Guild Wars 2

Every engineer that uses a pistol grabs 10 points in Explosives for the burn on crit trait.
Every engineer that goes for condition damage generally has a very high crit chance, whether you go glass cannon (power, precision, condi) or more defensive (precision, toughness, condi).
Every engineer, when built right with the proper runes, will generally have all four conditions up on a target most of the time WITHOUT the use of blowtorch.
Burn damage does not stack in intensity, but in duration. Once you get a nice duration on your burn through your crit proc you generally do not need to use blowtorch at all.

It’s time to give the engineers something useful when they sacrifice so much to use an offhand pistol (and no glue shot, while useful, should never be a reason to not go shield with its daze, blast finisher, stun and reflect).

My idea is to buff poison dart volley, give it a longer cooldown, and make it the number four skill for offhand pistol. Then, give us a ranged shot for pistol shot 2 and have it apply both a bleed and a burn, to help facilitate condition stacking.

This way, P/S has three conditions (burn, bleed, confusion) and P/P has four (burn, bleed, confusion and poison). Instead of P/S having the ability to apply four conditions while STILL having access to a blast finisher, a daze, a reflect, and a stun.

There needs to be more incentive to go P/P other than looks, because right now, there is no reason to go P/P over P/S.

If you are getting 100% burn up time with 10 in explosives, why are you using p offhand?

When I go p/p I don’t take that trait. In fact, I pretty much never take that trait at all. its single target. Blowtorch is aoe, and most p/p skills are aoe.

blow torch also has a nice direct damage component.

Glueshot is fantastic.

When did I ever say I’m using pistol offhand?
After realizing that you can get 100 percent uptime on burn with p/s is when I switched, and that is the point of this post.
There needs to be more incentive to use p/p over p/s other than glue shot.

Oh, and sorry for the double post, but the trait is NOT single target with explosive shot. The bullets can apply the burn to every mob they hit with explosive shot and poison dart volley when they crit.
Most of your AoE damage comes from explosive shot and poison dart volley, NOT blowtorch. In fact, I’d go as far to say that over time static shot does more aoe damage over time than blowtorch, but I may be stretching it there.

Oh, and one last thing, you said most p/p skills are AoE.

ALL p/p skills are AoE. Static shot hits multiple targets, and by definition that could be considered AoE.

pdv is only really aoe with coated bullets. I dont really consider missing your primary target and hitting another aoe.

Incendiary powder is single target. There is an internal cooldown. At any given time, 1 and only 1 target can be burning by it. (well, +duration probably exceeds that cooldown) Any target hit by the aoe attack can be burned yes.

Explosive shot is
.324 power scaling, .5s cast, 2s bleed. Bleeds scale at .05 cond damage.
PDV is .37 power scaling, kitten, 1.75s cast. 1.85 p over duration. 10s CD . 2s poisonx5, 10s poison. .1 cond scaling.
Blowtorch is .305 power scaling, 3 hits, .5s cast. .915 p 15s CD 2s burnx3 6s burn .25 cond scaling.

An aoe 6s burn will be significantly more damage then a bleed or poison, neither of which is actually aoe. With coated bullets, pdv does become aoe in a similar aoe cone as blowtorch. Explosive shots direct bleed is piercing, but not conal.
All 3 will apply the 5 point firearms bleed on crit aoe. Explosive shot .5s aoe, pdv x5 over 1.75s, and blowtorch 3 hits in .5s.

Blowtorches .915 + 6s burn applied in .5s is significantly higher then any other p/p weapon in that time.

Regarding single target, a 6 second burn deals the same damage as someone applying three two second burns; the condition stacks in duration not intensity.

Regarding AoE, coated bullets with explosive shot and poison dart volley is more than enough. Taking the off hand pistol for blowtorch to add on top of that is not worth the sacrifice to all of the utility and benefit you get from a shield.

Casia.4281:

pdv is only really aoe with coated bullets. I dont really consider missing your primary target and hitting another aoe.

What pistol build does not take coated bullets?

If there is a problem with pistols its not blowtorch.

The problem with pistols is:
1. condition damage itself has problems.
2. coated bullets only effects 2 skills, and even them marginally. It is not remotely as powerful as h.g.h, grenadier, or juggernaut.
3. poison dart volley doesn’t work like other volleys. its effective range due to the spread, is 400. this makes its piercing with coated bullets pretty terrible as well. Since you can’t line up targets and pierce your first target, to hit 2 or more with PDV. You can only line up 1 and point blank and hit a second target 2-3 times out of the 5, and maybe a third once. This ties into the coated bullets statement. the spread on PDV makes coated bullets kindof terrible for PDV.
4. there are no utility skills that would compliment p/p in a wvw setting. The vast majority of engi skills are melee. Turrets are mostly melee. Gadgets are mostly single target and melee. Wrench, bombs, flamethrower, elixir gun. Flamethowers old vacuum, used to be able to set up a weapon swap back to p/p and glueshot in melee. p/p in wvw would need reflects, pulls, stability, evades, etc. options to get into combat, get out, or pull others to you. slick shoes and elixir S are the best options in that regard. neither are that great.

This p/p remake is just wrong… Poison dart volley is my spammable single target attack, yet with piercing shots works nice too. I’d never put 10 points in explosives just for random burn when I have pretty strong blowtorch, at cooldown of 12 seconds (traited). Also I see no reason to put bleeding in your new pistol #2, we have bleed just on basic attacks, enough. Even if it’s weak, it’s matter of buffing our auto-attack, not changing the whole weapon to burn more often. If bleed duration would be increased by 1 second we could stack enough bleeding to make it deal real dmg

There is a reason why poisoning skill has cooldown of 10 seconds and burning one – 15 seconds. Condition damage scales much better with burn, so it’s obvious that burn becomes rarer condition. Also by picking shield, you’re choosing strong defensive/cc option at the cost of highest dmg skill, that’s fair enough. While using shield (in PvP/WvW) I prefer to have AoE poison over burn, for the healing debuff

Casia.4281:

If there is a problem with pistols its not blowtorch.

The problem with pistols is:
1. condition damage itself has problems.
2. coated bullets only effects 2 skills, and even them marginally. It is not remotely as powerful as h.g.h, grenadier, or juggernaut.
3. poison dart volley doesn’t work like other volleys. its effective range due to the spread, is 400. this makes its piercing with coated bullets pretty terrible as well. Since you can’t line up targets and pierce your first target, to hit 2 or more with PDV. You can only line up 1 and point blank and hit a second target 2-3 times out of the 5, and maybe a third once. This ties into the coated bullets statement. the spread on PDV makes coated bullets kindof terrible for PDV.
4. there are no utility skills that would compliment p/p in a wvw setting. The vast majority of engi skills are melee. Turrets are mostly melee. Gadgets are mostly single target and melee. Wrench, bombs, flamethrower, elixir gun. Flamethowers old vacuum, used to be able to set up a weapon swap back to p/p and glueshot in melee. p/p in wvw would need reflects, pulls, stability, evades, etc. options to get into combat, get out, or pull others to you. slick shoes and elixir S are the best options in that regard. neither are that great.

I love P/P (with a mix of + condition/precision/toughness/vitality/power) for WvW. I can pretty much win any 1v1 with certainty (including vs the other engineers I see, which are all rifle or grenade builds). I can take camps solo, and it’s great for zerging. Mid range burst/mid term aoe is fantastic, and 1v3s are possible if they’re noobs and clump up.

In zergs, move to the front of the pack, glue shot, elixer b, unload, down/finish a few people, and elixer s the hell out. Throw in a dash of the elixer s toolbelt skill (grants 4s aoe stability or stealth) when needed.

Flamethrower is a vital part of the build as well, especially for smaller skirmishes. Incindiary ammo, air blast, napalm, and smoke vent are all clutch.

Would shield be better? Maybe in skilled hands, but I suck with it. P/P is absolutely viable for WvW, though.

You could take empowering adrenaline for a damage boost, or exploit weakness for extra control on fleeing opponents instead.

Or you could dump the ten points somewhere else.

Arkimedes.1259:

I love P/P (with a mix of + condition/precision/toughness/vitality/power) for WvW. I can pretty much win any 1v1 with certainty (including vs the other engineers I see, which are all rifle or grenade builds). I can take camps solo, and it’s great for zerging. Mid range burst/mid term aoe is fantastic, and 1v3s are possible if they’re noobs and clump up.

Can you share your build please? I’m always trying out new dual pistol builds, I have yet to find one that I like for WvW.

I find a good p/p hard to really lock down. Again, cross purposes and many utility skills being awful.
p/p, elixir H, elixir gun, elixir B, elixir R, supply drop.

30 point in firearms. 5% extra damage to bleeding targets. this is only to the direct damage portion. Due to the split in damage, its hard to justify for that. Coated bullets already talked about.

so, 20 in firearms. the 5 point firearms trait is terrific. 10- hair trigger. 20-fire forged trigger. why not +ranged? Glueshot/pdv/blowtorch do not gain from it. In order to make p/p work, you need to be within 500 range. so that extra +100 on static, and explosive shot is pointless. (only really useful on static, where it is actually good at least.)
30 alch. Because alch and elixirs are the only utility skills that arent awful, and the only traits that are also reliable. h.g.h. and 409 are a must. 10 point. self regulating for elixir s, fast acting for 20% cdr on elixirs, or protection injection are all good.
20 tools. speedy kits, kit refinement.

Crit damage works with your firearm and p/p crit well. HGH is going to give you free power AND condition damage for that crit, and pistol/elixir conditions.
at 25% life, you get recharge on toolbelt skills. This means you will have elixir R up when you are about to go down every time. And can use it prior to almost dieing to give might, and pulse condition cleanse. Speedy kits gives you swiftness spam, and kit refinement+elixir gun gives that free super elixir. which is raid utility. Great on points, and doors.

Runes of the centaur. (its op.)
Gear. Crit/toughness primary. Knights. Yes, NOT condition. Condition damage is terrible. P/p needs some survival. and power for damage, after that crit% and damage.

Options. Ditching elixir gun. E-gun has a lot of raid utility, so I do recommend it. Also its scales with very similar stats as p/p. (Fumigate is terrible, dont use that. But acid bomb is HIGH damage, and an escape. Super elixir is a strong heal, and aoe cond removal. F does more damage then static shot, and 1 does more damage then explosive shot)
Swap it for elixir S if you want. The stealth/stability does have use. swap fireforged for whatever as well.
20 in inventions instead of tools. regen and heal recharge is nice. Also more toughness and some +healing, esp if you are still using the elixir gun. Cloaking device, elite supplies, and power shoes are all good options.

Cyferwolf.1089:

Arkimedes.1259:

I love P/P (with a mix of + condition/precision/toughness/vitality/power) for WvW. I can pretty much win any 1v1 with certainty (including vs the other engineers I see, which are all rifle or grenade builds). I can take camps solo, and it’s great for zerging. Mid range burst/mid term aoe is fantastic, and 1v3s are possible if they’re noobs and clump up.

Can you share your build please? I’m always trying out new dual pistol builds, I have yet to find one that I like for WvW.

All the build calculators I’ve found are for sPvP, so I’ll just provide a bit more info than I did earlier. I’m probably nowhere near min/maxed, but this seems to be a sweet spot for my play style.

6: prayer to dwayna
7: elixer b
8: elixer s
9: flamethrower/grenade kit
10: supply drop

Power: 1719
Precision: 1451
Toughness: 1158
Vitality: 1391
Condition: 1525

(using 6/6 superior runes of the undead and 2 +5% dmg sigils)

30 explosives:
1. shrapnel (6% chance to bleed)
2. explosive powder (33% chance to burn for 2s on crits)
3. grenadier (throw an extra grenade/throw grenades 25% farther) <— I just leave this even when I have the flamethrower, but it’s obviously worthless then. The utility provided when assaulting forts or messing around underwater makes up for it IMO.

30 firearms:
1. precise sights (50% chance to apply vulnerability on crits)
2. hair trigger (pistol skills recharge 20% faster)
3. coated bullets (pistol shots pierce)

10 tools:
1. speedy kits (5s swiftness on kit switch. 5s cooldown) <—perma swiftness ftw in WvW

I keep the flamethrower out by default and switch to grenades when the situation arises. Flamethrower can also be nice around forts, though — the default attack goes through doors.

The build leans more toward glass cannon than bunker build, but I think the utility skills provide ample survivability. The blinds on static shot and air vent, the knock back on air blast, the 2 second stun on supply crate, the 3 second evade on elixer s, and the possible 4 second stealth on the elixer s toolbelt skill can keep you alive with just a sliver of health for quite a while. A lot of the build depends on timing, though, so it took a while for me to not suck. Popping elixer b at the right time is sometimes enough to win fights on its own. Amplified burst + 10s retaliation is fun.

My default opening is to charge the opponent, fire static shot, wait til he misses, pop elixer b, blow torch, poison dart volley, and then incendiary ammo. Mix in healing/utility skills/auto fire as needed. After incendiary ammo, I’m usually in melee range switching to flamethrower to plop down the short range aoe blind, which is shortly followed by dropping napalm and the air blast knockback. Then I switch back to pistol, shooting through the fire for the burning combo and going to round 2 of pistol burst, if necessary.

Thieves usually require a bit more of a defensive strategy, but they drop very quickly. Hitting them with a supply crate drop is pretty much GG, but after their burst nerf, they’re not too bad even without that.

I pretty much described my zerg playstyle in my previous post — hang out in the middle of the zerg taking weak-ish pot shots with auto fire until you find an opening. Then run in, unload, finished downed players, etc, pop elixer s, get the speedy kits swiftness buff, and high tail out. You’re tough enough to take a few hits, but you’ll go down under focused fire without dodge/evade, so knowing when to get out is important :P When defending forts, I feel confident enough to jump down, skirmish a while in front of the door, and then retreat with elixer s.

Anyway, I love it, but your mileage may vary.

It would be more usefull if you gave your actual crit chance and hit points, then just putting up precisions and vitality. A good number of folks are not going to know the conversion rate, and that will limit assistance.

Offhand pistol is bad compared to shield or rifle. Don’t think anyone who has played the class for any length of time disagrees.

coglin.1496:

It would be more usefull if you gave your actual crit chance and hit points, then just putting up precisions and vitality. A good number of folks are not going to know the conversion rate, and that will limit assistance.

29% crit
18552 health
2,222 armor

Yukishiro.8792:

Offhand pistol is bad compared to shield or rifle. Don’t think anyone who has played the class for any length of time disagrees.

I’ve played the class as my main since launch. I don’t really sPvP too much, but for WvW, I find P/P better than both P/S and R for my playstyle.

I find P/S to be a bit lacking in dmg and that the utility provided by the shield is redundant with the rest of my build.

I find rifle/grenade dmg too easy to avoid.

Pistol offhand gives you one questionable damage skill that is largely redundant with typical condition specs which don’t have that much trouble keeping burning up and one surprisingly long CD rather ineffective control skill.

Shield gives you block, daze, stun and reflect. Isn’t hard to see which of those two is going to be more useful most of the time.

Shield sounds great on paper, especially when you don’t bring cooldowns into the discussion. My experience dictates otherwise, though.

Blowtorch: 12s cooldown | ~850 direct dmg per target, 2s+ burn per target
Glue Shot: 24s cooldown | 1.25s immobilize, 1.25s area cripple for 5s

Magnetic Shield: 30s cooldown | 3s reflect, self rooting | part 2: ~175 direct dmg, knockback
Static Shield: 40s cooldown | up to 2s of block/stun | part 2: ~300 direct dmg, 2s daze (if you get a double hit)

1. I can get 2.5 blowtorches per static shield
2. Glue Shot, the “surprisingly long CD” control skill is still ~half as short of a CD as static shield.
3. My utility skills, which I’d use with or without an offhand shield, handle all of the utility a shield provides.

The choice isn’t as clear cut as you make it, especially when you factor in that blowtorch is conal. If you can reliably keep up burn on 3 enemies to the point that you don’t want an on-demand 2.5s burn, props. I can’t.

Anyway, I don’t see other P/anything engineers in WvW. I like to imagine the rifle engineers I solo going “wtf just happened?” though.

If you can reliably keep 3 targets burning in PVP using blowtorch, props. I can’t. I would be dead very quickly. And if I were looking for AOE damage I would switch to something that is actually better at that.

In my experience blowtorch is just badly designed. With a pistol condition build it is both awkward and unnessecary vs a single opponent to be trying to close to melee to use it. In an aoe situation it alone isn’t enough to make you want to get close to 3+ enemies and if you have piercing shots it’s probably worse dps than just spamming 1 from 900-1200 range instead if you’d got 3 targets to ping off.

I’d much rather be able to use shield 4 and 5 to mitigate or reflect 10kish damage than have to try to get up close to hit someone with blowtorch for only marginally more damage than I was already dealing from range.

I’d like to see it changed to a 900 range attack that gets a bonus based on how many conditions are on the target. Make it something like:

300 damage, 900 range, 120 radius
IF target bleeding: add 3 stacks of bleed (6 second duration)
IF target burning: add 6 seconds of burning
IF target confused: add 3 stacks of confusion (6 second duration)

It seems to me the tradeoff should be between survivability with shield and enhanced condition-based DPS with pistol. The problem is right now blowtorch just doesn’t provide all that much of a DPS boost unless you arn’t traited or utilitied to be able to burn using other means, and it requires you to close to melee which doesn’t really fit with the design of the build.

I can see what they were thinking when they designed the skill…give engi access to burning through P/P. I have a feeling they designed it before they designed traits and utilities though, which give less awkward acecss to burning and radically diminish the value of blowtorch.

Yuki is right, and I’m not just saying that because he agrees with me.

I will say it again and again, blowtorch is not enough to justify taking offhand pistol over shield.

10/30/0/30/0 with Pistol/Shield gives similar DPS than a P/P specced the same.

Casia, one question. You don’t take 10 in explosives with P/P, where exactly do you spend those 10 points then that increase your DPS by so much you can sacrifice not taking a blast finisher, a reflect, a stun and a daze?

10 in tools.
10% crit damage(long duration fury, and 50-60% base with crit gear like you should with a p/p build), 10% cd on toolbelt, speedy kits for perma swiftness, toobelt recharge on 25% life, for elixir R always being up to self rez.

immobalize+cripple on glue shot is stronger then pointblank stun/reflect.
We are talking wvw. if you are stuck in one place, you can just be avoided. And you can’t advance on a point, while holding shield reflect. (block you can)

supply drop is a blast finisher.

I would likely quit playing my 80 engineer if they changed my offhand pistol skills, except maybe to add more range to #4

I hear ya Talomos. I use off hand shield, myself. That said, it does get old having a new thread from a different clown everyday proclaiming how certain skills and utilities need to change. They do not care if it would hose the rest of us.

Blowtorch is awesome… it makes pistols better at setting things on fire than the freaking flamethrower. I don’t really like glue-shot that much but there’s not exactly anything wrong with it, it’s just got the short stick between the various snares the engineer has.

Casia.4281:

10 in tools.
10% crit damage(long duration fury, and 50-60% base with crit gear like you should with a p/p build), 10% cd on toolbelt, speedy kits for perma swiftness, toobelt recharge on 25% life, for elixir R always being up to self rez.

immobalize+cripple on glue shot is stronger then pointblank stun/reflect.
We are talking wvw. if you are stuck in one place, you can just be avoided. And you can’t advance on a point, while holding shield reflect. (block you can)

supply drop is a blast finisher.

Saying supply drop is a blast finisher is a cheap cop out. I don’t see many engineers wasting supply drop on a fire field just to get might stacks when they could of saved it for a more opportune moment; like maybe as a huge AoE stun.

Like yuki said, how long are you gonna survive against a zerg when you saunter up to 600 range just to pop your blowtorch? How often do you do this? Be honest with your answer please.

You will survive more running from a zerg with reflect than with glue shot. I’d rather reflect a net shot then toss out glue shot.

How much damage do you think 10 percent crit damage adds to your pistol crits? I’ll give you a hint. Roughly 36 extra damage. You get similar output with 100 extra power, which is what you would get when you place 10 in explosives. Have you ever dropped super elixir then comboed it into an aoe heal with the shields 30 second cd blast finisher. Well you can do that with P/S. P/P doesn’t have options like that.

Look at the abilities, look at what they do, P/P is not worth it over P/S and that needs to change.

Knight’s isn’t that bad (never tried those runes though). The toughness is pretty obvious, it just lets you take harder hits (since conditions aren’t too bad on an engineer already I don’t mind the lack of vitality so much, plus I usually have something in that line for elixirs anyway). Power gives you some direct damage as well, which is never exactly terrible to have, plus it’s handy when you’re shooting an object or someone who is really good at condition removal. Precision gives you more damage via critical hits, and better application of any on-crit sigils plus the traits (bleed, burn, swift, etc). Then condition damage itself you’ll get via the trait line on the way to range/recharge/condition options (in my case also runes).

You don’t actually have to maximize one approach at the expense of everything else if you don’t want to. Especially with something like coated bullets… if you find you’re not actually shooting through multiple targets much anyway, you might well get more use out of something else.

LameFox.6349:

Especially with something like coated bullets… if you find you’re not actually shooting through multiple targets much anyway, you might well get more use out of something else.

You can hit a lone target twice with explosive shot and coated bullets as long as you are at max range. If you don’t believe me go to a training dummy, stand at max range, and press 1.

Trust me, there is never a bad reason to take coated bullets, and taking those 10 points from firearms and placing them somewhere else will never net you more damage.

I’ve done that before, but I find it really situational. iirc it also works if you hit a wall or whatever right behind them, but I haven’t come across many places I could do that reliably either. I much prefer to choose traits I know I’ll definitely be able to make use of fairly constantly over ones that could be quite useful but only under some conditions (unless I’ve been getting those situations a lot).

Sure it might not get me more damage directly, but if I can put those 10 points into elixirs and get more use out of my buffs and survival skills, it could still be more useful to me than piercing shots if it helps my survival. I mean if I’m already choosing DoT or a mixture of that and direct damage, it’s not like I’m relying on killing people super-fast. Being around to apply damage for longer could be more use for me, depending on what I’ve been facing.

Don’t forget about firearms 25 – 5% increased damage against bleeding foe, basically after your 1st auto-attack. So, what you’re gaining:

• Firearms 20 + 10 in random tree – more utility, losing 5% dmg (it’s like losing superior sigil) and pretty much AoE dmg
• Firearms 25 + 5 in random tree – increased damage, the only useful utility trait comes from alchemy (free elixir B ), loss of AoE dmg
• Firearms 30 – increased damage, few times more explosions, great chance to damage oponents trying to hide behind tanks or destroyable obstacles, if you’re lucky – dealing up to triple damage to a single enemy (this situation is rare, yet possible)

The agreed upon build for dps with pistol/shield is 10/30/0/30/0. You are already taking 30 in alchemy. You have plenty of toughness as you are going full rabid.

If you take 10 from firearms because you think coated bullets isnt worth it, then what is? 10 extra points in explosives? It’s hilarious that Casia stated power scales horribly with pistols in her first reply then goes ahead and reveals her awesome power/crit damage pistol build…Sorta contradictory huh?

Put it in toughness? One 10 point toughness trait is not worth the sacrifice. Tools? How many toolbelt skills do you really use with a condition based p/s engi? You are going elixir H, the toolbelt skill sucks with that, elixir B, toolbelt skill sucks with that, and most likely elixir R. The cooldown with 10 points in tools reduces the skill to I think 64 seconds. Spending 10 points to shave six seconds off a skill is pointless when you could take coated bullets instead.

You talk about guarantees. Well you are pretty much GUARANTEED to fight more than one person at a time in spvp or wvwvw. I don’t know what game you are playing where every fight is a magical 1v1, but I’m playing a different one. In that situation a build with coated bullets will always outshine a build without coated bullets.

So, the ball is in your court. Convince me of a better use of 10 points.

Decklan.7540:

The biggest “clown” is the one who accepts mediocrity.

Right now Blowtorch is mediocre and there needs to be more incentive to go P/P over P/S.

I’m not going to argue numbers here. The truth is that P/P and P/S are two completely different play styles, and the two shouldn’t be compared to one another.

But because of the way your OP is written, I’m not exactly sure what you’re trying to argue, other than you believe P/P is sub-par to P/S. I think this is where people are getting annoyed:
We don’t want Blowtorch and Glueshot changed into anything else. The mechanics of them do work (apart from Blowtorch having the occasional miss in battle for no real reason) and they provide a different playstyle to P/S.
Your title seems to imply this, and I know many people don’t read past that before posting their opinion.

From my experience P/P is a fantastic build for PvE and WvW, and definitely lacking in sPvP. Terrible for PvDoor though. Where it excels the most is on the fringes of combat, picking off low HP characters with quick bursts of condition. I can down anybody not specced into vitality in seconds. Where it does not excel is prolongued combat against high vitality builds.

I haven’t used P/S for long enough in any situation to be able to make a valuable comparison between the two. The playstyle of the shield just doesn’t click with me, and I dispise having to stand still if I want to use the reflection ability.

I think, OP, you need to clear up exactly what you want to change about the off-hand pistol. I feel like people aren’t getting your meaning here.

Casia.4281:

(Fumigate is terrible, dont use that. But acid bomb is HIGH damage, and an escape. Super elixir is a strong heal, and aoe cond removal. F does more damage then static shot, and 1 does more damage then explosive shot)

I’m rereading posts in this thread and beginning to realize that a lot of engineers are very misinformed.

Tranquilizer Dart does not do more damage than Explosive Shot. Explosive shot gets two attacks in the time it takes tranq shot to do one. Elixir F does not do more damage than Static Shot when you factor in confusion.

I’d support my evidence with math, but I’d rather some people stay misinformed so they are easier targets in pvp.

Decklan.7540:

Casia.4281:

I find a good p/p hard to really lock down….
…Runes of the centaur. (its op.)
Gear. Crit/toughness primary. Knights. Yes, NOT condition. Condition damage is terrible. P/p needs some survival. and power for damage, after that crit% and damage.

I can’t believe I just read this. Now I know I’m being trolled. You are seriously playing a pistol build without coated bullets or condition damage.

Do you have any idea how much more effective you would be and how much more CC you would offer with a rifle?

yes. do the math. Power/crit is superior for p/p as well.
Coated bullets is awful. Again, do some research. I even stated the reasons mostly.

And actually I do run rifle now. but that was not the topic of the thread. this thread is discussing pistols. I leveled p/p, and swapped when I did the math on how terrible coated bullets and condition damage was. but should ruin the thread by talking about how grenades crap all over p/p, p/shield, rifle, flame thrower, etc?

p/p has some options to compete with rifle. Glueshot is better then net shot. That aoe cripple, and ground target lets you lead your target. Rifles net shot being targeted on a player, can be body blocked, and misses alot vs dodges, or long range moving players. its a 1000 range, however, will never land on someone more then 500 out.
Rifles knockdown is obviously good at stopping stomps. Which p/p does not have an option for. A problem indeed.

Decklan.7540:

Casia.4281:

(Fumigate is terrible, dont use that. But acid bomb is HIGH damage, and an escape. Super elixir is a strong heal, and aoe cond removal. F does more damage then static shot, and 1 does more damage then explosive shot)

I’m rereading posts in this thread and beginning to realize that a lot of engineers are very misinformed.

Tranquilizer Dart does not do more damage than Explosive Shot. Explosive shot gets two attacks in the time it takes tranq shot to do one. Elixir F does not do more damage than Static Shot when you factor in confusion.

I’d support my evidence with math, but I’d rather some people stay misinformed so they are easier targets in pvp.

Tranq is .75s attack. Explosive shot is .5s now. (it used to be .75s too)

Confusion can be cleansed and scales at a lower rate then power/crit.
Elixir F has .715 power scaling. (969 weapon)
Static shot has .37 power scaling. (1025 exotic pistol) confuse scales at .25

Decklan.7540:

I’m rereading posts in this thread and beginning to realize that a lot of engineers are very misinformed.

Most of us absolutely agree. They say things such as

Decklan.7540:

There needs to be more incentive to go P/P other than looks, because right now, there is no reason to go P/P over P/S.

You continue to fail to understand that just because you are inept with a weapons combo, does not mean it it is bad or that it needs to change.

Decklan.7540:

Saying supply drop is a blast finisher is a cheap cop out. I don’t see many engineers wasting supply drop on a fire field just to get might stacks when they could of saved it for a more opportune moment; like maybe as a huge AoE stun.

I love it. Someone uses fact and you babble about cop outs. They do use it, they use it to stack blast finishers. It is used alot. It is called skill. Let me clue you in. Skilled engineer plan ahead. They stack finishers.

Decklan.7540:

Casia.4281:

10 in tools.
10% crit damage(long duration fury, and 50-60% base with crit gear like you should with a p/p build), 10% cd on toolbelt, speedy kits for perma swiftness, toobelt recharge on 25% life, for elixir R always being up to self rez.

immobalize+cripple on glue shot is stronger then pointblank stun/reflect.
We are talking wvw. if you are stuck in one place, you can just be avoided. And you can’t advance on a point, while holding shield reflect. (block you can)

supply drop is a blast finisher.

Saying supply drop is a blast finisher is a cheap cop out. I don’t see many engineers wasting supply drop on a fire field just to get might stacks when they could of saved it for a more opportune moment; like maybe as a huge AoE stun.

Like yuki said, how long are you gonna survive against a zerg when you saunter up to 600 range just to pop your blowtorch? How often do you do this? Be honest with your answer please.

You will survive more running from a zerg with reflect than with glue shot. I’d rather reflect a net shot then toss out glue shot.

How much damage do you think 10 percent crit damage adds to your pistol crits? I’ll give you a hint. Roughly 36 extra damage. You get similar output with 100 extra power, which is what you would get when you place 10 in explosives. Have you ever dropped super elixir then comboed it into an aoe heal with the shields 30 second cd blast finisher. Well you can do that with P/S. P/P doesn’t have options like that.

Look at the abilities, look at what they do, P/P is not worth it over P/S and that needs to change.

super elixir is a light field. A blast finisher is aoe retaliation. so, no I have never comboed it into an aoe heal with shields. and neither have you.

Who said anything about using using supply drop for might stacks?
I stated I would build p/p with knights, which gives toughness. Orbs, guild bonuses, and realm give massive hp gains, gearing for hp is a mistake. not to mention 30 alch does give +hp regardless. On top of this. Elixir R +dodge, and cleansing. 75% cleanse, 409 on every throw. etc. Survival is not a problem. Supply drop in a zerg on zerg is the first thing I do 90% of the time. P/p or glass cannon grenades. If I can run up, drop a supply drop, and carpet bomb with grenades in full zerkers. I’m pretty sure I can live with a p/p build and toughness, and elixir gun swap.

10% crit damage.
2500 power with might stacks, 80% crit with fury up, +60% damage crits. yes 10% more crit damage is more then +100 power.

Firearms doesn’t give +crit damage. its gives crit chance. Explosives gives power.
Zerkers GEAR gives crit damage, but we aren’t wearing that. We are wearing something that gives power, crit, toughness. If we were wearing zerkers, the discussion might shift.
Crits are +50% damage by default. A 500 hit, will crit for 750.
Gear, firearms, and fury will give a very high crit chance. This is ideal for damage, and the proc on crit traits. firearms 5 point bleed.
So, we have this 60-80% crit chance, but only dealing +50% damage on crits? nope.
20 points in tools gives +20%, for +70% damage crits. (We can orb for some more if you like, instead of pure knights on everything which might be overkill on toughness. Damage does scale better then defense, especially with focus fire)

PDV 2500 power, 80% crit, and 70% damage crits, vs 2600 power, 80% crit, and 60% damage crits.
565 ave vs 561

LameFox.6349:

Knight’s isn’t that bad (never tried those runes though). The toughness is pretty obvious, it just lets you take harder hits (since conditions aren’t too bad on an engineer already I don’t mind the lack of vitality so much, plus I usually have something in that line for elixirs anyway). Power gives you some direct damage as well, which is never exactly terrible to have, plus it’s handy when you’re shooting an object or someone who is really good at condition removal. Precision gives you more damage via critical hits, and better application of any on-crit sigils plus the traits (bleed, burn, swift, etc). Then condition damage itself you’ll get via the trait line on the way to range/recharge/condition options (in my case also runes).

You don’t actually have to maximize one approach at the expense of everything else if you don’t want to. Especially with something like coated bullets… if you find you’re not actually shooting through multiple targets much anyway, you might well get more use out of something else.

yeah. I dont want to say WHY centaurs is op… but look at it. Think about how WvW works.
Elixir H has a 25s cd without the 20% cdr trait. (so many good alch traits, its hard to actaully fit it in.)
My mesmer has a 15s cd mirror heal. And +30% boon duration…
Now imagine what happens when you have 3-5 people in a group with centaurs.

And my mesmer doesnt even have a bleed.

Decklan.7540

The agreed upon build for dps with pistol/shield is 10/30/0/30/0. You are already taking 30 in alchemy. You have plenty of toughness as you are going full rabid.

I thought I made it pretty clear I wasn’t talking about a DPS build. Just in case: I wasn’t talking about a DPS build. I mean I specifically mentioned putting the extra into elixirs, and if you had 30 points in elixirs already that would be sort of hard.

yeah. I dont want to say WHY centaurs is op… but look at it. Think about how WvW works.
Elixir H has a 25s cd without the 20% cdr trait. (so many good alch traits, its hard to actaully fit it in.)
My mesmer has a 15s cd mirror heal. And +30% boon duration…
Now imagine what happens when you have 3-5 people in a group with centaurs.

And my mesmer doesnt even have a bleed.

I normally use healing turret (just dropping it and picking it up again for the 15sec c/d) which might be a bit awkward trying to make use of swiftness, but it might be worth a shot at H again. Depends, mostly when I end up in a WvW group we’re being given swiftness permanently by various classes already.

yeah, you certainly can use the turret for the even shorter CD if that is what you are famillair with. I wasn’t suggesting H was specifically better for it. I just use H due to pretty much always being 30 in alch.

First off casia, I know the difference between a water field and a light field and yes I made a mistake. The difference between you and me is I own up those mistakes and will leave the post there because I really don’t care at this point.

If you want to go around promoting power pistol builds with crit damage then be my guest, i’m sure teams will eagerly choose to face you; and they won’t even have to wait that long to kill you because your whole squad is packing centaur runes so you can swiftness stack!

As for Coglin, yes Casia was using supply drop as a cop out. Saying you have a blast finisher in your kit because of your 180 second cooldown elite skill is like saying your a pet class because you can summon two hounds of balthazar every 240 seconds. It’s a cop out. I’d love to join whatever group or thing you do coglin. If you need a tank don’t worry, I can tank dungeons because I can go immune to all damage for 2 seconds! Trust me it will work! I am stating fact! If you need blast combos don’t worry! I can drop one every 3 minutes!

I sure hope at no point will my guild feel having 4 blast combos in 3min is needed over 1.
I would really begin to question their builds, if that will make or break them. combos are nice, but not something that needs to be repeated every 40s over the course of 3min.
It also doesnt have stability, or a knockdown to interrupt stomps/knock people off siege. A much graver missing factor. That would actually be a valid point.

Direct damage scales better then condition damage. that is a fact. and DD is better no matter your weapon choice. Rifle, grenades, flamethower, pistols, shield, elixir gun, bombs, mines, etc.

Rifle scales better then pistols. but since the topic is pistols and its offhand vs shield, the discussion of is how that is balanced.

Glueshot is one of the best CC’s engineers have. its better then netshot. rifles immobilize. its better then shields daze. (statics blind is quite good) Shields knockdown is good for a very defensive point hold, but thats it. So its more spvp. Even in WvW defensive holdings need to be offensive in nature. Sitting on a supply camp, or door and hitting block won’t actaully stop the attackers from attacking, or kill siege. Even a defense needs to ATTACK to get attackers to back off, or be wiped.
So, you have to recognize that power when talking of offhand pistol balance.

Blowtorch. Again, its a high damage move. Melee aoe, fitting with pistols design. A nice burst damage ability, that especially works with glueshots immobalize.

Pistols in general need work. Something I already stated. coated bullets needs to be buffed. only effecting 2 skills is bad design. 1 of which it barely does anything for.
And HALF of its usefulness is a bug. if Explosive shot didn’t double hit when exploding on the ground, it would be completely terrible. That is seriously the only saving grace of that trait.
Explosive shot has gone through changes. nerfed scaling, then buff cast speed. Its in a pretty decent place now. PDV needs to work more reliably. And especially with coated bullets.
Static is in a good place of course. Between the blind, the immobalize, supply drop, and general toughness, p/p can stand face to face with any war/rogue. (Take your pick on your kit, and any gadgets you might want for more)

P/p is more fun to play and more reliably and more responsive then both rifle and shield.
Changing the mechanics is not what it needs. Rifle just does WAY more damage. and shield is good for spvp, Ima sit on this point and not move.

My mesmer. I run scepter/focus on weapon swap. I dont even use anything on that except temporal curtain. Which is really good..
But portal, feedback, illusion of life, timewarp, blink, null field, viel, etc…
This is a larger problem with engineers. Our utility skills are not remotely as useful to teams. Feedback alone is pretty much better then engineers entire arsenal save grenades. P/p is melee aoe weapon set. and does that just fine. The problem is, we can’t back that up with utility or kits that couple with it to great effect. Elixir gun does a decent job. Lets you melee p/p damage, and elixir gun support. could grenades, although, if you are doing that, grenadier is hard to not justify.
Playing a mesmer. with temporal curtain and feedback. I could not possibly play a p/s engi. Yet, I can play p/p because blowtorch does the job I expect it to. heavy damage.

I would be more likely to make a thread saying shield needs a pull, not a knockback to couple with pistol mainhands melee range.

I have never had an issue with P/P, and whenever I see people saying its “Mediocre” and weak I can’t help but wonder if we’re even playing the same game…

I have to agree Tolmos. It seems to me, that several folks have this dissolution that they need to try to convince the rest of us, that the devs need to rebuild the profession around them. It is pretty bad when folks lack in ability and skill with the profession to such a level, that they feel they have to try to convince the devs to rebuild it to allow for what they lack and hose the rest of us who excel with it.

yeah. math is beyond some people. who needs facts, when you have anecdotes.

Lol blowtorch is garbage in wvwvw. The only place it has any value is in 1v1 situations. Why on earth would you close to 400 range on a zerg just to put a few k of burning on 2-3 people?

Pistol offhand is just bad no matter how you cut it. There will always people who like every skill set, no matter how bad it is, because it’s what they’re used to or because they have some weird emotional investment in using bad skills and being “the one” who gets it.

Doesn’t change reality, though. Pistol offhand is poorly designed. The skills do little to complement the way pistol should play.

Casia, I don’t think you understand what the word anecdote means, otherwise you wouldn’t be using it as a pejorative when half of your posts are riddled with stories and baseless opinions on your mesmer, or your centaur runes, or your fantastic crit dmg no condition pistol build.

Math and empirical evidence has clearly abandoned you; but then again you can always reply with yet another thread about an abilities power scaling you gleaned from a wiki to make yourself sound brilliant and sow more disinformation. You already lead coglin like a lap dog; now whenever I see a thread by him I envision a man with a leash around his neck.

Yet you are right, and you are amazing. Coglin, you are the best engineer in the world. If god played an engineer it would be you. No one else here excels at the engineer as much as you and whenever they have an opinion it is pointless as it is merely because we are horrible at playing this game! I am terribly sorry for trying to hose your golden play style, for it is the greatest of all play styles and for me to even say otherwise is an affront to the lord of engineers himself! The lord of engineers commands that we bask in the glory of under-powered offhand pistol skills! If we don’t then the lord of engineers will summon his mistress Casia to berate you with nonsensical information and poorly thought out builds! If you disagree with her then the lord of engineers will reply FURIOUSLY with a message filled to the brim with words like “excel” and “hosed” and “no-skill!”

I am going to have to disagree with you on this subject. Everybody has their own play style, and saying that the P offhand needs to change, because it does not fit your play style, is plain silly. Both the shield and pistol can be used just as effectively depending on the situation that it is used. We could argue back and forth all night throwing math into each others faces, like I have watched you guys do since yesterday, and not come to a conclusion. So I will put in my two cents and tell you why I prefer the P offhand vs the Shield. My build is none of your business, however I have a little over 2100 defense. Since I am a little squishy, I find myself always moving, and kiting all the bad melee users. The shield’s two abilities both root you in place, putting you in harms way, when you could have simply dodged whatever is coming your way. Most people complain that the dodge mechanic is bad, but since I seem to have “mastered” this mechanic, I do not have any need for the shield. So, instead of having a shield which I have no use for, I use the pistol offhand for increased dps and burning. Before you reply with your, “You’re an idiot and you have no clue what you are talking about.” I have no problems decimating in wvwvw or structured 1v1, 1v2, and sometimes 1v3 situations. If you are running into 4+ people by yourself, you’re just being a horsekitten. Anyways, back to what I was saying earlier, the pistol offhand and shield, are both situational. To say one is better than another is like saying Blastoise is better than both Venusaur and Charizard.

Please don’t! I love my current sPvP build and actually Glue shot is a kind of cc which is hard to achieve with our other options (exspecially with traited pistol range).

You are right that we also have alot of other ways to apply burining but again Blow torch does it in a way that allows for different other utilities/traits. Incendiary ammo is a very good adept trait but it wont apply this amount of burn to this amount of people. Try this build in sPvP and tell me if you still think it is bad: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fcAQJAqal0pae3zSfF1LJxoCcGki8WfRFy/nHyltpF;ToAAzCpo+y8l4LbRuvkFNqYSA

And for PvE I cannot really say alot because EVERYTHING is outperformed by grenades/rifle but basically you lose the block and reflect and gain very reliable aoe burn that is somewhat ranged compared to flame bomb and a huge ranged aoe bind/cripple.