Guild Wars 2

or is it now viable?

for zerg fights in wvw?

Flamethrower was never a troll build, it is merely the response of the community who believe the flamethrower could’ve been more damage orientated than it currently is.

As it stands, it has some nice utility with the added bonus of high burning capability with rapid proccs from the auto attack. The problem with flame thrower as a weapon kit is that it will also rapidly proc retaliation.

I often use it in conjunction with toolkit and pistol shield as the knockback and aoe blind are nice ‘tank’ skills whilst the easy access burn allows nice pressure to replace the lack off a pistol offhand. The fire field is also nice to combo with the blast on your shield when swapping back to your pistol/shield, although a leap finisher would be ideal.

Also it is worth noting that whilst it seems a great zerg buster with walls of fire, that is exactly what the flame thrower is not that great for.

So to answer your question: Yes it is viable, No it is not too good for zerg fights, more of a roaming utility.

Bombs offer the same utility of a flamethrower, if not better.
bombs offer it in a painfully boring way of course, all skills do the same thing over and over… but the Bomb kit gives a blind field, fire field, a knockback that does significant damage, 5 man aoe instead of 3 man cleave,…
I don’t see what a FT offers that a bomb kit doesn’t. Cooldowns are different of course, but than again: so are durations and range. But all in all they seem to offer a lot of simular utility.
Traited bombs can aoe heal for a lot, where FT of course can offer might, given that the might drops fast if swapping out of the kit.

Not saying bomb utility is that much better, but it’s at least as good as FT utility in the end.

Now look at the damage…
Bombs outperform FT by a LARGE margin!

People keep bringing up th the Flamethrower is more of an utility kit and shouldn’t be seen as a pure damage kit.

My argument is: bombs offer a crapload of utility too, but that kit is allowed some damage potential the Flamethrower is not getting even fully traited.

I would run a Elixir Gun – Toolkit – Flamethrower build, but instead I run EG and TK with Healing Bombs in a power build.
EG and FT have great trait synergy, they make a very rounded build possible.
But in the end the damage of the bombs, added to their high healing potential (for a damage kit) and their equal utility just makes me feel stupid to take the FT over the Bombs.

And yes: I am talking about WvW, which is most of what I do here.
FT is outclassed by bombs any day in a zerg, even by grenades of course but let’s compare the ‘melee’ options.
Fully traited bombs heal 5 players for at least 200 per 1/2 second, and that’s in a totally non-healing power build. And they do a lot of direct damage which is what you want in a zerg.
If you simply not use the silly healing trait for the bombs, you free up points to make your build do even a lot more damage!
FT hits 3 people in front of you, and the #2 skill has a lot of potential, so that makes up for the #1 a lot.
The damage is there, but as soon as you try bombs you notice the difference.
Still it takes a lot more button presses than just spamming your #1 bomb in a zerg while taking care of surviving…

That’s the weird thing: bombs are soooo much easier to use than a FT in a zerg… yet they are allowed higher damage. It should be equal, if not the other way around…

Without exagerating: Bombs must be one of the easiest to use melee weapons in the game, for real. And they are aoe on top of that!
Yet they are given more damage than other kits who require a lot more skill to land hits with. I find that weird design…

For the record: Tool kit is a melee kit too and should be used in this comparison. As good as it is, damage wise in a zerg it’s an utter waste… even 1v1 it fails as a main damage skill. It’s slow and in the end does not enough damage compared to the other options.

tldr: FT is an awesome kit, and if fully specced, the damage seems ok.
But in the end it’s still lacking as a damage kit, at least compared to bombs or grenades. The damage potential is there… but once you start comparing you notice the difference.
While there is no real argument why it should do less than Bombs in terms of being ‘a utility kit’…

flamethrower still suck in large scale wvw.

Tag alot, do nothing. Y, you ttrolling, but not the enemie.

Yes, Flamethrower autoattack still sucks.

However, #2 is pretty good damage. If you use Flamethrower, use it simply for its #2 skill, then swap back to bombs.

People underestimate ft builds. You can run ft/nades/eg with cele rifle and make the build work pretty well. I ran this build in solo and team queue for a while and did pretty well. Its very strong in both team fights and 1v1’s, although more prone to getting bursted down than running tk/eg/nades or tk/s/nades. Note that traveler runes are really key here, as they allow you to avoid putting 10 in tools:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fdAQFAUlUUpWrlYxdLseNCbBByJcBR2xh85IEgkC-TJhIwAAeAAk3f47FAQYZAA

Somebody else has brought this up, but why take ft over bombs? Well, ft has a number of advantages:

1. Low cd knock back
2. Safer (longer range) non-projectile damage, very useful for cleaving
3. Instant 200 toughness whenever you need it
4. Might stacking (although I admit its not too much) that doesn’t consume blast finishers
5. Incendiary ammo is very strong

Obviously bombs have their own strengths, I’m not going to say this is better in every situation. My point is just that ft can be very strong in a balanced build (although this leans more towards offense).

-Spoon

SchiTown.7598:

Somebody else has brought this up, but why take ft over bombs? Well, ft has a number of advantages:

1. Low cd knock back
2. Safer (longer range) non-projectile damage, very useful for cleaving
3. Instant 200 toughness whenever you need it
4. Might stacking (although I admit its not too much) that doesn’t consume blast finishers
5. Incendiary ammo is very strong

Obviously bombs have their own strengths, I’m not going to say this is better in every situation. My point is just that ft can be very strong in a balanced build (although this leans more towards offense).

-Spoon

I agree with you actually, but that also makes my point:

if bombs have ‘simular’ utility, not the same cooldowns etc… but still comparable utility, than why does a Flamethrower less damage?

both have their uses, both have their strenghts and weaknesses, both are a ‘more or less’ melee kit.
But bombs do very high damage, whil even a fully traited and geared flamethrower doesn’t outperform a pretty basic bomb set up.

That’s wrong in my view.
Both are ‘utility’ so both should do comparable damage too.

Note how the OP asked about zerg fights.
Bombs hit 5 targets all around you.
Flamethrower hits 3.

That alone makes the Bomb kit outperform the Flamethrower by 5 to 3 in a zerg!
IF they would do the same damage, which they do not.
Bombs do more per target AND hit 66% more targets during the fight…

Kimbald.2697:

SchiTown.7598:

Somebody else has brought this up, but why take ft over bombs? Well, ft has a number of advantages:

1. Low cd knock back
2. Safer (longer range) non-projectile damage, very useful for cleaving
3. Instant 200 toughness whenever you need it
4. Might stacking (although I admit its not too much) that doesn’t consume blast finishers
5. Incendiary ammo is very strong

Obviously bombs have their own strengths, I’m not going to say this is better in every situation. My point is just that ft can be very strong in a balanced build (although this leans more towards offense).

-Spoon

I agree with you actually, but that also makes my point:

if bombs have ‘simular’ utility, not the same cooldowns etc… but still comparable utility, than why does a Flamethrower less damage?

both have their uses, both have their strenghts and weaknesses, both are a ‘more or less’ melee kit.
But bombs do very high damage, whil even a fully traited and geared flamethrower doesn’t outperform a pretty basic bomb set up.

That’s wrong in my view.
Both are ‘utility’ so both should do comparable damage too.

Note how the OP asked about zerg fights.
Bombs hit 5 targets all around you.
Flamethrower hits 3.

That alone makes the Bomb kit outperform the Flamethrower by 5 to 3 in a zerg!
IF they would do the same damage, which they do not.
Bombs do more per target AND hit 66% more targets during the fight…

The thing is, flamethrower doesn’t hit just three.

Flame jet hits three targets per tick. At ten ticks per cast, that’s potentially 30 targets per cast – though you’ll likely never reach this ideal. For those that don’t know – flame jet is best used without a target allowing you to aim the jet manually and hit different things.

Flameblast hits five targets as it passes through, and potentially an additional five targets on detonate as well.

I shudder at the thought of using bombs to tag with, honestly.

I feel as though Flamethrower is best compared to guardian staff – Strong utility. Might stacking (fire field), some control (blind, knockback) and skill 2 basically function the same, with one healing allies. Both exceptional for tagging things very quickly with skill one hitting through walls and objects. But much like staff – while you can build and buff in various ways to get halfway decent damage, there are much better options for raw damage.

I also hardly consider 425 range ‘melee’ status. That’s only 30% less range than wave of wrath, and flame blast detonate can hit at up to 720 range.

nice points guys, i have another question though, my engineer is currently lvl 10 only but he is so slow and can’t catch up to the zergs.

any idea when he gets faster?

rocket boots + speedy kits? or just go traveler like a previous post say?

You also could use power shoes and elixir b. Using that to keep up and works usually great.

ah thanks i see

Zackie.8923:

or is it now viable?

for zerg fights in wvw?

Yes. It works for ME anyway. I use it in both hotjoin & tpvp, I’m not sure about wvw though.

eh the problem I have with bombs is people actually need to run into them… I know I just avoid them when I go up against a engie =\, and the grenades are easily avoided just don’t run behind them and range them =p

I ran into an engineer earlier today well, more like he started hip shoting me while I was roaming on my ranger. After I counter attacked with lb he decided to get close to me and start trying to kill me with the flamtrhower but all I could think of was “lol flamejet”. I feel semi bad now after exploiting flame jets weakness:
melee range while strafing around him. Watch all his attacks fail miserably but in short: yes it is still painful to use. Decent utility tho

An engi in wvw today tried to use flamthrower to hit us from behind the gate. We stacked retal and he insta downed himself. Was p cute.

Penguin.5197:

I ran into an engineer earlier today well, more like he started hip shoting me while I was roaming on my ranger. After I counter attacked with lb he decided to get close to me and start trying to kill me with the flamtrhower but all I could think of was “lol flamejet”. I feel semi bad now after exploiting flame jets weakness:
melee range while strafing around him. Watch all his attacks fail miserably but in short: yes it is still painful to use. Decent utility tho

It makes me sad how few people know how to aim flame jet properly.

Disable autotargeting. Aim flame jet manually. Never miss again.

That just makes flame blast awkward to aim and use tho

I’ve run both bomb and Flamethrower skills and I have to say that FT is far superior, at least in my playstyle.

True, bombs do more damage, but that’s because they’re big ’ol signs that say “WHATEVER YOU DO DONT STAND NEAR ME IM A BOMB LOOKIMEE”
this is especially true with the utility for the bomb, very easy to dodge.

On the other hand, a flamethrower is much, much more difficult to dodge (think of the difference between airblast and bigolbomb), and while I agree it’s a bad idea to run it while your opponent has retaliation, a button press brings you back to your rifle (which you should be using along with FT anyways cycling cooldowns) In addition, the Juggernaut ability is exceedingly powerful. I also prefer the blind that comes with FT.

Napalm blast is a must with your healing turret water field and for your fire field, the fact that it’s a blast finisher now has won me more fights than I care to admit.

Oh yeah, and the autoattack goes through walls and the final tick is a free ignite every time.

Lastly, since not a lot of people run my build, I get the advantage of surprise and nobody knows my counters.

Different strokes for different folks

FT is good only for wvw and in my opinion nades are far superior … and as second option , if i don’t take nades , i prefer bomb kit … (Bombs give you might , stealth , confusion … haling if traited … for me after nades they are the best choice ) . For spvp i find FT too weak and also for pvp i prefer using bomb and nades … much more dps

You rarely use a FT for the damage sadly. The uses I’ve had were finishing stealthed opponents, pushing people off cliffs and walls and the usual might stacking related stuff, assuming I have it equipped. I’m not entirely sure how things would turn out if the FT had a buff that would make it available amongst the primary damage weapons.

Zackie.8923:

rocket boots + speedy kits? or just go traveler like a previous post say?

If you’re really bothered by the lack of speed, there’s a trait in the Inventions line, Master category giving you 25% movement speed. Traveler runes are fine, and then you have the famed speedy kits.

If you go for the Speedy Kits route, try to spend some points in Alchemy as well, or find a way to gain some % boon duration so you get to maintain at least 11s of Swiftness for 10s cooldown instead of the infuriating 10s for 10s.

I love FT.

Its one of the most fun to use set of skills in the entire game, at least for me. You can’t be still when using it, you need to run, jump and adjust yourself to hit the most targets you can second by second, and the multiple hits of the jet helps to activate critical effects every time. You can use obstacles to hit your target while being out of reach, you can push them exactly where you want them to be, and the blind helps when you skrew things up.

It requires a lot of work compared to most “efficient” builds, but it is also way more rewarding, IMO.

Only real problem is retaliation being too strong. But for that you have other kits and good old shotgu.. I mean, rifle.

I never use bombs. They are really good in paper… but sooo boring in play.

From my experience in Gold League – bombs are better if you have a strong melee line, else you die so fast around your heavy armors. FT is safer and I use it not for melee/dps-ing. I use it for finishing enemies in down state fast (an always good for your zerg action) with ft #2, rifle #3,5,4 – to jump out. Even ft #1 AAs can do quite a lot of damage against a down state.

The biggest problem i see with bombs is that is quite hard to deliver the dps where your commander is asking as you need to be in less then melee range. The healing is a joke and everyone who says either way has never played full map zerg fights. But with bombs when you crit… it is a nice 3-4k damage

nihasa.5067:

The healing is a joke and everyone who says either way has never played full map zerg fights.

There is a old thread in here where I ran down the numbers on a dedicated cleric bomb-healing build, allowing for 1k heal/s and still 2k auto dmg. You can look for it if you’re interested, but I can assure you that it works quite nicely, since I ran this build for quite some time and the only flaw is that you need a guardian to carry you (which everybody else does as well).

elixir-infused bombs on its own may be garbage, but build around it, you can achieve some amazing outcomes.

Care to link it? Tried a full cleric build (+250 healing bloodlust thingy) and the healing per person was 400 or somthing like that. No where close to 1000.

Fun things to do with flamethrower: Get juggernaut trait, get a bit of crit (knight set does it well), get might on crit sigil and voila. You have such a high rate of fire (pun intended) that you get a steady flow of 10+ might stacks with just a little bit of crit. Works well with any crit sigil. Tossing a rune of strength in there is pretty dope too.

nihasa.5067:

Care to link it? Tried a full cleric build (+250 healing bloodlust thingy) and the healing per person was 400 or somthing like that. No where close to 1000.

Going full cleric for Elixir-Infused Bombs is just honestly a waste: at only a 15% healing power coefficient, healing bombs is the perfect example of a build where the best defense is a good offense—you gain a whole lot more for your build slotting for power than you do healing.

Flame Thrower has its merits. Anyone not taking it because they are judging it on uts utility value simply hasnt learnt to play to its strenghts. I regularly run FT with toolkit and either elixir s/rocketboots/slick shoes. It should never be used in a zerg due to retal. But for roaming and spvp it holds its own. The autoattack is one of the best AA’s in the game. It has short to medium range, hits multiple enemies and can apply burning (either on the last tick or immediately if you use incendiary ammo which you should. I find it has great synergy with the rifle. I also like that you can autoattack without a target. You can use the knockback to stop warrior charges, knock thieves out of stealth and oh btw its very good at cleaning up mesmer clones. I could go on..