations that would improve the Explosives line. I love the ideas, which I have isolated, that you pitched regarding this particular scenario. I rather like the idea of combining Glass Cannon and Shaped Charge to open a slot (once again) for turret knockback. Like you suggested this would provide a trait specifically for CC, which could be improved upon in some form or other, while creating a much more appealing +% damage modifier; 10% ^90% or 5% v 90%. I wholeheartedly +1 you for those two suggestions alone.

Dahkeus.8243:

Considering just how many blast finishers that engis have that DON’T knock back, it really seems petty to get worked up over this.

I mean, I think a lot of people are really seeing this molehill as a mountain…

At least for me, it’s about trying to collaboratively develop a more sensible solution to a minor problem that should not even exist. My own perspective on the situation is that turrets already have extremely limited uses currently and have no need for further discriminatory passives to tick off the masses. Is it that offensive to consider having an option for turret knockback or similar issues across classes to remove all molehills? The core of the issue is greater than itself in this case.

On PVP i can not agree with you.
For sure in PVE it could be annoying to push back enemies.
But to make the push back baseline is truely a gift for all PVP players, there is no “wasted” trait slot

mov.1246:

On PVP i can not agree with you.
For sure in PVE it could be annoying to push back enemies.
But to make the push back baseline is truely a gift for all PVP players, there is no “wasted” trait slot

Some very good suggestions for increasing the Explosives line appeal and synergy were theory crafted above. Would you happen to have any suggestions that might improve upon such concepts or even ideas of your own that would make this a non-issue and concurrently cause the Explosives line to be more dynamic.

Remove the knockback only in pve. (Actually I think a great deal should be…)

God forbid PvP and PvE be differently played.

ArchonWing.9480:

God forbid PvP and PvE be differently played.

Public enemy #1. I understand why they want to keep things as similar as possible, but the more they change/add content this becomes exceedingly difficult to achieve. It was a pain in the hole to deal with this in GW, but everyone made it work regardless.

Just going to repeat that you shouldn’t be blowing up your turret in PvE anyway.

Overcharge → picking it up is better sustained healing than blasting it. Honestly you should try and pick it up in PvP too, but sometimes the knockback is more important for interrupting stomps, or you just can’t get to it.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Just going to repeat that you shouldn’t be blowing up your turret in PvE anyway.

Overcharge -> picking it up is better sustained healing than blasting it. Honestly you should try and pick it up in PvP too, but sometimes the knockback is more important for interrupting stomps, or you just can’t get to it.

Rarely need sustained healing in PVE, it’s a burst after a mistake and hopefully not at all, then in that case I’m using the detonate for a blast finisher in a fire field or something.

That said, I don’t have a problem with the change at all, I enjoy it actually, i have to actually consider the repercussions of my actions.