Guild Wars 2

Kits are much more than just a type of utility skill. They are part of the engineer core mechanics as much as attunments are part of Eles and pets are part of Rangers.

Kits are there to cover for the fact that engi can’t swap weapons, so you can use a kit to swap to new weapon skills to cover your weapon deficiency (range, defense, utility, AoE, Melee, etc)

Despite that, the Scraper never got a kit.

Its quite clear that no one is ever going to get a elite spec based on kits (or summoned weapons), as that would mean creating 25 new skills (5 kits), plus the new weapon ones and class mechanics…

But, I honestly think Engi should get one new kit with each elite spec.
Just like druids got new pets, engies should get new kits too!

Imagine if crapper had a kit called “remote control” that would send your function gyro to do things around (attack, buff, block, refuel an active gyro, etc), finaly you could have a use for it in PvE.

So, do you think engi elite specs should get new kits, as part of their class mechanic?

yes we should get new kits. And kits shouldn’t just be seen as utilities. But as the core mechanic that they really are.

yes Yes and YES!!

Every elite spec should add at least one kit.

Its the best way to expand engi.

Agree. Kits needs to be balanced. And the way to balance them is to make them truly central.

I know that kits get used heavily in the meta builds, and I think that’s because we have a basically zero cooldown on switching between kits. If the kits had the cooldown of the attunements for ele, I think we would see more build diversity in engineer (and yes this would require a massive amount of rebalancing). I like the idea of kits, but it is an overwhelming skill, to the point that all other utility skills are only used for niche situations.

Personally I prefer getting new types of utility skills, leave toolbelt as the class mechanic, and diversify and rebalance things so we have more build diversity beyond “load all the kits and the healing turret”.

bearshaman.3421:

I know that kits get used heavily in the meta builds, and I think that’s because we have a basically zero cooldown on switching between kits. If the kits had the cooldown of the attunements for ele, I think we would see more build diversity in engineer (and yes this would require a massive amount of rebalancing). I like the idea of kits, but it is an overwhelming skill, to the point that all other utility skills are only used for niche situations.

Personally I prefer getting new types of utility skills, leave toolbelt as the class mechanic, and diversify and rebalance things so we have more build diversity beyond “load all the kits and the healing turret”.

Please go play ele.

The gameplay of having access too all your tools is as integral to engi as kits and toolbelt themselves.

The only place where you load up all kits and healing turret is viper engi in raids. And there are many more builds, gamemodes and ways to play engi. The reason for that specific example is only because all of our other utilites offer nothing in a PvE group setting. That is not kit’s fault for bringing damage but the fault of turrets, gyros, and gadgets for not offering anything.

This is probably not going to sound that good… but maybe the toolbelt and the kits should be mutually exclusive.
Example: Kits don’t give you a toolbelt skill anymore. If you take 3 kits, you gain 15 skills you can swap in the weapon area, but your toolbelt also have 3 empty slots.

Another posibility: when you swap to a kit, your toolbelt is replaced with that kit skills. You keep the weapon available, but your toolbelt remains unreachable unless you put down the kit. (This may be even worse than now, but its just an idea).

Yet another posibility: The toolbelt is replaced by 3 slots only for kits. Kits can’t be put in the utility bar, and you can equip max 3. All the toolbelt skills for non-kit skills become a second press of the same skill button (or something like that).

A simple solution would be to add one new kit to every new specialisation and put the new kits in the elite slot. That way you have to make a well balanced decision whether to take say mortar kit or the new one. I believe this is one way to add new kits without making things unbalanced.

edgewalker.2903:

A simple solution would be to add one new kit to every new specialisation and put the new kits in the elite slot. That way you have to make a well balanced decision whether to take say mortar kit or the new one. I believe this is one way to add new kits without making things unbalanced.

Very, very, very smart.

This thread makes my head hurt.

Specializations add new utility sets, not add onto existing sets. Warriors didn’t get new shouts, elementalists didn’t get new glyphs, and engineers didn’t get new kits.

The purpose of adding future elite specializations is to expand the class into new directions, and give us a new playstyle the profession didn’t have before. Not to be rude but there are already multiple suggestion threads and this conversation is seriously pointless and misunderstands the actual purpose elite specializations.

And +1 to just go play ele if you want cooldowns on kits, or want kits in our toolbelt. Seriously, wtf?

Phineas Poe.3018:

Specializations add new utility sets, not add onto existing sets. Warriors didn’t get new shouts, elementalists didn’t get new glyphs, and engineers didn’t get new kits.

The purpose of adding future elite specializations is to expand the class into new directions, and give us a new playstyle the profession didn’t have before. Not to be rude but there are already multiple suggestion threads and this conversation is seriously pointless and misunderstands the actual purpose elite specializations.

If your head hurts, leave the computer and go take a rest.

Sorry, but kits are much more than just another utility skill.
They are a core mechanic for engi just as much as the toolbelt, or as ranger pets, or warrior burst skills, or ele attunements.

Classes are not limited to one, and only one, mechanic. Thieves have steal and initiative, revs have legend swap and energy… Some class mechanics are spetial skills (f1-5) some are not…

Engi kits are a way to suplement the lack of weapon swap and to give the class the adaptability it has.

Druids get new pets, Berserk gets new burst skills for all weapons, necro gets a new shroud, and so on and so forth…

No other elite spec will ever get kits as its core utility. Too much work to make 5 kits in one go.
But if engi elite specs could get one kit each, it would greatly improve them.

For example:
Scrapper kit: Remote control -> Actively controls your function gyro. Needs function gyro to be available.
(Scrapper hammer is focused on melee defense and control, a good combo with it would be a ranged option)

1. -> Shoot – your function gyro shoots a projectile at your target. (900 range, RoF similar to riffle, dmg lower than riffle AA)
2. -> Lock on – your function gyro flies toward your target and shoots a volley of scrap bullets. (gyro flies a max of 300 than fires with 900 range. each hit causes bleeding)
3. -> Trip – your function gyro flies towards your target and explodes on its legs. Short Knocksdown and cripple. (activates gyro destruction traits, function gyro on CD)
4. -> Defend – your function gyro flies around you. The next attack that would hit you will instead destroy the function gyro (activates gyro destruction traits, function gyro on CD)
5. -> Refuel flight – your function gyro refuels your active gyros. The amount of refuel depends on the number of active gyros: 1 gyro-100%, 4 gyros – 25% each. Function gyro explodes (activates gyro destruction traits, function gyro on CD)

There, now scrapper can use its function gyro on PvE to supplement its lack of range or to help it with gyros. Heck you can even make #5 heal/OC turrets too…

lLobo.7960:

Sorry, but kits are much more than just another utility skill.
They are a core mechanic for engi just as much as the toolbelt, or as ranger pets, or warrior burst skills, or ele attunements.

There is a pretty obvious difference between engi kits and everything else you mention here in that toolbelt skills, pets, burst skills, and attunements aren’t optional. They’re ingrained, core aspects of their given profession that you cannot remove—hence their title as a “core” class mechanic.

And unlike all of what I’ve mentioned, kits aren’t an ingrained, core aspect of the profession. They’re certainly powerful utilities, and just like warrior banners and guardian consecrations, they get an inordinate amount of attention compared to other options, but that doesn’t make them a core mechanic—and there’s nothing stopping ArenaNet from releasing kits on another profession in the next expansion, or putting banners in engineer.

lLobo.7960:

Classes are not limited to one, and only one, mechanic. Thieves have steal and initiative, revs have legend swap and energy… Some class mechanics are spetial skills (f1-5) some are not…

You’re right that classes often have more than one “core” mechanic, and that sometimes relates to a managed resource like adrenaline/rage, astral power, energy, and initiative. Illusions, in fact, could arguably be both a core mechanic and a skill resource.

Engineer does, in fact, have more than one “core” profession mechanic, but it’s not kits; it’s the toolbelt and the function gyro. And this is what you’re not understanding.

The purpose of elite specializations is to add new, different things to the profession—or enhance existing core mechanics (e.g., rage or continuum split). So yes, rangers got new pets, warriors got new burst skills, and engineers got new toolbelt skills and the function gyro.

It’s also true that engineers don’t have a weapon swap, and it’s true that’s arguably because of kits, but that doesn’t mean that kits are a core profession mechanic, and it doesn’t mean that they can’t add a specialization down the road that locks us out of kits while granting us weapon swap.

I think the great fault of Anet with new specialisations was that they invented new skills types, and not provided skills with already existing types inside class specific trees. While with some classes it works (Shouts, traps, and glyphs are ok), but with other (Rage – because we don’t know what call more physical skills, Thief physical – really so much physical is throwing impairing daggers (are you a wimp), or taking this shield out of your behind, Gyros – just… terrible…)

I would love for engi geting new kit, along with gadget, turret, elixir. As much as other classes getting new stuff for their base skills).

Gyros aren’t anything new. They are just mobile turrets, or stupider minions.
Kits are optional, that is true: IMO, that is the first mistake Anet made with Engie.

Phineas Poe.3018:

lLobo.7960:

Sorry, but kits are much more than just another utility skill.
They are a core mechanic for engi just as much as the toolbelt, or as ranger pets, or warrior burst skills, or ele attunements.

There is a pretty obvious difference between engi kits and everything else you mention here in that toolbelt skills, pets, burst skills, and attunements aren’t optional. They’re ingrained, core aspects of their given profession that you cannot remove—hence their title as a “core” class mechanic.

And unlike all of what I’ve mentioned, kits aren’t an ingrained, core aspect of the profession. They’re certainly powerful utilities, and just like warrior banners and guardian consecrations, they get an inordinate amount of attention compared to other options, but that doesn’t make them a core mechanic—and there’s nothing stopping ArenaNet from releasing kits on another profession in the next expansion, or putting banners in engineer.

lLobo.7960:

Classes are not limited to one, and only one, mechanic. Thieves have steal and initiative, revs have legend swap and energy… Some class mechanics are spetial skills (f1-5) some are not…

You’re right that classes often have more than one “core” mechanic, and that sometimes relates to a managed resource like adrenaline/rage, astral power, energy, and initiative. Illusions, in fact, could arguably be both a core mechanic and a skill resource.

Engineer does, in fact, have more than one “core” profession mechanic, but it’s not kits; it’s the toolbelt and the function gyro. And this is what you’re not understanding.

The purpose of elite specializations is to add new, different things to the profession—or enhance existing core mechanics (e.g., rage or continuum split). So yes, rangers got new pets, warriors got new burst skills, and engineers got new toolbelt skills and the function gyro.

It’s also true that engineers don’t have a weapon swap, and it’s true that’s arguably because of kits, but that doesn’t mean that kits are a core profession mechanic, and it doesn’t mean that they can’t add a specialization down the road that locks us out of kits while granting us weapon swap.

Kits and elixirs are the best and most fun things that engineer had since 2012. Scrapper is a boring version of a melee figher ( warrior or guardian are just better for that ) . What made me play engi since start was the absurd , different and completely new mechanic of kits and the idea of taking “drugs” with elixirs . Now …. scrapper erased all the fun and the only thing i can do is to try to play a pistol pistol core eng build otherwise it is too boring as gameplay but core engi for spvp is quite suboptimal .

Kits were never supposed to be become the core class mechanic. That’s what the tool belt was for. Unfortunatelly kits offer so much in comparison to other skills that they’ve become the “must have” skills. We need a rebalance of other utility skills to bring on par with the kits. We need more build diversity. When 90% of the builds need to use kits then the skill balance is nonexistent.

Or we can go the other route, redesign the tool belt so that it automatically includes kits and make them the class mechanic because currently the most of the other skills are barely used. And no, we don’t need other kits. We need other different viable utility skills.

lLobo.7960:

No other elite spec will ever get kits as its core utility. Too much work to make 5 kits in one go.

This is far too strong of an assertion to reliably make, especially given that the ANet developers had raised the possibility of eventually bringing back Guardian tomes as kits.

leviathan.2148:

Kits were never supposed to be become the core class mechanic. That’s what the tool belt was for.

Never? 1) Engineers do not have weapon-swapping because of the assumed use of kits as a form of pseudo-weapon-swapping. 2) ANet initially developed the toolbelt as a means of partially offsetting the cost of equipping kits in the utility slots. Both these points suggest that kits were always considered the core mechanic, if not central assumption, of the engineer.

It’s not just about of the ammount of skills to create. No other class should ever have access to kits.

Engineer paid ALOT to have access to kits which don’t have a cd. We got intentionally weaker weapon skills. We have the smallest weapon pool in the entire game. We have no weapon swap.

If they plan to give kits to another class they would have to remove weapon swap from that class for the elite spec and forbid the use of at least half of their weapon pool. Otherwise it wouldn’t be fair.

And keep in mind: tomes are NOT kits. They work totally different. They replace your weapon skills, but you are not able to switch out to your normal weapon without losing the tome. The tome itself has a cd. Different mechanics here.

Kodama.6453:

And keep in mind: tomes are NOT kits. They work totally different. They replace your weapon skills, but you are not able to switch out to your normal weapon without losing the tome. The tome itself has a cd. Different mechanics here.

Keep in mind: Regardless of what tomes were or how they operated, ANet had raised the possibility of bringing Guardian tomes back as kits.

Genesis.8572:

Kodama.6453:

And keep in mind: tomes are NOT kits. They work totally different. They replace your weapon skills, but you are not able to switch out to your normal weapon without losing the tome. The tome itself has a cd. Different mechanics here.

Keep in mind: Regardless of what tomes were or how they operated, ANet had raised the possibility of bringing Guardian tomes back as kits.

It’s more likely Anet would introduce Guardian Tomes as an F5 mechanic like Druid. That way they wouldn’t have to design multiple Tome-Kits, and have 1 button over take the weapon skill slots so there’s no complaint from Engineers on Guards receiving kits and being able to swap between 2 weapon sets.

Wondrouswall.7169:

It’s more likely Anet would introduce Guardian Tomes as an F5 mechanic like Druid. That way they wouldn’t have to design multiple Tome-Kits, and have 1 button over take the weapon skill slots so there’s no complaint from Engineers on Guards receiving kits and being able to swap between 2 weapon sets.

Perhaps. I’m simply saying that ANet had raised the possibility of bringing back Guardian tomes as kits. So I don’t think we can safely say that kits would never be added to other classes with certainty.

Genesis.8572:

Perhaps. I’m simply saying that ANet had raised the possibility of bringing back Guardian tomes as kits. So I don’t think we can safely say that kits would never be added to other classes with certainty.

Mind to give a source? Would like to see it myself.
If that’s true, I hope they decide against it.

Kodama.6453:

Mind to give a source? Would like to see it myself.
If that’s true, I hope they decide against it.

I believe it was in an off-hand ANet response to a question about the return of Guardian tomes in a reddit thread. That would require someone far more savvy about finding these things than myself.

Pride.1734:

bearshaman.3421:

I know that kits get used heavily in the meta builds, and I think that’s because we have a basically zero cooldown on switching between kits. If the kits had the cooldown of the attunements for ele, I think we would see more build diversity in engineer (and yes this would require a massive amount of rebalancing). I like the idea of kits, but it is an overwhelming skill, to the point that all other utility skills are only used for niche situations.

Personally I prefer getting new types of utility skills, leave toolbelt as the class mechanic, and diversify and rebalance things so we have more build diversity beyond “load all the kits and the healing turret”.

Please go play ele.

The gameplay of having access too all your tools is as integral to engi as kits and toolbelt themselves.

The only place where you load up all kits and healing turret is viper engi in raids. And there are many more builds, gamemodes and ways to play engi. The reason for that specific example is only because all of our other utilites offer nothing in a PvE group setting. That is not kit’s fault for bringing damage but the fault of turrets, gyros, and gadgets for not offering anything.

First off, I’ve played all the classes in the game, and will continue to play whatever I want.

Second off, I know I can play whatever I want, but when I look at the builds listed as meta, it’s typically 4 kits and healing turret, and not just in raids, and not just for condi. There may be some variation on this, but kits figure prominently every time. If you don’t know this, you haven’t been paying attention.

leviathan.2148:

Kits were never supposed to be become the core class mechanic. That’s what the tool belt was for. Unfortunatelly kits offer so much in comparison to other skills that they’ve become the “must have” skills. We need a rebalance of other utility skills to bring on par with the kits. We need more build diversity. When 90% of the builds need to use kits then the skill balance is nonexistent.

Or we can go the other route, redesign the tool belt so that it automatically includes kits and make them the class mechanic because currently the most of the other skills are barely used. And no, we don’t need other kits. We need other different viable utility skills.

Agreed.

Genesis.8572:

leviathan.2148:

Kits were never supposed to be become the core class mechanic. That’s what the tool belt was for.

Never? 1) Engineers do not have weapon-swapping because of the assumed use of kits as a form of pseudo-weapon-swapping. 2) ANet initially developed the toolbelt as a means of partially offsetting the cost of equipping kits in the utility slots. Both these points suggest that kits were always considered the core mechanic, if not central assumption, of the engineer.

1) I’m pretty sure that is due to the toolbelt skills, and not the kits. Leave out kits, and we have 15 skills at any one time. the kits just make our skill options even more numerous.

2) source please?

Genesis.8572:

Never? 1) Engineers do not have weapon-swapping because of the assumed use of kits as a form of pseudo-weapon-swapping. 2) ANet initially developed the toolbelt as a means of partially offsetting the cost of equipping kits in the utility slots. Both these points suggest that kits were always considered the core mechanic, if not central assumption, of the engineer.

1) Your reason is just an assumption. Revenant didn’t have weapon swap at first and he had basically 5 more skills because of legend swapping so toolbelt should be enough for this reason.

2) Source?

Kits are just another utility skill group. No utility skill group should be so necessary that it would become the meta pick for 90% of the builds.

Woah woah – imagine guys, the GYRO KIT. All the gyros on kit skill 1-5 xD The toolbelts could have been the utilities. :o

Xyonon.3987:

Woah woah – imagine guys, the GYRO KIT. All the gyros on kit skill 1-5 xD The toolbelts could have been the utilities. :o

All right. I’m down for this. +infinite

bearshaman.3421:

When I look at the builds listed as meta, it’s typically 4 kits and healing turret, and not just in raids, and not just for condi. There may be some variation on this, but kits figure prominently every time.

The reason is simple: absent of any need for the utility that gadgets, gyros, and elixirs provide, we maximize our damage output. Three kits offer the most damage of any alternative, power or condi. And until there’s some type of utility beyond our damage that we bring to groups (e.g., Slick Shoes for break bars) there’s no reason to believe this will ever not be the case.

The truth is that GW2 PvE is mindnumbingly easy in 2017. Guardians don’t even take consecrations anymore for the majority of PvE content because everything melts so fast that projectile walls are no longer needed. And because warriors and revenants generate so much might passively, there’s no need for S/D elementalists or might-stacking engineer builds. And while raids themselves are mechanically challenging, build complexity (and subsequently variety) has never been more straight-forward and one-dimensional. You bring druids for GOTL/heals, mesmers for alacrity, and others for their unique buffs and boons. Everyone is put into their own little cubby and very little changes from wing one to wing four to challenge that safe space.

This is why jack-of-all-trade classes like elementalist and engineer, once valued in PvE for their ability to wear multiple hats in a dungeon or fractal group, are now strictly evaluated by their contributions on a damage meter in raids.

This has absolutely nothing to do with the strength of kits but everything to do with the content itself. Engineer in PvP and WvW has tons of utility beyond DPS. And while some of its supportive/CC elements relate to kits with magnet pulls in the Tool Kit and the supportive elements of the Elixir Gun, gyros, elixirs, and even gadgets are regularly rotated into and out of the meta build after every balance patch.

The answer to this problem isn’t moar kits but to press ArenaNet to design content where scrapper-like builds actually fulfill some degree of purpose in cooperative content.

Phineas Poe.3018:

[…]
The answer to this problem isn’t moar kits but to press ArenaNet to design content where scrapper-like builds actually fulfill some degree of purpose in cooperative content.

While this is true… how? Scrapper was designed as a supportive tanky alternative for engineer. So you create content which is in need of a tank…. problem here: there are classes which fulfill the tank role much better than scrapper is ever able to. So no one would take a scrapper for this job if they can get someone who is more efficient at it.

Kodama.6453:

While this is true… how? Scrapper was designed as a supportive tanky alternative for engineer. So you create content which is in need of a tank…. problem here: there are classes which fulfill the tank role much better than scrapper is ever able to. So no one would take a scrapper for this job if they can get someone who is more efficient at it.

Scrapper isn’t just a tank, though it is obviously tankier than most of the new specializations. It was primarily billed as a crowd control specialization: “a bruising style of lockdown and negation melee to the engineer.”

While gyro dazes are no longer a thing, Thunderclap is still among the longest lightning fields in the game, and it’s well within the realm of reason to suggest that scrapper could potentially fill a role in future content if crowd control was a bit more important.

Heck, we already have existing examples of both raid bosses and entire fractal/dungeon instances requiring more-than-usual amounts of CC. Gorseval, Mai Trin, and the entirety of the Twilight Arbor Aetherpath are great examples of what such content might look like.

It’s also not news to anyone that engineer is the strongest condition cleanser in the game. Between Purge Gyro and Fumigate, nothing compares. If they made a boss fight where conditions were far more threatening, we could also find ourselves rotating away from FT/BK/GK for every fight.

Ultimately, you guys need to look at things not from the perspective of kits being the be-all-end-all but from the perspective of what kind of content demands alternatives.

Phineas Poe.3018:

[…]
Scrapper isn’t just a tank, though it is obviously tankier than most of the new specializations. It was primarily billed as a crowd control specialization: “a bruising style of lockdown and negation melee to the engineer.”
[…]

Oh, we used to be pretty valued for our ability to shred break bars with slick shoes for Gorseval (since you bring him up). Remember what happened? They nerfed slick shoes. Hard. Problem is that engineer gets nerfed at every single topic he is good at. Removing the daze from Gyros was just another example. They were marketing Scrapper as a CC based elite spec, then nerfed our ability to CC with every patch so we are not really that good at it anymore.

Phineas Poe.3018:

[…]
It’s also not news to anyone that engineer is the strongest condition cleanser in the game. Between Purge Gyro and Fumigate, nothing compares. If they made a boss fight where conditions were far more threatening, we could also find ourselves rotating away from FT/BK/GK for every fight.
[…]

We are pretty good at removing conditions from allies thanks to Fumigate. But our ability to clean conditions from ourselves is actually not that great. I think elementalist is actually better at this job, so still no reason to pick an engineer. And elementalist is cleansing himself too, not just allies.

Kodama.6453:

Oh, we used to be pretty valued for our ability to shred break bars with slick shoes for Gorseval (since you bring him up). Remember what happened? They nerfed slick shoes. Hard. Problem is that engineer gets nerfed at every single topic he is good at. Removing the daze from Gyros was just another example. They were marketing Scrapper as a CC based elite spec, then nerfed our ability to CC with every patch so we are not really that good at it anymore.

And nerfs can be reverted into buffs? I’m not really sure where you’re going with this.

We’re talking about changes to the engineer that can be made down the road, and not how things are currently today. Engineer in its current state is relegated to a DPS role in most PvE content. The OP was insinuating the solution was for us to grin and bear it, pushing kits more heavily as a core mechanic of the engineer. I offered an alternative, explaining that there’s more to the engineer than just DPS (and kits) and that there’s historical precedent for content to require and for engineers to fill that role.

Kodama.6453:

We are pretty good at removing conditions from allies thanks to Fumigate. But our ability to clean conditions from ourselves is actually not that great. I think elementalist is actually better at this job, so still no reason to pick an engineer. And elementalist is cleansing himself too, not just allies.

Elementalists are indeed good at removing conditions from allies, but they take a lot of traits and utilities to do so—at great sacrifice of their damage. The Elixir Gun by comparison is an objectively strong skill while also giving us Acid Bomb; to take a term from the ARPG genre, it’s a “one point wonder.” The opportunity cost is substantially lower, and in areas of the game where condition cleanse is more important, it’s not outside the realm of possibility that the engineer would be more increasingly valuable to a raid by dropping out one of their offensive kits for a defensive one (or the Purge Gyro).

The point is that the engineer has multiple hats beyond the DPS role, and entrenching the engineer in kits does nothing to push the profession in other areas or diversify its play style—the core objectives of new specializations in the first place (which is something I said in the beginning of this thread).

I think kits are extremely important and a defining feature for Engie, but I don’t think embracing that and making it the focus of the development has to be necesarily about DPS. In fact, I would like to see kits tweaked away from mere DPS, begining with a proper fixing of the Med Kit.

I don’t pick kits for DPS. I don’t think that is their reason to be. I pick them for variety of actions available, speed of access and fun.

I didn’t read everything but what I have to say is:

The reason Scrapper added no Kits to the game is that when ANet was developing the elite they asked the community what they wanted from the class and they said: “Something that doesn’t use kits because we’re sick of using all 4 of them”.

So we got it. An elite spec that uses no kits. Only it also doesn’t use virtually anything else from the core class… or plays like it… >.>

Kenshi Maru.5489:

I didn’t read everything but what I have to say is:

The reason Scrapper added no Kits to the game is that when ANet was developing the elite they asked the community what they wanted from the class and they said: “Something that doesn’t use kits because we’re sick of using all 4 of them”.

So we got it. An elite spec that uses no kits. Only it also doesn’t use virtually anything else from the core class… or plays like it… >.>

Every elite spec introduced a new utility skill type to the class. This isn’t really unique to engineer. Kits are a type of utility skill, and while highly meta, they are not a class mechanic. That’s what toolbelt skills are. So more kits would have broken with the stated purpose of elite specs.

bearshaman.3421:

Every elite spec introduced a new utility skill type to the class. This isn’t really unique to engineer. Kits are a type of utility skill, and while highly meta, they are not a class mechanic. That’s what toolbelt skills are. So more kits would have broken with the stated purpose of elite specs.

Yes and no…

Kits are intrinsic to the engineer as attunements are to eles or pets to rangers…

We got no weapon swap and use kits to cover for that.
The reason why 4 kits is the meta for condi is because the build focus on doing as much dmg as possible, and the condi dmg is spread on those 4 kits (bombs, nades, FT, mortar). If you need utility for anything (beyond some CC from fields) you would have to swap, most likely bombs, for something else.

Scrapper gave the engi a good weapon on its own. The auto provides might and hits reasonably well, it has defense, CC and a bit of burst. And yet scrapper still needs kits (on PvP/WvW) because it has no range. So we are forced to use EG for range and some condi removal.

We would be better off if the kits were redesigned so that they could fit better with the idea of elite specs.

Right now, they barely fit, and will always compete with future specs.

My preference:

1) – On activation Kit skills replace the toolbelt skills rather than weapons skills.
2) – Weapon Swap with with 10 ~ 25 seconds cooldown depending on kit load and traits
3) – Kit Cooldown of 0 ~ 10 modified by traits and kit load

lLobo.7960:

bearshaman.3421:

Every elite spec introduced a new utility skill type to the class. This isn’t really unique to engineer. Kits are a type of utility skill, and while highly meta, they are not a class mechanic. That’s what toolbelt skills are. So more kits would have broken with the stated purpose of elite specs.

Yes and no…

Kits are intrinsic to the engineer as attunements are to eles or pets to rangers…

We got no weapon swap and use kits to cover for that.
The reason why 4 kits is the meta for condi is because the build focus on doing as much dmg as possible, and the condi dmg is spread on those 4 kits (bombs, nades, FT, mortar). If you need utility for anything (beyond some CC from fields) you would have to swap, most likely bombs, for something else.

Scrapper gave the engi a good weapon on its own. The auto provides might and hits reasonably well, it has defense, CC and a bit of burst. And yet scrapper still needs kits (on PvP/WvW) because it has no range. So we are forced to use EG for range and some condi removal.

If the kits are supposed to be to us what attunements are for eles then we need the tool belt redesign so that we can slot kits there + they need cooldown as attunements get. If they were supposed to be so necessary to the point that we wouldn’t pick any other skill then they shouldn’t be utility skill group. Core mechanic or not we need a big change for them or we won’t use other skills even with the 4. elite spec.

As many here says the Kits are our way of weapon swapping, and has been stated as such, since the game launched. They just happen to be placed as utilities. Whether that was a mistake I dunno. But they are a part of our core mechanic.

Maybe they could make it so we can place 1 kit where others would place their second weapon and it could function with weapon swap and ofc. have 9 sec cd. Maybe that could open up for the use of our other utilties?

Add a CD to kits and you kill engie’s flavor. Seriously, don’t go there, it’s a mistake.

lLobo.7960:

bearshaman.3421:

Every elite spec introduced a new utility skill type to the class. This isn’t really unique to engineer. Kits are a type of utility skill, and while highly meta, they are not a class mechanic. That’s what toolbelt skills are. So more kits would have broken with the stated purpose of elite specs.

Yes and no…

Kits are intrinsic to the engineer as attunements are to eles or pets to rangers…

We got no weapon swap and use kits to cover for that.
The reason why 4 kits is the meta for condi is because the build focus on doing as much dmg as possible, and the condi dmg is spread on those 4 kits (bombs, nades, FT, mortar). If you need utility for anything (beyond some CC from fields) you would have to swap, most likely bombs, for something else.

Scrapper gave the engi a good weapon on its own. The auto provides might and hits reasonably well, it has defense, CC and a bit of burst. And yet scrapper still needs kits (on PvP/WvW) because it has no range. So we are forced to use EG for range and some condi removal.

Ok first off, you’re comparing a utility skill to two actual class mechanics. Our class mechanic is the toolbelt. Period. Kits aren’t intrinsic, they are just so powerful that everyone uses them. The fact that this conversation is even happening is proof that there is a serious balance issue surrounding kits.

We have no weapon swap because we have another 5 skills right above the weapon (the toolbelt, our class mechanic).

The reason 4 kits is meta is because, as I said, they are unbalanced. The changes with FT to give the kits more of a focus will hopefully move us away from this, as you won’t NEED 4 kits to do good damage, and can do well with only 1 or 2 instead of being forced to hop between 4 kits to do good damage. Hopefully this will continue so we can have some true build diversity in this class again.

Why does everyone just overlook the toolbelt? We have 15 skills at our fingertips AT ALL TIMES without even using kits, without any cooldown on switching, nothing! Who else has that!?! No one!

I would remove the tool belt, and replace it with two kit slots. Kits would then be removed from the slot skills, and replaced by mines/traps or whatever.

F1 + F2, customizable kits. Then every new elite specialization unlocks a new kit you can choose from.

For things that used the tool belt, like the turrets and gyros, I would make new kits, designed just to manage said elements.

More redesign ideas here.

bearshaman.3421:

Ok first off, you’re comparing a utility skill to two actual class mechanics. Our class mechanic is the toolbelt. Period. Kits aren’t intrinsic, they are just so powerful that everyone uses them. The fact that this conversation is even happening is proof that there is a serious balance issue surrounding kits.

We have no weapon swap because we have another 5 skills right above the weapon (the toolbelt, our class mechanic).

The reason 4 kits is meta is because, as I said, they are unbalanced. The changes with FT to give the kits more of a focus will hopefully move us away from this, as you won’t NEED 4 kits to do good damage, and can do well with only 1 or 2 instead of being forced to hop between 4 kits to do good damage. Hopefully this will continue so we can have some true build diversity in this class again.

Why does everyone just overlook the toolbelt? We have 15 skills at our fingertips AT ALL TIMES without even using kits, without any cooldown on switching, nothing! Who else has that!?! No one!

Sorry, but no.

Kits are the thing to cover the lack of weapon swap. The toolbelt covers the use of a utility slot for a weapon.

The reason 4 kits is used in PvE is because its where the dmg is, and PvE is all about dps. And of course the dmg comes from kits, they are our weapons, the best auto-attacks (bombs and nades), our melee dps in case of projectile defense (bombs, FT) and our way to trigger weapon swap sigils.

On open world pve you dont use 4 kits, as you need a bit more of utility. If soloing HoT maps and some harder content (like the bandit chieftains from current events) you will need other things than kits as you will need utility (rocket boots, projectile reflection, ram for breakbar – RiP slickshoes).

Other game modes have less kits and more elixirs or gyros, as those are the utilities for defense and support. The main PvP builds use one kit only, and some none, as you need more support and utility in PvP to survive.

Why we don’t have the kits on the toolbelt slots? Because then we would be just re-skinned elementalists…

lLobo.7960:

Kits are the thing to cover the lack of weapon swap.

This line of thinking is parroted often, but where has this actually been stated by ArenaNet?

Kits are as much our class mechanic as initiative is thief’s. Sure, steal may be in your f1 slot, but initiative is also unique to the profession and arguably more central. Did ANet intend kits to be more central and polarizing than toolbelt skills? Maybe not, but if not they certainly haven’t put much effort into correcting that, despite having years to do so.

you can brag about 15 skills available at all times. but it’s about quality. and the base weapons for engineers are mostly terrible quality and quality. that’s why players look to kits to replace what the weapons lack.

Shenakitten5792:

you can brag about 15 skills available at all times. but it’s about quality. and the base weapons for engineers are mostly terrible quality and quality. that’s why players look to kits to replace what the weapons lack.

I’d take this as a reason to redesign and rebalance kits and weapons so that our weapons are more impactful and that we have more viable options. Not for more kits.

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