Guild Wars 2

Hey guys. I just rolled my engineer and I was wondering if my weapon damage affects how much damage my kits (like flamethrower, grenades) do? Thanks!

No, only the stats (like power, precision etc.) and sigils affect your kits.
As of now all kits have their own “weapon damage” that scales with character level (969 @ lvl 80) and is supposed to be equal to exotic weapons.
This also results in ascended/legendary weapons having less benefit for engineers (and conjure elementalists) than for other classes.

Mork vom Ork.2598:

No, only the stats (like power, precision etc.) and sigils affect your kits.
As of now all kits have their own “weapon damage” that scales with character level (969 @ lvl 80) and is supposed to be equal to exotic weapons.
This also results in ascended/legendary weapons having less benefit for engineers (and conjure elementalists) than for other classes.

Any plan to fix this?

Knighthonor.4061:

Any plan to fix this?

How do you fix that which is not broken?

Switch.4892:

Knighthonor.4061:

Any plan to fix this?

How do you fix that which is not broken?

A bicycle may not be broken, but you don’t want to enter a race with it against a car.
Working as intended does not change the fact that we are comparatively weaker when using our kits than other classes due to this fact.

Seras.5702:

A bicycle may not be broken, but you don’t want to enter a race with it against a car.
Working as intended does not change the fact that we are comparatively weaker when using our kits than other classes due to this fact.

I can agree they should change it, but the ridiculous hyperbole is a bit unnecessary.

Making kits dependant on weapon damage would force every kit user to play Rifle because of having a higher damage than Pistol. Not a good idea, IMO.

The only thing they could do would be to make it based on weapon RARITY and not weapon damage. Exotic weapon of any type gives you the current damage rating. Ascended weapon of any type equipped gives you a higher damage rating equivalent to the difference between Exotic weapons and Ascended / Legendary weapons.

Whether or not such a change is possible in the game engine is the question, though.

coglin.1867:

Seras.5702:

A bicycle may not be broken, but you don’t want to enter a race with it against a car.
Working as intended does not change the fact that we are comparatively weaker when using our kits than other classes due to this fact.

I can agree they should change it, but the ridiculous hyperbole is a bit unnecessary.

I wouldn’t call it ridiculous hyperbole, but rather an analogy to illustrate the difference between broken and effective. I find differences of opinions on specific topics are often times simply a matter of perspective. I was trying to clearly explain mine.

Electro.4173:

Making kits dependant on weapon damage would force every kit user to play Rifle because of having a higher damage than Pistol. Not a good idea, IMO.
.

Having 2 one handers gives an extra sigil slot that makes up for the lesser damage. It balances out in the end.

The fix is actually this easy and would balance all bundle type weapons for all classes.

Anyway, the kit damage should not be the same for exotic and for ascendend/legendary weapons.

Seras.5702:

Working as intended does not change the fact that we are comparatively weaker when using our kits than other classes due to this fact.

Really? My Bomb Kit has no issues outdamaging my Sword/Focus Guardian. In full ascended. And though I can’t say which is ultimately better, the Bomb Kit definitely does nearly identical damage to my Warrior’s axe (which is also ascended).

Power coefficients play a much larger role in overall DPS than weapon strength. This is why Elementalist conjured weapons, despite also having 969 weapon damage, are so incredible.

I wonder why you are conveniently forgetting that those other weapons you mention have also got damaging skills on their 2-5 slots, where we deal just conditions with those ones – the direct damage with #2 and #3 is negligible, #4 and #5 deal no direct damage at all.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Seras.5702:

Working as intended does not change the fact that we are comparatively weaker when using our kits than other classes due to this fact.

Really? My Bomb Kit has no issues outdamaging my Sword/Focus Guardian. In full ascended. And though I can’t say which is ultimately better, the Bomb Kit definitely does nearly identical damage to my Warrior’s axe (which is also ascended).

You might see bigger hits per single bomb, but overall, Guard sword and Warr axe will outdamage bomb kit throughout their respective attack chains overall, with Guard sword roughly equal to Warr axe. This is all assuming you’re speeced into full dps with all three classes in zerker gear.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Seras.5702:

Working as intended does not change the fact that we are comparatively weaker when using our kits than other classes due to this fact.

Really? My Bomb Kit has no issues outdamaging my Sword/Focus Guardian. In full ascended. And though I can’t say which is ultimately better, the Bomb Kit definitely does nearly identical damage to my Warrior’s axe (which is also ascended).

Power coefficients play a much larger role in overall DPS than weapon strength. This is why Elementalist conjured weapons, despite also having 969 weapon damage, are so incredible.

While that’s true about coefficients, you can’t deny the fact that your guardian and warrior deal more damage with ascended weapons than they do with exotics. Meanwhile, upgrading my exotic rifle to ascended does not improve the damage of my bombs. You can’t pick a random kit & random weapon and compare their damage. That’s like saying that my thief’s dagger out-damages my ranger’s axe. That’s by design. But increasing either from exotic to ascended will increase their respective damage output.

When ascended weapons released it was nice because all the kits had ascended stats, but they patched that quick =/ exotic stats for kits forever….

Manuhell.2759:

I wonder why you are conveniently forgetting that those other weapons you mention have also got damaging skills on their 2-5 slots, where we deal just conditions with those ones – the direct damage with #2 and #3 is negligible, #4 and #5 deal no direct damage at all.

Not sure what you mean by this.

Zealot’s Defense is worse DPS than the auto-attack. And Cyclone Axe is purely for stacking Vulnerability.

AsmallChicken.9634:

You might see bigger hits per single bomb, but overall, Guard sword and Warr axe will outdamage bomb kit throughout their respective attack chains overall, with Guard sword roughly equal to Warr axe. This is all assuming you’re speeced into full dps with all three classes in zerker gear.

I don’t see how that can possibly be the case.

Sword of Wrath and Sword Arc only scale by 80% of your Power. For the sake of simplicity, let’s say you have 1 Power. Let’s also say you’re attacking a mob with 1 Armor (to avoid division). Ascended Sword has 1050 weapon strength. Bomb Kit has 969.

Weapon Strength x Power x Coefficient = Damage

969 × 1 × 1.25 = 1211.25

1050 × 1 × 0.80 = 840

Sword Wave is in fact the only skill of the chain that outdoes the Bomb Kit, doing:

1050 × 1 × 1.5 = 1575

But given the fact that the entire attack chain takes 2.5 seconds, the Bomb Kit still does more DPS. This is further compounded by the fact that Bomb Kit Engineers can take the full 30 points for 300 Power and the full 30 Tools for 30% Critical Damage. S/F Guardians don’t. In fact, they can’t.

Powerful Blades + Radiant Power help contribute, but Engineer has traits equal to these through Target The Maimed and Explosive Powder. The new Modified Ammo trait will also completely outperform Elusive Power, though I still don’t see how that makes up the difference already.

Edit: Just realized, actually, that my calculations were off. 1H weapon strength is averaged between the two weapons (Ascended Focus being 927), meaning S/F Guardians have 988 weapon damage, not 1050. I think you can imagine without my displaying the numbers what this means.

Seras.5702:

But increasing either from exotic to ascended will increase their respective damage output.

Certainly, but that wasn’t what your argument was nor was that the source of my dispute.

So you’re basically making a comparison using a defensive weapon set without trait points spent versus our most damaging kit with trait points spent (and not even all in the bomb traits).
I can’t exactly think about it being a fair comparison.

Regarding my post above, the point is simple: unlike other real weapons, bomb and grenade skills #2…#5 just deal conditions (and not necessarily damaging ones) and a negligible amount of direct damage. Whereas other weapons can deal spikes of damage (compared to the autoattack) with those, or at least more than the normal autoattack.
So if you compare just the autoattacks, you’re doing a wrong comparison – as we are supposed to rely on them more than any other class, thus they’ve made it a bit stronger to make up for the #2…#5 skills (probably per balance purposes, as in putting strong skills in any #2…#5 kit slot would have made a kit build overpowered).

Manuhell.2759:

So you’re basically making a comparison using a defensive weapon set without trait points spent versus our most damaging kit with trait points spent (and not even all in the bomb traits). I can’t exactly think about it being a fair comparison.

The sword is not a defensive weapon. It’s the highest damage dealing weapon for Guardians.

Manuhell.2759:

Regarding my post above, the point is simple: unlike other real weapons, bomb and grenade skills #2…#5 just deal conditions (and not necessarily damaging ones) and a negligible amount of direct damage. Whereas other weapons can deal spikes of damage (compared to the autoattack) with those, or at least more than the normal autoattack.

Err … what? Shrapnel Grenade and Freeze Grenade do more direct damage than Grenade.

Whether or not the Bomb Kit deals direct damage with all of its skills or just one is really beside the point. The sword’s best attack is its auto-attack, the same as the axe. So comparing their auto-attacks to the Bomb Kit’s is more than appropriate.

I don’t know if you have any experience playing a Warrior, but maximizing the axe is literally spamming the auto-attack chain. Fit in a Cyclone Axe and Crushing Blow between chains when they’re available, but that’s purely for Vulnerability stacking. And against bosses with Defiant, I wouldn’t even bother. You shouldn’t ever use your Burst skill either, unless you need the Endurance return to dodge something.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Seras.5702:

But increasing either from exotic to ascended will increase their respective damage output.

Certainly, but that wasn’t what your argument was nor was that the source of my dispute.

I’ll concede that.

I didn’t mean that engineers are inherently weaker than other classes. Simply that we did not receive the same boost every other class did when ascended weapons were introduced. Which makes each engineer build with ascended comparatively weaker to other classes with ascended than the same builds with exotics.

Phineas Poe.3018:

The sword is not a defensive weapon. It’s the highest damage dealing weapon for Guardians.

Considering the #2 skill deals little damage, but teleports and blinds, and the #3 blocks hits (albeit dealing a good amount of damage around you), i wouldn’t exactly talk about it as an offensive weapon. And the focus is even more defensive.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Err … what? Shrapnel Grenade and Freeze Grenade do more direct damage than Grenade.

Whether or not the Bomb Kit deals direct damage with all of its skills or just one is really beside the point. The sword’s best attack is its auto-attack, the same as the axe. So comparing their auto-attacks to the Bomb Kit’s is more than appropriate.

I don’t know if you have any experience playing a Warrior, but maximizing the axe is literally spamming the auto-attack chain. Fit in a Cyclone Axe and Crushing Blow between chains when they’re available, but that’s purely for Vulnerability stacking. And against bosses with Defiant, I wouldn’t even bother. You shouldn’t ever use your Burst skill either, unless you need the Endurance return to dodge something.

You’re right about those two grenades’ damage, albeit what i said is still true for bombs.
But you still seem to have missed the point. And those skills you mention are still better than the bombs counterparts, even if just for how they complement the weapon itself – the damage and area vulnerability given by the cyclone axe, for example. Still, the main point is that we don’t have – we can’t, for balance reasons – have any sort of high-direct damage skill in our kits, and neither multiple skills with moderate damage. It is just logic – by having multiple kits, we could just rotate between them, thus being terribly unbalanced.
Thus they resorted in giving a good autoattack, and putting conditions (thus fixed damage over time) on the other slots. Thus having sustained damage, rather than bursts. At least for the proper weapon kits.
Sure, not every kit follows this pattern. The flamethrower has a sort of burst on #2…but to compensate for that, the remaining skills offer no direct damage, for example.
In the end, the matter is that we have good damage in the autoattacks just because it is the only way they could distribute said damage in our weapons.

Manuhell.2759:

Considering the #2 skill deals little damage, but teleports and blinds, and the #3 blocks hits (albeit dealing a good amount of damage around you), i wouldn’t exactly talk about it as an offensive weapon. And the focus is even more defensive.

OK. I see that you don’t play a Berserker Guardian. You should have said that from the very beginning. So let me explain.

The blinds are not for defense. Blinds are absolutely useless against bosses with Unshakable. Flashing Blade and Ray of Judgment are used to proc Blind Exposure. You use those skills to stack Vulnerability. Shield of Wrath is not used for defense, though the blocks do help if you’re fighting something like Slave Driver with multi-hit attacks. You primarily use it as a blast finisher for stacking Might.

You should never use Zealot’s Defense. Ever. Unless you feel like looking cool. Maximizing Guardian DPS is entirely about getting Sword Wave off as much as possible, as I indicated in the previous post. Sword of Wrath and Sword Arc are mediocre damage dealers, but Sword Wave is pretty incredible. Just like how the new Warrior axe is about getting that final hit of Triple Chop off for maximum DPS, Sword Wave has always been the cream of the sword’s DPS crop.

Zealot’s Defense is a channeled attack with a 2.5 Power coefficient, but it has a 3 second duration. For the same reason Flame Jet sucks on Engineer, Zealot’s Defense operates by the same logic. It’s really best used in situations like the Harpy Fractal when you have Wall of Reflection or Shield of the Avenger down, for reflecting projectiles.

You argue that the focus is a defensive weapon, but it offers Vulnerability and a blast finisher (for Might). Compared to what the torch and shield offer, it’s actually the most offensive off-hand weapon Guardian has.

Manuhell.2759:

In the end, the matter is that we have good damage in the autoattacks just because it is the only way they could distribute said damage in our weapons.

The Bomb Kit’s damage is distributed a lot further than that. It’d be nice if Fire Bomb was more like Lava Font, but remember that pulsing AoE bombs like Glue Bomb and Fire Bomb tick Vulnerability stacks. You should be regularly using #2 and #5 as they are available (especially Glue Bomb for Sitting Duck), and not just spamming the auto-attack.

But I don’t see it a problem that the Bomb Kit is a sustained DPS build since burst damage is useless in PvE. If you really want burst damage that badly, go with Static Discharge.

I’m assuming that the comparison is between a engineer build of 20/25/0/0/25 (once modified ammunition gets its upgrade in the next patch) 10%(enduring damage) 10%(modified ammunition assuming 5 conditions) 5% (target the maimed) 10% (explosive powder)
compared against a guardian’s 10/30/0/0/10 (if someone else could put in the other 20 points would be appreciated haven’t played my zerk guard in a while) possible damage modifiers 20% (Unscathed Contender) 5% (powerful blades) 10% (radiant power) 10% (fiery wrath) If a guard can keep up unscathed contender the modifiers will make it hit quite a bit harder
[on a side note one handed strength far outshines target the weak for crit chance, and scope is useless if you are only using bomb kit]
this does not include the benefit that engineers get though through their more offensive stat points in their trait lines.

all of this being said I still completely agree that kits, conjured weapons, and banners should all be upgraded to ascended damage since you will now be capable of having a full set of ascended gear.

10/30/0/25/5 is supposedly the max DPS build for Sword Guardians, but if you’re the only Guardian in the group I don’t see how you can run without Master of Consecrations, especially in FOTM.

Most just run 0/30/0/30/10.

hmm I wonder why that is considered the highest dps build for guards, I know unscathed contender could be hard to keep up but if I remember correctly focus 5 blocks have to be broken before aegis can be removed.

Either way thank you for the information as I said earlier I don’t run guard much anymore.

Shield of Wrath doesn’t give aegis.

I know but it’s blocks are removed before aegis is, so if you already have your passive aegis on as a guardian it allows you to screw up and still keep your damage boost is what I was saying. if you get what I mean.

Well… it really feels like a hit in the face. Because i got through all the trouble to get my hands on a legendary weapon. But I’m an engineer so i use my kits off course. BUT when ever i equip a kit not only is my legendary absolutely useless regarding the damage, but every tool-belt-skill like big bomb and grenade barrage suffers from that.
This should NOT be the case. Why did i get a legendary when A-net don*t let me use its power, instead we*re stuck with exotic power? Why? There is no reason. please fix this.

Simple. As the base damage of weapons increases per set you increase the base factor for the kits. If a kit used exotic weapon factor and now there is ascended, then upon a certain threshold of folks having ascended OR upon a certain date after the release of ascended you bump up the kit’s damage. Doesn’t have to be immediate, but for weapons it is now time.

Fiedi.3297:

Well… it really feels like a hit in the face. Because i got through all the trouble to get my hands on a legendary weapon. But I’m an engineer so i use my kits off course. BUT when ever i equip a kit not only is my legendary absolutely useless regarding the damage, but every tool-belt-skill like big bomb and grenade barrage suffers from that.
This should NOT be the case. Why did i get a legendary when A-net don*t let me use its power, instead we*re stuck with exotic power? Why? There is no reason. please fix this.

Actually tool belt skill damage is based on your weapon, even if you have the kit equipped. The tool tip changes if you equip a kit, but the damage does not. You can easily test it: equip a white lvl 1 weapon and hit the dummies in Lion’s Arch with your toolbelt skills with weapon/kit equipped.