Guild Wars 2

Hi guys.

Just here to pop my thought through on why I think the engineer is in just a shoddy place.
This is for PvP and WvW (small scale) only.
To be clear this is my opinion and I could be completely wrong.

1. Over-abundance of blind.

As Engineers we VERY rarely autoattack, they do pitiful damage, SLOW attack speed and generally are a waste. This makes blinds SUPER effective vs the engineer.
Its very clear that Mesmer(on shatter when traited, which is common in this meta) and Ele(when traited into fire) is able to completely beat us out due to these blinds.

2. Unblockable skills and engineer damage mitigation and opposed mitigation.

Many unblockable skills such as mirror blade(especially with lowered CD when traited) and Staff 2-5 when traited.
Most classes have some form of flat damage mitigation while being able to still complete actions (stone heart, distortion, etc) while an engineer relies on BLOCKS that lock out all actions but still can be penetrated by MANY skill(or elixir S which leaves you screwed by condis and still lock out your actions),
most other classes mitigation is not countered as easily and as obviously.

3. Lack of defensive traits

We have tons of healing with our new traits with decent uptime on protection as always. This ties into the above, but once again we have very little truly good defensive traits.
AMR now has A SUPER high CD, and the bug that it has with healing turrets overcharge majorly affects its performance.

4. Our role.

We don’t have a place.
OUr builds the moment are hard damage via Marauders SD or similar burst builds. However that position is very much filled by mesmer, with more AOE/single target damage and more mobility AND more mitigation, and to a lesser degree thief, more mobility and more single target damage.
We can also run tanky support just fine, but this again is outclassed by MILES by bunker guards or Eles.

5. Stability and CC.

CC and stability as always been a strong way to counter engineers, but its worth mentioning this aggregates the issue post patch.
Engineers depends on CC to get damage out as most of our damage is on AOE and ground targeting skills. If we can’t pin down our opponent, we can’t bring the damage out.
As a class that lacks decent stability, unless you run the terrible FT, we get CC’D to hell from Mesmers and warriors while we are completely unable to counter while they have their stab/distortion up.

6. Lackluster damage traits.

Need I say more?
So many reasons why I can say this, just go look at explosives and firearms. I mean REALLY.

Finally
7. condition changes.

Bleeding has always been a great source of added kick for an engineer, sure IP was our bread and butter and definitely a strong trait prepatch, but now that bleeding is gutted even with high condi numbers we lose out on a LOT!
Even IP is pretty bad post patch when you compare it to other classes burning burst potential, ele and guard for some.

As an engineer main I am quite sad to feel useless when playing PvP in pugs and even premade games.
I feel like rerolling anything but a Ranger yields better results than running engi. Even if just SLIGHTLY better in some cases, but I do feel much better when not running engi.

It scares me to think that the class I enjoy the most is now, BAD, not from a meta perspective, but from MY perspective while PLAYING it.

I hope that this can somehow be fixed even if I don’t have decent suggestions on how to go about fixing the power creep that left Engis (and rangers) behind.

I don’t mind playing Marauder stats. Actually I’m feeling a lot better about my cleave now. It doesn’t make the conditions totally useless, they’re used to counter specific things or as a bit of gravy rather than being the brunt of our damage. Engineer’s biggest weakness has always been condis, with only 1 heal worth taking and that removing a laughably pathetic 2 conditions. We need better condi clear and always have, it’s the #1 problem with the class.

My list is :

1) Lack of condition removal in a period where condition are powerful.
2) Celestial amulet was just right for us, without it we just drop in efficiency
3) I find stability ok, but the number of trait that stop or return the first CC is just annoying and mitigate completly one of our strength.

I don’t agree with the lack of defensive trait. More condi removal yes, but otherwise I think we are good.

For the damage thing, again it get back to the celestial amulet. We are hybrid. Most of attack skill except rifle give both direct and condition damage damage.

Our roles isn’t a problem. It’s just that we are no longer good at our roles. We used to be a jack of all trade. We had different tool to tackle most challenge. We weren’t the best at anything, but we were able to do good thing in almost all situation.

For the blind. It’s a small problem IMO. Yes ok we’ll have a harder time against Mesmer and Elementalist, but that’s not why we are in such a bad place right now.

Thaddeus.4891:

1) Lack of condition removal in a period where condition are powerful.

I have to disagree here. Condition removal for us right now is far stronger than it has ever been. Most builds have the potential to remove 9+ conditions just by taking
E-Gun and 1 Elixir. It is not that we lack condition removal, but rather you trait for it, which is not horrible in itself either as you get excellent might stacking potential in the process.

2) Celestial amulet was just right for us, without it we just drop in efficiency

I completely agree with this statement, as we are undoubtedly a hybrid class through and through. The blow struck to hybridization is definitely felt with engineer probably more than everyone else; largely due to lost trait attributes.

3) I find stability ok, but the number of trait that stop or return the first CC is just annoying and mitigate completly one of our strength.

This is also true, but to a lesser extent in my mind, as many of the skills that come to mind have rather obvious animations or setups that display when you should/not attack. The introduction of Moa to our F-slot was probably intended to help combat the more extreme version of this hard counter through Rampage and Lich. Like you suggest, stability stacking was a necessary change and one that not only promotes counter-play, but skillful as well.

Our roles isn’t a problem. It’s just that we are no longer good at our roles.

This completely. We are back to the position we were before the Celestial Amulet revamp. It is not that the class is unable to function without it, but we are not seeing the full strength of a hybrid anymore.

Mnemesis.8257:

I have to disagree here. Condition removal for us right now is far stronger than it has ever been. Most builds have the potential to remove 9+ conditions just by taking
E-Gun and 1 Elixir. It is not that we lack condition removal, but rather you trait for it, which is not horrible in itself either as you get excellent might stacking potential in the process.

Ya but you said it yourself. You need elixir to have good condition removal and elixir wasn’t part of any of the best build pre-patch. Now ppl explore those becasue of the need for more condition removal.

About the celestial amulet, I think the amulet could still work.., its just that the traitlines don’t support it in its current form. Assuming toolkit and nades and rifle and doom/intelligence you can makes something really okay work, but the hybridization is hurt by a couple of trait issues.

1. Incendiary Powder being moved to firearms. This is a problem because without that trait we have horrible condi pressure. We can’t drop explosives because we need traited nades to do damage. If we take both of them, then we lose out on Power Wrench/perma swift/perma vigor (tools) or basic sustain (alch). Firearms tries to focus on both conditions and our non-kit weapons, and overall doesn’t work out in a useful or meaningful way to builds that aren’t pure condi.

2. Shrapnel sucks. Shrapnel’s 15% trigger chance to proc 2 bleeds is no where near enough to work, so we end up doing really poor damage. Honestly this trait should just be deleted from existence and replaced with incendiary powder in its spot. Also thermobaric detonation and the mortar trait in that slot are also bad choices, since the mortar isn’t very good, and the blast finisher on dodge is poor in practice.

3. Backpack Regenerator indirect nerf. This trait apparently used to apply a 9 second buff to apply the regen of the trait while in a kit, so it lingered when you went into rifle. That doesn’t happen anymore meaning that cele engi has much less sustain over time.

4. GM trait slot in Alchemy- Not a huge problem, but HGH means we need to take elixerS/X to be useful. This means no slick shoes, which was a main utility in teamfights. Elixir S is also needed to survive with the power creep so slick shoes is wasted either way. The other options in the slot are just bad. The stimulant pack isn’t very helpful, and Iron Blooded does nothing.

5. Inventions isn’t as good as alchemy for sustain (especially for condi removal). yet its hard to feel tanky without both of them. Also bunker down reveals you in stealth via the landmine, and Medical Dispersion Field seems way too weak. AMR was overnerfed.

6. Tools is poorly designed. Adrenal implant makes a minor trait literally wasted.

So to sum it up, our problem with engi is that we can’t make a build that can properly utilize each stat that celestial brings. I imagine if the crusader amulet gave precision over ferocity, we could use that instead and survive without condi pressure. As of right now you either need crazy burn uptime (ele) or crazy mightstacking (ele AND necro) to make celestial work due to the traitline stat point changes. And the engi can achieve both of those using FT kit, pistols and E-Gun, but the result is something that can’t stack might as effortlessly as either of those classes, that has poor cleave from not having nades, and falls instantly to focus fire, for not having tool kit.

Thats my view of the problem. It honestly feels so complex and frustrating that I’m really not sure how to better describe it or really propose a solution, other than by asking for IP to replace shrapnel.

Well, since we’re re-posting threads from the PvP forums:

Hmm, I don’t think engi is in a great place, but it’s good and probably one of the more balanced profs. While I agree to some extent with some of the OP’s points, I disagree with more:

1) The amount of blind affects all other professions just as much. If this is a criticism against the meta as a whole, that’s fine, but there’s not much that’s engineer-specific, particularly since we got a whole extra blind field on Mortar.

2) Eh, I don’t think this is a big issue. Gear Shield is our only block and while it’s a pretty big skill for engis, I think the issues with block affect Guardians more and they’re still doing fine.

3) AMR could use a more reasonable cooldown (above 10, but below 90), but I’m ok with the defensive traits as a whole, even if they’re not overwhelming. Between bunker down and the alchemy line, we get a pretty decent amount of constant healing.

4) The Engi role has never been that specific since it’s a pretty hybrid-focused profession, but as usual, we do really well with CC. I’d say that we’re a high CC role that brings a bit more hybrid utility than something like a hammer war.

5) Yea, Engis don’t have a ton of stab, but all classes have some degree of weakness. I feel like we have enough other ways to avoid or handle CC outside of stab, particularly with the Elixir X and Mortar kit buffs.

6) I agree on this. If we could go into both firearms and explosives, this may not be an issue, but losing out on mobility (inventions or tools) and defense (alchemy) is just too much. It’d be nice to see firearms and Explosives good enough to

7) Yea, bleeding could use some love.

Overall, I don’t think engi is as bad off as many people say they are, I do think that condi specs need some love in the form of bug fixes (pistol AA needs to be explosion and bomb kit needs fixes) and trait adjustments so that they’re not so bad off without explosives and firearms. The latter may be the biggest reason that power engi builds are the meta atm since you can pull off power with just explosives, but condition without explosives and firearms is pretty rough.

Thaddeus.4891:

Ya but you said it yourself. You need elixir to have good condition removal and elixir wasn’t part of any of the best build pre-patch. Now ppl explore those becasue of the need for more condition removal.

Sure, I’ll bite. If we are talking pre-patch, what did everyone and their mother go into Alchemy for? Protection Injection, Transmute and Backpack Regenerator. There was a severe loss of build effectiveness and variety due to the necessity to pick up Grenadier for the vast majority of builds at the time. Not only are we currently capable of doing that right now, but we are handed condie removal on a silver platter with 40% boon duration in the process. So yes, if you want to be black and white about it you do go into Alchemy for extra condie removal. However, you cannot overlook the fact that there is absolutely no reason not to do so for the complaints that were listed in this thread. There is arguably no loss of survivability from doing so, no loss of damage and no requirements to do so. If anyone has a personal gripe with Elixirs, that’s on them. The only other options would be to spec Inventions for 3 condies removed every 15s on HT and run either reduced condie duration or Lyssa; valid options yes, but far less attractive.

TL;DR
HGH isn’t the only option. All potential others are just lackluster by comparison, pre-patch or post.

Mnemesis.8257:

I have to disagree here. Condition removal for us right now is far stronger than it has ever been. Most builds have the potential to remove 9+ conditions just by taking
E-Gun and 1 Elixir.

Ok… uhm how?

I’m assuming you mean take Alchemy and if only one elixir is taken it’s almost always Elixir S (btw who actually runs Elixir Gun in a meta build?)

Like, you have 2 condi clear from Healing Turret every 15s assuming you don’t detonate… if you take Alchemy you have 2 condi cleanse from Elixir S (but have to pop seriously valuable skills in order to get that condi cleanse). You then have one condi cleanse on a 30 second cooldown with Mortar Gun’s 5?

I want to see how you get this 9.

GrandHaven.1052:

Hi guys.

Just here to pop my thought through on why I think the engineer is in just a shoddy place.
This is for PvP and WvW (small scale) only.
To be clear this is my opinion and I could be completely wrong.

1. Over-abundance of blind.

As Engineers we VERY rarely autoattack, they do pitiful damage, SLOW attack speed and generally are a waste. This makes blinds SUPER effective vs the engineer.
Its very clear that Mesmer(on shatter when traited, which is common in this meta) and Ele(when traited into fire) is able to completely beat us out due to these blinds.

2. Unblockable skills and engineer damage mitigation and opposed mitigation.

Many unblockable skills such as mirror blade(especially with lowered CD when traited) and Staff 2-5 when traited.
Most classes have some form of flat damage mitigation while being able to still complete actions (stone heart, distortion, etc) while an engineer relies on BLOCKS that lock out all actions but still can be penetrated by MANY skill(or elixir S which leaves you screwed by condis and still lock out your actions),
most other classes mitigation is not countered as easily and as obviously.

3. Lack of defensive traits

We have tons of healing with our new traits with decent uptime on protection as always. This ties into the above, but once again we have very little truly good defensive traits.
AMR now has A SUPER high CD, and the bug that it has with healing turrets overcharge majorly affects its performance.

4. Our role.

We don’t have a place.
OUr builds the moment are hard damage via Marauders SD or similar burst builds. However that position is very much filled by mesmer, with more AOE/single target damage and more mobility AND more mitigation, and to a lesser degree thief, more mobility and more single target damage.
We can also run tanky support just fine, but this again is outclassed by MILES by bunker guards or Eles.

5. Stability and CC.

CC and stability as always been a strong way to counter engineers, but its worth mentioning this aggregates the issue post patch.
Engineers depends on CC to get damage out as most of our damage is on AOE and ground targeting skills. If we can’t pin down our opponent, we can’t bring the damage out.
As a class that lacks decent stability, unless you run the terrible FT, we get CC’D to hell from Mesmers and warriors while we are completely unable to counter while they have their stab/distortion up.

6. Lackluster damage traits.

Need I say more?
So many reasons why I can say this, just go look at explosives and firearms. I mean REALLY.

Finally
7. condition changes.

Bleeding has always been a great source of added kick for an engineer, sure IP was our bread and butter and definitely a strong trait prepatch, but now that bleeding is gutted even with high condi numbers we lose out on a LOT!
Even IP is pretty bad post patch when you compare it to other classes burning burst potential, ele and guard for some.

---

As an engineer main I am quite sad to feel useless when playing PvP in pugs and even premade games.
I feel like rerolling anything but a Ranger yields better results than running engi. Even if just SLIGHTLY better in some cases, but I do feel much better when not running engi.

It scares me to think that the class I enjoy the most is now, BAD, not from a meta perspective, but from MY perspective while PLAYING it.

I hope that this can somehow be fixed even if I don’t have decent suggestions on how to go about fixing the power creep that left Engis (and rangers) behind.

I did the whole marauder set of builds and ditched them. I now play either condi bunker or condi glass nuke and now am happy. in particular my condi nuke I love playing. Sure I get downed a lot, but I can take anything that doesnt get the jump on me with me, and I can down people very fast, no need to switch between various kits and use 20 abilities, by time it takes a build like that to switch my target is already dead, or I am.

Your post is too long for me to go into, but I am happy with my engi and disagree with a ton what you posted. I recommend you ditch the marauder mindset and go experiment, you’ll have a blast doing it win or lose.

Also, you’re focused on PvP, but dont forget about PvE. And there we outshine necros and mesmers multi fold, condi mesmers and necros in PvE are not even close enough to us to be anywhere near the same league, so while I uderstand you may be callign for some buffs to us and nerfs to them, I just can’t support it based on rest of the game outside of SPVP.

GrandHaven.1052:

Hi guys.

Just here to pop my thought through on why I think the engineer is in just a shoddy place.
This is for PvP and WvW (small scale) only.
To be clear this is my opinion and I could be completely wrong.

1. Over-abundance of blind.

As Engineers we VERY rarely autoattack, they do pitiful damage, SLOW attack speed and generally are a waste. This makes blinds SUPER effective vs the engineer.
Its very clear that Mesmer(on shatter when traited, which is common in this meta) and Ele(when traited into fire) is able to completely beat us out due to these blinds.

Haven’t found this to be a problem.

GrandHaven.1052:

3. Lack of defensive traits

We have tons of healing with our new traits with decent uptime on protection as always. This ties into the above, but once again we have very little truly good defensive traits.
AMR now has A SUPER high CD, and the bug that it has with healing turrets overcharge majorly affects its performance.

We have a lot of active defences in the form of hard CC, soft CC and our very own blinds.

GrandHaven.1052:

4. Our role.

We don’t have a place.
OUr builds the moment are hard damage via Marauders SD or similar burst builds. However that position is very much filled by mesmer, with more AOE/single target damage and more mobility AND more mitigation, and to a lesser degree thief, more mobility and more single target damage.
We can also run tanky support just fine, but this again is outclassed by MILES by bunker guards or Eles.

We can still provide condi damage in the form of FT/EG or FT/Bombs (even with it being bugged). The only problem I have with FT/Bombs is having to stay close to someone to deal a good deal of your damage which can be detrimental when fighting Mesmers and LB Rangers.

GrandHaven.1052:

5. Stability and CC.

CC and stability as always been a strong way to counter engineers, but its worth mentioning this aggregates the issue post patch.
Engineers depends on CC to get damage out as most of our damage is on AOE and ground targeting skills. If we can’t pin down our opponent, we can’t bring the damage out.
As a class that lacks decent stability, unless you run the terrible FT, we get CC’D to hell from Mesmers and warriors while we are completely unable to counter while they have their stab/distortion up.

Blinds are a good counter if you run Crate or Mortar, or bomb kit. Dropping a Crate on a Rampage literally nullifies the Rampage if you stand in the smoke field. Mortar kit, does the same thing but doesn’t last as long as Flameturret’s smoke field. Bomb kit doesn’t blind as often as the other two.

GrandHaven.1052:

Finally
7. condition changes.

Bleeding has always been a great source of added kick for an engineer, sure IP was our bread and butter and definitely a strong trait prepatch, but now that bleeding is gutted even with high condi numbers we lose out on a LOT!
Even IP is pretty bad post patch when you compare it to other classes burning burst potential, ele and guard for some.

From playing Necro, I’ve definitely found bleeding to not be a great main source of damage but Bleeding has never been that. It’s always been 1 part of a greater whole.

As a Condi class you need a hard hitter that combos with bleeds to really push the damage. For Necros, it’s Terror(fear deals damage). For engies it’s burning and without IP or Incen-Ammo, I find our damage extremely lackluster.

I personally have very little qualms with Engies tbh. I’ve found power builds that aren’t SD that deal laughably incredible amount of damage, the one condi build that is just too good right now and a bunker build that needs tweaking.

Some of you may be struggling, that I can empathize with considering what we have to face but consider deviating from the status quo. Grenades and toolkit shouldn’t be the be all and end all.

The only way I keep up with other classes that aren’t terrible at their job is through the use of the Elixir S, sometimes Rampage. Block is hardly a thing nowadays. Despite that, a power based rifle build deals quite a lot of damage as long as every single Overcharged Shot isn’t wasted.

Sorry guys, been away. I noticed that quite a few people seem to bhe comparing our prepatch options to what choices we have post patch, and while I agree diversity is there, you are neglecting one very important thing.

OTHER classes. Our changes are GREAT considering our prepatch position, but post patch other classes(bar ranger) got tonnes more in the form of pure damaging traits as well as utility.

I find it funny how Ranger and Engi, both being worked on by the same guy, seem super weak post patch.

Note, I pretty much extensively play Engi > Necro > Warrior > Mesmer.

GrandHaven.1052:

Hi guys.

Just here to pop my thought through on why I think the engineer is in just a shoddy place.
This is for PvP and WvW (small scale) only.
To be clear this is my opinion and I could be completely wrong.

I think i felt very similar because my spec had been nerfed. Im a dual kit cele bomb user and have been for 2 years. I was happy with that and felt in a very good place. Till the nerf patch.

So after the patch I was stuck on a low end PC till a new one arrived. It means i mainly gathered and crafted and played about with specs. I found a spec i loved and geared for it. once the pc arrived went out and tested it. Its great and pretty much all the issues you mentioned aren’t a problem.

Do i think the spec will hold up in high end team pvp? I don’t care! Only a few people play that way so why do any of us really care? Seriously why do we care lol? Theres like a few teams

I’m currently exploiting burns in a condi spec (carrion and scav runes or dire/rabid in wvw)
p/p
with HGH/ IP / Bunker down
Elix H for heal
ElixS/Rocketboots/Elix gun.

With so many numerous cool downs to manage for might stacking and proactive cleansing it feels very much like dual kits however its super mobile, semi bursty and with stealth, Util. cleansing and 2 stun breaks.

I hate FT and so i prefer to just take rocket boots and its worked. However if a burn nerf is inc then the whole spec will collpase heh.