Guild Wars 2

Having listened to the SOAC podcast, and having heard Amadeus complain about the Junk Traits of the Engineer, I thought I’d start a thread bringing up the junk traits of the Engineer and what changes could bring them back to the forefront.

Now, I understand that there have been multiple threads about the traits of the Engineer, but I’d like to bring up particular traits that no-one takes, in any build, for any reason; be it due to bugs, or the trait mechanic being just plain bad.

I’ll start off with the Explosives line, and go on from there. Feel free to post your own thoughts on traits you dislike; especially if you actually take a trait I don’t like. I’d really like to hear how you fit them into builds.

Starting off with the Minor Traits of the Explosives line;
There is Evasive Powder Keg at Adept Level, and Reserve Mines at Master Level.

Everyone that runs Grenadier has to pick up these useless Minor Traits along the way. As Minor Traits, they are supposed to be a filler between the build-defining Major Traits, but they are also supposed to support an Explosives-based build. As it stands, the Minor Traits suffer from several problems.

Evasive Powder Keg

• Evasive Powder Keg makes you proc Confusion twice upon dodge. There is nothing more annoying than fighting a Glamour/Shatter Mesmer in WvW, getting hit with AOE Glamours, then trying to dodge out of the AOE and taking double Confusion damage.
• The actual Bomb itself does negligible damage and has very, very small AOE. It would be an okay Trait with a Bomb build since you’re in melee range already, but it doesn’t offer any kiting/anti-kiting ability.
• I’m pretty sure Forceful Explosives still decreases its AOE down to something negligible, because I’ve never been able to hit with an Evasive Powder Keg with Forceful Explosives slotted.

Reserve Mines:

• Engineer as a class is replete with 25% health procs, and this is one of them. Whilst it would be nice to have a comeback at 25% health, I’d rather not get there in the first place.
• I somehow take multiple hits of Confusion from Reserve Mines as well. You can test this by going to Southsun Cove and fighting the Reef Drakes. At 25% health, the Confusion tick from casting Reserve Mines often takes me the rest of the way to Downed State.
• The Mine Dispersal is honestly one of the worst possible spells ever designed. The dispersal seems to be governed entirely by RNG. They spread out far and wide with AOEs that do not overlap. The Proximity Detonation never triggers. Worst of all, they deal next to no damage. I’ve seen a Reserve Mine detonate for all of 166 damage. You will not rally off Reserve Mines if you go down.
• For a Minor Trait in a Traitline at Master Level, there really is absolutely no synergy with either Bomb or Grenade builds. It doesn’t support the Conditions of Grenades, and it doesn’t support the Damage of Bombs. It’s just kind of on the way there to Grenadier, or for Forceful Explosions/Short Fuse/Explosive Powder for Bomb builds.

Proposed changes
Given how pretty much all of Bomb build supporting traits are in Explosives Major Trait slots, and given how there are 4 traits for only 3 Major Trait slots, I’d like one of the Major Trait slot functionalities moved into the Reserve Mine slot at 15 points.
There are 4 candidates:

• Shrapnel
• Forceful Explosives
• Explosive Powder
• Short Fuse

There was a lot of talk back before Grenade Kit came to the forefront how the AOE for Bomb kit increase from Forceful Explosives was supposed to be baseline given how hard it was to hit foes when their radius was reduced from 240 to 180. This could be one possible change.

Bomb kit users running Condition Damage might appreciate an extra Bleed stack for condition cover with the addition of Shrapnel as a minor trait. The HGH grenadier running Condi damage may also appreciate it. As it stands, it is difficult to stack intense bleeds (i.e. 10+) with either Bomb kit or Grenade Kit, although Grenade Kit comes close if you run 100% Condition Duration gear.

The Power Scaling for Bombs is really, quite handsome already, but really comes into its own with Explosive Powder. Making it a Minor Trait may bring Bomb Kit back to the Forefront, especially with ArenaNet “Looking at Grenades” (Nerfing them) on the horizon. Engineer really needs all Kits to be equally as viable as Grenades and making Explosive Powder a minor Trait is a possible step forward to that end.

Short Fuse as a CDR trait will be unlikely to be considered for a Minor Trait slot; as most traits for Cooldown Reduction come at the Master Level as a Major Trait. I think that CDR as a trait mechanic is a terrible concept anyway, because it increases class DPS without increasing class depth, and compounds class balance issues.

One possible new Minor Trait that could be considered over Reserve Mines (Although let’s be honest, anything is better than Reserve Mines) could be the addition of offensive kiting utility through conditions.
New trait: Daisycutter
Bomb explosions inflict Weakness for 1 second. This decreases the risk Bombardiers take upon themselves by going into melee with Bombs. It’s basically an offensive form of Protection, and serves to weaken kiting as well, by reducing Endurance Regeneration.

• It could also affect Grenades, but with the condi-burst of Grenadier as it stands, having even more Conditions to cover the Burn and Bleeds and Poison seems a bit much.

Acidic Elixirs, Shrapnel, Empowering Adrenaline, Exploit Weakness, Go for the Eyes, Metal Plating (wouldn’t be useless if the turrets were already tough), Stabilized Armor, Rifled Barrel Turrets, Acidic Coating, Always Prepared, Scope, Leg Mods, Armor Mods, Adrenal Implant (not useless, just not enough for 30pts when ranger can get it for 5)

@Super Riceman:
Acidic Elixirs certainly ranks up there in terms of useless in the Explosives line. It might have seen some use with the HGH Grenadier if it had actually done something aside from 100 damage at level 80 that does not have any scaling whatsoever.

I remember someone on this forum once saying that the most ironic way to buff it was to make it inflict a random condition upon striking a foe within its AOE; so that we could RNG whilst we RNG’d with Elixirs.

As it stands, it’s pretty much the worst trait possible in the Explosives line. There are no builds that it can possibly fit into, and that is ignoring the fact that Elixirs that are thrown usually have a buff attached to its impact; which would probably be a Bad Thing for HGH Engineers to try to use to both buff themselves and damage the enemy.

Proposed Changes

• RNG whilst we RNG: Random Condition inflicted on Foes struck by a Thrown Elixir. This proposal would be pretty flavourful for the Engineer, and adds some offensive utility to the Throw Elixir toolbelt skills. As it stands, though, the presence of Cleaning Formula 409 and HGH makes this trait significantly less attractive.

An oft-discussed option on this forum would be to implement a combo field associated with the flavour of Elixir. Thus:

• Elixir H generates a Water Field for 3 seconds upon impact
• Elixir B generates a Fire Field for 3 seconds upon impact. Alternatives could include the Lightning field (For swiftness).
• Elixir C generates a Light field for 3 seconds upon impact. Alternatives include an Ethereal Field due to the random boons flavour.
• Elixir S generates a Smoke Field for 3 seconds upon impact. Alternatives include an Ethereal Field
• Elixir R already is a Light Field
• Elixir U already RNGs Smoke wall, or Light wall.

As it stands this proposal retains the offensive and defensive capabilities of Tossed Elixirs, whilst adding additional functionality and flavour.

Another proposal could be to implement opposite effects to foes struck by the Elixir.

• Elixir B inflicts Bleed, Weakness and Cripple for 5 seconds to foes struck
• Elixir C corrupts 3 boons into Conditions to foes struck
• Elixir H inflicts damage and Vulnerability to foes struck
• Elixir R inflicts a random condition with every pulse
• Elixir U inflicts Chill and Weakness to foes struck
• Elixir S inflicts Revealed to foes struck

Now you have to think about sacrificing a strong utility thrown at your feet against debilitating your foes. It adds a different dynamic to thrown Elixirs.

Elixir S could be a lightning field because; long cooldown, no need for smoke since there is another way to get that and it has a chance to grant stealth already, lighting fields are rare, can defend allies or trap enemies

Elixir B should be a fire field (for might and burning which fit with the utility skill) or a dark field (engi has no way of creating it right now, lifesteal fits with the utility skill)

Some good ideas here. I wish I had the option to turn off minor traits that do more harm than good, but I understand that would be a somewhat embarrassing feature for Anet to implement. I wanted to turn off evasive powder keg so many times back when I was running a bomb build and forceful explosions was still bugged (I still don’t think it increases the radius of the evasive powder keg, but at least it doesn’t reduce the range to zero anymore…) There are still things I wish I could turn off, but hopefully they’ll set to work improving them!

Evasive Powder Keg could drop a smaller 180 AoE Glue Bomb w/ a cooldown of 15 sec. That way it benefits kiters and people who prefer to stay close to the enemy. Benefits those who go lightly or heavily into the explosives because it scales w/ condition duration.

Reserve Mine can drop the same mines from Throw Mine. It won’t have the OPness of the mine kit (from betas) because the spread is random so you can’t stack 5 mines in a water field. It also has a larger trigger radius than the toolbelt and is a threatening to the enemy because it is a knockback. It can also solve the CC problem if you chose to go w/ out interupts on your utilities.

I have to say, engineer does have a ton of junk traits. I have an 80 engineer, guardian, and warrior. For guardian and warrior, a great deal of the traits have at least some use if it is just in certain situations. Engineer has so many junk traits that aren’t useful in any situation ever.

one thing that engineers do not really suffer from, however, except maybe in the alchemy tree, are too many traits of the same type in one tree.

i rather appreciate having to take 30 points in firearms and 20 in alchemy to get the FT traits, whereas in other classes a tree will have 6 or more of the 12 traits dedicated to one type of build (the bottom tree of thieves comes to mind), so you simply cant have them all.

i am not saying that engie traits are optimal, but i certainly hope the pendulum does not swing to the opposite extreme.

Part of the problem is that we have to take all the traits of a related type to be effective in one area – e.g. 50pts to make 1 kit effective. This commits us to the associated minor traits, whether want them or not.

Now that the Minor Traits in Explosives are done away with, let’s look at some of the Major Traits that don’t see much use.

2 traits in the Explosives line that I rarely see use of are Shrapnel (II) and Empowering Adrenaline (IV).

Shrapnel
Taking up the Adept Major slot, Shrapnel offers a 15% chance to cause 1 stack of Bleeding for 12 seconds from explosions. The chance is unmodified by Critical Chance. As far as Adept level traits go, this would seem like a usable trait. One could easily envision its use in Grenadier builds due to the copious amounts of explosions that result.

Unfortunately, Shrapnel is easily overshadowed by Incendiary Powder. Recent changes to Incendiary Powder have further compounded the issue. Previously, Grenadier Builds would have an ideal Critical Chance % of approximately 40-50%, to keep Burning uptime on target at 66%+. The change to Incendiary Powder, inflicting burning for 4 seconds on 10 second ICD with every critical, has lowered the ideal Critical Chance % threshold and has further emphasised Condition Duration for Condition Damage Grenadier builds. Grenadiers running Incendiary Powder now have 50% Burning uptime on target even without running Condition Duration, at a much lower Critical Chance % requirement.

Further compounding the issue is the presence of Sharpshooter, the Adept Minor Trait in Firearms. Engineers running Rabid/Rampager’s gear can easily stack more bleeds, and for much higher, without sacrificing the slot for Incendiary Powder.

Proposed Changes
To be honest, Shrapnel would be a good trait, if only Bomb Kit builds didn’t depend upon Explosive Powder/Short Fuse and Forceful Explosives. A Bleed stack to cover Burning and Confusion for Condition Damage Bomb Kit users would be nice, if it weren’t for the Sigil of Geomancy. As for Grenadier Builds, Incendiary Powder is just too good to pass up; and Bleed Stacks from Shrapnel Grenade are easy to build up and maintain.

I would like it if perhaps the chance was increased, and made conditional to Bomb Kit – i.e. *Bombs have a 30-50% chance to inflict Bleeding for 12 seconds.* The net effect would be the use of the trait as a cover condition in Condition Damage Bomb Kit builds. The possibility of multiple stacks should also be considered to further incentivise taking a Major Trait slot versus a Sigil of Geomancy.

Empowering Adrenaline
Yet another disregarded trait in the Explosives Trait Line is Empowering Adrenaline. Offering 5% bonus damage when Endurance is not full, Empowering Adrenaline is once again, largely overshadowed by Incendiary Powder for Bomb Kit and Grenade Kit builds.
If using a less kit-heavy build such as Rifle Control or an SD variant, it would also see relatively little use since Invigorating Speed in Alchemy is so good for those glassy builds.
The trait’s uselessness is compounded by the fact that Engineer as a class is largely reliant upon active defenses for survival; as we lack Boon-based survival through high Protection uptime, or a reliable Stealth mechanic to break focus. Playing a Rifle Build compounds these problems further and emphasises Dodge rationing.

The trait would be decent if Evasive Powder Keg would also be decent; offering bonus damage whilst within your Evade frames to foes. I could see a Bomb Kit build using Empowering Adrenaline, Speedy Kits and Invigorating Speed that is highly Evasive in Melee range, but Evasive Powder Keg is very lacking at the moment. In addition, Endurance for dodges is something to be rationed, and not having a double dodge for a situational increase in damage can be deadly.

(That is, unless you are playing this joke build:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/engineer/Joke-Build-Dodge-for-Days )

Proposed Changes
Honestly I have no idea how to make Empowering Adrenaline good. The Combat
system of GW2 emphasises player mobility, and careful rationing of Endurance and dodges for player survivability. As with other less used Explosive line traits, it is easily overshadowed by traits that are less situational, and have greater synergy. If Evasive Powder Keg did significant damage, the trait might approach usability in some crazy melee dodge-proc build with Bombs. Unfortunately, Engineer as a class lacks a significant amount of dodge procs and in fact some defensive traits i.e. Stabilised Armour are actually dependent upon not dodging at all.

MonMalthias.4763:

The trait’s uselessness is compounded by the fact that Engineer as a class is largely reliant upon active defenses for survival; as we lack Boon-based survival through high Protection uptime,

this is incorrect.

Protective Shield and Protection Injection, combined with at least 20 points in alchemy, provides nearly permanent protection, whenever you need it most.

only guardians get more protection than we do.

Zenguy.6421:

Part of the problem is that we have to take all the traits of a related type to be effective in one area – e.g. 50pts to make 1 kit effective. This commits us to the associated minor traits, whether want them or not.

This is the most accurate, succinct description of what it is like to play an Engineer I have ever heard.

That being said, those stupid Southsun lizards have killed my on my automatic skills several times now, and I whole-heartedly agree with dispensing with junk traits asap.

While I agree on a lot of your points…. Shrapnel is already very powerful for grenades and beats out incendiary powder by a large margin.

At 3 grenades per second, with 15% and 12 second duration it’s a bit more than 5 bleed stacks constantly. Which is about twice the damage 40% burning up time with incendiary powder will give you.

Quetz.4389:

While I agree on a lot of your points…. Shrapnel is already very powerful for grenades and beats out incendiary powder by a large margin.

At 3 grenades per second, with 15% and 12 second duration it’s a bit more than 5 bleed stacks constantly. Which is about twice the damage 40% burning up time with incendiary powder will give you.

6 bleeds at 42.5 pts are 255 pts per second (ish) with 0 condition damage at level 80, whereas burning is 328 pts.

In fact, until you hit ~1387 Condition Damage, 6 stacks of bleed will still be less than the equivalent burning condition. And you will already be generating bleeds from shrapnel grenade anyway, giving you good concurrent condition application.

I understand what you are saying about total up time, but bear in mind that this is wholly dependent on your build, your target, and your focus for the fight as to which of these will be better. I will switch out for dungeons to IP, just because I don’t want to overwrite the CD Thieves or Necro’s superior bleeds, but in WvW, shrapnel all the way, with sigil of battle and Enhanced Performance for adding to the condition damage.

When talking about junk traits the first thing that comes to mind is the tools line. Armor mods, Adrenal implant, Scope, Leg mods, Always prepared, are some of the most useless traits in the game and they are all in the same line.

The tools line was supposed to be the one that improves our profession mechanics, by that i mean toolbelt skills, kit swapping and gadgets.Kit refinement, static discharge, Adrenal pump and Inertial converter do this. We need more traits like those. Here’s a list of suggestions:

• Move SD to master or GM level minor so people will stop being afraid Anet will put a CD on it.
• Make the speedy gadgets trait also increase your weapon damage by 5% for each gadget.
• Scrap armor mods and give us a good gadget GM trait.
• Scrap leg mods. It is basically the same trait as Power shoes but weaker.
• Change scope so it gives 20% standing still and 7% flanking. It is a master level folks, thieves get the same ammount on an adept one.
• Move Adrenal implant into a master level trait.
• New GM trait Magical Disrupting Devices: Gadgets and their toolbelt skills remove a boon on hit.
• The packaged stimulants trait now makes the skills explode on the ground and giving their effects in a small aoe, antidote now heals 2 or 3 condis.
• New GM traitTool belt Overload: Tool belt skills have instant activation.

GuilguiS.2738:

• New GM traitTool belt Overload: Tool belt skills have instant activation.

You cant have that because 1 of the heal skills (5-6k from medkit) is on the toolbelt

That’s why it is a gm trait

Now if only someone able from AN would read and understand this threads…

Anything that makes Elixir gun and Flamethrower better would be a nice addition.. Sadly those skills are very under utilized…so we need more traits for them to become viable in all aspects..

nakoda.4213:

this is incorrect.

Protective Shield and Protection Injection, combined with at least 20 points in alchemy, provides nearly permanent protection, whenever you need it most.

only guardians get more protection than we do.

It works just in an ideal case.
That is, if you get disabled constantly, cause your calculations are based on a rather frequent activation of Protection Injection – basically every 5 seconds . If that happens, even if you’ve got protection, you aren’t actually doing much anyway.
Only our other source of protection is elixir H/toss elixir H, and it does it randomly.
So, despite what do you say, we’ve really got no reliable source of protection. And neither one we can actually activate when we want to.

In this game, you get disabled by practically everything, and it is always being triggered in tpvp because as soon as people see fire, they target you and try to burn you down.

also, protective shield can proc off of dot crits.

stun, daze, knockback, immo; if you aren’t constantly facing these with the FT then, imo, you are too far away from where the FT is mokittennctional…given you are dedicating the FT to a tanky build.

certainly, a crit dmg or pow swapping build would be different.

Protection injection doesn’t cover cripple, chill and immo.
Stun, daze, knockdown, knockback, launch, fear, float, sink. It activates with these ones.
And for the full uptime you are talking about, you should get one of these effects every 5 seconds and a critical every 20 seconds. No, they don’t happen that much frequently in combat, despite what you say.

Whatever, the sentiment is the same, when bunking a point, protection injection + protective shield = nearly permanent 33% dmg reduction while in combat.

try discussing the point at hand and stop getting hung up on semantic kittenery. my mislabeling the sources pf the proc doesn’t change the effect or frequency of the proc.

nakoda.4213:

Whatever, the sentiment is the same, when bunking a point, protection injection + protective shield = nearly permanent 33% dmg reduction while in combat.

try discussing the point at hand and stop getting hung up on semantic kittenery. my mislabeling the sources pf the proc doesn’t change the effect or frequency of the proc.

I like using both protection traits because they are pretty good. Of course, it’s not anywhere near actual 100% uptime, but as you say, it’s usually up when you need it (especially against bad thieves, etc. who just open with their combo and then they’re done). Of course, against decent players who know how to do sustained damage, it’s not permanent at all, although it’s still pretty high protection uptime.

4.5 out of every 5 seconds, with runes and traits. near-perma enough.

anyway, the point was just to illustrate the misinformation that engies lack protection.

we don’t.

nakoda.4213:

4.5 out of every 5 seconds, with runes and traits. near-perma enough.

anyway, the point was just to illustrate the misinformation that engies lack protection.

we don’t.

It would still be good for the engi to get protection that doesn’t require actions from the enemy, im not arguing that engies lack protection but they require your enemies to trigger the traits which means you have less control of when you get it unlike the guardian or ele.

There could be a trait that grants protection on crit or projectiles reflected at you, it would bring some survivability to the explosives, firearms or tool trees.

nakoda.4213:

4.5 out of every 5 seconds, with runes and traits. near-perma enough.

anyway, the point was just to illustrate the misinformation that engies lack protection.

we don’t.

Arguing on theoretical and ideal circumstances doesn’t make them real and practical. You’re the one who spreads misinformation here.
Basing all your theories upon a “we will be disabled exactly every 5 seconds” – cause that is the main source of that “near perma protection”.

Super Riceman.8702:

There could be a trait that grants protection on crit or projectiles reflected at you, it would bring some survivability to the explosives, firearms or tool trees.

We’ve got one that activates on crit – 3 second protection every 20 seconds – and it was already included in the calculations i posted before.

Don’t get me wrong: as far as adept traits go, they’re good.
But saying we don’t lack protection – even though we’ve got no skill that reliably gives it, thus no way of getting it on demand – just because there is an extremely specialized choice of traits – we would spend more than half the traits just to raise boon duration and getting those traits – and runes that, in an ideal condition, can give us a near-perma protection – well, that seems quite wrong.
Theory and practice are quite different, and you can’t base real arguments upon ideal, fabricated circumstances. Or else one could justify even our turrets’ survivability – after all, they can resist 5 minutes if no one ever attacks them – or the rng of the mystic forge (you can get a precursor at the first try, after all).

auto defense bomb dispenser is pretty disappointing as a grand master no one really makes a build around the idea of throwing smoke in peoples eyes when knocked down.
I am in general disappointed with turret traits but that maybe because they start off so kitten bad in the first place. Same thing with EG if it weren’t for the heals I would never equip it.
Auto elixir s is a death trap if you have conditions on you or are rooted.
Adrenal implant big deal I can get twice as much with only 10 points in alchemy yet another disappointing grand master.
Thrown med kits why cant they just apply in a small aoe instead
Kit refinement very sore subject its totally unusable
and last but not least dropping bandages and ft/eg here have some wimpy heals and a distraction instead of rezing me maybe if it dropped nades but why our weaker kits

Super Riceman.8702:

There could be a trait that grants protection on crit or projectiles reflected at you, it would bring some survivability to the explosives, firearms or tool trees.

Manuhell.2759:

We’ve got one that activates on crit – 3 second protection every 20 seconds – and it was already included in the calculations i posted before.

I meant when you critically hit an enemy, not when you are critically hit by an enemy

When I think of bad traits I think of always prepared. Realistically, dropping junk on the floor is pointless. I know they tried to patch it with duct tape and give it a 25% boost but that doesnt really help much on throw junk which is on the condition damage side. Its like trying to give bonus power damage to pistols. It does work better on booby trap of you can ever get it to go off. I think best fix is to just cut the part where you throw junk on the ground and just make it a 50% dmg increase instead.The way it is right now it cant decide what it is so it ends up doing nothing at all.

Penguin.5197:

When I think of bad traits I think of always prepared. Realistically, dropping junk on the floor is pointless. I know they tried to patch it with duct tape and give it a 25% boost but that doesnt really help much on throw junk which is on the condition damage side. Its like trying to give bonus power damage to pistols. It does work better on booby trap of you can ever get it to go off. I think best fix is to just cut the part where you throw junk on the ground and just make it a 50% dmg increase instead.The way it is right now it cant decide what it is so it ends up doing nothing at all.

It would work better if it just dropped Big Ol’ Bomb or Acid Bomb when you got downed, neither the kits or dmg help enough to get it.

Have it drop elixir R on a 90 second cooldown.

Spart.6578:

Have it drop elixir R on a 90 second cooldown.

This has trollface drawn all over it, I like it.

Especially if we’re downed together with an ally in close distance, oh yeah

My suggestion (just some ideas, not complaining on the balance):

Leg Mods: No more backpedal penalty.
Armor Mods: Every 8 hit taken the 9’ is blocked.
Packaged simulator: You cannot take you medkit from the ground. Every med kit you drop you are healed for the half amount that med kit will heal.
Speedy Gadgets: 20% recharge and breakstun.

Just make the last trait line more cooler. what should be.
I’m agree with the 5’ and 15’ of the explosive are kind of weird but at 10’ and 20’ you can take really big traits so for me is not a big deal.

Edit:Actually i like evasive powder keg in pvp for the ability to take off blind

RE: Shrapnel
The response to this trait was unexpected, but in retrospect it does make sense in the context of the Condition Duration Grenadier. I mainly play with either Power Grenades or Might Stacking; so I use Incendiary Powder as that gives the most bang for my buck (A strong DoT) for the minimum amount of Condition Damage invested in my Hybrid Gear.

With respect to Evasive Powder Keg negating blind, that is indeed useful against Thieves and Mesmers. However, I would still like the double Confusion Proc to be addressed. The recent nerf to Confusion is merely a Band-Aid fix. A full pass of Confusion-Proccing traits and Skills must be done.

Anyway, back to the Explosives trait line.
The last trait I would like to talk about in the Explosives Trait Line is Autodefense Bomb Dispenser.
This trait drops a Smoke Bomb upon being disabled by: stun, daze, knockdown, knockback, launch, float, sink and fear. It has a 60 second Internal Cooldown.

This is an interesting trait to discuss because unlike many of the other traits discussed so far, it actually did have a place in Bomb Kit Bunker builds. However, Smoke Bomb was not only nerfed in terms of the duration of its effect, but also the pulses of Blind it was able to apply. The old Smoke Bomb blinded 4 times over its duration and had a base AOE of 240 units.

The nerfed Smoke Bomb now only blinds twice over its duration and needs to be traited to have an AOE of 240 units.

The ICD of Autodefense Bomb Dispenser was balanced around the old Smoke Bomb, when dropping one essentially negated a melee burst entirely. After the nerf, however, the ICD of 60 seconds makes it no longer as attractive to take over something like Short Fuse in combination with Explosive Powder and Forceful Explosives in a dedicated Bomb build.

As a Grandmaster trait, it was the trait to take for Bomb Kit Bunker. Right now, it is overshadowed by better choices; and that isn’t even getting into the trait bloat of separating Forceful Explosives and Explosive Powder.

There are a few ways to bring it back into prominence:

• Revert the Smoke Bomb Autodefense Bomb Dispenser drops to the pre-nerf smoke bomb, whilst retaining the new, nerfed Smoke Bomb for the Kit proper.
  This will still allow a strong counter-burst GM trait without over-empowering the Bomb Kit.
• Change the mechanic to a new trait: Impact Fusing Bombs now detonate without delay. Big Ol’ Bomb’s detonation delay is halved.
  This is primarily a PVP focused trait to make Bomb kit a true PBAoE. Bomb kit attacks are now impossible to dodge – you must kite away from the AOE. In addition, the BOB detonation delay being halved will change the way you use BOB and it is now an even bigger threat to clear people off points.
• Change the mechanic to a new trait: Flash Pot. Bomb Kit attacks now Blind foes for 2 seconds for every for every fifth Bomb dropped.
  A new spin on the old Smoke Bomb that brings a new dynamic to Bomb Kit Bunker. Simply auto-attacking will get you a Blind every 2.5 seconds, before Smoke Bomb. This will allow Blind-tanking and still offers the counter-burst of the old Smoke Bomb, but you can still take damage if key components of melee burst still connect. Blind uptime of 80% will shut down slowly attacking foes like Hammer Control Warrior.

This would be a master or grandmaster trait.
Homing Bombs
Bombs move toward the (visible) target or the nearest visible opponent (if no enemy is targeted) after being set.
Their graphical model is changed to reflect the trait (they get legs).

Basically, their delay in activation would become a chance to catch up to the enemy. Obviously they wouldn’t move that much (it all depends on their movement speed) but that should be enough to make them even more an annoyance.

Lol no one gonna mention that rangers get protection on dodge with no cooldown, and in the same tier (minor adept) 50% endurance regeneration? We get robbed at every level compared to other classes.

Raijinn.9065:

Lol no one gonna mention that rangers get protection on dodge with no cooldown, and in the same tier (minor adept) 50% endurance regeneration? We get robbed at every level compared to other classes.

Class by class comparison is hardly a way to go about balance, because each class is supposed to have differentiating traits so they fulfil different design goals. If all classes were given trait parity along the same lines, you’d begin to see class builds that all look startlingly familiar profession to profession.

Engineer can be evasive in a 30 Tools build, but the 50% endurance regeneration is to balance out the Minor traits on the way to 30 Tools: Adrenaline Pump and Enduring Damage. That being said, a Grandmaster, build-defining trait really should do more. In any case, it’s a lot easier to get 100% Swiftness and Vigor through Invigorating Speed and Speedy Kits (10 Alchemy, 10 Tools).

Doesn’t change the fact that we get shafted on every level

The next traitline up for discussion is Firearms
I’ll be honest – this may actually be one of the Engineer’s strongest traitlines. It’s clear to me why I would pick any one of the traits in Firearms – each and every single trait has a purpose in a particular build; be it Pistol or Rifle or FT or EG.

My only complaints about Firearms are the persistent bug that occurs with Rifled Barrels that seems to give Rifle Jump Shot an inordinate amount of air time. Other than that, Firearms is a good solid trait line in a profession that seems to suffer from far too many junk traits.

I do still have issues with Pistol auto-attack being nerfed into the ground, both Power wise and Condition Damage wise, as well as Poison Dart Volley missing entirely too much, even at point blank range. But that is more to do with the actual weapon balance and coding than it is to do with Firearms itself.

It’s nice to see that, engi players, have some ideas how to change our class.

But you guys know. AN dont care.

When there is a healthy discussion between players who find a trait useful, and those who don’t, I think that already says the trait isn’t ‘useless’.
I would reserve the term useless for those traits discussed here already, that we all agree on are extremely weak.

The others might need some work here or there, but aren’t exactly useless.

I add this here because I like the many opinions on these traits, but the discussion is going all directions a bit.
Which doesn’t mean any of those directions isn’t really interesting, but we’re often no longer discussing ‘useless’ but more ‘not strong enough’ or ‘not how I would do it’.

Kimbald.2697:

When there is a healthy discussion between players who find a trait useful, and those who don’t, I think that already says the trait isn’t ‘useless’.
I would reserve the term useless for those traits discussed here already, that we all agree on are extremely weak.

The others might need some work here or there, but aren’t exactly useless.

I add this here because I like the many opinions on these traits, but the discussion is going all directions a bit.
Which doesn’t mean any of those directions isn’t really interesting, but we’re often no longer discussing ‘useless’ but more ‘not strong enough’ or ‘not how I would do it’.

I will say that after the Smoke Bomb nerf, I have virtually seen Autodefense Bomb Dispenser disappear from most posted builds I see. Whilst there is always a component of “not good enough” when discussing traits, there do exist traits that no-one takes, and there are builds that are simply not possible at the moment because of those junk traits.

I started this thread to spur discussion on Junk Traits that no-one uses. You’ll also notice that I mentioned that people should speak up when they did use a trait that I thought useless. This thread is as much a thread aimed at diversifying build possibilities for the Engineer as it is one to encourage more builds by mentioning traits that are under-appreciated. I was made to swallow my words on Shrapnel, for instance.

It wans’t a remark about the topic, or your posts.
I agree there are indeed traits that most agree on are useless.

But at the same time we have posts here discussing about how usefull a trait really is, like the protection traits. but those traits are not considered useless, at worst people find them weaker than others.
those aren’t ‘useless’ but are still good to have discussions and comparisons about.

I like the idea of the topic, and i like how you go over the traits.
All I tried to do was point at a bit of mixed discussions going on. While I actually find most posts here pretty interesting, even if they’re not all discussing ‘useless’ traits.

Anyway, I’d like to move on to the Inventions trait line; starting off with the Minor Traits, once again. The Minor traits for the Inventions trait line are: Low Health Response System, Automated Medical Response and Performance Enhancement.

My issues with the Inventions trait line are manifold, but the Minor trait that rankles me is definitely Low Health Response System. It’s kind of just there on the way to Elixir Infused Bombs because let’s be honest, no-one in their right minds would take Rifled Turret Barrels, anyway. On the other hand, I have no beef with Automated Medical Response or Performance Enhancement.

Low Health Response System grants Regeneration for 10 seconds if you are attacked while under 25% health. It sounds reasonable enough but IMO it is even weaker than Evasive Powder Keg. My reasoning as follows:

• Engineer as a class has many, many 25% health procs, most of them bad. This is another one.
• If you’re at 25% health, and taking Power based damage, an extra 130-280 HP/sec (Range of 0 Healing Power – 1200 Healing Power) really isn’t going to do you much good in a world where even the worst of the Auto attacks easily exceeds that.
• If you’re at 25% health, and taking Condition based damage, Regeneration is not going to be sufficient to stop yourself from Burning, Poisoning, or Bleeding out.

The only case where the Regeneration might save you would be if the Foe could only apply 1, maximum of 2 stacks of bleeding, with negligible Power damage accompanying that. And by negligible, I mean a foe hitting you for less than 88 damage per second. The trait might have been good if Regeneration stacked in intensity, and not duration, but that’s for another thread.

Proposed Changes
As Inventions is the “tanking” trait line, it would be far better for the trait to at least prolong your survival against one particular type of incoming damage, especially at such a low threshold of 25%; rather than doing neither.

• Low Health Response System should instead apply Protection for 3-5 seconds if the Engineer is struck below 25% health. This would prolong our death against Power damage. Internal cooldown could be anywhere from 45-60 seconds.
• Low Health Response System instead cleanses 1-2 conditions at 25% health. I like this change better because Inventions is the Turret trait line, and as we all know, Turret builds have pretty poor condition mitigation. With Turrets as they are, every little bit helps. Internal cooldown could be anywhere from 45-60 seconds.

Raestloz.7134:

Spart.6578:

Have it drop elixir R on a 90 second cooldown.

This has trollface drawn all over it, I like it.

Especially if we’re downed together with an ally in close distance, oh yeah

People would take it, and it would be a bit shorter than the toolbelt revive with 10 points in tools invested, but I figure it would bring in a decent trait that the tools line seems to be lacking. Only a few are really considered in that line with the KR nerf.

MonMalthias.4763:

• Change the mechanic to a new trait: Impact Fusing Bombs now detonate without delay. Big Ol’ Bomb’s detonation delay is halved.
  This is primarily a PVP focused trait to make Bomb kit a true PBAoE. Bomb kit attacks are now impossible to dodge – you must kite away from the AOE. In addition, the BOB detonation delay being halved will change the way you use BOB and it is now an even bigger threat to clear people off points.
• Change the mechanic to a new trait: Flash Pot. Bomb Kit attacks now Blind foes for 2 seconds for every for every fifth Bomb dropped.
  A new spin on the old Smoke Bomb that brings a new dynamic to Bomb Kit Bunker. Simply auto-attacking will get you a Blind every 2.5 seconds, before Smoke Bomb. This will allow Blind-tanking and still offers the counter-burst of the old Smoke Bomb, but you can still take damage if key components of melee burst still connect. Blind uptime of 80% will shut down slowly attacking foes like Hammer Control Warrior.

As someone who is maining bomb kit right in pve, either of those two would be pretty awesome. I would love to have the second one for blind tanking, and could see instant bombs being useful for quicker kills. Might even take bombs in to PvP to give them a shot if they were instant like that.

My own contribution is more about another usefullness than: how certain traits work counterproductive at times.

Kit refinement is a prime example: while it sounds like a multi-kit trait, it actually works worse if you use more than a single trait. Simply because it becomes unreliable with the shared cooldown.

Another one is from the turret discussions: deployable turrets is great for positioning your turrets. Both to put them strategically as to put them out of harms way.
Yet most turrets have short range, so they have to be where you fight.
And turrets target the nearest attackable enemy, so putting them far means you have more chance of the turret shooting at a useless target.
This doesn’t make the trait itself bad, but it makes it counterproductive in any practical setting.

The shield trait (reinforced shield) is great since it helps on the biggest weakness of the shield: the long cooldowns.
But I find it odd that I lose the 60 extra toughness when I swap to a kit. I would expect the trait to make up for the shield armor I already lose by swapping.
The trait is great, it really is. But this one little effect seems a bit odd to me.

The 25% speed in combat is another one.
usually if you need speed boost, it means you’re roaming or running around.
Or kiting of course.
Except for the kiting, it means you want the speed out of combat too.
Most roamers are forced to get swiftness from either elixirs and boon duration, med kit or simply speedy kits.
Again it’s not a bad trait, but if you need speed you usually need it out of combat too.
Few engineers need speed boost for kiting, but don’t need it for moving about.

use these examples as they fit in your general picture or not. it’s just another way of looking at certain traits.

MonMalthias.4763:

• Low Health Response System should instead apply Protection for 3-5 seconds if the Engineer is struck below 25% health. This would prolong our death against Power damage. Internal cooldown could be anywhere from 45-60 seconds.
• Low Health Response System instead cleanses 1-2 conditions at 25% health. I like this change better because Inventions is the Turret trait line, and as we all know, Turret builds have pretty poor condition mitigation. With Turrets as they are, every little bit helps. Internal cooldown could be anywhere from 45-60 seconds.

Either of these could work very well.
The condition removal is probably best given it’s already the high toughness trait line.
But I could live with a protection proc, that would be pretty awesome actually.