Guild Wars 2

Last-Damaged Target was…I want to say it was a good idea, but I’m not sure how nobody thought to ask how AoEs, etcetera would work with it.

As it stands, I’ve had people think of the new targeting method as a bug, and that’s…well, it almost qualifies, honestly.

I can see the merits in it, though – by having it be the ‘last damaged target,’ you prevent somebody from targeting, and being able to destroy an enemy, from a massive distance (try targeting a practice dummy in Fort Marriner from the greatest distance you can, and you’ll understand why ‘enemy is targeted by owner’ by itself would be a bit much). It just doesn’t work well in conjunction with AoEs and bouncing attacks.

So, here’s my suggestion for fixing this issue:
Instead of Last-Damaged Target, have Turret AI check for two conditions, and target the enemy that satisfies both criteria:
1 ) Is an enemy targeted by the turret’s owner?
2 ) Has the turret’s owner damaged this enemy?

By using these two criteria, you improve the precision of the turret’s targeting while also preventing AoEs from throwing the targeting off, while still preserving the damage requirement.

Thoughts?

First off I fail to see how a 1.6k damage rocket once every 4 seconds (or even rifle turret when fire rate is bugged) destroys a person from 1000 range, but turret balance in the meta is not what this is about so I’ll get right to it.

The issue that I have with this is that in the case of multiple targets, I don’t necessarily want all my damage focus on a single target but I may want it to split between the two. Granted your system works for 1v1 fights and certain small scale ones, but there are times that I myself have wanted to have my turrets cc one guy while I go fight another. I could do that with the old targeting system since it was closest target set up turrets to chain the guy close to you which I could isolate. Guess what can’t do that anymore because it goes for the guy that I am fighting.
There needs to be a separate target for minion AI with its own binding and it might even open up some decent summon builds when you can start controlling where your damage is going.
Basically, good idea if your turret build involves semi nuking one target, bad idea if you need your turrets and you to do separate things.

I liked them targeting whatever was nearest them, too, honestly, but they changed it, so we have to deal with it until such time as they change it back, give us a choice, or improve it to the point where it’s actually good.
My suggestion is a fix to their system, where a turret will attack the last target damaged by the owner (so, the furthest enemy from the center of an AoE attack, the last enemy tagged by Static Shot’s bounce, or the last enemy in Hip Shot’s damage line).
Being able to designate targets for them would be ideal, but it’s less likely than getting them to just improve their own system to do what they’ve said they wanted it to do without allowing someone to be a safe, unassailable distance away.
It doesn’t seem like it would be incredibly difficult to implement, but their Turret code must be Lovecraftian, for all their difficulties with it.

I mean, logically, I’d think that all they’d have to do in order to implement that is to set up another criteria for the targeting system, but I have no idea what kind of mess they’re trying to sort, really. Using the same system as in the original post, I’d think the following set of criteria would work as the basis for a designated Turret Targeting System (which would also address an oversight I just noticed wherein ground-targeted AoEs like the Grenade Kit don’t necessarily result in targeting anything):

1a ) Has an enemy been marked as a target (Ctrl-T, if no other function exists for this) by the turret’s owner or someone in the turret’s owner’s party?
If: Criteria 1a is negative, then Criteria 1b is consulted.
1b ) Is an enemy targeted by the turret’s owner?
If: either 1a or 1b is positive, then 2 follows.
2 ) Has the turret’s owner damaged this enemy?
3) Has the turret’s owner damaged an enemy in range of the turret at all?

If:1a OR 1b is positive AND 2 is positive, Turret attacks enemy that satisfies both criteria. Criteria 1b does not get checked if 1a is positive, giving Criteria 1a priority.
If: 1a AND 1b are negative, skip directly to Criteria 3; if Criteria 3 is satisfied, Turrets attack the nearest target that satisfied the condition most recently.
If: None of the above are applicable, Turrets attack the nearest target.

Or they could improve the base idea of turrets so that targeting isn’t as much of an issue. Make them AoE like attacks. For example, rocket turret will instead of firing one rocket, fire 3 rockets towards the nearest three enemies. If there are 3 enemies 3 rockets are fired but if there is only one enemy, only one rocket is fired. Flame turret instead of shooting in a single direction has its range reduced by say half and shoots flames in a 360 arc around it hitting up to 5 enemies. Etc etc. Because just coming up with better AI for turrets really won’t be enough IMO. They’re too easy to avoid and destroy, not to mention immobile, so they need to be good enough to warrant a utility slot that could be worth 5 skills instead of just 1(if you replaced it with a tool kit).

That would involve more effort than I feel they’re willing to put in. Balancing is something I think should be left until everything is working close to properly, besides; we can’t tell how effective something could actually be until it’s doing almost exactly what it’s supposed to be doing.
Fixing/legitimizing the Fire Rate bugs, resolving the issues with Overcharges not functioning properly, these are the main things that I think need to be done before they start trying to rebalance turrets.
Besides, I didn’t make this thread to discuss balancing them. I made this thread to present an idea that could improve their targeting, nothing more.
Balancing them is an issue for other threads to discuss, and I’d like to leave it that way.

Anymras.5729:

That would involve more effort than I feel they’re willing to put in. Balancing is something I think should be left until everything is working close to properly, besides; we can’t tell how effective something could actually be until it’s doing almost exactly what it’s supposed to be doing.
Fixing/legitimizing the Fire Rate bugs, resolving the issues with Overcharges not functioning properly, these are the main things that I think need to be done before they start trying to rebalance turrets.
Besides, I didn’t make this thread to discuss balancing them. I made this thread to present an idea that could improve their targeting, nothing more.
Balancing them is an issue for other threads to discuss, and I’d like to leave it that way.

Ahh ok. Well then just on the subject of targeting improvements maybe they could do something with aggro and threat generation as in the turret checks nearby mobs before firing for threat levels.

1:So the turret will target the enemy in range that has done the most damage to the engineer.
2: Should damage levels be equal or nonexistent the turret would then attack the enemy the engi is currently targeting.
3:Should the engi not be targeting anyone and there is no threat generation, the turret would then attack the strongest percieved target as in, for pve it would attack the highest level monster or highest ranking monster(IE, champions targeted before trash) and in pvp it would attack the enemy with the highest health.

I personally like the threat generation idea but I feel my last two points are a bit weak, I just figured this could work as it seems simpler than implementing several criterion into the AI regarding current targets and multi-step processes as those would have a higher chance(IMO) to be done improperly.

It would require an aggro/threat generation method to be implemented, which could be more difficult than a series of true/false checks. I don’t know what kind of kittened the code is, of course, so I can’t say which would actually be easier; I’d say both warrant consideration.

Well I think the easiest thing to do would be to make the turrets fight the target the Engineer is currently targeting instead of the last target the Engineer dealt damage on.

The Turrets still shoot the closest targets in vicinity when they are out of reach from the Engineer’s target, so I can see this option beeing implemented while keeping their passive ability to fight ennemies in close proximity.

In some case, if you fight with bombs or grenades, you can even make sure they won’t target a specific foe and keep dealing their supressive fire on ennemies around them.

The problem with having them simply attack what the Engineer is targeting is the massive distances you can target from, and the potential for people to do things like leave a nest of turrets at a choke point, run off to max targeting distance, and then just pick a target as they enter range.
I think that’s what they were trying to avoid with ‘last damaged,’ anyway. Have to ask them to know for sure.

There were so many threads asking for turrets to target the engineers target, there were still other threads that out right demanded the turrets get changed to target the engineers target, and there were even others flat out rudely demanding that turrets target what the engineers is targeting. Therefore I hardly have any sympathy for any players who are unhappy that they target the mobs the players is.

coglin.1867:

There were so many threads asking for turrets to target the engineers target, there were still other threads that out right demanded the turrets get changed to target the engineers target, and there were even others flat out rudely demanding that turrets target what the engineers is targeting. Therefore I hardly have any sympathy for any players who are unhappy that they target the mobs the players is.

But they don’t do that…
They shoot at whatever you hit last to my knowledge(who knows, it could bug out). Personally I’d prefer if they did at the very least target what you’re targeting, at least that way I know what I’m getting. This way though my turrets get confused and attack random things everytime I use a bouncing attack or AoE.

Anymras.5729:

The problem with having them simply attack what the Engineer is targeting is the massive distances you can target from, and the potential for people to do things like leave a nest of turrets at a choke point, run off to max targeting distance, and then just pick a target as they enter range.
I think that’s what they were trying to avoid with ‘last damaged,’ anyway. Have to ask them to know for sure.

I think you don’t understand what I was trying to say.

Right now, our turrets both attack the closest targets and the last damaged one.

When our turrets are in close vicinity of the Engineer and when they have a reach of a target they will attack the one we damaged. On the other hand they still shoot te closest ennemy in vicinity when they can’t shoot our target.

So I believe it is possible for A-net to implement that change, Turrets will focus the Engineer target unless they do not have any acquisition, making them go to their previous script wich is to shoot the closest targets around.

I think it is the best all around solution.

Necrotize.2974:

coglin.1867:

There were so many threads asking for turrets to target the engineers target, there were still other threads that out right demanded the turrets get changed to target the engineers target, and there were even others flat out rudely demanding that turrets target what the engineers is targeting. Therefore I hardly have any sympathy for any players who are unhappy that they target the mobs the players is.

But they don’t do that…
They shoot at whatever you hit last to my knowledge………………………………………………………..

And what is the problem? Its still exactly what everyone asked for. If you want them to shoot something else, then you need to shoot something else.

coglin.1867:

Necrotize.2974:

coglin.1867:

There were so many threads asking for turrets to target the engineers target, there were still other threads that out right demanded the turrets get changed to target the engineers target, and there were even others flat out rudely demanding that turrets target what the engineers is targeting. Therefore I hardly have any sympathy for any players who are unhappy that they target the mobs the players is.

But they don’t do that…
They shoot at whatever you hit last to my knowledge………………………………………………………..

And what is the problem? Its still exactly what everyone asked for. If you want them to shoot something else, then you need to shoot something else.

I just explained why that’s a problem…
Shoot something with an AoE/bouncing attack and you can’t reliably know what your turret will attack or direct its fire. Seeing as almost all weapons for engineers, kits included, have AoE components, turrets being only the mildly useful tools that they are really should be easier to control so that you aren’t restricting yourself to only single target skills to make sure your turret attacks your target. It also means it’s almost impossible to get your turrets to focus on other mobs while you’re attacking a boss for very long.

Ambre: I’m reading what you’re saying as ‘Have them target the user’s target unless the user has no target, in which case they just shoot at the nearest target.’ Is that what you’re trying to say?

Coglin: The problem is that they don’t attack what you’re aiming at. They attack the last-damaged enemy.
What this means is: The enemy furthest from the center of an AoE (Explosive Shot, Grenade Kit, Bomb Kit), and the last enemy struck by a bouncing (Static Shot, Elixir F) or piercing (Hip Shot, Explosive Shot (w/Coated Bullets)) skill, will be the Turret’s target, not the Engineer’s target.
Does this really sound like what people (not me; I actually never took issue with the old targeting method (except when it tried to shoot through a wall)) were asking for when they asked for Turrets to target their target?
If so, are you one of Anet’s programming team? Because it sure seems like that’s what they heard when told to implement the current targeting.

That seems to me like a very logical manner to handle the targeting AI, and was what was “demanded” since release. So I do not see the issue with it, as it is what so many asked for.

What is your solution?

If you’re reading this thread, obviously you should be aware of the first post, in which a suggestion for resolving the issue is presented.

Anymras.5729:

If you’re reading this thread, obviously you should be aware of the first post, in which a suggestion for resolving the issue is presented.

If your reading this thread, you would know I was asking someone specifically who is not you.

As far as your suggestion, what about when players routinely do not target anyone because they are using grenade AoE reticules, AoE circles for elixirs, have no target because they are using bombs?

Indeed. Perhaps you should ask them in private, then, if you would like the conversation to be private, instead of in a public thread, where it is very much public?

As for the bit that was edited in while I was typing this post: I actually covered that in a different post. The following is a direct quote, and is intended to address that oversight.

1a ) Has an enemy been marked as a target (Ctrl-T, if no other function exists for this) by the turret’s owner or someone in the turret’s owner’s party?
If: Criteria 1a is negative, then Criteria 1b is consulted.
1b ) Is an enemy targeted by the turret’s owner?
If: either 1a or 1b is positive, then 2 follows.
2 ) Has the turret’s owner damaged this enemy?
3) Has the turret’s owner damaged an enemy in range of the turret at all?

If:1a OR 1b is positive AND 2 is positive, Turret attacks enemy that satisfies both criteria. Criteria 1b does not get checked if 1a is positive, giving Criteria 1a priority.
If: 1a AND 1b are negative, skip directly to Criteria 3; if Criteria 3 is satisfied, Turrets attack the nearest target that satisfied the condition most recently.
If: None of the above are applicable, Turrets attack the nearest target.

I am sorry, I was under the impression this was a thread discussing turret targeting, was I mistaken? If you dislike my post, feel free to report them to a moderator, otherwise, if I wish to ask someone their solution to the topic of a thread, then I will. If you dislike that, cry me a river.

Now as I was saying, as far as your suggestion, what about when players routinely do not target anyone because they are using grenade AoE reticules, AoE circles for elixirs, have no target because they are using bombs?

1a) Letting party members control another players utility skills is an all around bad idea.
1b) heading in the right direction with this one, but what do the turrets do when scrolling targets with “tab” or when targeting someone out of a turrets range so that they are not sitting idle?

It was, in fact, and this has never been in question. You’re the one who’s asking me to get out of a public conversation, though.

Refer to Criteria (Criterion? Hm.) 3 ( 3) Has the turret’s owner damaged an enemy in range of the turret at all?) and “If: 1a AND 1b are negative, skip directly to Criteria 3; if Criteria 3 is satisfied, Turrets attack the nearest target that satisfied the condition most recently.”

Edit:
1a) Unfortunately, there doesn’t currently exist a method of marking a target that could easily be appropriated for use by Turrets except for that one. If such a method did, it would be used.
1b) I suppose I didn’t mark in an ‘if 1b is positive, but the target cannot be attacked,’ consideration; it would skip to Criteria 3. Scrolling through targets would simply change what it targets, same as it changes what the user targets.

coglin.1867:

Now as I was saying, as far as your suggestion, what about when players routinely do not target anyone because they are using grenade AoE reticules, AoE circles for elixirs, have no target because they are using bombs?

My idea for this was using the aggro generation commonly utilized by enemies and simply applying it to turrets. Here is an excerpt from the Aggro page of the GW2 Wiki

1:closest target to them
2:who is dealing damage
3:top damage dealers
4:who is using a shield / has more toughness and overall armor
Now, to improve the AI of the turret and make it function as an extension of the engineer instead of its own intelligent entity I would suggest eliminating 1 and 2 and making the “top damage dealer” apply to the engineer instead of the turret. This means that the turret would attack the biggest damage dealer to the engineer and should damage levels be equal between two targets(like at the start of combat) the turret would lock onto the toughest one.

While this wouldn’t offer the control many engis want with turrets by making them attack what you’re targeting, it would at least provide reliable targets for your turret so you at least know what it will attack and can plan accordingly.

I am suggesting your missing something. If there is not player you have damage in the range of the turret, no player you have targeted in range, shall we just use general proximity next?

Necro, you do realize that the wiki is player fed. There for it is riddled with inaccuracies, and that a dev has confirmed more then once that that exact wiki page is completely inaccurate. As well, they verified that the aggro formula varies from mob to mob.

In another thread I suggested that they add a function to F5 so that it would allow us to use as a “set turret target” similar to how F1 works for rangers. Seem reasonable?

As a back up to that, I would suggest that turrets use proximity if the player you set them too goes out of range. given general AI issues, I think its best to keep it simple as possible.

Necrotize.2974:

My idea for this was using the aggro generation commonly utilized by enemies and simply applying it to turrets.

Do we know that this wasn’t what they were using before that everyone disliked? I do not recall ever seeing a dev explain how turrets targeted before, so I don’t know.

coglin.1867:

I am suggesting your missing something. If there is not player you have damage in the range of the turret, no player you have targeted in range, shall we just use general proximity next?

Necro, you do realize that the wiki is player fed. There for it is riddled with inaccuracies, and that a dev has confirmed more then once that that exact wiki page is completely inaccurate. As well, they verified that the aggro formula varies from mob to mob.

In another thread I suggested that they add a function to F5 so that it would allow us to use as a “set turret target” similar to how F1 works for rangers. Seem reasonable?

As a back up to that, I would suggest that turrets use proximity if the player you set them too goes out of range. given general AI issues, I think its best to keep it simple as possible.

Necrotize.2974:

My idea for this was using the aggro generation commonly utilized by enemies and simply applying it to turrets.

Do we know that this wasn’t what they were using before that everyone disliked? I do not recall ever seeing a dev explain how turrets targeted before, so I don’t know.

Hmm… adding a target skill like rangers could work. Maybe even just make it like a regular targeted skill so that it would attack the target you have selected upon summoning and then after that it would be proximity based? While its not a total fix it definitely would be an improvement.

If they would actually just give us buttons to press to designate targets, that would be pretty kitten nice.

coglin.1867:

I am suggesting your missing something. If there is not player you have damage in the range of the turret, no player you have targeted in range, shall we just use general proximity next?

…

In another thread I suggested that they add a function to F5 so that it would allow us to use as a “set turret target” similar to how F1 works for rangers. Seem reasonable?

As a back up to that, I would suggest that turrets use proximity if the player you set them too goes out of range. given general AI issues, I think its best to keep it simple as possible.

And you don’t get it either, because you don’t seem to have tested turrets sinds the latest changes.

They STILL SHOOT THE CLOSEST TARGET when they don’t have a visual clue on the last target the Engineer attacked. So if :
a) Priority 1 : “Attack the last damaged target by the Engineer.”
b) Priority 2 : “Attack the closest hostile target in vicinity.”

Changing a) to : “Attack the Engineer target.” doesn’t change how b) works. Those are both different condition a) beeing priotirized over b). So your complaints about not beeing able to use turrets the way you want because you don’t target an ennemy are uncalled for because condition b) would still be applied and allow them to shoot the closest targets near of your turrets.

Edit : And personnaly, I find the F5 a bad idea.

Anymras.5729:

Ambre: I’m reading what you’re saying as ‘Have them target the user’s target unless the user has no target (or no visual on that target), in which case they just shoot at the nearest target.’ Is that what you’re trying to say?

Yep, that’s it!

Give us, the engineer community, the ability to write our own AI for turrets to suit our needs

Ambrecombe.4398:

They STILL SHOOT THE CLOSEST TARGET when they don’t have a visual clue on the

No one said they didn"t. I was suggesting someone was leaving that out in thier mentioning of how it should work.

Ambrecombe.4398:

And personnaly, I find the F5 a bad idea.

Care to explain why? I have trouble fathoming any logical reason why a button that would lock turrets onto a target when it is in range, while attack the closest target when the marked one is out of range and no new in range target has been marked, as a bad idea.

coglin.1867:

Ambrecombe.4398:

They STILL SHOOT THE CLOSEST TARGET when they don’t have a visual clue on the

No one said they didn"t. I was suggesting someone was leaving that out in thier mentioning of how it should work.

Ambrecombe.4398:

And personnaly, I find the F5 a bad idea.

Care to explain why? I have trouble fathoming any logical reason why a button that would lock turrets onto a target when it is in range, while attack the closest target when the marked one is out of range and no new in range target has been marked, as a bad idea.

The answer is a pretty obvious one,

The question you should ask yourself first is, “why would we need a F5 in the first place?”

You can work around making the turrets work with proper targeting scripts alone and because what you are asking for is a rework of the Engineer UI and an extra power at the same time, wich ask unnecessary work. And if you are aware of today philosophy, time is money and certainly not something a couple of devs can spend entirely on a little gimmick wich would only resolve a small part of their bigger plan.

Basicaly, your are asking for the devs to create a proper spot and power dedicated to turrets, wich would only work for them and serve no purpose if you don’t pick them and revamp the whole way turrets actualy work.

While on the other hand, they just have to improve their current script by allowing them to shoot at the current selected target without any extra micro manadging gimmick and any effort engaged on their side.

So you have the choice between two totaly viable options, I give you that one, but one of them requieres a lot more work compared to the other one. If you work in a compagny you would easely know wich one to pick -> the one wich requieres the less time and effort, so you can focus on other things that requiere your attention.

If A-net can manadge to fix in a proper way how turrets work by spending the slightiest effort, I can only agree with their decision and cheer them up for their efficiency.

Wich brings me back to your idea, wich requieres a lot more time and effort input and would probably end up bugged anyways.

Wich is why I strictly believe your idea is bad.