I agree that losing the toolbelt would cause us to lose one of our defining mechanics. Hopefully the elite spec would not change us having these available. I was more basing my idea around a solar cell charging; the way the captured energy could be utilised was my point of speculation. I was thinking that it could be our “F” key that activates the additional skill bar (kit) and using the skills might remove energy. This would still enable our toolbelt skills to be active.
Replacing core mechanics is what elite specializations do. They change core mechanics for new functionality while providing new way to approach combat for a profession. It would be nice if engi got finally something new and useful for all game modes that would change the 5 year old playstyle. (I’m looking at you Function Gyro, you useless piece of kitten)
I agree that losing the toolbelt would cause us to lose one of our defining mechanics. Hopefully the elite spec would not change us having these available. I was more basing my idea around a solar cell charging; the way the captured energy could be utilised was my point of speculation. I was thinking that it could be our “F” key that activates the additional skill bar (kit) and using the skills might remove energy. This would still enable our toolbelt skills to be active.
Replacing core mechanics is what elite specializations do. They change core mechanics for new functionality while providing new way to approach combat for a profession. It would be nice if engi got finally something new and useful for all game modes that would change the 5 year old playstyle. (I’m looking at you Function Gyro, you useless piece of kitten)
The problem with scrapper is that it didn’t change anything or added up anything to the Engineer’s core mechanics. You add a Res/Finisher for PVP and no extra toolbelt skill, no change in how turrets work, no change in weapon kits (not even a new weapon kit).
It is just an entirely new class with hammer and overpowered Auras for PVP.
What else do they use from engineer? Elixir Gun? Only to slow down enemies even.
It was a total afterthought of an elite spec. I wished the Gyro would only keep one Aura up at a time, being it so that the function Gyro would be wherever you wanted using the [F] key targeting alies or enemies and there it would do the one activated Gyro skill until you toggled it back by the same utility you used.
Then the other Gyro skills would be actives with cooldowns that you could use when that specific aura was not active.
That way you could be a zoner, like how they wanted Turrets to be. Only that this time you can move your zone of influence around freely and fight from far away if you wanted. Would be great because you could make fields with Mortar Kit anywhere and have the Gyro proc the spin finisher.
Instead of AI it should be controllable. Then we’d be good at back-lining too.
They should redesign the profession to get rid off the tool belt, merging it with slot skills or whatever. Right now it’s restricting the potential of the profession and its future elite specializations.
It doesn’t necessarily affect the potential of future elite specialisations – a future engineer elite specialisation could easily have a feature wherein the elite specialisation has it’s own toolbelt skills rather than having those skills be determined by the slotted utility skills.
Missing out on the current toolbelt skills would be a sacrifice, but the only skill I can think of that would be rendered nonviable by losing the toolbelt skill would be the medkit, and that’s no great loss in its current state as it is (unfortunately).
Well, unless they’re willing to remove the tool belt with elite specializations (which they shouldn’t, because it’s part of core) then we’ll never get new mechanic skills, and if we get them, we’ll be losing options in exchange.
Personally, I would just kill the tool belt, and move kits there. F1+F2, choose 2 kits to equip there. Create a new turret kit, to improve turret management, and rework existing kits. Each new elite specialization could add a new kit as part of it, aside from other changes. Scrapper could add a remote controller kit to improve gyro control, too.
The decent tool belt skills can be saved for the new kits, for new slot skills, or merged with existing slot skills. For example, elixirs are drink in slot, and throw in tool belt. Make it so that you drink it, and then unlock the option to throw them, in the same single skill.
What would making kits into the profession mechanic accomplish? They are now additional weaponsets you don’t have to craft?
The problem with kits is how much overlap there is. Take the meta condi build for example, they use 4 kits, not because “kit too stronk”, but because all 4 have condi abilities.
Each kit should have a clear purpose, and as a result, you will have less reasons to slot all of them.
They say it’s hard to balance kits because it’s 5 skills vs 1. Luckily for engi, the regular skills come with a toolbelt, so they are 2 skills in one. Sure, kits have toolbelt skills, too, but balance them to be only complimentary to the kit’s use, while regular skills should have toolbelt skills as strong as the slot skill itself.
Well, unless they’re willing to remove the tool belt with elite specializations (which they shouldn’t, because it’s part of core) then we’ll never get new mechanic skills, and if we get them, we’ll be losing options in exchange.
There is precedent, however. Dragonhunter and necromancer both had their profession mechanic replaced by something that was similar but equivalent. Doing so with the engineer does have the additional wrinkle that replacing the toolbelt will influence skill balance (making skills with poor toolbelt skills more attractive while making skills with good toolbelt skills less attractive) – however, ArenaNet might consider this a good thing.
Personally, I’d prefer that the the alternative you propose. A lot of the toolbelt skills have interesting mechanics and simply wouldn’t work as the flipovers you suggest – to me, having an elite spec which replaces them would be better than removing them entirely.
(edited by draxynnic.3719)
The problem with scrapper is that it didn’t change anything or added up anything to the Engineer’s core mechanics. You add a Res/Finisher for PVP and no extra toolbelt skill, no change in how turrets work, no change in weapon kits (not even a new weapon kit).
It is just an entirely new class with hammer and overpowered Auras for PVP.
What else do they use from engineer? Elixir Gun? Only to slow down enemies even.It was a total afterthought of an elite spec. I wished the Gyro would only keep one Aura up at a time, being it so that the function Gyro would be wherever you wanted using the [F] key targeting alies or enemies and there it would do the one activated Gyro skill until you toggled it back by the same utility you used.
Then the other Gyro skills would be actives with cooldowns that you could use when that specific aura was not active.That way you could be a zoner, like how they wanted Turrets to be. Only that this time you can move your zone of influence around freely and fight from far away if you wanted. Would be great because you could make fields with Mortar Kit anywhere and have the Gyro proc the spin finisher.
Instead of AI it should be controllable. Then we’d be good at back-lining too.
I completely agree.
First big mistake they did with Scrapper was designing it for only one mode without even thinking of the other.
Second was putting out a traitline that barely even synergizes with its spec and it doesn’t work well with core traitlines. Nowadays engi takes Scrapper traitline because they want hammer, not because of the traits. Hammer was the only good part of the design IMO.
The other was not changing anything for engi with Scrapper in terms of changed gameplay and new functionality. If I don’t play pvp, function gyro is as useful as Evon Gnashblade’s flair from Cutthroat Politics. Don’t try to even talk about reviving, until I target my teammate, I can run to him and res him myself.
And another big problem is IMO that gyros weren’t improved, they were nerfed to the ground especially with the daze removal. They were bad thanks to the stupid AI and wonky pathing from the start and they made them even worse.
If the next engi spec won’t drastically change the way we play engi and we’ll be stuck with the same old kit build again then I guess, I’ll look for a different profession. And I can’t believe I say that when I’ve been maining engi since vanilla and have couple of thousand of hours of playtime with this profession.
To be fair there is plenty of synergy with Scrapper, and it’s very nice in WvW as well as PVP. The problem is it’s just underpowered all around for PVE and Function Gyro is just pitiful there. Stab on dodge, stab = might, gyro = stab, lightning field and superspeed, superspeed = higher regen, lightning field blasted = superspeed… lots of synergy options, just lots of them are weak, impractical or nerfed like daze/stun increase when most of those were taken away.
Yeah, I think removing the dazes without thinking about that trait was one of their bigger mistakes. Core engineer has very few dazes and stuns, most of its CC coming in other forms, so the main source for the scrapper is the hammer and the drones. While I can understand that the result probably was too much CC (and to be honest, it probably was) it does leave the scrapper with a minor grandmaster trait that maybe gives you an additional 3/4s total of daze and stun when you use the Thunderclap + Rocket Charge combo?
They really should have reworked the trait.
The major master traits also have problems in that there is no ‘generic’ trait in that tier. The traits in that tier will only have their full effect if you have swiftness/superspeed, dazes/stuns, or stability in your build (or will be receiving the appropriate boons from your allies). You can make builds that don’t use hammer or gyros that will benefit from the scrapper line, but you can’t just take any core build, add scrapper to it, and expect all the traits to work.
This is in contrast to a lot of the other elite specialisations, which do allow for selecting a full set of traits that will benefit you regardless of what other skills and traits you have equipped.
First big mistake they did with Scrapper was designing it for only one mode without even thinking of the other.
i dont think thats a mistake. the mistake is in not being able to push out another elite spec for 2-3 years.
First big mistake they did with Scrapper was designing it for only one mode without even thinking of the other.
i dont think thats a mistake. the mistake is in not being able to push out another elite spec for 2-3 years.
It’s not mistake that the elite spec is useless for one mode? You’ve got to be kidding me… And it’s not like they’re unable to push out another elite spec between the expansions. It’s the design choice to make it an expansion selling feature.
What would making kits into the profession mechanic accomplish? They are now additional weaponsets you don’t have to craft?
The problem with kits is how much overlap there is. Take the meta condi build for example, they use 4 kits, not because “kit too stronk”, but because all 4 have condi abilities.
Each kit should have a clear purpose, and as a result, you will have less reasons to slot all of them.
They say it’s hard to balance kits because it’s 5 skills vs 1. Luckily for engi, the regular skills come with a toolbelt, so they are 2 skills in one. Sure, kits have toolbelt skills, too, but balance them to be only complimentary to the kit’s use, while regular skills should have toolbelt skills as strong as the slot skill itself.
Kits take up slot skills, which should be used for actual slot skills. Also, there isn’t a fixed number of kits you can have simultaneously, so they’re harder to balance. If you want good kits, they need to be more restrictive, and separate from slot skills, so those can be made better too.
It’s not just a balance problem, design-wise future elite specializations have more freedom too, and could open the way for new kits. And of course, you have more room in the mechanic bar for the functions of those new elite specializations. Scrapper could have pet-like controls for gyros, so they aren’t so terrible.
Well, unless they’re willing to remove the tool belt with elite specializations (which they shouldn’t, because it’s part of core) then we’ll never get new mechanic skills, and if we get them, we’ll be losing options in exchange.
There is precedent, however. Dragonhunter and necromancer both had their profession mechanic replaced by something that was similar but equivalent. Doing so with the engineer does have the additional wrinkle that replacing the toolbelt will influence skill balance (making skills with poor toolbelt skills more attractive while making skills with good toolbelt skills less attractive) – however, ArenaNet might consider this a good thing.
Personally, I’d prefer that the the alternative you propose. A lot of the toolbelt skills have interesting mechanics and simply wouldn’t work as the flipovers you suggest – to me, having an elite spec which replaces them would be better than removing them entirely.
Those are an upgrade, or a variation. You can’t really do that with all the skills of the tool belt. The only thing you get is new tool belt skills with the new slot skills.
If they ever want to use the mechanic bar for anything, they would need to nuke the tool belt, which would lead to many problems, since you would be losing so many vital tool belt skills.
First big mistake they did with Scrapper was designing it for only one mode without even thinking of the other.
i dont think thats a mistake. the mistake is in not being able to push out another elite spec for 2-3 years.
It’s not mistake that the elite spec is useless for one mode? You’ve got to be kidding me… And it’s not like they’re unable to push out another elite spec between the expansions. It’s the design choice to make it an expansion selling feature.
no I’m not kidding you. and yeah they are unable to, cuz if they could’ve they would’ve.
as an example, look at warrior. Warriors only take tactics in pve, and only if there are 2 or less warriors present. but it’s not a design mistake to have someone be a buff bot, just a choice. we could get rid of buff bots entirely too, and the game would be a little less interesting.
when you have the choice of running 3-5 different elite specs, it’s not a bad thing for at least 1 of them to be irrelevant to whatever you are currently doing, cuz theres something else it’s better at.
Well, unless they’re willing to remove the tool belt with elite specializations (which they shouldn’t, because it’s part of core) then we’ll never get new mechanic skills, and if we get them, we’ll be losing options in exchange.
There is precedent, however. Dragonhunter and necromancer both had their profession mechanic replaced by something that was similar but equivalent. Doing so with the engineer does have the additional wrinkle that replacing the toolbelt will influence skill balance (making skills with poor toolbelt skills more attractive while making skills with good toolbelt skills less attractive) – however, ArenaNet might consider this a good thing.
Personally, I’d prefer that the the alternative you propose. A lot of the toolbelt skills have interesting mechanics and simply wouldn’t work as the flipovers you suggest – to me, having an elite spec which replaces them would be better than removing them entirely.
Those are an upgrade, or a variation. You can’t really do that with all the skills of the tool belt. The only thing you get is new tool belt skills with the new slot skills.
If they ever want to use the mechanic bar for anything, they would need to nuke the tool belt, which would lead to many problems, since you would be losing so many vital tool belt skills.
Which toolbelt skills do you consider ‘vital’?
F1 usually supplements your healing. This can be substituted for by having the elite specialisation’s F1 provide a similar healing/survival effect. Medkit would be substantially disadvantaged, but it wouldn’t be hard to have a skill in there that’s roughly equivalent to the healing turret and Elixir H toolbelt skills.
The other toolbelt skills… none of them are vital. Really. Useful, sure, but a specific, fixed toolbelt for an elite specialisation could bring capabilities that compensate for the loss of the current toolbelt.
What would making kits into the profession mechanic accomplish? They are now additional weaponsets you don’t have to craft?
The problem with kits is how much overlap there is. Take the meta condi build for example, they use 4 kits, not because “kit too stronk”, but because all 4 have condi abilities.
Each kit should have a clear purpose, and as a result, you will have less reasons to slot all of them.
They say it’s hard to balance kits because it’s 5 skills vs 1. Luckily for engi, the regular skills come with a toolbelt, so they are 2 skills in one. Sure, kits have toolbelt skills, too, but balance them to be only complimentary to the kit’s use, while regular skills should have toolbelt skills as strong as the slot skill itself.
Kits take up slot skills, which should be used for actual slot skills. Also, there isn’t a fixed number of kits you can have simultaneously, so they’re harder to balance.
Yes, there is, it’s 5. And for every kit you take, you sacrifice 1 heal/utility/elite slot. Which is why pvp uses less kits.
The problem in pve is that all 4 kits used are dps increases over any other utility you could take in their place. We don’t use them because they have 5 skills, we use 1-2 skills from every kit and drop it.
And that’s where the design problem is, that there’s so much overlapping between the kits when skills that serve the same purpose are found in 4 different kits.
If bomb didn’t do condi damage, you would take Rocket Boots, simple as that.
(edited by RabbitUp.8294)
Well, unless they’re willing to remove the tool belt with elite specializations (which they shouldn’t, because it’s part of core) then we’ll never get new mechanic skills, and if we get them, we’ll be losing options in exchange.
There is precedent, however. Dragonhunter and necromancer both had their profession mechanic replaced by something that was similar but equivalent. Doing so with the engineer does have the additional wrinkle that replacing the toolbelt will influence skill balance (making skills with poor toolbelt skills more attractive while making skills with good toolbelt skills less attractive) – however, ArenaNet might consider this a good thing.
Personally, I’d prefer that the the alternative you propose. A lot of the toolbelt skills have interesting mechanics and simply wouldn’t work as the flipovers you suggest – to me, having an elite spec which replaces them would be better than removing them entirely.
Those are an upgrade, or a variation. You can’t really do that with all the skills of the tool belt. The only thing you get is new tool belt skills with the new slot skills.
If they ever want to use the mechanic bar for anything, they would need to nuke the tool belt, which would lead to many problems, since you would be losing so many vital tool belt skills.
Which toolbelt skills do you consider ‘vital’?
F1 usually supplements your healing. This can be substituted for by having the elite specialisation’s F1 provide a similar healing/survival effect. Medkit would be substantially disadvantaged, but it wouldn’t be hard to have a skill in there that’s roughly equivalent to the healing turret and Elixir H toolbelt skills.
The other toolbelt skills… none of them are vital. Really. Useful, sure, but a specific, fixed toolbelt for an elite specialisation could bring capabilities that compensate for the loss of the current toolbelt.
Personally? Maybe one or two skills, which could be easily adapted to the slot skill bar, or given to kits. So yeah, me, personally, I don’t consider the tool belt vital. That’s why I’m advocating for its removal, to be replaced with something better (probably won’t happen, but well, one can dream).
Other people could consider it very important, that’s why I added that note, to show that the tool belt can be removed without losing the tool belt skills forever.
What would making kits into the profession mechanic accomplish? They are now additional weaponsets you don’t have to craft?
The problem with kits is how much overlap there is. Take the meta condi build for example, they use 4 kits, not because “kit too stronk”, but because all 4 have condi abilities.
Each kit should have a clear purpose, and as a result, you will have less reasons to slot all of them.
They say it’s hard to balance kits because it’s 5 skills vs 1. Luckily for engi, the regular skills come with a toolbelt, so they are 2 skills in one. Sure, kits have toolbelt skills, too, but balance them to be only complimentary to the kit’s use, while regular skills should have toolbelt skills as strong as the slot skill itself.
Kits take up slot skills, which should be used for actual slot skills. Also, there isn’t a fixed number of kits you can have simultaneously, so they’re harder to balance.
Yes, there is, it’s 5. And for every kit you take, you sacrifice 1 heal/utility/elite slot.
The problem in pve is that all 4 kits used are dps increases over any other utility you could take in their place. We don’t use them because they have 5 skills, we use 1-2 skills from every kit and drop it.
And that’s where the design problem is, that there’s so much overlapping between the kits when skills that serve the same purpose are found in 4 different kits.
If bomb didn’t do condi damage, you would take Rocket Boots, simple as that.
Kits need to have clearly defined roles and be much better, but if they make them better, then you will only use kits. That’s why I think kits will never be good as long as they’re still slot skills.
The first restriction we need is being unable to equip as many kits as you want, and the simplest solution for that is to equip them through the mechanic bar, in a limited number of slots (F1 and F2, for example). This way they can start balancing around everyone having 2 kits, instead of some people using no kits, and other people using 5 kits.
Why would a power build take a pure condi kit? Why would a regular build take a healing med kit or a tanking tool kit?
Having clearly defined roles means they won’t fit in every build.
What would making kits into the profession mechanic accomplish? They are now additional weaponsets you don’t have to craft?
The problem with kits is how much overlap there is. Take the meta condi build for example, they use 4 kits, not because “kit too stronk”, but because all 4 have condi abilities.
Each kit should have a clear purpose, and as a result, you will have less reasons to slot all of them.
They say it’s hard to balance kits because it’s 5 skills vs 1. Luckily for engi, the regular skills come with a toolbelt, so they are 2 skills in one. Sure, kits have toolbelt skills, too, but balance them to be only complimentary to the kit’s use, while regular skills should have toolbelt skills as strong as the slot skill itself.
Kits take up slot skills, which should be used for actual slot skills. Also, there isn’t a fixed number of kits you can have simultaneously, so they’re harder to balance.
Yes, there is, it’s 5. And for every kit you take, you sacrifice 1 heal/utility/elite slot. Which is why pvp uses less kits.
ow no.
3-4 kits used to be pvp standard. then elite specs came out and… hammer fills enough time + can stomp and cleave/cc (not or) + a bunch of ccs the opponent won’t reasonably dodge on a bunch of low cd skills that have instant casts = you don’t need more kits. if core engi did multiple things at once like scrapper can, more kits would still be meta. scrappers aren’t sacrificing kits. theyre taking gyros.
That would be true if pvp was only kits and gyros. Elixirs and Rocket Boots are seeing use, too. And that just proves my point that kits can be replaced by single skills. If kits would serve a purpose in the build, they would be picked, there’s no “you don’t need more kits”. It just means that the don’t add something to the build that is more valuable than the utility you will miss.
Cleaving was just a weird thing for engi because our weapons didn’t have it, while all other classes have multiple weapons that do. Main-hand sword will have cleave, too, so there’s no need to take a kit for it.
And this is pvp anyway, the talk was about pve.
Honestly, I only use Rocket Boots because it’s my favourite skill. I am under no illusions that it is good. It isn’t. If it had been designed for HoT, it’d break stun, evade the whole time, heal at the end, and bake me cupcakes.
I mean, this is something that competes with Elixir Gun for a slot. Elixir gun heals, blasts, breaks stun, escapes, cleanses lots of condi, damages/debuffs enemies, buffs allies, and has range all for 1 skill slot on short cooldowns. So .. why would anyone take a single skill over all that?
Gadgets need to be at least that good to be regularly chosen for competitive gameplay.
Elixirs do see play, but only because they are literally the ONLY method of cleansing enough conditions on base Engi. Practically every competitive engi build runs Alchemy for this reason, and most run as few elixirs as they can get away with.
engi has always had good cleave forever….
Well, unless they’re willing to remove the tool belt with elite specializations (which they shouldn’t, because it’s part of core) then we’ll never get new mechanic skills, and if we get them, we’ll be losing options in exchange.
There is precedent, however. Dragonhunter and necromancer both had their profession mechanic replaced by something that was similar but equivalent. Doing so with the engineer does have the additional wrinkle that replacing the toolbelt will influence skill balance (making skills with poor toolbelt skills more attractive while making skills with good toolbelt skills less attractive) – however, ArenaNet might consider this a good thing.
Personally, I’d prefer that the the alternative you propose. A lot of the toolbelt skills have interesting mechanics and simply wouldn’t work as the flipovers you suggest – to me, having an elite spec which replaces them would be better than removing them entirely.
Those are an upgrade, or a variation. You can’t really do that with all the skills of the tool belt. The only thing you get is new tool belt skills with the new slot skills.
If they ever want to use the mechanic bar for anything, they would need to nuke the tool belt, which would lead to many problems, since you would be losing so many vital tool belt skills.
Which toolbelt skills do you consider ‘vital’?
F1 usually supplements your healing. This can be substituted for by having the elite specialisation’s F1 provide a similar healing/survival effect. Medkit would be substantially disadvantaged, but it wouldn’t be hard to have a skill in there that’s roughly equivalent to the healing turret and Elixir H toolbelt skills.
The other toolbelt skills… none of them are vital. Really. Useful, sure, but a specific, fixed toolbelt for an elite specialisation could bring capabilities that compensate for the loss of the current toolbelt.
Personally? Maybe one or two skills, which could be easily adapted to the slot skill bar, or given to kits. So yeah, me, personally, I don’t consider the tool belt vital. That’s why I’m advocating for its removal, to be replaced with something better (probably won’t happen, but well, one can dream).
Other people could consider it very important, that’s why I added that note, to show that the tool belt can be removed without losing the tool belt skills forever.
Which means you can have elite specialisations that replace the toolbelt without destroying it forever for all engineer builds as you are advocating for. Sure, your proposal might allow for some of the skills to be salvaged, but how many could we realistically expect to be converted into slot skills? Six, to replace the kits? That’s a lot of content being thrown out with the bathwater that isn’t even as dirty as you claim.
What you propose is a total rebuild of the engineer from the ground up that will turn it into a new profession altogether. It also feels like you’re trying to pull your proposal which already has its own thread into what should be a completely separate thread. There is no justification for your claim that the toolbelt must be removed to allow for elite specialisations to have their own mechanic that uses the F1-F5 keys – all that is required is for the toolbelt to be replaced for that specialisation.
engi has always had good cleave forever….
I think he’s talking about the base weapons which pistol and rifle did pretty poorly… but that’s all the more reason why I think the idea of a kitless build is unrealistic. We were built with at least using one in mind hence no weapon swap and overall weaker base weaponry.
engi has always had good cleave forever….
I think he’s talking about the base weapons which pistol and rifle did pretty poorly… but that’s all the more reason why I think the idea of a kitless build is unrealistic. We were built with at least using one in mind hence no weapon swap and overall weaker base weaponry.
yeah I guess I don’t think it’s a good idea to exclude “kits” from “weapons”, it’s just not engi and hasn’t really ever been.
but i do wanna say that pistol piercing used to wreck big, tight groups and that may be why anet still seems afraid to buff the auto.
Pistol rounds piercing did go away with the pre-HoT trait revamp, though, and I think they have the technology now to stop pistol piercing from generating arbitrarily high damage anyway. Nowadays, it’s pretty much just a weak fireball that bleeds the primary target.
as an example, look at warrior. Warriors only take tactics in pve, and only if there are 2 or less warriors present. but it’s not a design mistake to have someone be a buff bot, just a choice. we could get rid of buff bots entirely too, and the game would be a little less interesting.
Comparing a core trait line with elite spec trait line is out of place. They’re not equal. All other elite specs and especially their mechanics are useful in all modes. Scrapper’s isn’t. This isn’t right.
when you have the choice of running 3-5 different elite specs, it’s not a bad thing for at least 1 of them to be irrelevant to whatever you are currently doing, cuz theres something else it’s better at.
Yeah, when we’ll have 3 elite specs. Let’s wait 2-4 more years to get a different playstyle and functionality. Pathetic.
as an example, look at warrior. Warriors only take tactics in pve, and only if there are 2 or less warriors present. but it’s not a design mistake to have someone be a buff bot, just a choice. we could get rid of buff bots entirely too, and the game would be a little less interesting.
Comparing a core trait line with elite spec trait line is out of place. They’re not equal. All other elite specs and especially their mechanics are useful in all modes. Scrapper’s isn’t. This isn’t right.
when you have the choice of running 3-5 different elite specs, it’s not a bad thing for at least 1 of them to be irrelevant to whatever you are currently doing, cuz theres something else it’s better at.
Yeah, when we’ll have 3 elite specs. Let’s wait 2-4 more years to get a different playstyle and functionality. Pathetic.
ps warrior existed prior to HoT, when core specs were all there was. i realize its not an elite spec and thats why im throwing it out as an example of the design concept of making an entire trait line useless in 2/3 game modes, not as an example of an elite spec.
and im saying theyre going too slow with elite specs too. 2 years is too long to wait for a system that needs as much variety as theyve planned for it to have.
ps warrior existed prior to HoT, when core specs were all there was. i realize its not an elite spec and thats why im throwing it out as an example of the design concept of making an entire trait line useless in 2/3 game modes, not as an example of an elite spec.
and im saying theyre going too slow with elite specs too. 2 years is too long to wait for a system that needs as much variety as theyve planned for it to have.
Again, core trait is different to elite spec trait. IMO they can’t be compared. Core trait line doesn’t unlock weapon or other skills. Core trait line doesn’t change elite spec mechanics (Besides Scrapper for pve ha ha…)
I however agree, we could use more elite specs but with the current situation, they could be at least more impactful and useful for all modes. And they are besides Scrapper (again). Reaper shroud, zerker state, new virtues, etc all are useful in all modes. Besides the Function Gyro. And if we’re getting new elite spec only each 2 years then they better be useful in all modes.
It’s been 5 years and engi is still stuck with kits and p/p, nothing really changed. I don’t know about you, I want change. And as a mostly pve player, it’s the most noticeable for engi IMO.
Core trait line doesn’t change elite spec mechanics (Besides Scrapper for pve ha ha…)
Technically speaking, function gyro does have a use in PvE. It’s just not a very useful one…
If they’d made downed state more common in PvE, it’d probably be a lot more popular.
If they’d made downed state more common in PvE, it’d probably be a lot more popular.
I’d agree if teammate targeting wasn’t so wonky. Currently you can res them faster by yourself than send f-gyro to do it.
If they’d made downed state more common in PvE, it’d probably be a lot more popular.
I’d agree if teammate targeting wasn’t so wonky. Currently you can res them faster by yourself than send f-gyro to do it.
Depends on the circumstances, but I’ll admit that the wonkiness doesn’t help.
ps warrior existed prior to HoT, when core specs were all there was. i realize its not an elite spec and thats why im throwing it out as an example of the design concept of making an entire trait line useless in 2/3 game modes, not as an example of an elite spec.
and im saying theyre going too slow with elite specs too. 2 years is too long to wait for a system that needs as much variety as theyve planned for it to have.
Again, core trait is different to elite spec trait. IMO they can’t be compared. Core trait line doesn’t unlock weapon or other skills. Core trait line doesn’t change elite spec mechanics (Besides Scrapper for pve ha ha…)
I however agree, we could use more elite specs but with the current situation, they could be at least more impactful and useful for all modes. And they are besides Scrapper (again). Reaper shroud, zerker state, new virtues, etc all are useful in all modes. Besides the Function Gyro. And if we’re getting new elite spec only each 2 years then they better be useful in all modes.
It’s been 5 years and engi is still stuck with kits and p/p, nothing really changed. I don’t know about you, I want change. And as a mostly pve player, it’s the most noticeable for engi IMO.
again, you arent getting what im saying. ill try again: im not comparing core spec vs elite spec. im saying that regardless of whether a certain trait line is core or elite, it will be useful in some circumstances and useless in others. and it should be like that.
since you seem to only want to discuss elite specs and dont accept a core spec as an example of a thing being useless under a condition, heres another one – druid. its pretty much the same condition as ps warrior, but the difference is you wont use the elite spec under the condition instead of a core spec – when you already have a druid in a group, you dont want another one and the 2nd ranger player is asked to respec to condi ranger because its a dps boost.
it happens all over. its just usually not with elite specs because theyre so op. and of course its always better if there is some use than no use, like using 1 ps warrior or 1 druid at a time. and i would say that that in fact should be a design goal, even though it means only 1-2 players get to fill that role in any given group its still creating a role to fill that makes people feel useful.
and i will say it for the 3rd time in this argument(?) that i feel like anet has moved too slow on elite specs and balance and has left us hanging. “i dont know about you” isnt something you need to be saying here, i very clearly agree. i dont really know why youre so combative.
Core trait line doesn’t change elite spec mechanics (Besides Scrapper for pve ha ha…)
Technically speaking, function gyro does have a use in PvE. It’s just not a very useful one…
If they’d made downed state more common in PvE, it’d probably be a lot more popular.
Ugh, no. If you could res yourself with it, sure. But most of the times it’s easier to just kill something close to them so they Rally or res personally. Unless in this game we had more ENEMIES on the downed state, but then again you can DPS your way out of this anyhow.
Kits just need to be updated, gadgets buffed and turrets reworked. You don’t need to do all of this, but sure doing some would help.
The problem with kit’s btw is that there is always a clear DPS choice among all the 5 skills it gives and all the rest sucks. They designed it so you’d only use one kit, so they tried to make it so each kit could fit any kind of play style and do everything on it’s own. Almost every kit that is part of our meta builds have an auto, a burn, a CC and a poison basically. If you play condi you’ll always get the all the burns, then all the poisons an by that time you’ll have refreshed the cooldowns of your other burns.
It’s just that all our good damage skills are scattered on multiple kits.
And the saddest part and what makes it a problem is that we need them all, in that order to compete with the DPS of other condis out there that do much less work for it.
It would be okay if we could choose not to use 2, 3 or 4 kits and then still do decent DPS, but we cant. Heck, I’d be happy if I even needed to know what skills (3), (4),(5) in some of my kits did, because I never get to use them and I don’t even have time to, because there is no way anything there would be better than adding up my burn stacks.
The class was meant to be the one with “always the perfect tool for the right situation” but we just have so many tools that are always wrong.
They need to remove the generic aspect of kits and empower them on different ways. Then make the same with gadgets.
If you play ranged you might need a certain gadget and a certain kit and maybe 1 turret or 1 elixir, if you play close-quarters or condi you then need a different kit with a completely different gadget and one elixir or turret that better suits you.
We should be able to BUILD to the situation instead of equiping everything and rolling our face over the keyboard.
Core trait line doesn’t change elite spec mechanics (Besides Scrapper for pve ha ha…)
Technically speaking, function gyro does have a use in PvE. It’s just not a very useful one…
If they’d made downed state more common in PvE, it’d probably be a lot more popular.
Ugh, no. If you could res yourself with it, sure. But most of the times it’s easier to just kill something close to them so they Rally or res personally. Unless in this game we had more ENEMIES on the downed state, but then again you can DPS your way out of this anyhow.
Which is why I said “technically speaking” and “it’s just not a very useful one”. There are situations in PvE where I’ve used the function gyro – typically in boss fights where there isn’t a convenient easy kill for them to rally off, but throwing the gyro out means a) I can get back to DPSing faster, and b) I’m not putting myself at risk to help them.
Is it comparable to what the other elite specs have? Heck no. But completely, absolutely, you-will-never-use-this-even-if-you-look-for-opportunities-to-do-so? No.
Regarding your other comments:
I haven’t taken an engineer into a raid, but from what I’ve seen, heard, and read, the effect of those complicated rotations is generally a matter of eking out those last few percentage points of damage. Both the condition and power builds have a clear dominant kit (grenades and bombs respectively) – the other kits have a handful of skills that will increase your DPS by a bit if you include them in the rotation, but there’s one kit that’s doing the proverbial heavy lifting.
The fact that the difference provided by the additional kits is relatively small suggests that the two skills provided by non-kit utilities could be buffed to compete. We saw, in the recent patch, a move to make turrets more useful – this could make Flame Turret a competitive addition to condition builds in the foreseeable future (as Rifle Turret is for power) with some suitable buffs, while other turrets could work their way into power builds (again, with suitable buffs). A lot of the gadgets could also have potential for power builds, particularly if they’re split so they don’t become too strong in PvP.
Regarding your observation about each kit trying to do everything: I don’t think this was actually a design goal so much as the devs putting into each kit what they felt made sense without thinking about what overall purpose it would have. There was a lot of that in the weapons available on release, but most of them have since been rebalanced. The recent adjustments to the flamethrower, like them or not, do seem to have been intended to push it more fully into the condition role, which in the bigger picture is probably a step in the right direction. The problem is that it’s hard to see how they can implement the same sense of focus to grenade, bomb, and mortar, since in those cases most of the distinction between the 2-5 skills is simply which condition they apply.
I guess what they could do is:
1) Change Fire Bomb into a power fire field (similar to Lava Font), and give Concussion Bomb a higher damage and replace Confusion with debilitating conditions such as Weakness and Cripple.
2) Make Poison Gas Bomb more Power-oriented, like Poison Bomb from the Itzel/Coztic Shadowleapers.
3) Grenade kit can probably be left as a hybrid, but decreasing the power coefficient on the shrapnel and poison grenades might help to pull them out of the power build rotation and cement grenades as a condition set.
4) Elixir gun can go either way. Since flamethrower and grenades are already good for conditions, though, I’d probably push it towards power to make it a suitable ranged kit for power builds. Increase the power damage on Tranquiliser Dart and remove the bleeding. Fumigate could also have its power damage increased and the poison decreased (the poison duration is short enough that in gameplay it’s not much different to direct damage anyway – you could make it so that each tick only applies a minute duration of poison and the final tick applies two seconds similar to flamethrower applying Burning, and compensate for the reduced poison damage with increased power damage).
5) Toolkit… hrrrmn. Could also go either way thematically. If bombs go power, however, it might be most suitable to have the toolkit go condi. Can we find a way to justify applying a damaging condition by smacking someone with a wrench? If it’s already applying Cripple, we could probably justify Torment… (“After what I just did you your leg, I DARE you to try walking on it now!”)
(edited by draxynnic.3719)
again, you arent getting what im saying. ill try again: im not comparing core spec vs elite spec. im saying that regardless of whether a certain trait line is core or elite, it will be useful in some circumstances and useless in others. and it should be like that.
since you seem to only want to discuss elite specs and dont accept a core spec as an example of a thing being useless under a condition, heres another one – druid. its pretty much the same condition as ps warrior, but the difference is you wont use the elite spec under the condition instead of a core spec – when you already have a druid in a group, you dont want another one and the 2nd ranger player is asked to respec to condi ranger because its a dps boost.
it happens all over. its just usually not with elite specs because theyre so op. and of course its always better if there is some use than no use, like using 1 ps warrior or 1 druid at a time. and i would say that that in fact should be a design goal, even though it means only 1-2 players get to fill that role in any given group its still creating a role to fill that makes people feel useful.
and i will say it for the 3rd time in this argument(?) that i feel like anet has moved too slow on elite specs and balance and has left us hanging. “i dont know about you” isnt something you need to be saying here, i very clearly agree. i dont really know why youre so combative.
Your druid example isn’t very good one. Druid’s spec is useful in all modes. Sure, it’s not good for every occasion and in some cases it’s worse than the core spec but it’s still good for each mode. Scrapper isn’t. That’s my whole point. I want an elite spec to be useful for each mode. I don’t want an elite spec to be good for every occasion, that would just be silly.
I agree with your claim that Anet has probably moved too slow on elite specs and balance. But suggesting that Anet should get faster with pumping out of the elite specs seems much less realistic to me than making the elite spec usable for each mode.
If I seem combative, I’m sorry. I’m just passionate about this topic (maybe too much).
I’d say that scrapper is useful for PvE. Hammer is still a decent weapon, and some of the gyros certainly have their uses. They’re just not useful in raids where generally the most important thing for most squad members is eking out the most DPS.
Broadly speaking, elite specialisations were billed as being sidegrades, rather than straight-out upgrades. Statistically speaking, if this was true, roughly half of the optimised builds for any game mode should be core. The fact that this obviously isn’t true shows that the current elite specs are mostly still overtuned.
In the case of the engineer, scrapper is certainly a more defensive-oriented elite specialisation, and the engineer does have a decent set of damage-oriented traits, so I don’t think it’s necessarily a problem if the highest DPS is coming out of a core build, as long as that DPS is competitive with what other professions are bringing (with or without elite specialisations).
(edited by draxynnic.3719)
It’s been 5 years and engi is still stuck with kits and p/p, nothing really changed. I don’t know about you, I want change. And as a mostly pve player, it’s the most noticeable for engi IMO.
Yeah, I pretty much stopped playing my engineer because it’s just boring after 4 years, and he was my main for PvP for a long time.
Core professions should be upgraded when elite specializations are released, too. Give us main-hand mace, an elite gadget, etc. Elite specs shouldn’t be the only new things every 2 years.
I’d say that scrapper is useful for PvE. Hammer is still a decent weapon, and some of the gyros certainly have their uses. They’re just not useful in raids where generally the most important thing for most squad members is eking out the most DPS.
Broadly speaking, elite specialisations were billed as being sidegrades, rather than straight-out upgrades. Statistically speaking, if this was true, roughly half of the optimised builds for any game mode should be core. The fact that this obviously isn’t true shows that the current elite specs are mostly still overtuned.
In the case of the engineer, scrapper is certainly a more defensive-oriented elite specialisation, and the engineer does have a decent set of damage-oriented traits, so I don’t think it’s necessarily a problem if the highest DPS is coming out of a core build, as long as that DPS is competitive with what other professions are bringing (with or without elite specialisations).
IMO Scrapper was originally supposed to be defense oriented tank. In pve it’s lackluster in this role. So you won’t take Scrapper to tank. For condi you won’t take Scrapper, for power you won’t take Scrapper, for healing you won’t take engi in general. Sure, it can be used elsewhere but you can play anything else in pve that’s not instanced group content with anything. Hell, you can unequip traits and utility skills and still be able to do well in open world because it’s stupidly easy.
I’ve yet to meet someone who even picks Scrapper traitline for the traits alone and not for the hammer. I’d love it if Scrapper was another good tank alternative. Or support one even.
I agree that the elite specs shouldn’t be upgrades. But Scrapper in pve isn’t even a sidegrade. It’s closer to downgrade.
Agreed, it is one of the characteristics of the scrapper traits that if you’re not running hammer or gyros, the traitline doesn’t have much to offer you.
I’m not sure if this is really a bad thing, as long as it is worth it if you ARE using hammer, gyros, or both. But it is a distinction versus some elite specialisations which definitely are useful without using their weapon or skills.
When it comes to open world stuff… I’d disagree that you can do anything because it’s stupidly easy. Sure, most open world boss fights you can often sit back and spam 1 and get your contribution (having been carried by everyone else) but there are places that will stretch you if you’re in there alone. Defensive skills, particularly defensive skills that allow you to attack simultaneously, do help there.
I would be inclined to agree, however, that scrapper does seem to be designed as a ‘tank’. The problem is that if this was intended to be their role in raids… well, that’s not how the tanking role in raids actually works. For those raid bosses where a tank is useful, the tank is generally pretty much decided on the basis of who gives up the least damage by taking toughness gear.
I agree that the elite specs shouldn’t be upgrades. But Scrapper in pve isn’t even a sidegrade. It’s closer to downgrade.
The issue with the scrapper isn’t that it relies on gyros or hammers to be effective. The hammer is actually an incredibly strong weapon with tons of utility, and the function gyro is a very good mechanic as people always inevitably go down in raids (and the ability to res someone without sacrificing DPS is criminally underrated). The only real problem with the scrapper is that it has no outward party buffs that would make it a remotely competitive support choice in PvE content. As a support role it’s incredibly effective, but it has no edge or advantage over other professions when it comes to elevating party DPS.
The three primary support roles in PvE currently are mesmers dumping alacrity, PS warrior distributing might, and rangers providing healing. And while an engineer could essentially fill the role of a support character providing healing for their team, we don’t have Frost Spirit, Fire Spirit, or Gift of the Land. We don’t have banners or access to alacrity either.
As a sum of its parts, the scrapper just doesn’t contribute as much as a support role as much as other professions do—and that’s why it failed to garner any attention in PvE while being the meta spec in PvP and WvW where the specialization obviously flexes its muscles. It’s a very well designed elite specialization tree, and it has utility in both raids and high end fractals, but it’s just not the best choice—and therefore not a choice at all.
Scrapper’s mechanic in pve is useful at getting prestige points when you are doing Tarnished Traitor under octovine. All other players get [F] Revive, while you can be at range and stomp as soon as he goes down.
And that’s pretty much it. If it teleported the ally to you, it would be a lot more useful.
If they’d made downed state more common in PvE, it’d probably be a lot more popular.
I’d agree if teammate targeting wasn’t so wonky. Currently you can res them faster by yourself than send f-gyro to do it.
Or you can do both and rez them at double speed.
I’ve yet to meet someone who even picks Scrapper traitline for the traits alone and not for the hammer.
My build would like a second opinion of this :P
The Scrapper traitline is all but mandatory for pvp/wvw – even for non-hammer builds. If you don’t take it, you’re at a huge disadvantage losing access to function gyro. It is by far the worst elite spec mechanic – useless in pve, but good at what it does in competitive game modes.
It also comes with some decent defensive traits and gives you access to sneak + purge gyros.
I’ve yet to meet someone who even picks Scrapper traitline for the traits alone and not for the hammer.
My build would like a second opinion of this :P
all you gotta do is look for a flamethrower camper, theyre all over open world
I agree that losing the toolbelt would cause us to lose one of our defining mechanics. Hopefully the elite spec would not change us having these available. I was more basing my idea around a solar cell charging; the way the captured energy could be utilised was my point of speculation. I was thinking that it could be our “F” key that activates the additional skill bar (kit) and using the skills might remove energy. This would still enable our toolbelt skills to be active.
Replacing core mechanics is what elite specializations do. They change core mechanics for new functionality while providing new way to approach combat for a profession. It would be nice if engi got finally something new and useful for all game modes that would change the 5 year old playstyle. (I’m looking at you Function Gyro, you useless piece of kitten)
The problem with scrapper is that it didn’t change anything or added up anything to the Engineer’s core mechanics. You add a Res/Finisher for PVP and no extra toolbelt skill, no change in how turrets work, no change in weapon kits (not even a new weapon kit).
It is just an entirely new class with hammer and overpowered Auras for PVP.
What else do they use from engineer? Elixir Gun? Only to slow down enemies even.It was a total afterthought of an elite spec. I wished the Gyro would only keep one Aura up at a time, being it so that the function Gyro would be wherever you wanted using the [F] key targeting alies or enemies and there it would do the one activated Gyro skill until you toggled it back by the same utility you used.
Then the other Gyro skills would be actives with cooldowns that you could use when that specific aura was not active.That way you could be a zoner, like how they wanted Turrets to be. Only that this time you can move your zone of influence around freely and fight from far away if you wanted. Would be great because you could make fields with Mortar Kit anywhere and have the Gyro proc the spin finisher.
Instead of AI it should be controllable. Then we’d be good at back-lining too.
Well I had thought of a cool way to bring the function gyro mechanic into more usefulness. This may be moved, but my original hope for it was that you build up a resource per hit and hits taken kinda like an energy bar. When this bar is full it allows access to the function gyro allowing you to use it to launch at an enemy that isnt downed for high burst or perhaps if traited differently could be used to explode around you with a smaller heal and a pulse heal over time. Things like this could make the function gyro actually have use outside of stomping and rezing. Traits alone would make the playstyle per scrapper different with the ability for sustain/burst options. This added to the rezing and stomping when its fully charged will make you choose to use it for clutch moments and make you focus on more calculated use during combat.
I’ve yet to meet someone who even picks Scrapper traitline for the traits alone and not for the hammer.
My build would like a second opinion of this :P
all you gotta do is look for a flamethrower camper, theyre all over open world
I run that in the open world when I feel like flamethrowing. However, I run it with hammer as the weapon beneath the flamethrower (mostly for breakbars, but with the gear I’m running my power damage isn’t that bad either) and a gyro or two. If I wasn’t using hammer and gyros, I probably would use a third core trait – even if you camp flamethrower, Mass Momentum alone isn’t worth what you could have from Inventions or Alchemy.
The Scrapper traitline is all but mandatory for pvp/wvw – even for non-hammer builds. If you don’t take it, you’re at a huge disadvantage losing access to function gyro. It is by far the worst elite spec mechanic – useless in pve, but good at what it does in competitive game modes.
It also comes with some decent defensive traits and gives you access to sneak + purge gyros.
That’s because it was almost exclusively designed for competitive game modes. Think about it:
(edited by Vagrant.7206)
- Most gyros have single-target functions, or their functions serve extremely limited roles. This cripples their usefulness in PvE (besides sneak gyro in limited situations)
Bulwark has its uses – keeping people alive is keeping people alive, and the reflect shield can also be useful. Blast gyro… eh, Air Blast will usually do the job. Purge Gyro… I’ve rarely felt the need to bring heavy condi removal in PvE. Shredder Gyro is just terribly designed full stop.
Sneak Gyro has the issue that… well, does Detection Pulse actually do anything at all in PvE? Maybe against skelk, I guess, but most HoT enemies with stealth work by the Nuhoch mastery mechanic instead.
- Most gyros have single-target functions, or their functions serve extremely limited roles. This cripples their usefulness in PvE (besides sneak gyro in limited situations)
Bulwark has its uses – keeping people alive is keeping people alive, and the reflect shield can also be useful. Blast gyro… eh, Air Blast will usually do the job. Purge Gyro… I’ve rarely felt the need to bring heavy condi removal in PvE. Shredder Gyro is just terribly designed full stop.
Sneak Gyro has the issue that… well, does Detection Pulse actually do anything at all in PvE? Maybe against skelk, I guess, but most HoT enemies with stealth work by the Nuhoch mastery mechanic instead.
True. I sometimes forget Bulwark Gyro. It essentially functions as temporarily stronger form of protection (by 17%), but never lasts very long, and its cooldown makes it significantly weaker than protection. In PvE, the reflect shield isn’t too helpful — toss elixir u functionally does the same thing, and if you just need a quick reflect, air blast can do that.
And yeah, the detection of sneak gyro is completely worthless in PvE. Hell, its usefulness in PvP is also quite limited given its small AoE.
(edited by Vagrant.7206)
I’d say the reflect shield does have its advantages over Toss Elixir U – it’s guaranteed to be a reflect, for one, and while it has a shorter uptime, the shorter recharge and the fact that it’s centered on you makes it less likely that some of that uptime will be wasted. Of course, Toss Elixir U also has its advantages. The real choice between them is probably more based on whether you want Elixir U or the bulwark gyro more – and the bulwark gyro on its own isn’t worth taking scrapper for.
Realistically speaking, probably the main reason I’m running it even on a flamethrower camper build is that I like pulling out the hammer occasionally as a melee option. Without that element, taking a third core engineer trait probably is better even if you’re running flamethrower – you can use HGH to compensate for the lost Might stacks, and losing less from switching out of flamethrower can actually be an advantage.
The Scrapper traitline is all but mandatory for pvp/wvw – even for non-hammer builds. If you don’t take it, you’re at a huge disadvantage losing access to function gyro. It is by far the worst elite spec mechanic – useless in pve, but good at what it does in competitive game modes.
It also comes with some decent defensive traits and gives you access to sneak + purge gyros.
Coro, you’re crazy man. Gyros are by and far among the most powerful utility skills introduced in Heart of Thorns. They give stability to function as safe stomps and resses, they function as minor healing skills through Final Salvo, and they offer tons of condition cleanse, damage reduction, and projectile hate. The only thing that makes them “useless” in PvE is the fact that they do no damage — and that scrapper by extension doesn’t improve the engineer’s damage.
Beyond that point, scrapper is one of the most well-designed elite specializations. It’ll likely have usage in open world PvE, structured PvP, and both small scale and large scale WvW content for the remainder of this game’s life, long after new elite specializations are introduced to the game. Compare that, for example, to tempest or berserker, which have relatively no identity and are just “more elementalist” and “more warrior.”
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