Guild Wars 2

aydenunited.5729:

Ostricheggs.3742:

timidobserver.7925:

I disagree with HGH being difficult. Well it can be difficult in PVE, but in any form of PVP you should do fine.

Wait, what? Can you explain this to me?

Two dodges, one stun break, lots of damage. HGH in a nutshell.

Every fight is a complex set of reactions. It’s a SOLELY reactionary class. You don’t determine the course of a fight, the other player(s) do. To imply that it’s easier in PvP is kinda insane.

You have, easily, the worst “great player” to “terrible and unhelpful forum poster” ratio I’ve ever seen.

I’m just confused at what he said. Not sure why he would say that it’s a difficult build in PvE where you’re throwing grenades at predictable/stationary targets with very little initiative to actually kill you outside of specific abilities. The stress involved in PvP makes throwing nades 3x harder.

Not sure how that’s terrible or unhelpful. I’m just sayin that it seems kinda odd unless I missed something.

JohnDied.3476:

Zenguy.6421:

waka.9826:

I talked to Hammon in game who is a dev and he said HGH is getting nerfed. Gadgets are not being worked on at the moment and basically nothing else lol.

If it does get nerfed there’d be no one else to blame but the engineer community. I’ve been asking guildies throughout this month (in a guild of about ~150) and no one thinks engineers are overpowered. Most (nearly all) haven’t even heard of HgH. There’s actually only three engineers in our guild (myself included) and we all just run whatever we feel like playing around with. No cookie cutter builds.

I literally saw 5 HGH engis in a tourney today. It’s the new FOTM. There’s almost always at least one aside from me in there.

I admit that… Well, with the few HGH prownesses, Engi finally became “cool” and the only thing they have in their kitten mouth is HGH. That gameplay is amongst the most BORING and UNINTERESTING ones ever, except for the fact of being like “Hey, I’m an engineer I’m sure you never saw that class before, I’ll explain to you, so you take HGH and…”

People want to be rewarded with kit switching and gadgets, or at least stand a chance. All of that got slaughtered when looking to remove 100nades.

Might stacking gives power and CD. Whereas GS warrior with stacks of might is wasting the CD bonus, nearly every engineer kit is mixed power/cd, which means might is doing double duty on most engineer weapons. The very reason why it’s hard to make a decent build for engineer (hard itemization because of mixed damage on weapons) is the very reason why might stacking works so well on engineer. Elixirs also have the best stunbreakers. But elixir builds are boring, often lack a weapon swap and most people didn’t sign up to be engineer to drink potions on recharge. I don’t like elixirs.

MrForz.1953:

I admit that… Well, with the few HGH prownesses, Engi finally became “cool” and the only thing they have in their kitten mouth is HGH. That gameplay is amongst the most BORING and UNINTERESTING ones ever, except for the fact of being like “Hey, I’m an engineer I’m sure you never saw that class before, I’ll explain to you, so you take HGH and…”

People want to be rewarded with kit switching and gadgets, or at least stand a chance. All of that got slaughtered when looking to remove 100nades.

HGH is not as boring or as easy as the other FOTM builds, in fact it requires a lot of skill to play effectively against all the other FOTM builds that could easily one-shot you.
By itself, it’s easy to play but when you look at what you’re fighting against, it becomes a little more than just tossing grenades.

But if you do want a might stacking build that doesn’t involve chugging and throwing, you can always take a look at this one; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmW__JFzDOQ . It uses Combo field might stacking alongside some other gear and skills to get up to 20-25 stacks in the middle of the fight.

JohnDied.3476:

Zenguy.6421:

waka.9826:

I talked to Hammon in game who is a dev and he said HGH is getting nerfed. Gadgets are not being worked on at the moment and basically nothing else lol.

If it does get nerfed there’d be no one else to blame but the engineer community. I’ve been asking guildies throughout this month (in a guild of about ~150) and no one thinks engineers are overpowered. Most (nearly all) haven’t even heard of HgH. There’s actually only three engineers in our guild (myself included) and we all just run whatever we feel like playing around with. No cookie cutter builds.

^

JohnDied.3476:

Zenguy.6421:

waka.9826:

I talked to Hammon in game who is a dev and he said HGH is getting nerfed. Gadgets are not being worked on at the moment and basically nothing else lol.

If it does get nerfed there’d be no one else to blame but the engineer community. I’ve been asking guildies throughout this month (in a guild of about ~150) and no one thinks engineers are overpowered. Most (nearly all) haven’t even heard of HgH. There’s actually only three engineers in our guild (myself included) and we all just run whatever we feel like playing around with. No cookie cutter builds.

Nah, other professions are raising a huge storm over this build too. Just look over at the SPVP forums where you’ll get glimpses of where balance is heading.

AsmallChicken.9634:

JohnDied.3476:

Zenguy.6421:

waka.9826:

I talked to Hammon in game who is a dev and he said HGH is getting nerfed. Gadgets are not being worked on at the moment and basically nothing else lol.

If it does get nerfed there’d be no one else to blame but the engineer community. I’ve been asking guildies throughout this month (in a guild of about ~150) and no one thinks engineers are overpowered. Most (nearly all) haven’t even heard of HgH. There’s actually only three engineers in our guild (myself included) and we all just run whatever we feel like playing around with. No cookie cutter builds.

Nah, other professions are raising a huge storm over this build too. Just look over at the SPVP forums where you’ll get glimpses of where balance is heading.

This game shouldn’t be balanced solely on PvP. Sadly it will, just because they haven’t bothered to separate it by now (other than for confusion).

Also, I’ve been to those forums. Half the people on those threads are still engineers (I look at and remember names from here), and the other half seem like they can’t be bothered to learn a class that up until now no one saw as a threat. When it comes to other classes chipping in, there’s just as many giving advice on how to beat engis as there are whining about them.

Dirame.8521:

snip

Ok so look. I really couldn’t care less about the amount of skill needed to use HGH*409 based builds, if I don’t like it and absolutely hate the fact that it got douchified to the highest level, that’s my choice. I’m also fine about all the skill, trait, and build mixes I have, even against what you call ‘other FOTM’s’.

It is in everyone to look to perform as much as possible, but between various gadget and kit playstyles and the boring “I drink all the elixirs I can drink except for the ones that can have a situational use to me” even if it can potentially handle 3 or 4 people at once, I’ve made my choice. Anet devs made their choice too, unfortunately.

question:

how has HGH magically been douchified and FOTM all of a suddens when it is the one build that has worked as is since release?

answer:

it hasn’t.

~20 stacks of might + burning is whats a problem. Necros can get instant 10 stacks of might + 3 battle and have 13 stacks before they lay their conditions. Or add a couple Life Blasts for 15 stacks. But nobody says anything about that. It’s because Necro doesn’t have burning. Engis get every condition and 20 stacks of might + 25 corruption chages = annihilation.

not true nakoda.4213. They buffed HGH during the Dec 14th patch.

• HGH: Drinking an elixir now grants two stacks of might instead of one.

so a 5 month old patch that changed none of the builds actual functionality suddenly made it a douchified FOTM?

I think not.

nakoda.4213:

question:

how has HGH magically been douchified and FOTM all of a suddens when it is the one build that has worked as is since release?

answer:

I’ll give the correct answer.

It has worked as is since release yes, but people could still make viable kit refinement builds with gadgets on it for many purposes, bursts, bunker, hybrid, CC spammers, trolling, THAT, is what most of the Engi players signed up for, goofy, borderline epic weaponry with a twist of their own style. After all these builds got slaughtered in one wonky change that aimed to just remove one build. Only thing left is HGH and 409. People scatter to it as last resort, perform well with it, yes it is strong, yes you’re tanky, you deal alot of power and condition damage, you can handle alot of stuff on your own and we slowly get in a situation very similar to Elementalists.

When people think of performing Eles, they’ll think of D/D and Cantrips, people thinking of performing Engineers will think of HGH*409 P/P, it became cool, everyone got interested to it and would literally kitten over the rest. That’s what I call douchified.

I hang out with a turret+multi-kit version of a P/P build and people look at me like if I had a kitten growing on my forehead no matter how well one can do with that. And I know that if I switched to HGH*409, something that I absolutely hate, I’d have outlasted these 3 people engaing me far much better.

Yes, I am upset, I am disgruntled. As buggy and poorly designed as the Engineer was, it was a right path, it is getting blown up in the skies and all we can do is sit and watch as the devs THEMSELVES don’t even know WHAT to do with us.

I’m really not looking to be offensive, but everything is getting wrong, overwhelmingly wrong.

Chicken little, this is the boy…. THE WOLVES ARE COMING!!!!!!!!! Get your umbrella!

(( mixed metaphor ftw. ))

Would it be possible to know what you’re meaning with that anyways?

nakoda.4213:

question:

how has HGH magically been douchified and FOTM all of a suddens when it is the one build that has worked as is since release?

answer:

it hasn’t.

Let me clarify, that part of your statement is incorrect. HGH hasn’t work as is since release it got buffed on Dec 14th patch. Also I wouldn’t scuff at a potential 4 extra might stacks which gets even better depending on your boon duration.

Functionality remains unchanged, whereas other builds have undergone sunstantial mechanics alterations.

my point stands,

HGH is not an FOTM. it has never been “douchified.” it remains the same build it has since launch.

ps, in the grand scheme of things, the dec 14 buff was not wholly creditable as the cause of this FOTM kitten, or HGH would have been mewled over then as well

I really don’t get what most of you are saying and you must be playing in a very different game world than me.

I have seen a good increase in Engineers over the last month or so in all areas PvE, PvP and WvW but the vast majority are not HGH Engineers and they never have been. HGH is thought to be boring and the reason is there is no gimmick to it, no fancy burst or kewl combo. Its just straight dmg, conditions and boons, very easy to learn and the better player you are will separate how well you do with it.
(I personally love it)
Anet stated in the past in a cute little rundown of all the professions that
(paraphrase) “blah blah blah…yak yak yak…Engineers are very versatile”
And the forums went ablaze with all the “versatile how” “where is the versatility” “I thought Ele’s were the Kings of versatility”
And that is what everyone tried to compare us to, Elementists.
We have a Trait that was always there, is not exclusive to a single kit, can be built around in many different ways and can give us the option to do very well in both offense and defense. Sounds very similar to the above mentioned professions favorite build.

So now everyone has finally come around and figured out what Anet meant about how the Engineer can be similarily as versatile as Elementists and now everyone believes they will nerf us for it?

If HGH does get nerfed directly I think the devs will have a hard time explaining it.
Not that they would anyways, but still.

nakoda.4213:

Functionality remains unchanged, whereas other builds have undergone sunstantial mechanics alterations.

There’s a short word for that: Destroyed.

And besides, it’s the same phenomenon, similar to Elementalists.

CriSPeH.8512:

So now everyone has finally come around and figured out what Anet meant about how the Engineer can be similarily as versatile as Elementists and now everyone believes they will nerf us for it?

First, Elementalists and versatility… Well they have it almost worse than us. Second, YES, yes, yes. Kit refinement was a core to versatile builds: “Don’t worry, I got dis! Grab this, and that, strap some stuff on it and THERE IT IS! I found a homemade way to burst for quite alot of damage!” Same can be applied to what used to compete before the massive slaughter. That was versatility. If you say that Might stacking IS Versatility then you can just make a Warrior and go to hell with it, you shouldn’t be losing time with a watered down version of that.

^
First, That is what ANET, the designers of the game stated, you can argue with them if your definition is different.
Second.
Yes Might stacking is Versatility.
Because we can gain might stacking through secondary means which raises our attack we are free to use different kits to fit our playstyle while still keeping a respectable level of survivability.

Its not just HGH+Nades and spam like GS Warrior.
I use TK in WvW, Bombs in PvP and FT in PvE all under the same build and the same gear. Might Stacking allows me to do this without having to dump/respec all my points in Explosives or Firearms.
Each one is a perfectly viable playstyle and not any of them make me feel like I am overpowered or invincible.
As long as I concentrate on my own gameplay and read my enemies to change accordingly I can do very well.
That is what I consider versatility.

Everyone always seems to want to draw lines in the sand all the time and sound like a bunch of politicians.
KR is REAL versatility!
HGH is Warrior!
Blah blah blah
and what did the 100nade users get compared to?
With the cute little 2 punch rotation?
Half the old KR effects didnt even work and the ones that did were so powerful the y overshadowed that actually kit itself.
So imo KR wasn’t at all what the profession was supposed to be and although it is ruined with the GCD I think the new KR effects are much better.

nakoda.4213:

Functionality remains unchanged, whereas other builds have undergone sunstantial mechanics alterations.

my point stands,

HGH is not an FOTM. it has never been “douchified.” it remains the same build it has since launch.

ps, in the grand scheme of things, the dec 14 buff was not wholly creditable as the cause of this FOTM kitten, or HGH would have been mewled over then as well

The fix to sigils was just as important to HGH nades becoming viable in tournaments as the Dec. 14th buff. But yes, some form of pistols and elixirs using HGH has been popular in WvW since launch.

Between about mid-September and mid-March, the number of engineers running a build like that in higher-tier tournaments was probably somewhere around 3. So yes, it has become a FOTM of sorts, if for no other reason than it is hundreds of times more popular now than it was before.

What you are witnessing is population increase and interest in something more involved than playing the current “meta” as people like to call it (I just call it “the game”).

Crispeh, as usual, is easier to understand than I am, I suppose

;)

I expect a spvp nerf and not pve/wvw.

CriSPeH.8512:

^
First, That is what ANET, the designers of the game stated, you can argue with them if your definition is different.
Second.
Yes Might stacking is Versatility.
Because we can gain might stacking through secondary means which raises our attack we are free to use different kits to fit our playstyle while still keeping a respectable level of survivability.

Its not just HGH+Nades and spam like GS Warrior.
I use TK in WvW, Bombs in PvP and FT in PvE all under the same build and the same gear. Might Stacking allows me to do this without having to dump/respec all my points in Explosives or Firearms.
Each one is a perfectly viable playstyle and not any of them make me feel like I am overpowered or invincible.
As long as I concentrate on my own gameplay and read my enemies to change accordingly I can do very well.
That is what I consider versatility.

Everyone always seems to want to draw lines in the sand all the time and sound like a bunch of politicians.
KR is REAL versatility!
HGH is Warrior!
Blah blah blah
and what did the 100nade users get compared to?
With the cute little 2 punch rotation?
Half the old KR effects didnt even work and the ones that did were so powerful the y overshadowed that actually kit itself.
So imo KR wasn’t at all what the profession was supposed to be and although it is ruined with the GCD I think the new KR effects are much better.

Face it, the last patch forced the Engineer players into HGH in order to remain efficient, the new KR is a joke and is nearly impossible to manage when having more than one kit, plus it’s not worth the pathetic, unhelpful and unwelcome effects it has. It is anything but a step foward.

Of course we drew lines. Not alot of people actually looked to play the Engi just to drink and shoot without anything else in between. Anet designs Engies (and over-nerf them) in order to remain versatile, but wait… I can’t be versatile if I decide to not spend 30 points in alchemy? What the…

MrForz.1953:

Face it, the last patch forced the Engineer players into HGH in order to remain efficient, the new KR is a joke and is nearly impossible to manage when having more than one kit, plus it’s not worth the pathetic, unhelpful and unwelcome effects it has. It is anything but a step foward.

Of course we drew lines. Not alot of people actually looked to play the Engi just to drink and shoot without anything else in between. Anet designs Engies (and over-nerf them) in order to remain versatile, but wait… I can’t be versatile if I decide to not spend 30 points in alchemy? What the…

10 points in alchemy. no hgh. no 409. several kits. destroys stuff.

We’re having one of those tangential conversations, again. That is, some people are talking about Engineers and balance in a certain context, while other people are talking about Engineers and balance and a different context. Neither group—for the most part—is openly identifying the context that their comments are relevant in, so we end up with a Venn diagram with two circles that don’t actually overlap at all, but are tangent at a single point.

We’re having the illusion of a conversation here.

Here’s the thing: I mean no disrespect to anyone, but WvW is not the ideal context to talk about balance or optimal builds. WvW is a very broad umbrella that encompasses zerg battles, small skirmishes, and a variety of other playstyles that are not under controlled conditions. You might find yourself in a 1v4 fight and emerge victorious because all of your opponents are up-scaled. Or 1v3 against actual level 80s but your gear is substantially better.

These are all factors that exist in WvW, and it’s not possible to know when they do and do not apply. In short, there are many, many builds that are “viable” in WvW.

In tPvP, on the other hand, everyone is on a level playing field (as far as stats and level are concerned). So, when people complain that a nerf to the current fotm P/P condition/nade HGH build is going to hurt Engineers, if they’re talking about tPvP, they might be absolutely correct. That’s not to say that it’s our only build—Engi bunker is still pretty good—but as far as I’ve been able to determine it’s one of very few builds that survive the crucible of higher ranked tPvP. Nerf it if you must, but fix our bugs and buff some stuff so we have some builds, aside from bunker, that we can run and not just be viewed as easy meat.

Could you post a bunker build for engineer? I watched a lot of high skilled games and never saw a bunker engineer.

I think you are right in many ways Maullus, but I think the biggest question and problem we face is:

“When is something Viable?”

I mean, I have been dueling a lot in sPvP lately, and I do my daily in Hot joints all the time, and I have tested my confusion build in marts month inside tPvP a few times, and I had a lot of fun, and it worked perfectly fine for me there! I mean

The question is then? is it viable, but what is viable? is something only viable if the top 5% of the player base in tPvP deem it worthy to fit into the current Meta they have there? or is it viable when it works just fine for the remaning 95% of the playerbase? (I don’t claim It do, nor that I have the answear).

Because, if I can go into sPvP and fight toe on toe with rank 40+ players, (there is some what many 1vs1 encounters in my little experince doing tPvP), then I gues it’s somewhat “viable”? ain’t it? Again, I don’t have the answear for when something is viable, but I have yet to see someone come we a real answear to that!

@Maskagnada: Also, thanks :P

edit: Also WvW got different playing areas, where you need to fullfill different roles or do different objectives, but the requirement for optimal builds is just as hardcore as in sPvP, if you roam around in a bad roaming build, you will get melted by the other roamers, just as if you try run a zerg buster unit with 20 people in roaming builds will get destoryed! There is a lot more to WvW then most sPvP players reliase, which is fine if they don’t care about it, but there is just as much complexity in serious WvW, as in tPvP

It has nothing to do with that. I’d like to know what Anet intends to do with us with these contradictive, clumsy and careless changes based on a design that will never ever be rewarding.

The only change that really felt clumsy and careless up to now, have been the way they did handle Kit Refinment, which I still believe will turn out awesome when the remove that shared internal Cooldown

Exactly what I talked about. Something like one step foward and two steps back.

Are people really complaining that you need to be a top player to press one button to drink an elixir? This ain’t fighting games, you’re not doing some insanely hard link or something.

No I don’t think anyone is complaining about that Guanglai, I’m actually not sure how you got to that conclusion at all :P

let me summarize people’s complaints for you …

THE SKY IS FALLING! the sky is falling! OMG the SKY IS fallING!

They will nerf the Engineer one way or another just like they always have. They always will.
People complained about 100nades so the devs said they don’t want the engie doing that much damage. CondiNades has always been around and always has been used and does more overall damage than 100nades but 90% of the engie population hasn’t been using it until now. Now that this build is very popular and they see it can be done by anyone without much difficulty; they will do something about it.
Usually someone either runs a power or condition build but the engie can do both by stacking might. For other classes this isn’t much of a problem because they don’t have access to many conditions or their condition weapons dont have much power to back them up. Engineers have every single condition available to them between pistols and nades.
What they SHOULD do is buff boon removal for all classes and let the community decide whether they want to use it or not. [read: shorter cooldowns and removal of multiple boons]
It would be horrible if one were to remove 3s of swiftness instead of 25 stacks of might >.>

Wolf!

WOOOOLLF!! the wolves are coming!

Yes, people on the forums are prone to hysterics. That doesn’t mean that there isn’t a germ of truth to some of the concerns.

The Engineers that didn’t just roll up to take advantage of the latest fotm will cobble some new build(s) together and soldier on. However, before HGH became popular Engi was viewed by most decent PvPers with a mixture of apathy and derision, and not without some merit. Even 100nades didn’t really give a decent player cause for concern, it just put us in the same camp as Warriors. “Watch out for that gimmick burst, then dismantle.”

If they obliterate HGH like they obliterated Kit Refinement, there goes the fotm P/P condi nades build, and, peripherally, any other Might stacking build. Which, as I’ve asked (with absolute sincerity) leaves us with what? What PvP roamer builds are we left with? What do we uniquely bring to the table in a 5 man tPvP team if not the ability to apply significant pressure and unsettle the current bunker-heavy meta?

I’d love to have that conversation, instead of the hysterics and counter-hysterics.

Even as a WvW player, I still know this: If they obliterate HGH, we still have the best condition burst damage in THE game! You don’t NEED HGH, to do decent condition damage!

I mean, you can have acces to double, even triple of all the hard damage condition’s, and even without might stacking in sPvP my burning is rolling for about 650 damage per thick? with rune of undead probaly 700? so just because HGH is removed, we still have a powerfull condition damage to counter the bunkers (I still think my confusion bomb build actually will melt a bunker build faster then a HGH nade build)

Maskaganda.2043:

MrForz.1953:

Face it, the last patch forced the Engineer players into HGH in order to remain efficient, the new KR is a joke and is nearly impossible to manage when having more than one kit, plus it’s not worth the pathetic, unhelpful and unwelcome effects it has. It is anything but a step foward.

Of course we drew lines. Not alot of people actually looked to play the Engi just to drink and shoot without anything else in between. Anet designs Engies (and over-nerf them) in order to remain versatile, but wait… I can’t be versatile if I decide to not spend 30 points in alchemy? What the…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fuxQwXZSdxI

10 points in alchemy. no hgh. no 409. several kits. destroys stuff.

I saw a lot of people destroying themselves. Confusion stacks ftw.

Massive complaints about Confusion, to be watched closely.

Zeebok.1460:

Maskaganda.2043:

MrForz.1953:

Face it, the last patch forced the Engineer players into HGH in order to remain efficient, the new KR is a joke and is nearly impossible to manage when having more than one kit, plus it’s not worth the pathetic, unhelpful and unwelcome effects it has. It is anything but a step foward.

Of course we drew lines. Not alot of people actually looked to play the Engi just to drink and shoot without anything else in between. Anet designs Engies (and over-nerf them) in order to remain versatile, but wait… I can’t be versatile if I decide to not spend 30 points in alchemy? What the…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fuxQwXZSdxI

10 points in alchemy. no hgh. no 409. several kits. destroys stuff.

I saw a lot of people destroying themselves. Confusion stacks ftw.

I can only imagine what I could do if my conditions hit that hard in tpvp, no wonder people are complaining with conditions hitting that hard.

Ostricheggs.3742:

timidobserver.7925:

I disagree with HGH being difficult. Well it can be difficult in PVE, but in any form of PVP you should do fine.

Wait, what? Can you explain this to me?

Two dodges, one stun break, lots of damage. HGH in a nutshell.

Every fight is a complex set of reactions. It’s a SOLELY reactionary class. You don’t determine the course of a fight, the other player(s) do. To imply that it’s easier in PvP is kinda insane.

Ostrich: we’re beginning to notice a trend with the naysayers of these types of threads, there’s a sense of them trying to manipulate the data for whatever purpose they have (keeping engineers weak and reactionary comes to mind in pvp especially if they start a proper leaderboard system).

It’s happened common place in every other mmo forum out there. Since this much time has passed now it’s becoming more obvious that it’s not that they truly believe what they are saying, it’s more along the lines of either the engineers who follow these guys have too much pride in their namesake to accept the truth and those who don’t play engis but rather against them would like nothing more then to keep them as weak if not weaker then they already are.

People like you and I are usually attacked because we make too much sense and offer evidence so the only thing they have left to use to attack us with are accusations and character attacks because they can’t actually defend what they’ve done to this class over the past 7 months with evidence and math.

Raijinn.9065:

I can only imagine what I could do if my conditions hit that hard in tpvp, no wonder people are complaining with conditions hitting that hard.

Keep in mind that while we can do more damage in WvW, we can also obtain a lot more health/toughness, so if people run balanced builds, everything equals out! That said, there is a lot of players that stack 3x Offensive stats on all gear, which means they melt faster then anything, which can be quite funny cause you can take one more then one enemy because of it! But 1vs1 against players with baalnced stats and builds it’s pretty much the same as tPvP in terms of baalnce

Also @tigirius.9014 , looool at your post, I see you ain’t afraid of sounding arrogant! ^^