Guild Wars 2

I`ve recently read and heard a lot of crap about the kit refinement nerf and how it supposedly works most of it was BS

^I`ve seen this"theory" pop up a few times now that jumping while kit swapping avoids the GCD of kit refinement.

I tested this and it is simply not true – same thing with times for some stuff on kit refinement that has been posted.

The kit refinement nerf currently only applies to flamethrower and elxir gun (probably BUG!). The GCD does not apply when using kit refinement with tool kit or grenades so 100nades is currently unaffected by this.

I tested switching into the flamethrower and elixir gun whil jumping – while it is true that the kit refinement skill does not activate it STILL activates the GCD.

The INTERNAL cooldown still applies as well when using the kit normally! So when switching into elixir gun there is a GCD with 10 seconds on all kit refinement activation PLUS a 20 second cooldown on the activation of kit refinement for Elixir gun (maybe bad choice of words do not “add” the cooldowns together! The result is simply that you can use the elixir gun kit refinement skill after 20 sec after activation while using med kit or other kit refinement skills after 10secs after using elixir gun kit refinement skill).

Edit: Jump swapping only procs the GCD of 10 seconds not the kit specific internal cooldown^tested and verfied thx to kardiamond.

The CD on nade kit is also the same at 20 seconds and not 10 like some self proclaimed “pros” told me yesterday.

And as that is true i think that as soon as the bug that the nerf doesnt affect nade kit is fixed i`m reasonably sure that nade kit will work the same as elixir gun and STILL HAVE ITS OWN internal cooldown in ADDITION to the GCD.

Edit: thxto gimmethepgegun
When elixir gun is on local cooldown but the global cooldown ended you can actually reequip the elixir gun WITHOUT having the elixir gun kit refinement skill activate but STILL activating another global cooldown (local cooldown does not apply again though!). This can not happen with the flamethrower though because the FTs local internal cooldown is only 10 seconds to begin with (the same as GCD for kit refinement in general)

^Tested and verified – no BS – feel free to tell me otherwise if there is a “specific” type of jump i have to do or something like that. I doubt it though.

When I’m using grenade, I use jump/swap a lot to use grenade at long range without proccing the barrage.

Now it will be a pain to always have to proc the 10 sec timer.

I still pretty much hate that nerf, and I’m still waiting for Anet to explain it to us.

^Yup as soon as they implement the GCD for grenades and tool kit as well as was actually intended with the last patch it will be a huge pain.

I honestly dont think that 100nades is a good build to begin with when compared to other burst classes.

So in the end it remains as a versatility nerf and not a olololol burst nerf imho

The order in wich you use kits also plays a role.
But this is probably because it’s mainly EG and FT proccing before you use another kit, and that other kit not proccing the cooldown if used BEFORE EG or FT.

I’ll go test this ‘order’ a bit myself. Just to see if there isn’t anything else odd going on.

Bottom line for me: the trait has become pretty unreliable now as soon as you use more than 1 kit and don’t always swap in the same order or in the same time-span.

Multi-kit users tend to swap kits all the time, we hardly wait 10 seconds at all before swapping.
For this playstyle the new Kit Refinement is now pretty annoying to keep track of.

I use FT and EG together since the very traits boosting them boost BOTH.
I spend 2 times 20 trait points on that…
But suddenly the devs figured we shouldn’t use them both or something?

So now in a fight, I get one or the other to proc. Luckily they both remove a condition still, so either way I get that (once, not twice) but when I need a healing light field I no longer am sure I didn’t waste it on an aoe burn before…

And also: if I want a condition removed I need to keep track of which I should swap to: is it time for the EG or the FT proc?
other ways to remove conditions… just saying kit refinement is no longer reliable in multi-kit builds.

Anet:I heard you like hidden internal cooldowns, so we put some hidden internal cooldowns on your hidden internal cooldowns.

Engineers: QQ

On a serious note, hidden internal cooldowns on hidden internal cooldowns is bad game design. It is like Arena Net is trying hard to not become a esport. There are more approiate ways to nerf kit refinement. This is not one of them. My hope is Arena Net will revisit this change during the March patch.

It wouldnt surprise me if they didn’t change it. Doesn’t Flamethrower and Elixir Gun have condition removals on their kit refinement? Maybe they just want to slow down that part of the trait.

Does it proc a GCD if it is on cooldown, either global or local?

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Does it proc a GCD if it is on cooldown, either global or local?

very good question!

I just tested it and yes! This is a huge issue imo!

When elixir gun is on local cooldown but the global cooldown ended you can actually reequip the elixir gun WITHOUT having the elixir gun kit refinement skill activate but STILL activating another global cooldown (local cooldown does not apply again though!). This can not happen with the flamethrower though because the FTs local internal cooldown is only 10 seconds to begin with (the same as GCD for kit refinement in general)

Both cooldowns seem to be working absolutely seperately without knowing of each other. Local Cooldowns in general only seem to activate when the kit refinement skill actually activates while GCD activates whenever you equip a kit for which the GCD is curretnly working regardless of anything else you might be doing while swapping to that kit.

Will edit that into the original post

BrimstoneAshe.5043:

It wouldnt surprise me if they didn’t change it. Doesn’t Flamethrower and Elixir Gun have condition removals on their kit refinement? Maybe they just want to slow down that part of the trait.

if this was the case, than why not simply remove cond removal on EG proc, so that EG kit doesn’t have 2 from double Super Elixir, and FT still has 1…?

Even for 100nades we can find many simple solutions if they wanted to adress that.

They took the worse solution, and than even made it less reliable than that!

RaynStargaze.6510:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Does it proc a GCD if it is on cooldown, either global or local?

very good question!

I just tested it and yes! This is a huge issue imo!

When elixir gun is on local cooldown but the global cooldown ended you can actually reequip the elixir gun WITHOUT having the elixir gun kit refinement skill activate but STILL activating another global cooldown (local cooldown does not apply again though!). This can not happen with the flamethrower though because the FTs local internal cooldown is only 10 seconds to begin with (the same as GCD for kit refinement in general)

Both cooldowns seem to be working absolutely seperately without knowing of each other.

Will edit that into the original post

Sometimes I hate it when I’m right
/headdesk

gimmethegepgun.1284:

/headdesk

i second that

As long as we’re being thorough, does it affect Speedy Kits, or vice versa?
Also, since I know Explosive Descent causes Grenade’s KR to go on cooldown, is it involved at all either?

RaynStargaze.6510:

I`ve recently read and heard a lot of crap about the kit refinement nerf and how it supposedly works most of it was BS

Then perhaps read things more carefully, which kits it affected, that jumping proced the GCD, etc was all posted in threads within two hours of the patch.

I had a feeling the procs were a mess even beyond a simple internal cooldown.
As I said over and over again: the trait feels so dam unreliable now.

Seems you guys hit the nail on the head as to why this feels so much worse now.

If the cooldowns work even seperate from each other, there is no end to keep track of what has happened, what should have happened, what could happen, or what should happen on your next kit swap…

For now some kits are efected and some not. Not even the patch notes are accurate in that regard.
So we can’t even figure out how it should work, if the patch notes would be correct.
At best we can figure out workarounds for the current effects.

But my main question is: why?
Seriously: WHY?
So many better ways to adress the area’s where this trait could be too strong…

Were multi-kit engineers really so OP you had to nerf a core trait for them Devs?
Because that is what you’ve done: you have hurt the most VERSATILE of engineer builds!
And guess what: those were the weakest of all engineer builds already…

gimmethegepgun.1284:

As long as we’re being thorough, does it affect Speedy Kits, or vice versa?
Also, since I know Explosive Descent causes Grenade’s KR to go on cooldown, is it involved at all either?

Luckily speedy kits is on its own cd so no problems with that.

Grenades currently dont activate the GCD even though they should be (patch notes). So explosive decent just procs the local internal CD for grenades kit refinement skill but no GCD.

Sylosi.6503:

RaynStargaze.6510:

I`ve recently read and heard a lot of crap about the kit refinement nerf and how it supposedly works most of it was BS

Then perhaps read things more carefully, which kits it affected, that jumping proced the GCD, etc was all posted in threads within two hours of the patch.

Just because i know how something works (and in retrospect i really didnt know it to full extent especially the elixir gun part) doesnt mean that everyone else does —> result a lot of crap written on forum on kit refinement as i said – hence this thread

DEEEEERRRRRp

RaynStargaze.6510:

Just because i know how something works (and in retrospect i really didnt know it to full extent especially the elixir gun part) doesnt mean that everyone else does —> result a lot of crap written on forum on kit refinement as i said – hence this thread

DEEEEERRRRRp

And no doubt the same people that failed to read the threads that have already explained how it works, will fail to read this one, so deeerrrrppp yourself.

@Sylvosi

What is the point of your post? You only wanted to call him out? If you felt that his post was useless, then don’t read it. A lot of long times Engineer have posted in this thread, and we much appreciate what Rayn did.

All those information about the new nerf were all posted in different thread. I, for one, had difficulties following them all. Some said things, others said others things. Some were false, some were true.

I’m happy to have a thread that resume it all. Especially since we learned the GCD proc even if the ability doesn’t proc(already on cooldown).

On subject, they prolly used the worse patch to nerf kit refinement.

I’m still hoping for Anet to post about it!

Sylosi.6503:

RaynStargaze.6510:

Just because i know how something works (and in retrospect i really didnt know it to full extent especially the elixir gun part) doesnt mean that everyone else does —> result a lot of crap written on forum on kit refinement as i said – hence this thread

And no doubt the same people that failed to read the threads that have already explained how it works, will fail to read this one, so deeerrrrppp yourself.

Lol XD

This whole KR nerf/mess is pretty representative of the Engineer class as a whole. Something is done to the class but its not really thought out nor even tested to make sure its working right in the first place.

And yet while changes like this occur, bugs like the Scope trait are still not fixed after 6 months.

RaynStargaze.6510:

Grenades are currently unaffected by the GCD even though they should be (patch notes). So explosive decent just procs the local internal CD for grenades kit refinement skill but no GCD.

Not quite. I did some testing myself about a week ago, and already posted it here:

What I’ve learned about Kit Refinement (KR) so far:
1. Med kit and tool kit are completely unaffected by the change. Med kit is instant, tool kit is every 10 seconds regardless of what you’re doing with the other kits.

2. FT KR has a 10 second cooldown, which it shares with other KR. Meaning, if you use the FT KR, it will be 10 seconds before you can use ANY other KR (including med kit and Tool Kit)

3. If you use grenade KR, it will be 20 seconds before you can grenade KR again.

4. If you use grenade KR, you can immediately do a bomb, FT, or EG, Tool Kit, or Med Kit.

5. Elixir Gun’s KR has a 20 second cooldown, which it shares with other KR. Meaning, if you use the EG KR, it will be 20 seconds before you can use ANY other KR.

The grenade KR is affected, but only if you try to use it twice in a row.

Silentsins.3726:

RaynStargaze.6510:

Grenades are currently unaffected by the GCD even though they should be (patch notes). So explosive decent just procs the local internal CD for grenades kit refinement skill but no GCD.

Not quite. I did some testing myself about a week ago, and already posted it here:

What I’ve learned about Kit Refinement (KR) so far:
1. Med kit and tool kit are completely unaffected by the change. Med kit is instant, tool kit is every 10 seconds regardless of what you’re doing with the other kits.

2. FT KR has a 10 second cooldown, which it shares with other KR. Meaning, if you use the FT KR, it will be 10 seconds before you can use ANY other KR (including med kit and Tool Kit)

3. If you use grenade KR, it will be 20 seconds before you can grenade KR again.

4. If you use grenade KR, you can immediately do a bomb, FT, or EG, Tool Kit, or Med Kit.

5. Elixir Gun’s KR has a 20 second cooldown, which it shares with other KR. Meaning, if you use the EG KR, it will be 20 seconds before you can use ANY other KR.

The grenade KR is affected, but only if you try to use it twice in a row.

I have no clue what youre on about but the local internal cooldown on grenade KR has always been 20 seconds.

And with that in mind you are of course always able to follow up with any other kits KR instantly because grenade kit does not proc the global internal cooldown and of course you cant use grenade KR two times in a row because it is then affected by its own (grenade) local internal cd.

^which is exactly what i said to begin with

@RaynStargaze
Great work.

More evidence that the latest patch didn’t balance Kit Refinement, it broke it. :-(

@ArenaNet
Kit Refinement is now broken and needs fixing. If you need to prevent KR from spamming multiple effects in less than a second, then replace the Global Cooldown on specific kits with a 1s or 2s GCD that is only triggered when a KR effect procs. If the problem is that some KR effects are too powerful, then balance those.