Guild Wars 2

Orbital Strike. I love it. It’s like a smite from the heavens. But I think it can be refined.

Given the HUGE tell, delay before it impacts and cast time, it seems fair to either increase its damage or reduce the cast or delay time and keep the damage the same.

Sure it takes some finesse to place the reticle optimally while taking into consideration cast time, delay on impacts, and enemy movement. But it is all too easy for an opponent to see the tell and simply walk out of the impact zone.

You can chill them, cripple them, immobilize or other methods of CC to lock them in place to cast it, but Orbital Strike still not as a reliable skill to use as it potentially can be.

This isn’t just in small scale spvp but also in WvW. An enemy doesn’t even need to look at the ground to see the AoE among the mess of friendly and enemy AoEs as there’s a white line from the sky pointing to where it’s going to be.

Compare this to burst skills that other classes have that are quick and have a high payoff, such as near instant necro wells of suffering, spammable thief heartseekers, mesmer shatters (which are pretty OP right now) and so on.

I could go on in comparisons and someone can say to me, well that’s not engineer. You’re right. They aren’t engineer. But if engineer is to have a few really high damage burst attacks that have a reasonably high cooldown, it should be balanced out when it’s given an extremely obvious tell that it’s coming. It is a bright white line from the sky that pinpoints where it’s about to strike.

Very few classes have such an obvious tell. Necro Lich form is one, but it’s a transform that lasts a certain duration in which they can spam their hard hitting auto attacks.

So, yeah. I just think the Orbital Strike damage should be increased or the delay in initial impact greatly reduced, given that enemies currently have so much time and visual cue to prepare for it.

Your thoughts?

hmm… you know what i do?

net shot doesnt reveal, so since ive been playing hgh engi in wvw i toss S → cast orbital → net shot → nade barrage

people who arent paying attention get nearly 1 shot by it, and to top it off orbital doesnt have a red circle so they arent reflexively dodging as youre casting net shot. and its even unblockable!!

all my friends tell me orbital strike would be the reason theyd make an engi cuz a personal skyhamma is cool and stuff

but no, its not gonna work as well in pvp, cuz in pvp people pay attention and they know what to look for. so you have to force a choice instead of abusing ineptitude: orbital covers the entire point, throw it down and your opponent has to respond to it with either dodges or by giving up the point or taking it, all 3 of which are pretty disadvantageous.

wells arent instant, they occur over 5 or whatever seconds so idk the best you can really expect from a well is a single tick followed by a worthy opponent moving out of the aoe followed by him/her moving you out of the aoe. but the choice they force in pvp is similar.

a 222222 thief is a dead thief.

meh personally i dont think a double blast finisher with unblockable BoB damage needs a buff. plus the game needs more huge obvious tells, not fewer. it gives players the opportunity to respond to each other. things like getting 1 shot from stealth are boring and uneventful and dont qualify as gameplay.

yep these are my thoughts. little scattered but there you go.

In some ways I feel like this is the old Grenadier all over again, but now only on one skill instead of a whole kit. The mortar trait gives this two hits and thus double damage, so this skill is kinda lackluster when you don’t trait for it, but they can’t buff it because it would be to strong when traited. Bad trait design.

Due to it being a blast finisher you can also apply a beautiful field

Are.1326:

In some ways I feel like this is the old Grenadier all over again, but now only on one skill instead of a whole kit. The mortar trait gives this two hits and thus double damage, so this skill is kinda lackluster when you don’t trait for it, but they can’t buff it because it would be to strong when traited. Bad trait design.

Guess it is the same for the field durations, so that’s probably it.
They likely balanced the mortar kit over the traited version like they did with the grenade one back then.

IMO the cast time is a bit much for the long delay/easily seen visual. But overall I still very much like Orbital with the trait, without the trait not as much. Seems a bit counter to their idea of 3 grenades baseline. Making a skill 50% more effective with a trait was too much, but now we have 100% more effective >.< Not really complaining about that part as much as just feeling it’s a little silly.

I really like the ability, and I don’t think it needs a buff. I trait my mortar kit in my build, and the double orbital strike when you pull it off feels nice. Maybe boost its damage if anything, but I like the slow tell and big hits. You have to set it up usually with an immobilize or knockback, but its nice.

Should probably hit as hard as elementalist pheonix to feel good (when you trait for double effect). Overall though, its a fun ability that usually helps me control mid fights a bit more.

Zerker crit to warrior with it is up to 4k… Traited 8.
I’m OK with it totally. I even feel like there would be some qq even with that kind of damage

Are.1326:

In some ways I feel like this is the old Grenadier all over again, but now only on one skill instead of a whole kit. The mortar trait gives this two hits and thus double damage, so this skill is kinda lackluster when you don’t trait for it, but they can’t buff it because it would be to strong when traited. Bad trait design.

I love this trait design due to the utility and flexibility, double blast finisher on any field I choose or any good field my teammates plop down is just awesome. You do know you get the effect 2 times right of off 1 field right ?

Tongku.5326:

I love this trait design due to the utility and flexibility, double blast finisher on any field I choose or any good field my teammates plop down is just awesome. You do know you get the effect 2 times right of off 1 field right ?

I’m not saying the trait is weak, in fact, my point is that it is to good when traited compeared to the untraited version. Bad design does note equal bad efficiency. The trait is poorly designed because the power gap between the traited and untraited versions are to large. Remember Grenadier before the spec patch? Nobody ran grenades without it, because an additional grenade meant 50% more of everything.

Are.1326:

Tongku.5326:

I love this trait design due to the utility and flexibility, double blast finisher on any field I choose or any good field my teammates plop down is just awesome. You do know you get the effect 2 times right of off 1 field right ?

I’m not saying the trait is weak, in fact, my point is that it is to good when traited compeared to the untraited version. Bad design does note equal bad efficiency. The trait is poorly designed because the power gap between the traited and untraited versions are to large. Remember Grenadier before the spec patch? Nobody ran grenades without it, because an additional grenade meant 50% more of everything.

It is a master trait so I disagree that it should not be this powerful. Mortar by itself is actually really weak and sucks even when traited except mortar skill 3 in WvW, the water field is also a weak one, not like elementalists, the double blast from orbital strike on the mortar 5 field is roughly equal to a single ele field + single blast in overall healing, hence is actually well balanced, I play ele too so experience this 1st hand. So the double tap orbital strike is what makes it decent. if they nerf orbital strike then something needs to be done to base mortar to compensate.

Tongku.5326:

It is a master trait so I disagree that it should not be this powerful. Mortar by itself is actually really weak and sucks even when traited except mortar skill 3 in WvW, the water field is also a weak one, not like elementalists, the double blast from orbital strike on the mortar 5 field is roughly equal to a single ele field + single blast in overall healing, hence is actually well balanced, I play ele too so experience this 1st hand. So the double tap orbital strike is what makes it decent. if they nerf orbital strike then something needs to be done to base mortar to compensate.

I never said they should nerf anything, I’m just saying that to much of mortars power requiers a trait. You should not have to take a trait for something to be decent.

If I had it my way, the double hit would be baseline and the trait would increase the durration of all fields by 2 sec. That way the trait makes a choice of condi & control from shrapnel, more support from field durration, or more blasts from Thermobaric Detonation. This also makes the trait viable in non-mortar builds that wants to take use of fields (healing turret for example).

And a well designed trait gives choice you make yourself, and that requiers alternatives at the same power level.

Also it is a grandmaster, not a master, and that means nothing anymore considering how the new system works.

It crits nearly 10k damage on its own… why would you need to INCREASE that damage considering all the immobilise we can throw out (this is not even taking into account the 3 extra damage traits and sigils).

Are.1326:

If I had it my way, the double hit would be baseline and the trait would increase the durration of all fields by 2 sec. That way the trait makes a choice of condi & control from shrapnel, more support from field durration, or more blasts from Thermobaric Detonation. This also makes the trait viable in non-mortar builds that wants to take use of fields (healing turret for example).

if your proposal was a thing, power builds would take shrapnel for the perma cripple. the mortar trait would go unused, because neither power nor condi builds take mortar and its trait for the field duration increase. hmm how do i put this. i personally take mortar for 3 things: range, orbital, and blind. i dont take the mortar trait for the duration increase, i take it cuz it makes f5 into a button that is really worth pushing. if you make f5 really worth pushing as a baseline, i would no longer see the purpose in the trait, and shrapnel would offer both more utility and damage to a power build, and shrapnel is quite clearly a condi trait. when a power build wants to take a condi trait because there are no better options, the choice is flawed (and vice versa — which is true of adept and master explosives).

so maybe the problem is that without orbital and a boost to orbital, mortar and siege rounds arent worth it. if orbital wasnt worth using, i would prolly still take mortar for the blind field, but flash shell would be the entire extent of my use for the kit, and if orbital was worth using regardless of siege rounds then field duration is not a commanding choice.

i think the main issue is that 2-4 dont offer enough damage to be worth using instead of an auto in a power build (im gonna ignore condi builds because pushing any of mortar 1, 2, or 3 in a condi build is a huge mistake and thats a major flaw with the kit imo). and maybe this is a purely pve issue, because in pve and wvw i definitely want the fields for their utility in addition to the autoattack level damage. but in pve, the poison is pathetic, and the chill is too short to matter against the enemies i would want to use it on, and all 3 fields have the huge downside of being garbage for blasting compared to fire (and this is such a huge issue that i cant stress it enough — i will purposely not use 2-4 against bosses especially. 4 is extremely good against trash, but trash encounters are short and neither poison nor chill matter, and the rest of what 2 and 3 offer — the fields and damage — is detrimental and meh respectively).

i think my suggestion to improve mortar has to be to buff the damage on 2 and 3 (4 is fine) to something more in line with the power damage of nades 2/4/5. and from a condi perspective: buff the poison damage because it sucks, and make all 2/3/4 field ticks proc things explosives proc (shrapnel, steel-packed). change the projectile finisher to proc throughout the aoe instead of what the projectile touches.

i dont think double orbital strike necessarily needs to be baseline.

i think thermobaric detonation and dodge bomb need to lose the icd.

You have a few options. You could bait dodges with other, lower damage skills… count the dodges, and when they’re out of endurance, roll up your sleeves, cast OS, and hope for the best.

Or you could cast OS on top of you, let them walk out of it or think they’re home free, and use magnet to pull them to you…

… oh, wait. Never mind, my bad. Magnet is broken as kitten right now, lol.

orbital strike needs a 20% damage increase and/or be made so that each orbital strike landed had a 2s daze or knock

the reason orbital strike feels powerful is because of the double strike trait but without it its barely a threat and even Traited it is outdamaged by Rocket Turret’s Toolbelt skill

also i believe orbital strike was meant to replace mortar kit’s old number 5 skill so i think it should at Least Daze enemies as mortar lost the best crowd interrupt in the game pretty much (5 projectiles with each having 5 target aoe knock back and dealt 3k damage each)

I don’t mind the concept of the orbital strike skill, I just wish Anet would have chosen a different presentation for it. It would have been more exciting to see a red smoke grenade go off and hear shells raining in to bomb the area, like using the PvE mortars from the Charr. The laser beam and little “bzzzt” sound it makes is just not that exciting.

Sigh.

I really think Mortar Kit may be the most underrated skill we’ve ever gotten, and I really think it’s arguably one of the best elite skills in the game for what it all offers. Every time I see these threads I just shake my head. Am I overzealous in how good this thing really is, or are people just not seeing what I see?

Orbital Strike is an unblockable skill. Traditionally, unblockable skills are more utility than damage, and for that reason very few of them actually come close to the output OS provides. I am not sure how well maintained this page is, but here’s a list so you see what I mean. Engineer actually has the lion’s share of high damage unblockable skills like Throw Mine, Big Ol’ Bomb, and Acid Bomb. And you have to acknowledge that as far as damage is concerned, Orbital Strike is well in league with all of these skills.

Hell, just look how it compares to other skills we have. In a Soldier amulet, it double-taps for a total of 2582 damage. For perspective, that’s more direct damage than Pry Bar, Blunderbuss, Shrapnel Grenade, Freeze Grenade, Poison Grenade, and Throw Wrench. It’s even more damage than Big Ol’ Bomb, which has a much larger telegraph, a much larger delay, and only one blast finisher. And you want it buffed?

I mean seriously. This is not even considering what else the kit has at its disposal: a water field that passively heals over 2.5K HP with zero healing power, a blind field that pulses blind seven times over six seconds, a poison field that has over 66% upkeep from 1500 range, and an ice field to hold them in all that stuff as needed.

That last point in particular has always been mocked. I don’t know if it’s because people are completely clueless about how powerful certain combo fields are in this game or just generally don’t understand how this whole thing works, but blasting an ice field gives you Frost Aura, which reduces all damage taken by 10%. It’s not a boon, so it can’t be stripped. And since it’s different from protection, it also stacks on top of Protection Injection. Best of all, similar to most blast finishers, it’s an area effect.

People have been discrediting this kit every since its introduction, and I seriously don’t get it. Orbital Strike is an incredible tool belt skill and complements anything you can think of. The kit has so many good fields for any given situation. I like the Marauder build with Elixir X, and the FT/TK condi build is a lot of fun with Supply Crate, but I think the Soldier build with Mortar Kit is our most cohesive, wholesome build. It’s not reliant on RNG like Elixir X is and it doesn’t rely on bad team play like conditions do.

It just works. And a lot of that is due to the Mortar Kit.

Jerus.4350:

IMO the cast time is a bit much for the long delay/easily seen visual. But overall I still very much like Orbital with the trait, without the trait not as much. Seems a bit counter to their idea of 3 grenades baseline. Making a skill 50% more effective with a trait was too much, but now we have 100% more effective >.< Not really complaining about that part as much as just feeling it’s a little silly.

I agree.
Don’t understand why it would have such a long cast time AND such a long delay/obvious tell.

This is grenadier all over again, with a nerf on the grenade kit and an elite slot to spend instead.
Any advantage that got listed mainly has to do with the bonuses given by the grandmaster trait. Orbital Strike is just a mediocre skill without the second tap (since it has been balanced over that second tap). And the field durations have likely been balanced over that 50% increase. Like the old grenade skills were balanced over the addition of that third grenade (again, a 50% increase).
And those are just the issues related to the trait, anyway.
The kit itself is just a bunch of fields that can’t do much by themselves and are easily avoided – be it because of the traveling time at longer ranges (ironically, the one advantage that kit should offer) or because people can just move out and avoid most of their effects, even if shooted at close range. Sure, blasting some of them can give useful effects…but apart from the frost aura and an easier water field to blast, there is nothing new. And it isn’t like we’ve got infinite blasts, anyway – using them for those fields just means we won’t use them for other purposes (like stacking might).
At least the other elites work just by themselves, they don’t need outside sources to get some sensible effect.
If anything, i would say it is even overrated.
If it weren’t for the rng involved with Elixir X or the terrible survivability of turrets that plagues Supply Crate, no one should even bother using it.

Manuhell.2759:

This is grenadier all over again, with a nerf on the grenade kit and an elite slot to spend instead.
Any advantage that got listed mainly has to do with the bonuses given by the grandmaster trait. Orbital Strike is just a mediocre skill without the second tap (since it has been balanced over that second tap). And the field durations have likely been balanced over that 50% increase. Like the old grenade skills were balanced over the addition of that third grenade (again, a 50% increase).
And those are just the issues related to the trait, anyway.
The kit itself is just a bunch of fields that can’t do much by themselves and are easily avoided – be it because of the traveling time at longer ranges (ironically, the one advantage that kit should offer) or because people can just move out and avoid most of their effects, even if shooted at close range. Sure, blasting some of them can give useful effects…but apart from the frost aura and an easier water field to blast, there is nothing new. And it isn’t like we’ve got infinite blasts, anyway – using them for those fields just means we won’t use them for other purposes (like stacking might).
At least the other elites work just by themselves, they don’t need outside sources to get some sensible effect.
If anything, i would say it is even overrated.
If it weren’t for the rng involved with Elixir X or the terrible survivability of turrets that plagues Supply Crate, no one should even bother using it.

I like the kit, A LOT, the trait is just kind of stupid.

Manuhell.2759:

This is grenadier all over again, with a nerf on the grenade kit and an elite slot to spend instead.
Any advantage that got listed mainly has to do with the bonuses given by the grandmaster trait. Orbital Strike is just a mediocre skill without the second tap (since it has been balanced over that second tap). And the field durations have likely been balanced over that 50% increase. Like the old grenade skills were balanced over the addition of that third grenade (again, a 50% increase).
And those are just the issues related to the trait, anyway.
The kit itself is just a bunch of fields that can’t do much by themselves and are easily avoided – be it because of the traveling time at longer ranges (ironically, the one advantage that kit should offer) or because people can just move out and avoid most of their effects, even if shooted at close range. Sure, blasting some of them can give useful effects…but apart from the frost aura and an easier water field to blast, there is nothing new. And it isn’t like we’ve got infinite blasts, anyway – using them for those fields just means we won’t use them for other purposes (like stacking might).
At least the other elites work just by themselves, they don’t need outside sources to get some sensible effect.
If anything, i would say it is even overrated.
If it weren’t for the rng involved with Elixir X or the terrible survivability of turrets that plagues Supply Crate, no one should even bother using it.

its a similar situation to be sure, but i dont think its anywhere near as egregious as grenadier was. grenadier literally made the kit worth using and without grenadier all of the skills shouldnt have been used at all. the thing is, whether you trait mortar or not, the skills are only worth using if the fields dont impede your play. only the blind is strong enough to truly overcome that issue everywhere. short poison and ok chill are definitely good enough in pvp situations, where blasting might is a secondary or tertiary goal, but they fall a little short in pve. and as for orbital, its still functional without traiting because it still provides a shortish cd blast in the elite slot, and thats commanding enough to use it. because you can still easily get 4 blasts without traiting and thats more than enough for engi to “be versatile” with field access and blasting utility (“enough” imo is 3, because it was enough for me to feel good about doing that stuff before 6/23).

Manuhell.2759:

Orbital Strike is just a mediocre skill without the second tap (since it has been balanced over that second tap). And the field durations have likely been balanced over that 50% increase.

ITT: Skills are balanced around their traits.

Who knew?

Phineas Poe.3018:

ITT: Skills are balanced around their traits.

Who knew?

Yeah, it isn’t like traits are supposed to make utilities and weapons better, right?
Let’s just put some trait and nerf the base weapons and utilities, what’s the problem.
After all, it isn’t like they reworked Grenadier because it had that same issue.

Oh wait, they did. And then put an even worse version as Siege Rounds.

But what do i know,after all everyone knows that the Flamethrower is balanced over having stability all the time.

Are.1326:

Tongku.5326:

I love this trait design due to the utility and flexibility, double blast finisher on any field I choose or any good field my teammates plop down is just awesome. You do know you get the effect 2 times right of off 1 field right ?

I’m not saying the trait is weak, in fact, my point is that it is to good when traited compeared to the untraited version. Bad design does note equal bad efficiency. The trait is poorly designed because the power gap between the traited and untraited versions are to large. Remember Grenadier before the spec patch? Nobody ran grenades without it, because an additional grenade meant 50% more of everything.

Yeah that about sums it up for me tbh… I mean a 40sec cd with a long cast time and a HUGE telegraph for such small damage is rubbish imo. It just isn’t worth the button push usually for me, I’ve always got a better option. Unfortunately this ability is lacklustre because the Trait would make it too good if they buffed it so that it actually did something untraited.

It has absolutely no place in a condi build, and even in Celestial it does like 800 damage non crit, it’s aweful.

…and I don’t see how anyone can argue that it’s OK to balance this around a Trait. It’s an Elite skill. To render a significant part of an Elite skill useless unless traited is bad design.

(PVP)

Manuhell.2759:

But what do i know,after all everyone knows that the Flamethrower is balanced over having stability all the time.

Well, yes. I think Flame Jet is naturally a weaker auto-attack to what the Bomb Kit and Grenade Kit have precisely because of its defensive options on paper. How else could you view it otherwise?

The brunt of your criticism toward the Mortar Kit seems to stem from the fact that it’s mediocre untraited. Isn’t this the case for most everything that we have? Without Steel Packed Powder, the Grenade Kit is pretty mediocre in PvE. Without Chemical Rounds and Incendiary Powder, condition builds are pretty mediocre in PvP.

It makes sense as a guardian if you’re going to run a shout build to run the proper traits and rune set. If you’re going to run with Rampage on a warrior it’s pretty critical that you have Peak Performance.

You really can’t cut corners with your traits and think you’re going to be making the most of a utility or elite skill.

loads of the toolbelt skills rock without traits. i would take any of them over an untraited OS. X gives moa and a chance at rampage, so it’s superior for power and cele imo. mortar is only good for condi cause you can use the auto with a fire field to stack burns, but you have to hit the person with the projectile because it’s bugged (or it’s just a bad skill). you can’t even combo the light field for self condi cleanse. mortar is a flawed skill, and not a very good one imo.

sure OS does good damage traited, but it has a huge telegraph and a 40sec cd. untraited it’s not that good at all.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Manuhell.2759:

But what do i know,after all everyone knows that the Flamethrower is balanced over having stability all the time.

Well, yes. I think Flame Jet is naturally a weaker auto-attack to what the Bomb Kit and Grenade Kit have precisely because of its defensive options on paper. How else could you view it otherwise?

I wasn’t talking about the defensive options given by the kit – that, by the way, aren’t changed by any of the available traits. I was esplicitely talking about stability, since there is a trait that gives it while using the flamethrower.
Since you keep saying that anything is balanced over their traits, tell me, is the flamethrower balanced over having stability all the time?

Phineas Poe.3018:

The brunt of your criticism toward the Mortar Kit seems to stem from the fact that it’s mediocre untraited. Isn’t this the case for most everything that we have? Without Steel Packed Powder, the Grenade Kit is pretty mediocre in PvE. Without Chemical Rounds and Incendiary Powder, condition builds are pretty mediocre in PvP.

It makes sense as a guardian if you’re going to run a shout build to run the proper traits and rune set. If you’re going to run with Rampage on a warrior it’s pretty critical that you have Peak Performance.

Some of those traits didn’t even exist until the specialization update, or at least not in their current forms. In some cases skills didn’t change either, or were changed due to other mechanics involved (burning/poison stacking).

But would you say that warrior shouts are balanced toward healing allies and curing conditions, just because a trait and some runes can make you so?
Even better, what about bombs? There is now a trait to decrease their delay. Have they been rebalanced over having such possibility?
According to you, it should make sense for them to do so. Even if it would make the addition of that trait pointless to begin with.
Same for the juggernaut trait mentioned above. One that was changed quite some times during the years.
They are supposed to be added bonuses, not mandatory ones.

You really can’t cut corners with your traits and think you’re going to be making the most of a utility or elite skill.

Sure, but what should be the outcome of that “making the most”?
Having a good skill or just an average one?
Cause balancing skills over their traited versions just means they’ll be barely good when traited and terrible when untraited. That’s exactly what plagued the grenade kit, and further emphatized by the terrible idea of putting a grandmaster trait that worked on a single utility (thus having to give really strong effects to make it worth the cost).
And it ends up being the same with the mortar kit, too.

Ironically, a skill would end up more useful by having less or no strong traits available, if any, since it means that it was never balanced over those traits to begin with.

Having the possibility of using traits should make the skills affected better, not worse.
Making a grandmaster trait that works on a single utility is nonsensical to begin with. Being a grandmaster forces it to have a strong effect, and working on a single utility makes it even more so (and i should add, that’s why other classes usually have grandmaster traits that work on whole categories…it makes it so that those bonuses can be spread over various utilities, instead of focused into one). And that’s without considering any other trait involved, something that further exacerbates the issue.
That’s likely to make them overpowered, but if there are such balancing issues because skills are made too strong by traits, then the issue is with the traits themselves, not with the skills.
Rebalance them, and if they end up not being strong enough for a grandmaster…just avoid to make them grandmaster tier to begin with.

I’ve been enjoying orbital strike, in PVP I mostly use it on point to limit the opponents movement. I’ve dropped it on myself to get some breathing room from mele folks. You can leave it over someone who is downed / being rezzed.

I often drop it behind my opponents line of retreat so they don’t see the big line in the air, then I can Overcharged shot them and net shot. Or I can lob some mortars in front of them and have them take a doge roll back and end up in it.

Finally on one’s self you can not only buy a bit of breathing room, but you can blast your water fields etc. In general I now much prefer mortar too supply kit.

Manuhell.2759:

I wasn’t talking about the defensive options given by the kit – that, by the way, aren’t changed by any of the available traits. I was esplicitely talking about stability, since there is a trait that gives it while using the flamethrower.
Since you keep saying that anything is balanced over their traits, tell me, is the flamethrower balanced over having stability all the time?

I would say so, yes. They clearly want the flamethrower to be a more defensive kit than an offensive one, which is why Flame Jet hits like a wet noodle compared to more offensive-oriented kits like Bomb Kit and Grenade Kit. And while it may not do as much damage as the Tool Kit’s wrench combo, the wrench chain is single-target melee while Flame Jet is conical AoE. I think our kits are a lot more balanced than players really give credit; the issue is just that there’s very little reason to ever spec into stability for the flamethrower, and is currently more favored in burn builds due to Incendiary Ammo.

Manuhell.2759:

But would you say that warrior shouts are balanced toward healing allies and curing conditions, just because a trait and some runes can make you so?
Even better, what about bombs? There is now a trait to decrease their delay. Have they been rebalanced over having such possibility?
According to you, it should make sense for them to do so. Even if it would make the addition of that trait pointless to begin with.
Same for the juggernaut trait mentioned above. One that was changed quite some times during the years.
They are supposed to be added bonuses, not mandatory ones.

Juggernaut has changed a lot over the years, but it really kind of hasn’t at the same time. It first had permanent stability at a movement cost, and then passive toughness with might stacks, and now permanent stability once again with might stacks. So while it has changed a lot, all changes consisted primarily of defensive gains. 7-9 stacks of might camping the flamethrower has always been a net DPS loss due to how weak Flame Jet is, and even as far back as the original FT/EG days, the flamethrower has always been a bunker kit; I mean, let’s be real: its only real damage trait, Deadly Mixture, used to be a master tier Alchemy trait. And while the FT/EG saw a lot of use in both PvE and PvP even after Juggernaut was nerfed, it was primarily due to defensive gains through Kit Refinement with double condi cleanse.

You’re asking me why they make the decisions they do, and I just can’t answer that. I don’t work for ArenaNet, but I have been playing the engineer for a very long time and have written a lot of guides for it, and I think I have a fairly grounded perspective on the state of our profession and its respective kits.

It only makes sense that utility skills are balanced around what is out there, as what options are available dictate the versatility of the meta. I think ArenaNet knew perfectly what they were doing when they put Rune of the Soldier into the game, and I think they knew most warriors and guardians would use it in PvP and WvW and balanced utility skills accordingly. After all, I don’t think shoutbow’s nerf occurred in a vacuum; I imagine they looked at everything on the table and realized that the warhorn’s condition conversion on top of shouts was a bit over the top and made the change.

I don’t really know what else to say about all of this. I think the Mortar Kit when traited is the best elite we have. I actually stand a chance 1v1ing elementalists with it between the blind field and extra sustain from Elixir Shell and Frost Aura. Untraited I still think it’s satisfactory, though if you’re traited into Alchemy and Tools and not Explosives, Elixir X will obviously be a lot stronger.

But I understand this thread isn’t about the entire kit but just its tool belt.

Manuhell.2759:

I wasn’t talking about the defensive options given by the kit – that, by the way, aren’t changed by any of the available traits. I was esplicitely talking about stability, since there is a trait that gives it while using the flamethrower.
Since you keep saying that anything is balanced over their traits, tell me, is the flamethrower balanced over having stability all the time?

well yes, i dont think there is a purpose to ft1 being bad except that juggernaut as a trait makes you want to camp ft as much as possible, and if the 1 was good while camping ft as much as possible then your play experience would not be diverse at all because all you would do is run around spamming 1 and hitting (120k on bosses instead of) 60k on bosses. its a big number but you dont even have to like… play.

I picked Juggernaut on purpose. Because it had all those changes over two years.
It started giving stability and toughness along with a penalty on movement, it ended up giving might and toughness for a long time and now it gives stability and might.

And yet you people are saying that the flamethrower is supposed to be balanced over having some might that wasn’t even initially given by such trait, some toughness that it isn’t even given anymore, and some stability that wasn’t even given for an interval of two years. While being mostly unchanged since the release of the game – it received some buffs of offensive nature and a QoL feature on flame blast, at most. And those were given during the timeframe when juggernaut already gave might stacks, by the way – so it means they deemed necessary to make the kit better despite the trait.

Manuhell.2759:

I picked Juggernaut on purpose. Because it had all those changes over two years.
It started giving stability and toughness along with a penalty on movement, it ended up giving might and toughness for a long time and now it gives stability and might.

And yet you people are saying that the flamethrower is supposed to be balanced over having some might that wasn’t even initially given by such trait, some toughness that it isn’t even given anymore, and some stability that wasn’t even given for an interval of two years. While being mostly unchanged since the release of the game – it received some buffs of offensive nature and a QoL feature on flame blast, at most. And those were given during the timeframe when juggernaut already gave might stacks, by the way – so it means they deemed necessary to make the kit better despite the trait.

juggernaut has always had the purpose of making you a lot more defensive. perma old stab with a 0 sec delay was completely ridiculously overpowered as long as any button you could possibly push while using the kit did anything at all ever, and anet didnt conceive of anything reasonable for it in the timeframe between figuring that out and reacting to it, so they overnerfed it and left it for later. times have since changed and 1 stack of refreshing stab is pretty good but not kittening op. so meh. even if the trait has seen change after change after change, its core purpose hasnt exactly changed. and the ability to have strong defense while putting out good dps needs to have a huge opportunity cost, which ft1 being double the current dps or whatever would not have. you would be able to sit in ft afk and not even get cc’ed. thats stupid.

idk why youre being so combative. “ha i cornered you!” isnt a very good discussion.

Because i keep seeing people saying that our skills are balanced and have to be balanced over their optional traits.
And that just can’t be true for some of them – like flamethrower and juggernaut, or bombs and elixir-infused bombs (since they just deleted it, and it isn’t like bombs have had any change in that regard).

Skills shouldn’t be balanced over their optional traits – it just forces people to get them.
There is a difference between improving a skill and making such traits essentially mandatory. When a trait is made too strong, it ends up in the latter case. Making grandmaster traits that work on single utilities further increases the risk of them giving effects far too strong. With the side-effect of being forced to balance the utility/kit taking for granted that trait. And making the base one awful.
And that’s why they changed grenadier in the first place.

And what they do then? An even worse version with the mortar.

It makes no sense. No other class is balanced like that. It isn’t like warrior shouts have an hp cost just because you can recover health by using a trait. So why should some skills be made extremely weaker on purpose just because of some trait that doubles their damage? Because the skill would end up too strong? That’s an issue with the trait, not the base skill.

i actually think siege rounds is fine. i dont feel bad about not taking it in a condi build because the only damage it improves is power damage, and yet mortar is still my default choice for elite skill because the fields offer blinds and chills that are extremely important for control.

i wouldnt run without siege rounds on a power build, but thats more an issue that 1) dodge bomb blasts suck with an icd and 2) a pve build without explosives is shooting yourself in the foot / i hate sd type pvp builds for their lack of mobility and generally poor survivability. so yes siege rounds is the only viable power option for that trait choice and it ties you into wanting to take mortar (and most likely doing so cuz why pass up a 2x blast when other elites dont even do anything useful), but seriously… mortar is fine without the trait.

id actually say its a lot like juggernaut in its power level. both feel optional to me after having played both with and without them. its just that the things each trait competes with differ wildly in power level. there isnt really a reason to take juggernaut unless you need stab because IP and mod ammo are worthy traits. there isnt really a reason to change away from siege rounds in a power build because the other 2 are meh and there isnt a reason to switch to it in a condi build because shrapnel is that good and mortar has approximately 0 condi damage. so yeah it looks similar to grenadier but i think the reason i always take it is different and that its not the real problem with that part of explosives.

Manuhell.2759:

Because i keep seeing people saying that our skills are balanced and have to be balanced over their optional traits.

And that just can’t be true for some of them – like flamethrower and juggernaut, or bombs and elixir-infused bombs (since they just deleted it, and it isn’t like bombs have had any change in that regard).

If you really want to drive home a point that is going to sell, you may want to use examples of traits that have been recognized as top-tier, build-defining choices.

Elixir Infused Bombs was a fairly awful trait in a fairly underwhelming defensive trait line on the whole. I think Stimulant Supplier is a thousand times better as you can stack up packs on the ground to spike heal yourself in one go with 4-5 packs as needed vs a paltry one-at-a-time heal that was easily mitigated just with burning damage or a few bleed stacks.

Elixir Infused Bombs was deleted because it wasn’t popular, and bombs haven’t changed at all post-patch in its absence (minus an unrelated radius bug or two) because the kit doesn’t need any adjustments.

Manuhell.2759:

Skills shouldn’t be balanced over their optional traits – it just forces people to get them. There is a difference between improving a skill and making such traits essentially mandatory. When a trait is made too strong, it ends up in the latter case. Making grandmaster traits that work on single utilities further increases the risk of them giving effects far too strong. With the side-effect of being forced to balance the utility/kit taking for granted that trait. And making the base one awful.
And that’s why they changed grenadier in the first place.

And what they do then? An even worse version with the mortar.

It makes no sense. No other class is balanced like that. It isn’t like warrior shouts have an hp cost just because you can recover health by using a trait. So why should some skills be made extremely weaker on purpose just because of some trait that doubles their damage? Because the skill would end up too strong? That’s an issue with the trait, not the base skill.

Dude, I really don’t know what to tell you. You talk about shouts but warrior is full of “must have” traits.

The class would literally be garbage tier without Berserker’s Power and Phalanx Strength in PvE, and without Peak Performance Rampage would still be riding the pine to Battle Standard in every PvP build under the sun.