Guild Wars 2

(Just clearing up a misconception I’ve seen on these forums way, way too much lately.)

If they were they would be like the other profession mechanics and either A; occupy the F-bar, or B; work as some form of passive effect of our weapon skills (see: mesmer illusions), or finally C; act as an overall passive effect or gauge (see: thief initiative and guardian passive virtues). The simple fact is that the way the game is designed you can’t go into combat without your “primary mechanic,” yet engineers are fully able to enter combat without a single kit on your skill bar. Likewise all other profession mechanics are available in some fashion from level one, providing an opportunity to learn how said mechanic works. Oh, and let’s not forget that ever profession’s final trait line has a passive statistical buff specifically relating to said mechanic such as the guardian’s Virtues trait line buffing Virtue recharge rate, the ranger’s Beastmastery buffing pet attributes, the mesmer’s Illusions line reducing the recharge of Shatter skills, and the warrior’s Discipline reducing the recharge of Burst skills.

So let’s review…

Do engineer kits occupy the F-bar? No.

Are engineer kits an aspect of weapon skills? No.

Are engineer kits some form of passive effect? No.

Are engineer kits available right from level one? No.

Are engineer kits an “always-on” or otherwise always-available aspect of the profession regardless of build? No.

Does the engineer’s fifth trait line, Tools, provide a passive statistical buff to kits? No.

In summation; engineer kits are not our primary profession mechanic, the Tool Belt is. This is an objective fact regardless of how much people may want to say otherwise. The only reason we are so dependent on them is poor balance and profession design, making an optional utility skill type so vastly superior to our actual profession mechanic (something undeniably underwhelming) as well as all other utility skill types and our baseline weapon skills that feel compelled to use them in much the same way as other professions are designed to use their profession mechanic.

Pretty much that, though I can see how people unfamiliar with engies would say that. They are noticeable utilities, but in the end kits are just that. More utilities.

Also I wanna add in since I also see this a lot, stealth is not a thieve’s profession mechanic either.

I’m not sure why you had to make this thread, but you sound awfully angry. You ought to take a long sit in a place with a cool crossbreeze.

I would consider kits one of the primary profession mechanics for Engineers, since they are unique to the class and are a core component of many Engineer builds.

I wouldn’t call them the primary mechanic.

Imagi.4561:

I would consider kits a primary profession mechanic for Engineer, since they are unique to the class and are a core component of many engineer builds.

Indeed, ultimately no different than a warrior’s banners, or a ranger’s traps….of course warrior’s and ranger’s aren’t indirectly punished for not using banners or traps by shoddy and kitten balance. But that is another thread that has been made and re-made a million times.

Considering that this was taken from a thread that I think replied to a post of mine directly, I would like to comment. The semantics of “primary profession mechanic” being the F-buttons seems to be an incredibly narrow view of how to view any given profession. Perhaps my verbage is what struck a chord, as “mechanic” seems to be taken literally. Rather, I would re-suggest that kits are still a core functionality of Engineers. This seems to be something that is not directly translatable to all other professions, however I would posit that it is akin to the idea that clones/phantasms are a core functionality of Mesmers (even though it seems that using Arkham’s literal semantics-baed logic, that Shattering is the core mechanic and that clones/phantasms are merely utilities?).

The point here is that Engineers are seen both inside and outside the playing community as a thoroughly unique profession. In that vein, we cannot do apples-to-apples comparisons on weapon-to-utility-to-F# skills. It is incorrect to relegate kits as something that acts as “just another utility skill” ala other professions. Quite simply, the way that kits work belies that comparison: kits function as the response to other professions’ weapon-swaps. Therefore, not discussing kits interaction with each other and the main weapon-set as a core function of how the profession plays would be similar to Elementalists talking about just sitting in one attunement, or how other professions deal with weapon swaps.

I believe the difference in literal semantics on what constitutes profession-mechanic and core functionality may go a long way to bridging this divide Arkham seems to imply in the OP.

Oh, to supplement my previous post now that I’ve read some new posts…

Let’s please not take the route of blaming kits for perceived slights to the playstyle of Engineers.

Hrm, I wouldn’t call kits our profession mechanic either, yet the similarity of kits to ele attunements and toolbelt to the ele utility slots is a useful analogy to provide to those trying to understand the engineer profession. Not sure why this thread needed making either. It’s an analogy. Take it for what it is perhaps? Ele is a profession played more than engineer, making ele better understood by that playerbase. Give them something they can relate to and they might try engineer instead.

No! You have to use the exact same terminology that I use or I’ll make angry pointless threads about it!

“Does the engineer’s fifth trait line, Tools, provide a passive statistical buff to kits? No.”

Not to be a troll, but the tool trait line has Kit Refinement in it (and Speedy Kits, Speedy Gadgets, etc.)

Deacon.9725:

Considering that this was taken from a thread that I think replied to a post of mine directly, I would like to comment. The semantics of “primary profession mechanic” being the F-buttons seems to be an incredibly narrow view of how to view any given profession. Perhaps my verbage is what struck a chord, as “mechanic” seems to be taken literally. Rather, I would re-suggest that kits are still a core functionality of Engineers. This seems to be something that is not directly translatable to all other professions, however I would posit that it is akin to the idea that clones/phantasms are a core functionality of Mesmers (even though it seems that using Arkham’s literal semantics-baed logic, that Shattering is the core mechanic and that clones/phantasms are merely utilities?).

The point here is that Engineers are seen both inside and outside the playing community as a thoroughly unique profession. In that vein, we cannot do apples-to-apples comparisons on weapon-to-utility-to-F# skills. It is incorrect to relegate kits as something that acts as “just another utility skill” ala other professions. Quite simply, the way that kits work belies that comparison: kits function as the response to other professions’ weapon-swaps. Therefore, not discussing kits interaction with each other and the main weapon-set as a core function of how the profession plays would be similar to Elementalists talking about just sitting in one attunement, or how other professions deal with weapon swaps.

I believe the difference in literal semantics on what constitutes profession-mechanic and core functionality may go a long way to bridging this divide Arkham seems to imply in the OP.

There are two glaring flaws in your reasoning.

First; illusions and illusion shattering are both the primary mechanic (singular, not plural) of the mesmer, as you cannont shatter an illusion without first summoning one. Furthermore the mesmer has a visible display of how many illusions they have summoned, and how many total they may have in what is best described as the “profession section” of the HUD. Finally every mesmer weapon option, without exception, has access to at least one illusion summoning skill, meaning it is objectively impossible to play a mesmer without access to illusions.

Secondly; engineer kits are not a skill type singularly unique to the engineer, as their primary function is nearly identical to that of elementalist conjured weapons. That is to say that they are a utility skill option that when used replaces the equipped weapon and all associated skills with a pre-set skill build themed to the skill used, and that does not scale based on equipped weapon damage. The skill types are exactly the same, with the exception that engineer kits are “overpowered” or rather “unbalanced” by having no cooldowns and near instant casting times. That could be another line of discussion, but in summation I feel furthers the theory that kits were originally supposed to be the f-bar profession mechanic due to their similar “ease of use” to elementalist attunements.

Chaba.5410:

“Does the engineer’s fifth trait line, Tools, provide a passive statistical buff to kits? No.”

Not to be a troll, but the tool trait line has Kit Refinement in it (and Speedy Kits, Speedy Gadgets, etc.)

That is not a passive statistical buff; that is a triggered additional function on a pre-set cooldown. Further more it is an “opt-in” trait that must be manually selected by the player at the expense of other traits within the Tools line, were as the passive buffs I was speaking of and those I mentioned in the opening post from other professions are “free bonuses” simply for spending points in those trait lines.

No, they are not passive statistical buffs. If you narrow the terminology down enough, you can exclude anything to prove a point. Yet, as a friend says, if you only watch the finger, you won’t see it pointing at the moon and you shall miss out on all the moon’s wonder and glory.

Chaba.5410:

No, they are not passive statistical buffs. If you narrow the terminology down enough, you can exclude anything to prove a point. Yet, as a friend says, if you only watch the finger, you won’t see it pointing at the moon and you shall miss out on all the moon’s wonder and glory.

So you’re suggestion we ignore an established pattern set forth by the developers, refuse to use it as a baseline for judgment, and use the wrong terminology all so that we can pretend something is what it objectively isn’t?

If everybody is getting it but you… you might be the one wrong.

Arkham Creed.7358:

Chaba.5410:

No, they are not passive statistical buffs. If you narrow the terminology down enough, you can exclude anything to prove a point. Yet, as a friend says, if you only watch the finger, you won’t see it pointing at the moon and you shall miss out on all the moon’s wonder and glory.

So you’re suggestion we ignore an established pattern set forth by the developers, refuse to use it as a baseline for judgment, and use the wrong terminology all so that we can pretend something is what it objectively isn’t?

Perhaps I had an extra dose of stupid in my breakfast this morning, but you lost me, Arkham. I thought this was a general point about semantics, using comparisons with other classes as foundation.

Arkham Creed.7358:

Deacon.9725:

Considering that this was taken from a thread that I think replied to a post of mine directly, I would like to comment. The semantics of “primary profession mechanic” being the F-buttons seems to be an incredibly narrow view of how to view any given profession. Perhaps my verbage is what struck a chord, as “mechanic” seems to be taken literally. Rather, I would re-suggest that kits are still a core functionality of Engineers. This seems to be something that is not directly translatable to all other professions, however I would posit that it is akin to the idea that clones/phantasms are a core functionality of Mesmers (even though it seems that using Arkham’s literal semantics-baed logic, that Shattering is the core mechanic and that clones/phantasms are merely utilities?).

The point here is that Engineers are seen both inside and outside the playing community as a thoroughly unique profession. In that vein, we cannot do apples-to-apples comparisons on weapon-to-utility-to-F# skills. It is incorrect to relegate kits as something that acts as “just another utility skill” ala other professions. Quite simply, the way that kits work belies that comparison: kits function as the response to other professions’ weapon-swaps. Therefore, not discussing kits interaction with each other and the main weapon-set as a core function of how the profession plays would be similar to Elementalists talking about just sitting in one attunement, or how other professions deal with weapon swaps.

I believe the difference in literal semantics on what constitutes profession-mechanic and core functionality may go a long way to bridging this divide Arkham seems to imply in the OP.

There are two glaring flaws in your reasoning.

First; illusions and illusion shattering are both the primary mechanic (singular, not plural) of the mesmer, as you cannont shatter an illusion without first summoning one. Furthermore the mesmer has a visible display of how many illusions they have summoned, and how many total they may have in what is best described as the “profession section” of the HUD. Finally every mesmer weapon option, without exception, has access to at least one illusion summoning skill, meaning it is objectively impossible to play a mesmer without access to illusions.

Secondly; engineer kits are not a skill type singularly unique to the engineer, as their primary function is nearly identical to that of elementalist conjured weapons. That is to say that they are a utility skill option that when used replaces the equipped weapon and all associated skills with a pre-set skill build themed to the skill used, and that does not scale based on equipped weapon damage. The skill types are exactly the same, with the exception that engineer kits are “overpowered” or rather “unbalanced” by having no cooldowns and near instant casting times. That could be another line of discussion, but in summation I feel furthers the theory that kits were originally supposed to be the f-bar profession mechanic due to their similar “ease of use” to elementalist attunements.

Ok… let’s address these issues in order, shall we?

1) The Mesmer analogy is not a flaw in my reasoning for why kits are still to be considered a core function of the profession. It was merely there to make the point that digressing into semantics based on F-# as the only core mechanic of the class seems to be too literal (since you can still use the F-# mesmer skills without having any clones/phantasms summoned). But it did perform the nice little illusion/trick to getting you hooked on debating semantics yet again and not focusing on the reasons in my argument.

2) Your argument about kits having a “primary function nearly identical” to Elementalist conjured weapons but being OP because of your stated ideas still rings hollow. Elementalist attunement performs the same function you stated about conjured weapons (ie, they change the entirety of the 1-5 skill bar), and yet you don’t seem to have a problem with Elementalist’s “core mechanic” (or core functionality, in my opinion) of having 5×4 skills at their disposal that are required to shift in and out of a skillbar setting.

I would suggest that the difficulty in your understanding of this idea is where kits are placed in the Engineer kitten nal (ie, fitting in the 7-9 slots rather than the F# slots). Perhaps getting over that issue would allow an ability to view the argument in less literal/narrow terms.

Arkham Creed.7358:

Chaba.5410:

No, they are not passive statistical buffs. If you narrow the terminology down enough, you can exclude anything to prove a point. Yet, as a friend says, if you only watch the finger, you won’t see it pointing at the moon and you shall miss out on all the moon’s wonder and glory.

So you’re suggestion we ignore an established pattern set forth by the developers, refuse to use it as a baseline for judgment, and use the wrong terminology all so that we can pretend something is what it objectively isn’t?

I think you’re trying very hard to fit a square peg in a round hole, seemingly to justify your claim that “everything is broken with Engineers.” Because let’s be honest a bit about the 5th trait line for other professions… they relate to various unique attributes of that particular profession. If you want to make a direct comparison to a single other profession, then please do so. But for the sake of clarity and honesty, please don’t try to force an established pattern where none exists. Sometimes patterns aren’t built to fit neatly into what you want them to prove, but Chaba’s point is well made and if I can paraphrase in yet another fun quote in the same vein: “there are 3 different kinds of lies – lies, kitten lies, and statistics.”

I haven’t touched engineer in a long time. Does this thread mean that there are good kit-less engineer builds now?

luckywaldo.6089:

I haven’t touched engineer in a long time. Does this thread mean that there are good kit-less engineer builds now?

I was under the impression that elixir builds have been viable for a while.

And I was under the impression that elixir builds were still best with one utility reserved for a kit.

Imagi.4561:

Arkham Creed.7358:

Chaba.5410:

No, they are not passive statistical buffs. If you narrow the terminology down enough, you can exclude anything to prove a point. Yet, as a friend says, if you only watch the finger, you won’t see it pointing at the moon and you shall miss out on all the moon’s wonder and glory.

So you’re suggestion we ignore an established pattern set forth by the developers, refuse to use it as a baseline for judgment, and use the wrong terminology all so that we can pretend something is what it objectively isn’t?

Perhaps I had an extra dose of stupid in my breakfast this morning, but you lost me, Arkham. I thought this was a general point about semantics, using comparisons with other classes as foundation.

Don’t worry about it, I’ll provide a visual aid so everyone knows exactly what traits I am speaking of. Please direct your attention to the attached jpg.

What you’re looking at is a copy of every profession’s fifth trait line, with a particular passive bonus received for investing points in said line highlighted with a red box. You’ll first notice that every one of those bonuses is even represented by that profession’s unique thumbnail icon. Now if you check a wiki or skill/trait builder web site you will notice that in every instance that bonus apples a small statistic buff (not an additional or altered function) to that profession’s unique mechanic, and that said bonus even relates directly or indirectly to the functionality that profession has linked to pressing one or more of the function (F#) keys. This is true across the board and without exception, even to in the case of the engineer, as the engineer’s bonus directly applies to the Tool Belt skills, and not in any way to kits.

luckywaldo.6089:

And I was under the impression that elixir builds were still best with one utility reserved for a kit.

Well sure, since kits give Engineers the diversity of skills outside of the main weaponset. This was actually the intent from the devs’ perspective very early on – that kits provided the multi-skill diversity implicit in other professions’ weapon set swaps.

Elixir builds without a kit in a slot would be like equipping signets/banners/etc and not switching between 2 weapon sets. As far as I have understood the class since I’ve been here, that’s WAI.

Arkham Creed.7358:

Don’t worry about it, I’ll provide a visual aid so everyone knows exactly what traits I am speaking of. Please direct your attention to the attached jpg.

What you’re looking at is a copy of every profession’s fifth trait line, with a particular passive bonus received for investing points in said line highlighted with a red box. You’ll first notice that every one of those bonuses is even represented by that profession’s unique thumbnail icon. Now if you check a wiki or skill/trait builder web site you will notice that in every instance that bonus apples a small statistic buff (not an additional or altered function) to that profession’s unique mechanic, and that said bonus even relates directly or indirectly to the functionality that profession has linked to pressing one or more of the function (F#) keys. This is true across the board and without exception, even to in the case of the engineer, as the engineer’s bonus directly applies to the Tool Belt skills, and not in any way to kits.

It seems like you’re just bent on making the small narrow case that because kits are not F# mechanics that they are not a core part of gameplay. Sadly, I don’t see how this makes sense unless you made the analogy that the 5th trait line in other classes (outside of Ele) had something to do with beefing up alternate weaponsets.

But the real thrust of the problem with this argument, Arkham, is that you seem to be saying “Engineers are not like everyone else. And that’s a Bad Thing!” I don’t see that as cause for concern at all. Treat kits like alternate weapon sets, which is a core function (I would still hazard to say core mechanic) of other professions’ playability. You don’t want a second weapon set? That’s ok. But it would be disingenuous to believe that the profession should be expected to have the greatest degree of flexibility, optionality and diversity in play as if you did use it.

Deacon.9725:

luckywaldo.6089:

And I was under the impression that elixir builds were still best with one utility reserved for a kit.

Well sure, since kits give Engineers the diversity of skills outside of the main weaponset. This was actually the intent from the devs’ perspective very early on – that kits provided the multi-skill diversity implicit in other professions’ weapon set swaps.

Elixir builds without a kit in a slot would be like equipping signets/banners/etc and not switching between 2 weapon sets. As far as I have understood the class since I’ve been here, that’s WAI.

I see your point, but I think I have see kit-less elixir builds on the forums before. I could just be hallucinating, though. I am rather tired at the moment.

I’m also not as familiar with Engineer as the other classes I’ve played; my public school education isn’t enough qualification to understand it properly.

Deacon.9725:

Arkham Creed.7358:

Don’t worry about it, I’ll provide a visual aid so everyone knows exactly what traits I am speaking of. Please direct your attention to the attached jpg.

What you’re looking at is a copy of every profession’s fifth trait line, with a particular passive bonus received for investing points in said line highlighted with a red box. You’ll first notice that every one of those bonuses is even represented by that profession’s unique thumbnail icon. Now if you check a wiki or skill/trait builder web site you will notice that in every instance that bonus apples a small statistic buff (not an additional or altered function) to that profession’s unique mechanic, and that said bonus even relates directly or indirectly to the functionality that profession has linked to pressing one or more of the function (F#) keys. This is true across the board and without exception, even to in the case of the engineer, as the engineer’s bonus directly applies to the Tool Belt skills, and not in any way to kits.

It seems like you’re just bent on making the small narrow case that because kits are not F# mechanics that they are not a core part of gameplay. Sadly, I don’t see how this makes sense unless you made the analogy that the 5th trait line in other classes (outside of Ele) had something to do with beefing up alternate weaponsets.

But the real thrust of the problem with this argument, Arkham, is that you seem to be saying “Engineers are not like everyone else. And that’s a Bad Thing!” I don’t see that as cause for concern at all. Treat kits like alternate weapon sets, which is a core function (I would still hazard to say core mechanic) of other professions’ playability. You don’t want a second weapon set? That’s ok. But it would be disingenuous to believe that the profession should be expected to have the greatest degree of flexibility, optionality and diversity in play as if you did use it.

Well here is my issue, firstly if you insist on ignoring the F# argument, there are still five other points raised n my opening post you are not addressing. Secondly, and the major issue here, is that for every profession in the game the primary mechanic is not optional, it is a part of your character that you cannot change or go without. For engineers this is the tool belt, and kits provide the function of utility skills only. Now if this was our profession mechanic it is very poorly implemented, as that would make us the only profession in the game that has to sacrifice a utility skill slot in order to make use of our profession mechanic.

Finally some clarification; if kits were our profession mechanic I wouldn’t have a problem with it. If nothing else it would give more legitimacy to the reasoning why we can’t use actual weapon swapping, and explain why our profession is so strongly balanced to rely on kits. However what I take issue with is the fact that our profession is so strongly balanced around an optional utility skill type, and that means Arena Net’s poor balance forces us to sacrifice at least one utility slot on kits. Furthermore I take issue with players dismissing this problem with the false explanation that kits are our primary profession mechanic.

I concede that kits are a mechanic of our profession, and even a strong and important one. No different from warrior banners, guardian wards, mesmer mantras, elementalist glyphs, or thief venoms. But again I stress that these professions are not balanced with the assumption that they will be using these skill types, and have a much higher number of viable builds without those skill types than engineers have without kits.

As I said in my post to you in that other thread, it is painfully obvious that kits were supposed to be our primary mechanic. And they probably were at some point in development. But that doesn’t change the fact that they are not currently our primary mechanic, and our being balanced to use them almost to the exclusion of everything else is a very real problem with this profession, and a problem you are doing nothing to resolve and everything to propagate by passively insisting that our reliance on kits is somehow acceptable. If we don’t complain Arena Net will never fix this.

I can agree with Arkham that this class is badly designed. Its sad that we don’t have weapon swap because the possibility of multiple kit and to toolbelt, our true profession mechanic, is designed to make up for those lost utility slots. Other classes get their mechanic for extra skills at no cost but not us, just think about how bad that was implemented.

Now with that said, I’ve gotten used to it by now, playing the engie is almost like playing the class with no profession mechanics and I’ve just accepted that. By now I really doubt anet would ever try to improve that much.

Penguin.5197:

I can agree with Arkham that this class is badly designed. Its sad that we don’t have weapon swap because the possibility of multiple kit and to toolbelt, our true profession mechanic, is designed to make up for those lost utility slots. Other classes get their mechanic for extra skills at no cost but not us, just think about how bad that was implemented.

And that pretty much sums up every one of my problems with engineer balance and mechanics.

It’s true and to further add to your argument the design flaws were enhanced when they weakened kit spell effects instead of buffing the elixirs and the gadgets as well as the toolbelt versions of these skills.

If they did that it would improve the engineer all around so that all choices would be equally valuable instead of us being forced into an all elixir all kit build especially for PVE.

Nobody ever said they were.

People just said that they should be, because they’re so much better than the toolbelt.

I’m not sure why the Engineer kits and Elementalist attunements weren’t implemented more similarly in practice. As a designer, I would have found that more logical and easier for players to understand.

The toolbelt is nothing more than extra skills. Kits are also just extra skills.

The engineer mechanic is having more skills available at one time than other professions, whether through kits or through other utility skills with their toolbelt counterparts.

The engineer was beautifully designed. Look at how much variety our engagements have compared to any other profession.

Arkham Creed.7358:

Deacon.9725:

Arkham Creed.7358:

Don’t worry about it, I’ll provide a visual aid so everyone knows exactly what traits I am speaking of. Please direct your attention to the attached jpg.

What you’re looking at is a copy of every profession’s fifth trait line, with a particular passive bonus received for investing points in said line highlighted with a red box. You’ll first notice that every one of those bonuses is even represented by that profession’s unique thumbnail icon. Now if you check a wiki or skill/trait builder web site you will notice that in every instance that bonus apples a small statistic buff (not an additional or altered function) to that profession’s unique mechanic, and that said bonus even relates directly or indirectly to the functionality that profession has linked to pressing one or more of the function (F#) keys. This is true across the board and without exception, even to in the case of the engineer, as the engineer’s bonus directly applies to the Tool Belt skills, and not in any way to kits.

It seems like you’re just bent on making the small narrow case that because kits are not F# mechanics that they are not a core part of gameplay. Sadly, I don’t see how this makes sense unless you made the analogy that the 5th trait line in other classes (outside of Ele) had something to do with beefing up alternate weaponsets.

But the real thrust of the problem with this argument, Arkham, is that you seem to be saying “Engineers are not like everyone else. And that’s a Bad Thing!” I don’t see that as cause for concern at all. Treat kits like alternate weapon sets, which is a core function (I would still hazard to say core mechanic) of other professions’ playability. You don’t want a second weapon set? That’s ok. But it would be disingenuous to believe that the profession should be expected to have the greatest degree of flexibility, optionality and diversity in play as if you did use it.

Well here is my issue, firstly if you insist on ignoring the F# argument, there are still five other points raised n my opening post you are not addressing. Secondly, and the major issue here, is that for every profession in the game the primary mechanic is not optional, it is a part of your character that you cannot change or go without. For engineers this is the tool belt, and kits provide the function of utility skills only. Now if this was our profession mechanic it is very poorly implemented, as that would make us the only profession in the game that has to sacrifice a utility skill slot in order to make use of our profession mechanic.

Finally some clarification; if kits were our profession mechanic I wouldn’t have a problem with it. If nothing else it would give more legitimacy to the reasoning why we can’t use actual weapon swapping, and explain why our profession is so strongly balanced to rely on kits. However what I take issue with is the fact that our profession is so strongly balanced around an optional utility skill type, and that means Arena Net’s poor balance forces us to sacrifice at least one utility slot on kits. Furthermore I take issue with players dismissing this problem with the false explanation that kits are our primary profession mechanic.

I concede that kits are a mechanic of our profession, and even a strong and important one. No different from warrior banners, guardian wards, mesmer mantras, elementalist glyphs, or thief venoms. But again I stress that these professions are not balanced with the assumption that they will be using these skill types, and have a much higher number of viable builds without those skill types than engineers have without kits.

As I said in my post to you in that other thread, it is painfully obvious that kits were supposed to be our primary mechanic. And they probably were at some point in development. But that doesn’t change the fact that they are not currently our primary mechanic, and our being balanced to use them almost to the exclusion of everything else is a very real problem with this profession, and a problem you are doing nothing to resolve and everything to propagate by passively insisting that our reliance on kits is somehow acceptable. If we don’t complain Arena Net will never fix this.

Think of it like this, the tool belt skills are our utility slots and the actual utility slots are what we use to put in additional functionality either by adding more weapons or what have you. The main difference is that we don’t get to pick our utilities since they are tied directly to what we pick for our additional functions. What you are saying about the tool belt being our primary class mechanic is technically correct, but you really cannot compare it to other class mechanics because ours is unique to engineer.

ShadowPuppet.3746:

Think of it like this, the tool belt skills are our utility slots and the actual utility slots are what we use to put in additional functionality either by adding more weapons or what have you. The main difference is that we don’t get to pick our utilities since they are tied directly to what we pick for our additional functions. What you are saying about the tool belt being our primary class mechanic is technically correct, but you really cannot compare it to other class mechanics because ours is unique to engineer.

You basically just said that our profession mechanic is that we don’t get to choose our utility skills.

Why am I the only one who see this as a problem?

Arkham Creed.7358:

ShadowPuppet.3746:

Think of it like this, the tool belt skills are our utility slots and the actual utility slots are what we use to put in additional functionality either by adding more weapons or what have you. The main difference is that we don’t get to pick our utilities since they are tied directly to what we pick for our additional functions. What you are saying about the tool belt being our primary class mechanic is technically correct, but you really cannot compare it to other class mechanics because ours is unique to engineer.

You basically just said that our profession mechanic is that we don’t get to choose our utility skills.

Why am I the only one who see this as a problem?

Because I don’t view the engineer tool belt mechanic to be essential to the success of the class. It seems to me that you don’t like using kits (which that is perfectly fine to not) but knowing that they are a huge part of the class it would seem to me that if you don’t like using kits you would be happier playing something else. Please don’t take that as a snarky comment because I don’t mean it to be, it just seems that you are quite distraught over how you perceive what the class was meant to be versus what it currently is and just trying to save you some frustration.

ShadowPuppet.3746:

Arkham Creed.7358:

ShadowPuppet.3746:

Think of it like this, the tool belt skills are our utility slots and the actual utility slots are what we use to put in additional functionality either by adding more weapons or what have you. The main difference is that we don’t get to pick our utilities since they are tied directly to what we pick for our additional functions. What you are saying about the tool belt being our primary class mechanic is technically correct, but you really cannot compare it to other class mechanics because ours is unique to engineer.

You basically just said that our profession mechanic is that we don’t get to choose our utility skills.

Why am I the only one who see this as a problem?

Because I don’t view the engineer tool belt mechanic to be essential to the success of the class. It seems to me that you don’t like using kits (which that is perfectly fine to not) but knowing that they are a huge part of the class it would seem to me that if you don’t like using kits you would be happier playing something else. Please don’t take that as a snarky comment because I don’t mean it to be, it just seems that you are quite distraught over how you perceive what the class was meant to be versus what it currently is and just trying to save you some frustration.

Actually I’ve been playing a kit based engineer for about eight months now. I started out loving it, but now I’m just freaking sick of it. I want to change my build, but nothing else is viable, so that is getting a bit frustrating.

Arkham Creed.7358:

ShadowPuppet.3746:

Arkham Creed.7358:

ShadowPuppet.3746:

Think of it like this, the tool belt skills are our utility slots and the actual utility slots are what we use to put in additional functionality either by adding more weapons or what have you. The main difference is that we don’t get to pick our utilities since they are tied directly to what we pick for our additional functions. What you are saying about the tool belt being our primary class mechanic is technically correct, but you really cannot compare it to other class mechanics because ours is unique to engineer.

You basically just said that our profession mechanic is that we don’t get to choose our utility skills.

Why am I the only one who see this as a problem?

Because I don’t view the engineer tool belt mechanic to be essential to the success of the class. It seems to me that you don’t like using kits (which that is perfectly fine to not) but knowing that they are a huge part of the class it would seem to me that if you don’t like using kits you would be happier playing something else. Please don’t take that as a snarky comment because I don’t mean it to be, it just seems that you are quite distraught over how you perceive what the class was meant to be versus what it currently is and just trying to save you some frustration.

Actually I’ve been playing a kit based engineer for about eight months now. I started out loving it, but now I’m just freaking sick of it. I want to change my build, but nothing else is viable, so that is getting a bit frustrating.

Do you primarily sPvP, WvW or PVE? The reason I ask is we certainly do have “viable” alternatives to kits, like a sd build, or a elixir based build, of course they are not “viable” for all areas of the game though. As an example I wouldn’t run elixirs in dungeons, or sd in a zerg scenario in WvW but either one of those work perfectly fine in other aspects of the game. I don’t often run tourney pvp so I can’t really advise there, but I do know that quite a few classes get pigeonholed into using one type of build in the tourney pvp meta which is why I primarily avoid it.

ShadowPuppet.3746:

Arkham Creed.7358:

ShadowPuppet.3746:

Arkham Creed.7358:

ShadowPuppet.3746:

Think of it like this, the tool belt skills are our utility slots and the actual utility slots are what we use to put in additional functionality either by adding more weapons or what have you. The main difference is that we don’t get to pick our utilities since they are tied directly to what we pick for our additional functions. What you are saying about the tool belt being our primary class mechanic is technically correct, but you really cannot compare it to other class mechanics because ours is unique to engineer.

You basically just said that our profession mechanic is that we don’t get to choose our utility skills.

Why am I the only one who see this as a problem?

Because I don’t view the engineer tool belt mechanic to be essential to the success of the class. It seems to me that you don’t like using kits (which that is perfectly fine to not) but knowing that they are a huge part of the class it would seem to me that if you don’t like using kits you would be happier playing something else. Please don’t take that as a snarky comment because I don’t mean it to be, it just seems that you are quite distraught over how you perceive what the class was meant to be versus what it currently is and just trying to save you some frustration.

Actually I’ve been playing a kit based engineer for about eight months now. I started out loving it, but now I’m just freaking sick of it. I want to change my build, but nothing else is viable, so that is getting a bit frustrating.

Do you primarily sPvP, WvW or PVE? The reason I ask is we certainly do have “viable” alternatives to kits, like a sd build, or a elixir based build, of course they are not “viable” for all areas of the game though. As an example I wouldn’t run elixirs in dungeons, or sd in a zerg scenario in WvW but either one of those work perfectly fine in other aspects of the game. I don’t often run tourney pvp so I can’t really advise there, but I do know that quite a few classes get pigeonholed into using one type of build in the tourney pvp meta which is why I primarily avoid it.

Bah, I hate pvp and only ever do 1v1 with my fiancee to settle disputes or make…ahem “fun” bets. I like the idea of WvW, but my current computer can’t really handle the zerg, so I generally avoid it. Finally I spend most of my time in PvE open world stuff, living story and map completion mostly. I do dungeons only if I’m looking into a specific reward skin, or to complete each path (once) with each of my characters. I’ll probably try out the updated versions as they roll out, but I don’t really bother with them beyond doing them just so I could say I did them.

Arkham Creed.7358:

ShadowPuppet.3746:

Arkham Creed.7358:

ShadowPuppet.3746:

Arkham Creed.7358:

ShadowPuppet.3746:

Think of it like this, the tool belt skills are our utility slots and the actual utility slots are what we use to put in additional functionality either by adding more weapons or what have you. The main difference is that we don’t get to pick our utilities since they are tied directly to what we pick for our additional functions. What you are saying about the tool belt being our primary class mechanic is technically correct, but you really cannot compare it to other class mechanics because ours is unique to engineer.

You basically just said that our profession mechanic is that we don’t get to choose our utility skills.

Why am I the only one who see this as a problem?

Because I don’t view the engineer tool belt mechanic to be essential to the success of the class. It seems to me that you don’t like using kits (which that is perfectly fine to not) but knowing that they are a huge part of the class it would seem to me that if you don’t like using kits you would be happier playing something else. Please don’t take that as a snarky comment because I don’t mean it to be, it just seems that you are quite distraught over how you perceive what the class was meant to be versus what it currently is and just trying to save you some frustration.

Actually I’ve been playing a kit based engineer for about eight months now. I started out loving it, but now I’m just freaking sick of it. I want to change my build, but nothing else is viable, so that is getting a bit frustrating.

Do you primarily sPvP, WvW or PVE? The reason I ask is we certainly do have “viable” alternatives to kits, like a sd build, or a elixir based build, of course they are not “viable” for all areas of the game though. As an example I wouldn’t run elixirs in dungeons, or sd in a zerg scenario in WvW but either one of those work perfectly fine in other aspects of the game. I don’t often run tourney pvp so I can’t really advise there, but I do know that quite a few classes get pigeonholed into using one type of build in the tourney pvp meta which is why I primarily avoid it.

Bah, I hate pvp and only ever do 1v1 with my fiancee to settle disputes or make…ahem “fun” bets. I like the idea of WvW, but my current computer can’t really handle the zerg, so I generally avoid it. Finally I spend most of my time in PvE open world stuff, living story and map completion mostly. I do dungeons only if I’m looking into a specific reward skin, or to complete each path (once) with each of my characters. I’ll probably try out the updated versions as they roll out, but I don’t really bother with them beyond doing them just so I could say I did them.

Have you tried a rifle sd build? You can pretty much drop any normal mob with your opening burst, it is pretty glassy compared to some of our other options but man is it effective if you are good at positioning and the like. It’s pretty straight forward and easy to use, but it can be a lot of fun obliterating a target in 3 seconds give or take heh. When I am feeling saucy I use it to solo roam in WvW, admittedly it takes catching people unaware, and getting them isolated but you can even drop players in the blink of an eye once you get the hang of it, it’s kind of the ultimate risk vs reward playstyle.

ya… im not going to read all these posts…

The Toolbelt is indeed our “class mechanic”, just like the necro’s is Death Shroud and the Guardian’s Virtues.
But each class does have, for a lack of a better phrase, class sub-mechanics. Such as Thief’s Stealth and Ranger’s Spirits. Some classes share class sub-mechanics, such as Ranger and Thief share Traps, and the Warrior and Guardian share Shouts. A Lot of classes have access to signets.

The weapon kits are just class sub-mechanics, as are turrets and gadgets. I would agree that weapon kits aren’t our main class mechanic, but the toolbelt isnt exactly all that impressive so people shift to what is unique to the engineer and is impressive and focus on that.

Instead oc complaining about weapon kits, you should be upset that the engineer relays on magic potions instead of devices for most of his utility skills.

Anyone with 90c can get my Flamethrower from some vendor…

Everyone has sub abilities. Gadgets, Banners, Elixirs, Shouts, etc. That doesnt make them the profession mechanic.
The profession mechanic is unique to that profession. No one else has adrenaline, initiative, pets(ranger style), illusions/shatter, deathshroud, toolbelt, virtues or atunements.
Those are all unique.

Arkham Creed.7358:

Chaba.5410:

No, they are not passive statistical buffs. If you narrow the terminology down enough, you can exclude anything to prove a point. Yet, as a friend says, if you only watch the finger, you won’t see it pointing at the moon and you shall miss out on all the moon’s wonder and glory.

So you’re suggestion we ignore an established pattern set forth by the developers, refuse to use it as a baseline for judgment, and use the wrong terminology all so that we can pretend something is what it objectively isn’t?

Hardly, and if you re-read my posts above, I agree with you that kits are not a primary profession mechanic. Please try to prove a point without projecting the opposing opinion on others. As for patterns set forth by developers on that class mechanic trait line, you cannot selectively pick “passive statistical buffs” and ignore the traits to prove said point.

Finger. Moon.

I’m assuming there’s a point to all this?

Sure, the tool belt is the profession mechanic, duh. Though mechanics of any class are gestalt in nature, greater than the sum of their parts. Engineers are also the only class with access to only Rifle, Pistol, and Shield. Why? Because the utility skill kits are the source of our build versatility. Saying one mechanic is a “primary mechanic” to somehow suggest the other mechanics that support it are not core mechanics of the class is silly.

My brain is my primary mechanic, but without my rectum mechanic my body fills with toxins, my heart stops, and my brain ceases to function. Just because it’s the primary mechanic doesn’t lessen the significance of other mechanics that make the whole thing work…even a rectum is important.

Arkham Creed.7358:

The only reason we are so dependent on them is poor balance and profession design, making an optional utility skill type so vastly superior to our actual profession mechanic (something undeniably underwhelming) as well as all other utility skill types and our baseline weapon skills that feel compelled to use them in much the same way as other professions are designed to use their profession mechanic.

Please elaborate on how “compelled” other classes are to use their profession mechanics, especially Warriors who deal more damage taking +damage traits based on Adrenaline level rather than actually using their Burst skills.

Or how about Guardians? Virtues are nice, but they’re hardly the most powerful abilities at a Guardian’s disposal. Wall of Reflection and Shield of the Avenger are why they are so sought-after in fractals—not their Virtues. Stand Your Ground is why they’re so sought-after in WvW—not their Virtues.

The assumption that class profession abilities should be their most powerful skill is actually not the case for a lot of classes in this game. It is for some, like Rangers and Mesmers, but it is hardly a requirement or the basis for balance for a lot of classes in this game. Just look at the new Tequatl fight. Elementalists are loved there. Why? For their attunements? No. Because of their Frost Bows and Fiery Greatswords.

I don’t see a problem with Engineers regarding their tool belt.

VIVorcha.7853:

Nobody ever said they were.

People just said that they should be, because they’re so much better than the toolbelt.

Nobody except devs, that balance our class on the assumption we will use kits.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/updates/Game-Update-Notes-December-14-2012/999247
“They can use different kits based on the situation, but this extreme versatility comes at a cost in damage on their main hand weapons.”

NevirSayDie.6235:

The toolbelt is nothing more than extra skills. Kits are also just extra skills.

The engineer mechanic is having more skills available at one time than other professions, whether through kits or through other utility skills with their toolbelt counterparts.

The engineer was beautifully designed. Look at how much variety our engagements have compared to any other profession.

Elementalist with their four attunements say hi.

And guess what? An Elementalist with four attunements still gets to fully choose their utilities. An engineer with four kits doesn’t get to choose any skills at all.

It is my observation that the intent for the creation of this thread was to QQ about the lack of engineer weapon swap. That line of thought again leads to the elementalist class mechanic, attunements, as a useful analogy for kits since elementalist also cannot swap weapons. I do not think this analogy is accidental. Mistake in design? Perhaps. What would your opinion be about elementalist asking for weapon swap?

VIVorcha.7853:

NevirSayDie.6235:

The engineer mechanic is having more skills available at one time than other professions, whether through kits or through other utility skills with their toolbelt counterparts.

Elementalist with their four attunements say hi.

An Elementalist with 4 attunements (5 skills each), 3 utility skills, 1 elite, and 1 healing skill is a total of 25 available skills at their disposal.

An Engineer with a weapon (!!!), 4 tool belt skills, 3 utility kits (5 skills each), 1 healing kit, and 1 elite skill has a total of 30 skills available at their disposal.

Take your time letting it sink in.

Phineas Poe.3018:

VIVorcha.7853:

NevirSayDie.6235:

The engineer mechanic is having more skills available at one time than other professions, whether through kits or through other utility skills with their toolbelt counterparts.

Elementalist with their four attunements say hi.

An Elementalist with 4 attunements (5 skills each), 3 utility skills, 1 elite, and 1 healing skill is a total of 25 available skills at their disposal.

An Engineer with a weapon (!!!), 4 tool belt skills, 3 utility kits (5 skills each), 1 healing kit, and 1 elite skill has a total of 30 skills available at their disposal.

Take your time letting it sink in.

Elementalists can customize their utility and healing skill from the full selection while still achieving 25.

Engineers only have the selection of 5 utility kits.

And three of the skills in medkit are the same.

google.3709:

VIVorcha.7853:

NevirSayDie.6235:

The toolbelt is nothing more than extra skills. Kits are also just extra skills.

The engineer mechanic is having more skills available at one time than other professions, whether through kits or through other utility skills with their toolbelt counterparts.

The engineer was beautifully designed. Look at how much variety our engagements have compared to any other profession.

Elementalist with their four attunements say hi.

And guess what? An Elementalist with four attunements still gets to fully choose their utilities. An engineer with four kits doesn’t get to choose any skills at all.

lol oh god… why do people who know the least about the class are always the ones trying to talk…..

every kit utility gives 5 skills + 1 (toolbelt)… and you do get to chose ur utilities lol no one can force you to run 4 kits, and with the little knowledge you’ve shown about the class, i very well doubt you could handle it… so much ignorance

If you don’t run four kits, you no longer have more skills than an Elementalist.

And Elementalists always have access to 25 skills, regardless of their choice of utilities and healing.

Math is not hard.