Guild Wars 2

It has really been bothering me recently that my main hand has zero affect on my person when I am in a kit. If the main hand has Vitality, I loose health when switching to a kit for example. While using grenade I rarely ever switch back to my rifle (when PvEing) and I would just unequip it if the precision stacks didn’t carry over once built up.

Main question is, Why? Why does switching to any kit remove your weapons stats from your person? Elementalists don’t loose their stats when switching to different attunements so why do we?

elementalist are actualy still visualy holding their weapons when they change attunements. if you use a kit, you dont.
im not sure if this is intended or a bug but if its intended, than i’d realy like to know why.

afaik they haven’t commented on this, although you’ll find it included on pretty much every player created engineer bug list.

It definitely leads to some weird combat situations. For instance I will drop an equipped kit so I can be holding my rifle before I use a tool belt skill. Very illogical when you consider that some tool belt skills receiving the rifle bonus from that swap come directly from weapon kits.

Its intended and its obvious why.

Kits are bundles.

Want to prove it?

Go to some PvE area, pick up a spade.
Did you lose stats? Yes. Now try jumping and dropping the spade.
Does it work? Nope. Ok good so far, now try using an ‘on swap’ sigil, and pick up that same spade.
Did it trigger? Nahhh. One more thing, set that spade first skill to auto attack. And then drop it. Now pick it up…
Did it keep the auto attack on? Nope.

See all these flaws? This is what kits are. Kits are by all intents and purposes, environmental weapons like a spade. Kits aren’t weapons, they are ‘bundles’.

That’s the problem. It has existed since BWE1, and there is no easy way to fix it.

Lyuben, then probably not Intended just a hard bug.

Its very much intended, insofar as it is intended behavior as a bundle.

The trouble is, Arenanet want to have their cake and eat it too. They want kits to have nice things like auto attack, sigils stats and so on… but they don’t seem to be changing them from bundles. So, while they are bundles its working as intended.

Kits are treatet as Weapons and thats exactly our problem since our kits dont have stats.
same goes for transforming (rampager, necro, bearform, etc) elite skills.
weapon is removed and the stats are gone. except elite skilly usualy get power and health buffs (necro and rampager form for example.). Lyubens example is pretty much the same thing. pickup a Spade, rock, whatever, and your current weapon is also gone.

Just take a warrior and give him a weapon without stats. if he switches to it, he gets all attacks (if he unlocked them ofc) but no stats since they dont have any.

while it makes sense, its pretty annoying for us. my rifle or pistol is probably somwhere on my back so ther is no point of remove the stats. especialy since we just have 1 weapon. on the other hand, Warriors and other classes then might argue the same thing. their weapon is also somewhere on them so why remove the stats?

best solution would probably be to just give Kits in general a 2.5-5% boost to all stats which would compensate enough for our lost weapon

I don’t think this is intended.
We have no real reason to have conditions on our weapons other than if using pistol skills 2, 3 and 4.
Our main condition damage comes through kits.

That places us at a huge disadvantage over other classes.

They might sort this out when kits get auto attack toggle, its really crappy for now though.

As someone already said, I suspect they fear balancing issues, and may need to seriously nerf the kits themselves. I am not 80 yet, so I don’t know how crippled the current situation really is.

As far as a credible nontechnical ‘explanation’ goes, why wouldn’t kits ‘fit on’ your weapons (e.g. grenades+rifle = grenade launcher) and hence receive their stats as well?

(and wouldn’ kitten then be even cooler if the kit’s skills would actually mesh and depend on your weapons skills? Guess it’s a bit late in the game for that, and I also guess we are supposed to have enough customizability already as well)

tjeb.6503:

As someone already said, I suspect they fear balancing issues, and may need to seriously nerf the kits themselves. I am not 80 yet, so I don’t know how crippled the current situation really is.

As far as a credible nontechnical ‘explanation’ goes, why wouldn’t kits ‘fit on’ your weapons (e.g. grenades+rifle = grenade launcher) and hence receive their stats as well?

(and wouldn kitten then be even cooler if the kit’s skills would actually mesh and depend on your weapons skills? Guess it’s a bit late in the game for that, and I also guess we are supposed to have enough customizability already as well)

I suspect lack of skill to fix it,and lack of time to do so.

They promised to fix these, but the trouble is that they haven’t… kits are bundles and not weapons. That’s the problem.

Lyuben.2613:

tjeb.6503:

As someone already said, I suspect they fear balancing issues, and may need to seriously nerf the kits themselves. I am not 80 yet, so I don’t know how crippled the current situation really is.

As far as a credible nontechnical ‘explanation’ goes, why wouldn’t kits ‘fit on’ your weapons (e.g. grenades+rifle = grenade launcher) and hence receive their stats as well?

(and wouldn kitten then be even cooler if the kit’s skills would actually mesh and depend on your weapons skills? Guess it’s a bit late in the game for that, and I also guess we are supposed to have enough customizability already as well)

I suspect lack of skill to fix it,and lack of time to do so.

They promised to fix these, but the trouble is that they haven’t… kits are bundles and not weapons. That’s the problem.

To be fair, Arenanet has a lot on their plate. They have a list and are starting projects in order of the list, problem is we don’t know the list and the start time for a problem doesn’t guarantee any kind of end time for a fix. I also believe they are prioritizing playability of the game itself (IE: stopping hackers and botters, fixing exploits, debugging and deglitching the game) over balance issues and class-specific problems which makes sense any way you look at it. The Kits are Bundles and are therefore working as intended. The fact that the intended method is weaker than they expected is a balance issue and not a playability issue. They’ll get to it when they can, but I feel that they rightly have other issues higher on the list than this one.

Overall it can’t be entirely intended because in PVP none of the stats are weapon based, only sigils. That makes Engineers statistically stronger in PvP then PvE through a hard stat increase when using kits.

I can kinda understand why our kits don’t have the mainhand stats since our kits are basically our second (and possibly third or more) weapon set…. but at the same time, they have no stats. It would be interesting if wearing kits also boosted a stat by a certain percentage… So like, the grenade kit would be +10% to precision or something like that.

Lyuben.2613:

Its very much intended, insofar as it is intended behavior as a bundle.

The trouble is, Arenanet want to have their cake and eat it too. They want kits to have nice things like auto attack, sigils stats and so on… but they don’t seem to be changing them from bundles. So, while they are bundles its working as intended.

I’m sorry but even if we were to go along with your flawed logic bundles not having auto attack enabled by default is not intended.

JsusHdRvive.5829:

Lyuben.2613:

Its very much intended, insofar as it is intended behavior as a bundle.

The trouble is, Arenanet want to have their cake and eat it too. They want kits to have nice things like auto attack, sigils stats and so on… but they don’t seem to be changing them from bundles. So, while they are bundles its working as intended.

I’m sorry but even if we were to go along with your flawed logic bundles not having auto attack enabled by default is not intended.

Then try it on any bundle…

Pick one up, drop it and see if it is remembered.

I’m guessing its there to stop it so if you accidentally set auto attack on a boulder for example, that the next time you pick one up, you immediately throw it.

You can easily test it.

Furthermore, if you are doubting that kits are bundles. Then go to a high spot, in LA for example, equikittent and try toggling the kit off while falling. See what message you get.

Lyuben.2613:

JsusHdRvive.5829:

Lyuben.2613:

Its very much intended, insofar as it is intended behavior as a bundle.

The trouble is, Arenanet want to have their cake and eat it too. They want kits to have nice things like auto attack, sigils stats and so on… but they don’t seem to be changing them from bundles. So, while they are bundles its working as intended.

I’m sorry but even if we were to go along with your flawed logic bundles not having auto attack enabled by default is not intended.

Then try it on any bundle…

Pick one up, drop it and see if it is remembered.

I’m guessing its there to stop it so if you accidentally set auto attack on a boulder for example, that the next time you pick one up, you immediately throw it.

You can easily test it.

Furthermore, if you are doubting that kits are bundles. Then go to a high spot, in LA for example, equikittent and try toggling the kit off while falling. See what message you get.

No one is doubting kits are bundles currently, but with the sheer armount of bundles out there where #1 is an auto attack type skill combined with the fact that they intentionally made engineer kits bundles it’s obvious that they didn’t intend bundles to forget your auto attack preference.

Lyuben.2613:

That’s the problem. It has existed since BWE1, and there is no easy way to fix it.

Really? It’s ridiculously easy. Make bundles keep your stats from your main weapon. It doesn’t break any other class that picks up a stick, and it will bring Engineers where they want to be.

I wonder if they ever considered having kits work like elemental attunements. it seems like the same thing mechanic wise.

@AlietteFaye Actually, it’s not “ridiculously easy”. Arenanet has posted on the forums already that they have been working to resolve the issue, but it’s proving more difficult than expected. And as I previously stated, they have bigger things to deal with before this which is a class-balance issue and not a game-playability issue. The game comes before any individual class, the way it should be.

They’re working on it, please don’t act like they’re not because you realize what needs to be done and think it should be simple. You don’t know their programming and you don’t know how their game logic works for these things and neither do I. Plus, they’ll want to test any potential fixes before release to make sure they don’t make the problem worse or make more new ones. It’s gonna be a while, just be patient please.

SixSins.7610:

@AlietteFaye Actually, it’s not “ridiculously easy”. Arenanet has posted on the forums already that they have been working to resolve the issue, but it’s proving more difficult than expected. And as I previously stated, they have bigger things to deal with before this which is a class-balance issue and not a game-playability issue. The game comes before any individual class, the way it should be.

They’re working on it, please don’t act like they’re not because you realize what needs to be done and think it should be simple. You don’t know their programming and you don’t know how their game logic works for these things and neither do I. Plus, they’ll want to test any potential fixes before release to make sure they don’t make the problem worse or make more new ones. It’s gonna be a while, just be patient please.

No point in being patient. We were all patient since BWE1.

You just have to accept it.

And I don’t fully buy the argument that its not that important.

Kits are a huge part of the engineer, and they never had the issues they discovered in the first month, during the betas. During the betas it was about balancing, about preparing and making it good. They didn’t have to deal with connectivity, bots, exploits and so on.
They’ve had plenty of time and remember, they did promise

Lyuben.2613:

SixSins.7610:

@AlietteFaye Actually, it’s not “ridiculously easy”. Arenanet has posted on the forums already that they have been working to resolve the issue, but it’s proving more difficult than expected. And as I previously stated, they have bigger things to deal with before this which is a class-balance issue and not a game-playability issue. The game comes before any individual class, the way it should be.

They’re working on it, please don’t act like they’re not because you realize what needs to be done and think it should be simple. You don’t know their programming and you don’t know how their game logic works for these things and neither do I. Plus, they’ll want to test any potential fixes before release to make sure they don’t make the problem worse or make more new ones. It’s gonna be a while, just be patient please.

No point in being patient. We were all patient since BWE1.

You just have to accept it.

And I don’t fully buy the argument that its not that important.

Kits are a huge part of the engineer, and they never had the issues they discovered in the first month, during the betas. During the betas it was about balancing, about preparing and making it good. They didn’t have to deal with connectivity, bots, exploits and so on.
They’ve had plenty of time and remember, they did promise

I’m trying to hold out hope. Well, that and I honestly believe that it’s not easy or it would have been easily fixed earlier. I don’t think it should take this long, but I’m giving Arenanet the benefit of the doubt that they are working on it since they’ve posted saying such and given their word. Still, I don’t know their coding or how many people they have available to devote to this or what those individuals qualifications or work schedules are like so I’m willing to give it some more time. Once the games been out long enough for classes to sort themselves out a little (IE: People stop asking for overhaul of the toolbelt system or being mad over the fact that kits exist as often) I think we’ll start seeing more changes to classes in a positive way. People need time to play and test and find out what really isn’t good at all and what’s just been overlooked.

this (the kit not remembering auto-attacks) issue is probably the one and only time i’d want a macro system.

if there were macros, there’s most likely be a script command to activate auto-attack, so, you could make it equip → turn on auto-attack with a click of a button.

this doesn’t really effect me… until i decide to use the elixir gun. it’s annoying to switch auto-attack on again and again when i wanted to switch around kits/weapons, which, i do constantly because, well, sticking with one set is stupid when i’m running three kits.

anyway, all we can do is hope for a fix soonTM.

They should make it so equiping certain kits add certain stats

Grenade kit = condition dmg + power
Elixir gun = precision + healing
etc…
(just suggestions not any thought into them)

But as far as carrying over the sigil from your main hand, why do we lose the ability to have different kinds of sigils?? Engineers dont have and skills tht equal most sigil buffs
other classes can have up to 4 different sigils all together ( i know not all of them) so its bad enough tht right now we dont get any for kits, but having the one from our main hand just carried over doesnt seem fair either.

Seems like having a kit slot that you can attach a sigil to tht would work on all your kits would be more equal.

If its the 1 sec CD tht kits get tht makes it so they take up a utility slot, dont offer stats and dont offer sigils then pls make it so kits have the same CD as secondary weapons

CriSPeH.8512:

But as far as carrying over the sigil from your main hand, why do we lose the ability to have different kinds of sigils?? Engineers dont have and skills tht equal most sigil buffs
other classes can have up to 4 different sigils all together ( i know not all of them) so its bad enough tht right now we dont get any for kits, but having the one from our main hand just carried over doesnt seem fair either.

Seems like having a kit slot that you can attach a sigil to tht would work on all your kits would be more equal.

If its the 1 sec CD tht kits get tht makes it so they take up a utility slot, dont offer stats and dont offer sigils then pls make it so kits have the same CD as secondary weapons

Because unlike other classes, we can be absurdly broken and overpowered far more easily than other classes because of our flexibility. It takes much more in-depth testing for our profession than any other because of this.

Changing the cool-down for changing kits would mean a drastic overhaul to the basic design to the class. The engineer class is defined by our utility skills we choose where other classes their weapons define them.

We are a class where changing a single utility skill most likely means nothing to us. I have in dungeons where I have my changed my utility skills at least 3 times to fit the room we’re entering or boss we are facing without the need to change traits. These changes changed the entire play-style of my engineer in how I did combat with enemies. Other classes would be essentially playing the same with minor changes.

TL;DR: The engineer class wouldn’t be the engineer class anymore with that cool down change.

I grab my Tool Kit, and even without the main hand stats, the 3 hits like a truck.

So it can be done. Why cant they just increase the dmg on abilities themselves? Isnt weapon damage all that weapons give in stats anyway, save for the sigil?

That part might be harder to fix but its not really the end of the world is it. Using a rifle i always run around with 1 less sigil anyway, and it doesnt affect me that much to be honest.

Problem is it’s troublesome, people already notice and they will change back to Main hand to use their F1-F4 skill or profession skills cus only on Main Hand you get more Damage/Regen/Heals.

Especially in PvE/WvW/Dungeons nobody will just use Main hand, it’s just an utility thus often Engineers use kits instead with.

If it’s dps issue then lower kit’s base damage but instead let all stat affect kits, especially the rest of the stat like Vitality, Toughness & Healing Power.

The problem is that it is more of an internal mechanics issue. Bundles were not designed with these nifty features, and that issue gets passed down to kits and transformations. which I assume must also be bundles or inherited from the bundle code.

A simple fix would be to have a hidden equipment slot specifically for weapons when you transform. Not exactly elegant, but it doesn’t require massive modifications to the bundle code.

Numbers-wise, with the bug fixed, FT would probably be right where it needs to be, Grenades would have to come down, and EG/Wrench/Elixir X would have to come up.