Guild Wars 2

So whenever I see people use medkits, its hardly based around support for other players.

You can make it so you can deploy the things a medkit can do from a range, but the fact it takes up a trait, and the long CDs and small pickup range, it doesn’t seem viable at all.

I was thinking they could make it so that bandages would heal in an aoe for like 50% when you get the trait that allows you to throw them. I would just love to see medkit used in a more support way instead of throwing bandages in front of the player and speed kits.

Thoughts?

I was actually thinking about this today, and I agree with you.

Using medkit to help another player is at times impossible, and extremely difficult and unlikely for the rest.

I’m for that. It would make the trait more dynamic, giving you the option to keep stronger med kits mainly for yourself, or lesser aoe medkits for group support. As it is, I never see Engis drop med kits for group play…it’s always Healing Turret.

Mmmm… I always saw the Healing Turret as the “support” healing skill. The Med Kit is designed around preemptive healing and granting an untraited condition removal and offensive buffs through Drop Stimulant and proccing Altruism.

I like your idea about Packaged Stimulants though.

Calling it a med kit is misleading. You would think that a med kit would be used during battle but its more for preparation of pve than anything.

Well, they fixed Packaged Stimulants, so you can toss your kits at your friends… or not, because that’s not a good use of anything.

I use an elixir build with Elixir H, but I still use the medkit in some situations. For instance, if we’re running dungeons and we’re waiting for some NPC dialog to finish before the fight commences, I place the deployables around the area, and then switch back to Elixir H. This way, you’ve used the kit in a support fashion because your allies can pick them up if they need them, and you’re not actively using that healing ability in battle if you don’t want to.

I also feed the stimulant to supply caravans in WvW and drop medkits in towers when we’re defending (provided the enemies are still beating on the fortifications). There’s a few other “freebie” abilities engineers get through their toolbelt skills as well, like free blast finishes in lightning fields when stacking your zerg or laying mine fields without having to keep the mine on your utility slot.

As for builds that I actively use the medkit in, I generally consume the packs myself, although I’ll dump them around if there’s a lull in the action. For instance, if I go to cap the midpoint at that start of an sPvP match and the enemy isn’t there yet, I’ll drop the packs around so they’re pre-deployed for whoever needs them.

I think that the healing turret is likely intended to be the support-ey heal. Maybe we’ll see some buffs to that in the future? It’s certainly under-represented at the moment. Time will tell!

I would be super happy with Med-kit if they made the cast time on the abilities 1/4s instead of 1/2s. There definitely is a lot of ‘down time’ when healing up.

Chaith.8256:

I think that the healing turret is likely intended to be the support-ey heal. Maybe we’ll see some buffs to that in the future? It’s certainly under-represented at the moment. Time will tell!

I would be super happy with Med-kit if they made the cast time on the abilities 1/4s instead of 1/2s. There definitely is a lot of ‘down time’ when healing up.

The way healing turret is now, you’re disadvantaging yourself if you let it sit and do it’s thing. The best ways to use it are to blast finish the water field, pick it up for shorter cooldown, or try and pop the overcharged skill quickly (I think you might be able to get it on initial placement if you do it quickly). Otherwise, you’re just letting it put out a regen buff and you lose your ability to actually heal yourself when you need it. The only time it’s worth keeping it out is if you’re idling since the regen duration will increase over time.

Yamsandjams.3267:

Chaith.8256:

I think that the healing turret is likely intended to be the support-ey heal. Maybe we’ll see some buffs to that in the future? It’s certainly under-represented at the moment. Time will tell!

I would be super happy with Med-kit if they made the cast time on the abilities 1/4s instead of 1/2s. There definitely is a lot of ‘down time’ when healing up.

The way healing turret is now, you’re disadvantaging yourself if you let it sit and do it’s thing. The best ways to use it are to blast finish the water field, pick it up for shorter cooldown, or try and pop the overcharged skill quickly (I think you might be able to get it on initial placement if you do it quickly). Otherwise, you’re just letting it put out a regen buff and you lose your ability to actually heal yourself when you need it. The only time it’s worth keeping it out is if you’re idling since the regen duration will increase over time.

Yep, you’re correct. The AoE support (when used in a way that doesn’t kitten yourself) is pretty much one water-blast and 8+ seconds of AoE regen every 20s.

Cleansing burst is AoE too, it’ll fire immediately after .5 seconds if you spam the button, but no regen or water field. Situational, and combined with a long CD, yucky.

I feel like it could be much better. Fingers crossed for the balance god’s favor!

I don’t know about you guys, but i would much rather if Med kit got ignored.. currently is awesome and it works perfectly.. a little attention and it might not anymore.

Keep in mind that people who don’t play engi, don’t know how good this healing skills is, if they find out! its a bye bye

google.3709:

I don’t know about you guys, but i would much rather if Med kit got ignored.. currently is awesome and it works perfectly.. a little attention and it might not anymore.

Keep in mind that people who don’t play engi, don’t know how good this healing skills is, if they find out! its a bye bye

Rofl. +1

Heal turret is 16s regen, two 1/2s waterfields that apply regen, err am I wrong? I guess if you pop it too quick you’ll only get that 8s. so all in all cd is more like 16s for pickup or 21-22 for blast. I like the idea of more supporty skills, but dont hurt my medkit please.

So, are we agreeing to fine as is or does there need to be more discussion?

Chaith.8256:

google.3709:

I don’t know about you guys, but i would much rather if Med kit got ignored.. currently is awesome and it works perfectly.. a little attention and it might not anymore.

Keep in mind that people who don’t play engi, don’t know how good this healing skills is, if they find out! its a bye bye

Rofl. +1

You just know that Medkit is going to get the nerfbat. When the devs suggested that they would ‘reexamine how might stacking works for HGH builds’, the fact that activating Medkit counts as using a heal skill immediately came to mind.

That being said, I hope they do indeed make it more ‘supporty’. As it is, it’s very strong, and a good choice to keep yourself alive. But even the ‘preemptive’ use of dropping things ahead of time is hardly ever actually useful in a party situation. Needs something to make it compete with the condition removal and buff of H and the obvious benefits of Healing Turret.

We have a “support heal” its called healing turret. I would rather keep the med kit as it now is. Very strong personal heal. If you couple it with 25 points in inventions, you find that you’ll never run out of heals, just out of time for healing

I used to find it very clunky and thought, “this is meant for use out of combat.” Then I started running dungeons and learning how to use it. It eventually became my favorite heal.

Chaith.8256:

Yamsandjams.3267:

Chaith.8256:

I think that the healing turret is likely intended to be the support-ey heal. Maybe we’ll see some buffs to that in the future? It’s certainly under-represented at the moment. Time will tell!

I would be super happy with Med-kit if they made the cast time on the abilities 1/4s instead of 1/2s. There definitely is a lot of ‘down time’ when healing up.

The way healing turret is now, you’re disadvantaging yourself if you let it sit and do it’s thing. The best ways to use it are to blast finish the water field, pick it up for shorter cooldown, or try and pop the overcharged skill quickly (I think you might be able to get it on initial placement if you do it quickly). Otherwise, you’re just letting it put out a regen buff and you lose your ability to actually heal yourself when you need it. The only time it’s worth keeping it out is if you’re idling since the regen duration will increase over time.

Yep, you’re correct. The AoE support (when used in a way that doesn’t kitten yourself) is pretty much one water-blast and 8+ seconds of AoE regen every 20s.

Cleansing burst is AoE too, it’ll fire immediately after .5 seconds if you spam the button, but no regen or water field. Situational, and combined with a long CD, yucky.

I feel like it could be much better. Fingers crossed for the balance god’s favor!

Actually, you can get multiple water blasts if you use other skills in it. I run P/S, so I can get 2 water blasts in the field, and a third if I’m using elixir gun (have to be a bit slick on the keys though). Good for a nice burst-type heal. Not really a combo field that allies can capitalize on though.

Lord Aargadon.4135:

Heal turret is 16s regen, two 1/2s waterfields that apply regen, err am I wrong? I guess if you pop it too quick you’ll only get that 8s. so all in all cd is more like 16s for pickup or 21-22 for blast. I like the idea of more supporty skills, but dont hurt my medkit please.

So, are we agreeing to fine as is or does there need to be more discussion?

It’s not fine as it is, but the problem is that it’s design is completely flawed. It is the most counter-intuitive healing skill in the game.

A player’s first instinct would be to deploy the turret when they need some healing, and then let it buff nearby allies with the regen field, but this is easily one of the least effective ways to use the healing turret. The reasons this is ineffective is as follows:

1. You will not be able to give yourself a sizeable heal when you need it. If you start taking lots of damage, you cannot immediately redeploy your healing turret if it’s already deployed. The overcharge skills does provide healing, but it’s supplementary at best and is delayed until the next time the turret is scheduled to fire, at which point you could already be dead.

2. Leaving the turret deployed makes it vulnerable to destruction. If it gets destroyed, you will have to suffer the full cooldown, and you will not have capitalized on the water field blast finisher.

3. The healing potential from the water field blast combo exceeds that of the 8 second regeneration boon that the turret provides. You can get 2-3 blast combos in this field fairly easily, and it also means that you can start the recharge on your turret cooldown. As such, you can have greater healing over time by not letting it sit deployed, even for your allies around you. Regeneration can also be stripped/converted, and there are other sources of regeneration that can be used to complement the blast finishers.

So really, the best way to use healing turret is not as a turret at all. The only real situation it would be beneficial to leave it deployed is in a PvE scenario where it won’t be utterly consumed by AoEs and where you can simply sit back and attack while someone else tanks the mobs. Even then though, the potential healing from the water blast finishers can exceed that of the regen duration.

I’d actually rather see the healing turret as some sort of persistent troll unguent field that works separately from regeneration… There needs to be some incentive for keeping it deployed and restricting yourself to a fixed area. I think people like how it works right now, but I don’t see why this needs to be a turret since it’s not being used as a turret at all.

Besides, you can always drop the box if you want a healing turret to be sitting there.

I was referring to medkit fine as is, not heal turret.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Mmmm… I always saw the Healing Turret as the “support” healing skill. The Med Kit is designed around preemptive healing and granting an untraited condition removal and offensive buffs through Drop Stimulant and proccing Altruism.

I like your idea about Packaged Stimulants though.

Trouble with the healing turret is that it only provides regen (therefore lacks burst healing) and is destroyed really fast if turrets aren’t traited. A single hit from a boss will kill it instantly.

Maybe make the healing kits LARGER so they’re easier to pick up by other players. As is, you have to walk DIRECTLY OVER THEM to pick them up and sometimes that’s just not possible when things get chaotic in a fight.

The way to make use the healing turret regen is to pop it down when there’s nothing happening to let it stack the boon on you then pick it up at the first sign of a fight so that it’ll be out of CD when I need it the real heal.

Not sure it’s worth the effort though.

stof.9341:

The way to make use the healing turret regen is to pop it down when there’s nothing happening to let it stack the boon on you then pick it up at the first sign of a fight so that it’ll be out of CD when I need it the real heal.

Not sure it’s worth the effort though.

Depends on how high your healing stat is. Mine is moderate-to-low (I have a few Sapphire trinkets).

More so than its low durability, my concern over the healing turret is that its activation skill is so kitten unreliable. I wish it would activate instantly when I use it. Sometimes it takes a ridiculously long time to activate (like 5-10 seconds!), and sometimes I’m not sure if it worked at all. It’s one of the main reasons why I stopped playing turret Engie.

CrazyAce.3842:

Trouble with the healing turret is that it only provides regen (therefore lacks burst healing) and is destroyed really fast if turrets aren’t traited. A single hit from a boss will kill it instantly.

It offers quite a bit more than that. If you detonate it while its short Water field is active, you will create an Area Heal that has a pretty good radius.

But before doing that, overcharging the Healing Turret offers a group condition cleanse. Meaning all conditions removed.

Regenerating Mist is also one of the better toolbelt skills we have, that has an additional Water field that can proc additional Area Heals.

The Healing Turret—even untraited—is the best group healing skill Engineers have at their disposal. When using runes of Altruism the Med Kit is better, but for everything else the Healing Turret is exceptional.

CrazyAce.3842:

stof.9341:

The way to make use the healing turret regen is to pop it down when there’s nothing happening to let it stack the boon on you then pick it up at the first sign of a fight so that it’ll be out of CD when I need it the real heal.

Not sure it’s worth the effort though.

Depends on how high your healing stat is. Mine is moderate-to-low (I have a few Sapphire trinkets).

More so than its low durability, my concern over the healing turret is that its activation skill is so kitten unreliable. I wish it would activate instantly when I use it. Sometimes it takes a ridiculously long time to activate (like 5-10 seconds!), and sometimes I’m not sure if it worked at all. It’s one of the main reasons why I stopped playing turret Engie.

That’s because it’s not instant. Cleansing Burst activates during the next Healing Turret “activation.”

A good way of knowing when you’ll get Cleansing Burst and when to detonate it for the Water field is to make sure combat circles are turned on. When you see the white circle around your turret, that’s when Cleansing Burst will show up—and when you should similarly detonate it in general.

I think the med packs could use a better graphic.

Even when I drop them for other players, they sometimes avoid them for fear of tripping over another trap or hazard in a dungeon.

Change the tool belt function for healing turret into a 25 second CD self heal with a small healing regen attached and remove the instant heal from healing turret. That would allow it to function better in groups and be beneficial for the engineer. Combine all the med packs into one ability slot and give it a longer CD and have them space out around when deployed so they aren’t stacked on top of each other.

That would free up 2 slots, tho honestly I am not certain what could be put there that wouldn’t possibly make the med kit just as undesirable as it is now since it is built around the engineer not doing damage while using it. Could maybe have one slot mimic healing turrets healing mist so you could switch back to dpsing and only going into med kit to refresh HoT on the group.

Possibly the only real thing you could add to it without making it too good all things considered. Med kit in its current form is one of the best things in the healing slot for solo play with its low CD condition removal and speed/crit boost abilities. It could use some work maybe for group play but its current form isn’t bad.

Seras.5702:

I’m for that. It would make the trait more dynamic, giving you the option to keep stronger med kits mainly for yourself, or lesser aoe medkits for group support. As it is, I never see Engis drop med kits for group play…it’s always Healing Turret.

This is honestly the only reason I bring Healing Turret over Medkit. Seriously—I run Static Discharge with Healing Turret. Maybe I’m just doing it wrong, but I like being able to help people. Also, double water fields is amazing. Medkit just seemed so wonky to me. You’ll almost never get targeted support out with it.

I have one suggestion for the medkit: Allow me to drop the skills on myself so that I can use Antidote when I’m immobilized.

Only reason i grab the medkit is the 5 second shorter cooldown on the toolbelt heal vs the elixir. Having it as a kit is cumbersome in the first place, that you have to run forward to pick up the kits to heal yourself do not help, and #1 is buggy as it can be interrupted by the other 2!

Deified.7520:

So whenever I see people use medkits, its hardly based around support for other players.

You can make it so you can deploy the things a medkit can do from a range, but the fact it takes up a trait, and the long CDs and small pickup range, it doesn’t seem viable at all.

I was thinking they could make it so that bandages would heal in an aoe for like 50% when you get the trait that allows you to throw them. I would just love to see medkit used in a more support way instead of throwing bandages in front of the player and speed kits.

Thoughts?

Was thinking they could have done alot more with this too. Especially with the kit refinement, making a protective bubble that lasts only 2 seconds wasn’t my idea of an improvement at all.

I was hoping for a second AOE heal or a second drop of just bandages all over the place on top of the supply drop. That would have been more useful.

I wish they would move Super Elixir to Med Kit, so we could have one proper support kit, and Elixir Gun could be reworked to be more of a conditions weapon.

Little late for this post, but just to put my 2 cents in… I play a bunker engineer for PvP, and I prefer the medkit over the turret for survival. My setup is p/s, 10/0/30/30/0, elixir C, toolkit, and bomb kit. with shamans talisman, and forge runes. Since my defensive amulet supports condition damage, I make a good round of conditions, but the majority of that damage is my 12 stacks of confusion + burning. In most situations, I work on stacking those 2 conditions, and maintaining spot heals on myself while they tick. Mostly because the pistol doesn’t do a ton of bleed damage overall. I can easily maintain myself while using the medkit, and be able to do decent damage.

Now as to why I prefer it over the Turret. Yes the turret has a water field, but with my setup I also bring in fire and smoke fields from the bomb kit. Healing overall for the turret is about 8750 over about 25 second period; This includes the short regen from the turrt + one water field blast. While using it at one point I could also time the toolbelt skill with the Big ol’ Bomb for another blast, as well as the shield 4 key for another healing, so if I were to pile these heals up all together, that about 11750 healing. Now this assumes that I don’t have any other fields in the way. And this is where I have my problems.

Since I’m running bombs for point support/bunkering I can often have fire or smoke fields up, which can get in the way of the healing, so I’ve often come across that I need
a big heal, but can’t muster it due to the other fields in the way. However, with the medkit I lay my pack preemptively as was suggested previously, so I usually have many ~4500 heals lying around in case the person I’m fighting pulls me down. This usually saves my main heal, which is nice. I also like the medkit for kite healing, glue bomb + kite and kit works out rather nicely. Also, the usually healing with a kit rotation + toolbelt skills is about 10500 healing, which is nice, since it’s reliable. imobilility is an issue no doubt, but with toss elixir C I can remove it if it really is in the way.

This does come with a downfall, is less condition removal (if you’re not runed for it), as you can only cure 1 condition with the 4 key. However, I think it’s a nice tradeoff, since you’ll have more reliant heals during condition stacking against you and you have cooldowns.

Reading some of the other posts, I do have some comments on somethings:

- As mentioned at one point was kit refinement. I don’t use this trait very often, unless I’m running a solo kit. The main problem is that the traits for it tend to be very situational, and switching between kits a lot tends disallow cycling of the trait in good order.

- As for elixir gun. I used to use this for bunkering at one point, it’s a nice heal and puts on a nice few conditions, however I find it lacking in many points: It doesn’t mesh will with the turret, as it has a light field that lasts for 10 seconds, and can easily get in the way of your water fields. The 4 key sends me flying, and the distance and time that I’m away from point they can get it to half neutral. The 3 ability is nice still, stacking poison/vuln is great support when your team is around. The 2 ability is rather unreliable. While it does cripple my opponent, the bouncing usually doesn’t hit me when I need it to. The auto attack isn’t bad, I like it rather, however when bunkering it cripples the damage that I do to use it frequently. I would rather use a grenade/eg build with the rampager’s talisman to do plenty of condition damage, good attack, and maintain weaknesss on specific targets. But I would rather use toolkit for the blocks, and added confusion/control for bunkering.

- For Agnima’s post, I think changes like that to the medkit would be amazing. I’m not so much for making the medkit more for support, rather than personal survival, but some ideas may be a channeled “bandage party” skill which can a small aoe heal, as well as another stimback to give a different boon. I would personally like stability, considering as we only have 2 ways to get stability; Ones chance, and the other lasts about 1 second. Medkit as it stands is not a bad ability, just lacks group support, even when upgraded with the trait. I personally do not like the trait myself, as it then takes time to throw it at the right direction while healing myself. As for my suggested bandage skill, I liked the empower skill guardian’s have for their staves, and I thought it would be an interesting channel heal to add to help support the party, while laying down packs to help in case they needed. This would also free up the engineer’s time to return to doing damage.

Anyways, sorry about the long-winded post, just thought I’d put some practicality behind the kit, and a small analysis as the advantages and disadvantages to things.

For #1 Medkit
Place a Medkit
Single Heals 1500
3 Charges renews every 20 Sek

For #2 Syringe
Place a Syringe
Regeneration 5 sek
3 Charges renews every 20 Sek

For #3 purging Tinkture
place a small Field that removes Conditions, pulsing every 2 seconds for about 4 sek (waterfield) 1 min Cooldown

For #4 as it is now only give Speed to surrounding friendlies

Toolbelt
as is

Haralin.1473:

For #1 Medkit
Place a Medkit
Single Heals 1500
3 Charges renews every 20 Sek

For #2 Syringe
Place a Syringe
Regeneration 5 sek
3 Charges renews every 20 Sek

For #3 purging Tinkture
place a small Field that removes Conditions, pulsing every 2 seconds for about 4 sek (waterfield) 1 min Cooldown

For #4 as it is now only give Speed to surrounding friendlies

Toolbelt
as is

I’d say make #5 the #3 you suggested and then maybe slap something else onto the #3, but I like your idea a lot more than the current one!!

I find the Medkit very, very meh. Only reason I take it is the faster self heal vs elixir. But if I want to support my bros, healing turret.

ANET should count the clicks that people actually do on every skill just to see how useless some of the engie’s things really are.

mecra.5780:

I find the Medkit very, very meh. Only reason I take it is the faster self heal vs elixir. But if I want to support my bros, healing turret.

ANET should count the clicks that people actually do on every skill just to see how useless some of the engie’s things really are.

I have entire builds based on Med Kit rotations, the skill is amazing in the right hands. Enhance Performance, Sigil of Battle, Runes of Altruism when combined grant 9 stacks of Might just for equipping it and allows for permanent upkeep on Fury with Drop Stimulant and the Rune proc. Not to mention permanent Vigor and Swiftness between Speedy Kits and Invigorating speed, and if you want to take it one step further you use Kit Refinement to reflect projectiles on equip to cover your tool belt heal from ranged interrupts. The amount of boons that can be maintained on permanent upkeep (might, fury, vigor, swiftness) with Med Kit rotations makes Elixir H look like a child’s plaything. Good for an HGH build, but the rest of the time its between Med Kit & Healing Turret.

Now that being said, the trait “Packaged Stimulants” is bad and needs a rework from +25% healing to make med pack skill #1 grant regeneration, med pack skill #2 grant protection, med pack #3 grant vigor, antidote cures an extra condition, and drop stimulant lasts longer, all for 3 seconds. Keep em thrown, even though that’s the reason I won’t ever take the trait, so that it actually provides a support function in builds for which the trait is already intended.

I didn’t say to make it go away. I said it’s meh. If you took the same skill and put different abilities in it, like you indicated later, it would be much better.

mecra.5780:

I didn’t say to make it go away. I said it’s meh. If you took the same skill and put different abilities in it, like you indicated later, it would be much better.

As it is I find it to be well balanced against its competition for that heal slot. The skill specific trait for it is really the low point. Reworking the skills in the med kit to grant various boons by default I feel would be imbalanced unless they were very short 1 second durations that would then be improved by my suggested change to the trait by an additional 2 seconds.

I find it terribly balanced in that slot myself. Sure it works if used in a massive chain of abilities, runes, and traits, but the thing itself isn’t that good. The mechanics behind it don’t agree with me. -shrug- It’s difficult to use when you actually need the components it gives. I would rather it be faster by doing those things to yourself, and then use a trait to give it to others. Dropping an antidote and have to run over it is cumbersome and not well designed. Same thing with the actual medkit. It can definitely be altered to be more effective and using a trait, more utility-usable.

Skills shouldn’t be unchanged simply because you can make them good with a huge amount of building towards that.

mecra.5780:

I find it terribly balanced in that slot myself. Sure it works if used in a massive chain of abilities, runes, and traits, but the thing itself isn’t that good. The mechanics behind it don’t agree with me. -shrug- It’s difficult to use when you actually need the components it gives. I would rather it be faster by doing those things to yourself, and then use a trait to give it to others. Dropping an antidote and have to run over it is cumbersome and not well designed. Same thing with the actual medkit. It can definitely be altered to be more effective and using a trait, more utility-usable.

Skills shouldn’t be unchanged simply because you can make them good with a huge amount of building towards that.

It kinda how the game mechanics and specifically how engineer mechanics work. Somethings are natively better than others, but cannot be greatly improved. Other things are natively weaker than others and can be incredibly improved (granted some things like the Mortar elite just always suck). Really comes down to build composition with Med Kit, and if you’re already specd for kit swapping its an obvious choice. If you’re specd for elixirs Elixir H is the obvious choice, if your not really specd for either Healing Turret works wonders.

Personally I’ve had no less than 10 points in tools for Speedy Kits and Med Kit in my heal slot in 99% of my builds since launch, but I basically live in WvW where permanent swiftness is a roaming requirement.

i’d like it if the med kit trait allow the skills to be targeted, like i can target my ally and use 5 to give him swiftness and fury, guaranteed. the trait as it is now i feel is quite useless. the packages hover in the air making it hard to use in combat and they have a tiny aoe.

ellesee.8297:

i’d like it if the med kit trait allow the skills to be targeted, like i can target my ally and use 5 to give him swiftness and fury, guaranteed. the trait as it is now i feel is quite useless. the packages hover in the air making it hard to use in combat and they have a tiny aoe.

I know there’s a minority of Engineers who used the trait prior to it’s buff and enjoyed being able to use it in this manner. I hated it and haven’t used it enough to get good with it so I cant speak to how effective it is in well practiced hands.

Perhaps, when traited, instead of throwing them it air drops them like supply crate and has a larger area of effect?