Guild Wars 2

I don’t think it would be wrong of me to say that turrets are a little underused right now.

One of the issues with slotting turrets for engineers is that it takes up a slot that would normally be used for a stunbreaker, or a kit. The engineer class is unique in that it is largely dictated in playstyle by the utility slots, rather than the mainhand/offhand weapons.

Slotting a turret means to give up 5 skills in a kit right now. Fully supporting a turret build through traits requires a massive investment of 60 trait points (!!) and 5 major trait slots (!!!) for:

• Explosives IX – Accelerant packed turrets
• Inventions III – Metal Plating
• Inventions X – Autotool Installation
• Inventions XII – Rifled Turret Barrels
• Tools V – Deployable Turrets

Even after all that, running turrets in all utility slots and slotting the Healing turret for the heal still leaves the engineer without:

• A reliable condi-cleanse (The upcoming patch may make this point outdated given that Cleansing Burst CD will be reduced to 20 sec)
• A stunbreaker
• A reliable source of mobility – The best form of engineer mobility is only through traited kits at the moment.

Compare this with the Alchemy trait line, where X: Cleaning formula 409 gives a full bar of elixirs multiple condition cleanses, easy access to stunbreakers that are fully supported by traits (Alchemy II), along with access to highly potent defensive and defensive boons through traits and through the elixirs themselves.

Whilst it is clear that the Inventions trait line is intended to support turrets, spreading traits through another 2 lines can be crippling.
In my view, Metal Plating and Autotool Installation should be combined, and Accelerant Packed Turrets moved from the Explosives line into the Inventions line. Rifled Turret Barrels can stay Grandmaster because it is a build-defining trait to take.
This would free up 20 trait points that can be used to shore up other deficiencies in a full turret build.
With the upcoming April patch, Anet has shown newly found willingness to combine and alter traits, as seen in the Warrior’s boon hate changes. Anet should look at doing the same for Engineer traits as well.

Thinking about turrets has also given me ideas to improve upon them as well.

Turrets suffer from multiple issues right now, that hamper their effectiveness in PvE, PvP, and WvW.

• Turrets die to collateral damage too easily right now, even while traited for turret survivability. They do not scale with player vitality or toughness.
• Putting down a turret does not tick down the cooldown until the turret is picked up again, or destroyed/detonated. This further hampers an engineer’s mobility with turrets, and it is crippling to lose a turret to AOE.
• In addition, picking up a turret only reduces its cooldown by 25%. Considering that Rocket and Thumper turret have 50 sec CDs, a 25% CD reduction from full is still quite long
• Turret toolkit abilities are underwhelming for the most part, and do not shore up weaknesses in a turret engineer’s arsenal. They mostly offer damage, which, given the sufficient DPS of emplaced turrets, is hardly required.
• Turret overcharge abilities do not reset the turret attack cooldown. Given that some turrets fire only once every 10 seconds, like the Net Turret, it is entirely possible that turrets are AOE’d down and destroyed before the overcharge goes off.

It is clear that the weaknesses, cooldowns, health, and effects of turrets were balanced around them being semi-permanent entities. The toolkit repairing turrets further reinforces this conclusion.

• But what if turrets were instead balanced around them being fully disposable? *

Let us imagine now the following:

• Placing a turret down begins to tick down the cooldown for the turret. At the end of the cooldown, the emplaced turret self-destructs.
  This change would make AOE damage destroying turrets a lot less crippling than previously. In PvP, this would encourage opponents to destroy turrets as soon as they are placed. This would be fully intended, because damage going to turrets is not going to the engineer.

• Picking up a turret reduces its current cooldown by 50%
  This change is mostly WvW and PvP focused, where smart opponents exist. In addition to the first change, this could result in some clutch moments where the engineer shaves crucial seconds off his cooldowns if the opponent targets the turret. In PvE, this would increase engineer mobility and allow the engineer to set up his turret base in different locations more often.

• Turret overcharges reset the attack timer on the turret, but destroy the turret at the end of the overcharge duration. However, turrets are invulnerable to damage whilst on overcharge.
  This change is the most dramatic one, and in my view the one thing that will make turrets an attractive slot choice. It seems silly, but bear with me for a moment.
  Overcharges making the turret invulnerable would finally eliminate the annoying chance that a turret can be destroyed during overcharge. Resetting the attack timer will also lead to more clutch plays in PvP.
  The self-destruct at the end of overcharge is to balance the fact that turret CD will be ticking down the whole while. It also emphasises the engineer’s class flavour to have their gadgets destroy themselves at the end of giving an enhanced performance.

I like this idea but my biggest problem with turrets are their lack of damage. Even with 3200 power and 50 crit damage they hit for next to nothing. I have made builds around them where they would last for an entire fight but the fights go on way too long compared to other specs I can run with power gear (that have better survivability).

I believe the damage on turrets should be doubled if you spec into them. Its not like the firing rate is high so even with double damage they wont be bursting people down in seconds. It would still put their damage way under phantasms with similar limitations. Phantasms are locked to a target and die with them, while our turrets are locked to an area.

The last thing I want to address is the turret toolkit skills, and overcharge. In my view, turret toolbelt skills are centered around damage, and expose glaring flaws in a turret engineer’s ability to survive. Toolbelt skills should be a nice complement to slotting the skill, not another button to mash for more damage.

Right now, the Healing turret’s Regenerating Mist (F1) is a 60 second CD Water field that applies regeneration.
In my view this should also cleanse a single condition, as 60 seconds for a 3 second water field is simply too long. It would also give turret engineers another source for condition removal.
Given that the upcoming patch will reduce Cleansing Burst’s cooldown to 20 seconds, I have no complaints about its overcharge.

The flame turret’s Throw Napalm is centered around damage. It is strange to me that this does not generate a short-lived Fire combo field around the point of impact, given that the flame turret’s overcharge generates a smoke field instead.
On the Flame Turret’s overcharge, its AOE of 450 can be useful if an enemy is close, but the main reason I haven’t seen many turret bunker engineers is because smart opponents will engage and destroy an emplaced turret engineer from range, safe from pressure.
Making the overcharge destroy projectiles for 3 seconds of its duration will help relieve some of that.

The Rifle turret’s toolbelt ability Surprise shot is pure damage, and a projectile finisher. It does not add depth to the turret and indeed, Static Discharge engineers love it for its short toolbelt CD rather than the turret’s actual emplaced use.
Increasing its cooldown and making it cripple for a short duration (3 sec) would emphasise the turret’s role more.
The Rifle turret’s overcharge could instead be also changed to cripple foes instead of bleeding them, keeping them in range of the turret for longer.

The Rocket turret’s toolbelt skill is once again, pure damage and adds no depth. For a 60 second CD, I would rather that it Dazed foes for 1 second instead. It would add an interrupt at range that the turret engineer lacks.

The rarely taken Thumper turret is the one in the most need of improvement. As a supposed “tanky” turret, the Thumper offers little in the way of threat through damage or CC to encourage enemies to target it. Thankfully, 2 changes will make it a useful skill to slot.
The toolbelt ability Shockwave can keep its 60 second CD, if it were made a stunbreak. With 0 cast time in line with other turret abilities, and the thumper turret’s inherent design intention to be an “anti-melee” turret, making Shockwave break stun will be a change that will encourage turret engineers to slot it.

A secondary effect such as Cripple or Weakness for 5 seconds within its AOE will further emphasise its role also, and fit with the main Thumper turret attack that cripples foes within its AOE.

If the turrets are not mobile at all, at least they should grant passive buffs similar to Warrior banners:

Net turret: chance to immobilize your foes on critical hits.

Thumper turret: grants stability
Rocket turret: increase power
Rifle Turret: increase precision
Flame Turret: remove a condition every 5 seconds

Flame turret would then take away from healing turret and it seems they want more people to use healing turret as a condition cleanse.

Stability would be too powerful in pvp. Maybe pulse 3 seconds of protection with its damage.

YourOwnFear.2743:

I like this idea but my biggest problem with turrets are their lack of damage. Even with 3200 power and 50 crit damage they hit for next to nothing. I have made builds around them where they would last for an entire fight but the fights go on way too long compared to other specs I can run with power gear (that have better survivability).

I believe the damage on turrets should be doubled if you spec into them. Its not like the firing rate is high so even with double damage they wont be bursting people down in seconds. It would still put their damage way under phantasms with similar limitations. Phantasms are locked to a target and die with them, while our turrets are locked to an area.

Rebalancing turret DPS towards them being fully disposable will allow Anet to revise their damage upwards, just like Mesmer Phantasms. In my view, turrets should have enough damage to apply steady sustained pressure, but not so much as to balance their higher (potential) survivability, and their possibility of overcharge.

My proposed changes would still lock them to an area, but having to resummon them on cooldown will encourage a more active playstyle, and in combination with deployable turrets would enable a turret engineer to assault points, not just defend them.

This patch they put the emphasis yet again on turrets as a way to open up more engineer builds.
healing turret this go mainly, last go several other turrets.

This patch they also re-created some traits for other professions, something they never done before.

This patch they did NOT re-create turret traits, even though we been asking for it very loud and clear.

So my conclusion is: they don’t really intend to rework the turret traits anytime soon.

If they do want to change the traits, and I am wrong, than here are my minor suggestions. Mostly aimed at changing the traits with as little effort as possible:

1. either make Accelerant-packed turrets or Deployable turrets a baseline ability for all turrets.
This frees up the need to go into 3 different trait lines just for turrets.

2. Combine Metal Plating and Autotool Installation into one trait. They both serve the same purpose and aren’t strong enough seperate to warrant a trait.

3. Replace Autotool Installation with Riffled turret Barrels as Master trait. This trait isn’t strong enough to be a Grandmaster trait. Flamethrower-Elixir gun get 15% damage from a Master trait too, and turrets already are just a portion of the full engineer damage, so their 15% is even less.

4. Either create a pure awesome sauce Grandmaster trait for turrets… or take the easy way and not force engineers to spend more than 40 points on their turrets itself. Leaving 30 points free for personal preference and buffing either engineers own damage, or the engineers survivability.

My suggestions do not change a lot in terms of what the dev’s want turrets to do.
But they do however, change the distribution of turret traits. Either 20 points in Explosives ot Tools (pick one devs) and 20 points in Inventions would give you all current turret traits.
The remaining 30 points would make sure that turret engineers actually have some choices to spend on Tool kit trait for example, some defences in Alchemy, some crit and conditions and sitting duck in Firearms, or even a support specc with healing bombs…

small final suggestion: to replace the grandmaster trait they could create a new grandmaster trait for gadgets!
This could give each gadget some permanent bonus effect, a bit like what Kit refinement was for kits. But permanent effects, more or less like signets.
Seeing how this would be a Grandmaster trait they could easily make this strong enough to be worth it.

Two flies with one hand… Turrets would get more realistic trait allocation, and gadgets would get a much needed trait of their own.

I have to say that replacing the Grandmaster Inventions trait Rifled Turret Barrels didn’t occur to me, and looking back at Alchemy VII’s Deadly Mixture, it does seem strange that it would only take a Master trait for increases in damage.

If turrets are to stay as they are, balanced around being semi-permanent entities, then a possible Grandmaster trait would be Cooldown reduction of their toolbelt, overcharge, and placement abilities, and an increase to their rate of fire. Turrets are unique skills for the engineer trait wise in that they receive no CDR through traits at all. Even Gadgets can get 20% CDR through Tools III – Speedy Gadgets.

Making the GM trait a CDR trait that also increases turret rate of fire could very well be build defining.

If I make trait suggestions, I try to stay as much within the exisiting system as possible, because I believe that is what the dev’s try to do as well.

It’s great fun and real creative to come up with totally new trait ideas, but frankly: most of the time I doubt the devs are interested in complete overhauls of traits…

Only my suggestion for the gadgets in the end is completely new as a trait. Not as an idea: there is a thread about this very suggestion on the front page.
The reason for this new trait is easy: there simply is no current trait for gadgets except that cooldown.. none at all, so any trait would be a totally new one.

The turret suggestions are all exisitng traits, just better placed and combined.

One remark about turrets having no cooldown reduction:
picking up a turret is exactly that 20% reductionI believe.
But this requires you to move to the turret (deployable turrets directly goes AGAINST this picking up), and it also limits you since you can’t detonate AND still have the cooldown reduction.
So while it is a bad solution in my eyes, I fear it still is THE solution as to why there is no cd trait for turrets.

Absolutely, condensing turret skills is really a must. I would think about using them if I didn’t have to make a janky kitten build to just get the traits right.

The engineer’s utillities have so much potential – especially some of the gadgets. If the dev’s would focus on buffing some of them rather than worrying about how the grenade kit kills pve targets that never move quickly, I think we’d be golden.

I like the idea of the two turret survivability trait being fused into one and adding a GM trait which either gives us the option of making our turrets mobile with increased health and armor, so they follow their Engineers and can survive more hits. Same principle as ranger spirits. They will follow in the arrangement they are set down or arrange with or without Deployable Turrets.

Or

Move down accelerated turrets, make it a GM trait and add a unikittenfect to the turret explosions, making them more desirable in party play.

Healing Turret> Protective Goo: Grant Protection and Swiftness to all nearby allies.
Rifle Turret> Shrapnel Rain: Grant Fury to nearby allies and remove one of the opponents boons.
Flame Turret> Napalm Spray: Grant Might to nearby allies and burn off one of the opponent’s boons.
Thumper Turret> Earthquaker: Grant Stability to nearby allies and knock down opponents.
Net Turret> Discharge: Grant Quickness to nearby allies.
Rocket Turret> Unbalanced Mixture: Exploding the turret causes a giant AoE explosion damaging opponents in a large radius and setting them ablaze.

As someone who has run full turrets since day 1 of headstart, I can say I would honestly be ok with traits saying the same if they gave me a hotkey to force my stupid (I mean that literally. They are dumb. Idiotic. No sense at all) turrets to attach a target of my choosing, including NPCs they normally dont shoot (like.. oh… dragons?).

Let me make my turrets NOT shoot inanimate objects and NOT ignore dragons and I’ll be happy!

Tolmos.8395:

As someone who has run full turrets since day 1 of headstart, I can say I would honestly be ok with traits saying the same if they gave me a hotkey to force my stupid (I mean that literally. They are dumb. Idiotic. No sense at all) turrets to attach a target of my choosing, including NPCs they normally dont shoot (like.. oh… dragons?).

Let me make my turrets NOT shoot inanimate objects and NOT ignore dragons and I’ll be happy!

Speaking as someone who as played the original Guild Wars (Minion Master Necro) through the Factions and Nightfall expansions (didn’t pick up EOTN), I do find it strange that it has been 9 months since launch and yet pet AI does not prioritise called targets.

In GW1, I could call a target for my minions to attack, whilst henchmen would attack my currently attacked target.

It is strange to me that turrets and ranger pets do not inherit this behaviour, instead having their own aggro tables.

jpnova.4572:

I like the idea of the two turret survivability trait being fused into one and adding a GM trait which either gives us the option of making our turrets mobile with increased health and armor, so they follow their Engineers and can survive more hits. Same principle as ranger spirits. They will follow in the arrangement they are set down or arrange with or without Deployable Turrets.

I disagree with the possibility of making turrets mobile as it would defeat their primary design intention, which was to control space. As a semi-permanent entity with a limited attack range, I believe a better Grandmaster trait would have to be one that drastically increases the engineer’s ability to pick up and place down turrets, rather than make them mobile.

How about this?

• Remote Redeployment

The Engineer may select a turret to be recalled from range. The turret is recalled to the engineer as a bundle, which may be placed at the Engineer’s location.

The turret is fully repaired upon recall. Placing the turret again resets the turret overcharge cooldown.

This trait would require a lot of re-coding of turrets, but would finally solve the mobility issues of the turret engineer. I found that it was far too much of a bother to save a turret being attacked. Often a mob would be able to down a turret before I could kill the mob itself, since the toolkit’s repair rate is simply insufficient.

• This trait would allow engineers to save turrets under threat from AOE
• There is inherent synergy (!!) with the trait Deployable Turrets. Need to move your turret, but don’t want to reset your cooldown? Pick it up from far away and throw it where it’s needed
• Resetting overcharge cooldowns is where we begin cooking with gas. This will open up the possibility of engineers assaulting points in sPVP, not just defending them. Pack up your turrets remotely and throw them onto a defended point, overcharged, for maximum lulz.

As far as traits go, it would be:

1. Build defining
2. Open up new playstyles of the turret engineer
3. Finally give engineers a reason to invest 30 points into inventions

All through leveling I wanted to bring a turret (or 2) but never did because of one thing: lack of mobility. They have long cooldowns that make them less user-friendly when open world roaming. Constantly having to pick what survived up to keep the CDs low is annoying and slow. And with them dying often, the CDs are generally the full duration.

It’s the same reason I never brought spirits with my Ranger. Anything that gets dropped & can be targeted and easily destroyed should have a shorter CD. Especially if they don’t follow you.

I played Shaman in WoW (yes, I’m bringing up that game…groans to follow). And while GW2 does just about everything better than WoW, the one thing I liked was the short CDs on frequently dropped totems. Now, WoW had mana as a resource management that kept people from spamming them. So I understand the need for CDs in GW2. But for something that doesn’t move and dies fairly easily, a CD reduction would be nice. Maybe no CD for picked up turrets. Annoying to have to pick em up, but it’s a start.

Having said all that, I can’t speak to specifics regarding turrets because (as I said) I don’t use em. But I’d like to. One thing I have noticed is that they tend to have their traits scattered throughout the trees.

One potential solution I just thought of: let the CD timer start ticking as soon as the turret is placed. Only 1 instance of a turret can exist at a time so dropping it again if already active would destroy the old one. This would allow more turret mobility.

JubeiTM.5763:

If the turrets are not mobile at all, at least they should grant passive buffs similar to Warrior banners:

Net turret: chance to immobilize your foes on critical hits.

Thumper turret: grants stability
Rocket turret: increase power
Rifle Turret: increase precision
Flame Turret: remove a condition every 5 seconds

I really like this idea.

Seras.5702:

One potential solution I just thought of: let the CD timer start ticking as soon as the turret is placed. Only 1 instance of a turret can exist at a time so dropping it again if already active would destroy the old one. This would allow more turret mobility.

It’s funny that you would mention that, because one of my earlier posts mentioned the same thing:

MonMalthias.4763:

What if turrets were instead balanced around them being fully disposable?

Let us imagine now the following:

• Placing a turret down begins to tick down the cooldown for the turret. At the end of the cooldown, the emplaced turret self-destructs.
  This change would make AOE damage destroying turrets a lot less crippling than previously. In PvP, this would encourage opponents to destroy turrets as soon as they are placed. This would be fully intended, because damage going to turrets is not going to the engineer.

• Picking up a turret reduces its current cooldown by 50%
  This change is mostly WvW and PvP focused, where smart opponents exist. In addition to the first change, this could result in some clutch moments where the engineer shaves crucial seconds off his cooldowns if the opponent targets the turret. In PvE, this would increase engineer mobility and allow the engineer to set up his turret base in different locations more often.

• Turret overcharges reset the attack timer on the turret, but destroy the turret at the end of the overcharge duration. However, turrets are invulnerable to damage whilst on overcharge.
  This change is the most dramatic one, and in my view the one thing that will make turrets an attractive slot choice. It seems silly, but bear with me for a moment.
  Overcharges making the turret invulnerable would finally eliminate the annoying chance that a turret can be destroyed during overcharge. Resetting the attack timer will also lead to more clutch plays in PvP.
  The self-destruct at the end of overcharge is to balance the fact that turret CD will be ticking down the whole while. It also emphasises the engineer’s class flavour to have their gadgets destroy themselves at the end of giving an enhanced performance.

Wow, I’d actually forgotten about this thread; I had an eye on it, but it’s been some time.

I’ll preface this by pointing out that, in the year since this thread’s beginning, there’s been two traits added for Turrets, making full Turret investment into a 14-point monstrosity, which simply reinforces the points made.

Anyway, after playing League of Legends (specifically, Heimerdinger, who uses disposable-type Turrets), I’ve come to actually really like this disposable method.
In combination with the proposed ‘no-auto-attack’ variation presented in The Gates Assassin’s thread, this could bring a new level of activity and skill to Turret play, as well as resolving the mobility issue; I’ll admit I’m a bit wary of the ‘overcharges automatically detonate the turret afterward,’ but overall, I think it could open up opportunities to actually improve Turrets.

It’ not hard to made turrets fun, just reduce it’s base health by 33%, cool down by 50%, and cast time by 1/4s

Then it’s more active and less people will complain about how OP it is because they can’t kill it in time

Holy thread necro, batman.

I think it’s certainly interesting to look back upon Turrets as they are now – with how they were viewed back in late 2012-early 2013. The retrospective certainly has quite some significant changes; namely:

• Turret health buffs
• Various improvements to Turret toolbelt skills – Rocket, Thump → Rumble stunbreak, Throw Napalm Fire Field, etc.
• Healing Turret’s Cleansing Burst changes turning it from trash to meta for every Engi build
• The biggest change being a change to Turret AI that improves their responsiveness
• APT moved from Explosives Master to Adept
• 2 new Turret GM Traits

Put into that kind of context, it’s clear that Anet has wanted Engineers to want to pick up Turrets; if only for Healing Turret heal. I think that over time Engineers have come to use them and given the existence of Turret builds in lower level PVP where they become the ultimate 1v1 stunlocker build I think one could even argue that some of the buffs like APT to Adept were ultimately un-necessary.

Having run 2 Turret builds, sometimes even 3 Turret builds in the past I’ve switched back to Kits in the end because it’s really hard to justify all those losses in mobility and general utility to gain those powerful CC abilities.

I think Turrets as they are now are extremely difficult to justify buffing in any way short of taking their Autoattack away, to be honest. The Net Turret/Rocket Turret overcharge wombo combo is already 6 seconds of overlapping stunlock (more if Rifle Skills and APT are comboed with it) and until this kind of Overcharge mechanic changes I foresee the Turret Engineer being as passive as the worst AI builds; if not even more toxic due to huge CC potential.

The Elementalist Summon and Guardian Spirit Weapon changes show that Anet is willing to forge onwards regarding summons; finally giving players the ability to actually control summon ability activation.

I’d like for Turret Overcharges to get the same treatment of skill queue reset; then the Overcharge durations reduced to firing only 2 overcharged attacks as a beginner’s step towards full control; with the ultimate step being reworking Overcharge into a Chain skill on the Toolbelt and Turret “autoattacks” as a chain skill on placement. By then Turrets could possibly be accepted as a legitimately active playstyle.

From there, changes to Traits are then necessary to emphasise summon control and positioning over passive, bunkery play. My mention of a Draw Spirit equivalent obtainable through traits to combo with Deployable Turrets last year, along with other changes like decreased Turret health for lower cooldowns, would do much to make the build have an overall higher skill floor and therefore; greater potential reward in damage or utility. Letting the Engineer save dying Turrets by summoning them to the Engineer’s position would add a lot of mobility without having to introduce a turret movement mechanic; retain counterplay and most importantly emphasise a skill floor.

I always wanted there to be two different grandmaster traits that summarize the two different types of turret play.

-One trait could encourage maintaining turrets. Letting their functionality revolve around high Turret Life spans and player support at the cost of damage. This trait would generally be take in PvE as this trait would allow turrets to survive in PvE longer and grant boons or skills that are defensive in nature.

-Another trait would encourage using disposable Turrets that are designed for Quick Skirmishes that favor control/pressure with shorter cooldowns at the cost of the turrets life and any defensive mechanics. These turrets would be deployed quickly for special purposes.

Ideally these traits would give each turret two different functions. However these traits need to work against each other so that they would be unappealing to take together.

Perhaps something like:
Turret Grid: Your Turrets now link with other turrets you control dividing damage they receive amongst other active turrets. In addition Overcharging Turrets also grants nearby allies Aegis. However All Turret cool downs are increased by 20%.

Disposable Turrets: Your Turrets Overcharge is reduced by 20%. In addition when a Turret is destroyed it reduces the cool down of all (stowed) turrets by 20%. However Overcharging Turrets now costs 45% of the turrets health.

Wolf.5816:

I always wanted there to be two different grandmaster traits that summarize the two different types of turret play.

-One trait could encourage maintaining turrets. Letting their functionality revolve around high Turret Life spans and player support at the cost of damage. This trait would generally be take in PvE as this trait would allow turrets to survive in PvE longer and grant boons or skills that are defensive in nature.

-Another trait would encourage using disposable Turrets that are designed for Quick Skirmishes that favor control/pressure with shorter cooldowns at the cost of the turrets life and any defensive mechanics. These turrets would be deployed quickly for special purposes.

Ideally these traits would give each turret two different functions. However these traits need to work against each other so that they would be unappealing to take together.

Perhaps something like:
Turret Grid: Your Turrets now link with other turrets you control dividing damage they receive amongst other active turrets. In addition Overcharging Turrets also grants nearby allies Aegis. However All Turret cool downs are increased by 20%.

I think this is a great idea, as it really differentiates turrets into two new styles of play; one that’s closer to Mesmer illusion shatters, and one that’s a little more defensive.

Regarding Turret Grid, Turrets are already tanky enough as it is, with many classes that lack strong 900+ range having a lot of trouble even on Power builds as closing the distance invites the stunlock combos. It’s also entirely passive, encouraging Engineer to simply place his turret nest and wait. The damage division also works against focusing one turret to death, which further makes the build a hard counter to single target hard hitters.

So, presuming that Turrets are destroyed after Overcharge (and Overcharge over-riding skill queue) as a baseline, with players controlling the Turret attacks, we then can create a new trait that lets Engineer save Turrets under threat in a different way:

Experimental Teleportal Beacons

• Your Turret Overcharge skills no longer destroy the Turret.
• Turret cooldowns increased by 20%
• Overcharging a Turret now Teleports the Turret to your current position. (1000 range)
• The Turret is fully repaired after Teleporting. The Turret’s attack skill goes on cooldown. (for counterplay reasons; but can be 50% raw cooldown instead)

The intended design of the trait is to still encourage Turret nesting, but require a closer management of Turrets against foes. In addition, the Draw Spirit effect has counterplay in that foes can threaten Turrets with damage to force the port, then lay down AOE on the Engineer’s (and now Turret’s) position. On the other hand, the Engineer can consolidate its power into one smaller area – both Counterplay and counter-counterplay inherent in the design.

Wolf.5816:

Disposable Turrets: Your Turrets Overcharge is reduced by 20%. In addition when a Turret is destroyed it reduces the cool down of all (stowed) turrets by 20%. However Overcharging Turrets now costs 45% of the turrets health.

I like the intention of this trait overall; encouraging an almost Shatter-mesmer like playstyle of constant clone (Turret) generation and destruction. A more refined implementation:

• When a Turret is destroyed, reduce the cooldown of stowed Turrets by 33%
• Turrets may not be picked up upon being Overcharged.
• Turrets have additional effects in an area when overcharged, but detonate immediately on overcharge ending:
  • Rifle Turret – Ballistic Whirligig: Overcharge causes Rifle Turret to whirl rapidly, firing shots in all directions and damaging foes for X amount each second in a 240 radius. Combo Finisher: Whirl
  • Flame Turret: Thermobaric Backdraft: Overcharge causes Flame Turret to generate a Smoke Field, Blinding foes for 2 seconds per 2 second pulse. At its end, Flame Turret explodes, dealing damage, burning foes in an area, and knocking foes down in an area for 1 second
  • Rocket Turret: Missile Barrage: Target an area for Overcharge. Rocket Turret fires a stream of 10 missiles that rain down in an area. Rockets inflict Daze for 1 second and inflict 2 stacks of Vulnerability for 5 seconds. Rockets fired in this way are 100% Projectile combo finishers.
  • Thumper Turret: Call of the Wurm: Overcharge causes Thumper Turret to thump out a steady beat, damaging foes in the area for X damage every second and causing cripple. After 4 seconds, a great Wurm is called to the surface, causing massive damage to a single foe on emergence.
  • Net Turret: Smart glue filament dispenser: Target an area for Overcharge. (600 range, 240 radius. Net Turret spits immobilising glue in an area. Foes affected are Immobilised for 1 second every 2 seconds. Allies affected gain Stability for 1 second every 2 seconds.

This thread is practically bloated with creativity. I like it.

I’m glad the principle behind my concept was understood, and in retrospect I see I forgot to add to Turret Grid that all turret damage is reduced to players by 25%.

This way, the damage reduction could be mitigated by taking the existing trait Rifled Turrets to only a 10% damage reduction and a heavy trait investment in a more intended (defensive) trait line. If the particular player wished to truly optimize their long lasting turrets.

The idea here is trying to make the players who want to maintain turrets have to sacrifice the raw damage/sustain turrets currently bring at the base line. (Not that their current damage is legendary) but they shouldn’t be any near as potent if given the ability to survive and act more as support totems. Someone who plays turrets this way should feel a great loss when losing one of their Turrets.

As apposed to the Disposable Turret Engineer who would use their turrets more for sudden utility and temporary pressure.

Wolf.5816:

This thread is practically bloated with creativity. I like it.

I’m glad the principle behind my concept was understood, and in retrospect I see I forgot to add to Turret Grid that all turret damage is reduced to players by 25%.

This way, the damage reduction could be mitigated by taking the existing trait Rifled Turrets to only a 10% damage reduction and a heavy trait investment in a more intended (defensive) trait line. If the particular player wished to truly optimize their long lasting turrets.

The idea here is trying to make the players who want to maintain turrets have to sacrifice the raw damage/sustain turrets currently bring at the base line. (Not that their current damage is legendary) but they shouldn’t be any near as potent if given the ability to survive and act more as support totems. Someone who plays turrets this way should feel a great loss when losing one of their Turrets.

As apposed to the Disposable Turret Engineer who would use their turrets more for sudden utility and temporary pressure.

Right, because that was the intent of my thread late 2012 – early last year; a way to make Engineers be able to play Turrets in another distinctive way than simply putting them down and camping an area.

I believe that there are far too few traits in the game at the moment that emphasise augmentation over differentiation and balance through generation of apex choices and apex predators is suffering as a result. The worst excesses of the current balance approach can be reflected in Elementalist being pigeonholed into 0/0/10/30/30 since last year in any competitive aspect; with only Fresh Air generating 1 single new build that was predicated on zero counterplay quartercast or instant cast burst damage.

The same can be said of Turrets that have run the same exact trait setup since launch and only just now differentiating due to the emergence of new Turret GM traits – yet their stunlock potential is still as prevalent and just as toxic since launch.

The aim of this thread was not only to create new ways to play Turret builds, but new ways to counterplay them as well; in the end creating a healthier, more diverse gameplay possibility for Engineer.

they definitely need more cleanses with the removal of the free heal from kit refinement it’s pretty much absolutely necessary to get 3 points into elixirs for any build anymore.

I’ve spoke at length about how turrets are nerfed to oblivion and uselessness because for some reason someone over there actually thinks it’s an advantage. I’ve compared the turrets to traps on ranger and certain kinds of summons from sigils and from the necro pet builds. our cooldowns do not correctly reflect the usefulness (or lack thereof) of these skills and are not on par with those similar skills in other classes.

The cooldowns thing for example is entirely too long when we look at comparable AOE skills in other classes having a 6-8second cooldown. When I pickup my thumper turret I expect it to have a short cooldown like this because A: it wasn’t destroyed and B: it was turned off by me. Meanwhile my ranger can popout fire trap after fire trap with better dps yet the skills cooldown on that without any traits to enhance them is exceedingly low.

Just like companies have been doing to healers for years now, Engineers are punished for their diversity, it’s not right and they need to have a serious sitdown hashout to make the Engineer skills on part with other classes in this manner, we shouldn’t have to pay for being different.

Mines are the same problem, they scatter all over the place there is no rhyme or reason, and then their trigger zones are so tiny mobs dance all over them often. It’s time for a change folks.

A few points:

they definitely need more cleanses with the removal of the free heal from kit refinement it’s pretty much absolutely necessary to get 3 points into elixirs for any build anymore.

• All builds (not classes!) should have their weaknesses, and Triple or Quad turret Engineer should definitely have one, considering that Turrets themselves are immune to Conditions. Also, the statement that people need Transmute to be viable is hyperbolic.

tigirius.9014:

I’ve spoke at length about how turrets are nerfed to oblivion and uselessness because for some reason someone over there actually thinks it’s an advantage. I’ve compared the turrets to traps on ranger and certain kinds of summons from sigils and from the necro pet builds. our cooldowns do not correctly reflect the usefulness (or lack thereof) of these skills and are not on par with those similar skills in other classes.

• First off, if you’ve actually been playing the game and following the updates, Turrets have not been nerfed. In fact, exactly the opposite. Look a few posts above on my retrospective on Turrets since late 2012 and you will see that Turrets are pretty kitten strong right now; especially after the April 2014 patch that not only buffed Turret Nest engineers (Experimental Turrets) but also Turret Death engineers (Fortified Turrets)

• In Fact if you’ve played a round of Hotjoin or Soloqueue then you’ve most likely seen a Triple or Quad Turret Engi being extremely annoying at Far point on the enemy team, or pushing to Home point and trying to nest up there. Without a Staff Ele or Grenade Engineer, they are extremely difficult to shift.

tigirius.9014:

The cooldowns thing for example is entirely too long when we look at comparable AOE skills in other classes having a 6-8second cooldown. When I pickup my thumper turret I expect it to have a short cooldown like this because A: it wasn’t destroyed and B: it was turned off by me. Meanwhile my ranger can popout fire trap after fire trap with better dps yet the skills cooldown on that without any traits to enhance them is exceedingly low.

• With regards to cooldowns, 10 seconds were taken off Thumper Turret (from 60) and Rocket Turret; whilst Rifle Turret was 30 seconds CD at launch. If you think our cooldowns for Turrets are long, try Necro MM where the average cooldown is 30+ seconds – similar to Turret Engi

• Why are you comparing Traps to Turrets? What kind of non-sequitur is this when the closest equivalent is clearly Ranger Spirits?

tigirius.9014:

Just like companies have been doing to healers for years now, Engineers are punished for their diversity, it’s not right and they need to have a serious sitdown hashout to make the Engineer skills on part with other classes in this manner, we shouldn’t have to pay for being different.

• Are you even playing the same game? Engineer has roles in all 3 arenas of the game right now:
  • In PvE, 30 30 0 0 10 fulfils the role of Vulnerability stacking. Engineer has also been tested (and confirmed) by the likes of Guanglai Kangyi and Nike of DnT to be one of the highest DPS outputs in game, second only to Lightning Hammer ultra-glass Ele, and Engineer running Bomb/Nade has less tradeoffs.
  • In WvW, Engineers are obnoxious roamers, especially with Perplexity Rune and Dire. With the inflated damage stats of WvW, even Power Engineers are strong in roaming, popping insane burst damage enough to body Soldier’s Ascended Warriors. In the zerg, Grenades are king condition applicators, whilst BK Engineer stacking some Toughness gear and supported by Stability can join the hammertrain with the rest of Warrior and Guardian
  • In PvP, both Condi (Rabid Grenade/TK or BK) or hybrid (Celestial Rifle TK/GK) are supremely viable builds and featured eminently both in the Tournament of Legends recently, and as a regular fixture for many teams in the Mistpedia league in both NA and EU.

Really the only thing missing for Engineers right now is a truly viable Gadget build, and to raise the skill floor and skill ceiling of Turret builds. That’s it. For everything else, only the Traits need addressing, but that’s the same across all classes.

tigirius.9014:

Mines are the same problem, they scatter all over the place there is no rhyme or reason, and then their trigger zones are so tiny mobs dance all over them often. It’s time for a change folks.

What do Mines have to do in a Turret Thread? If anything? At all?

Post some sensible Turret suggestions, or leave feedback on mine or anybody else’s suggestions, or take your hyperbole elsewhere.