Guild Wars 2

Could the dev’s please test this scenario out:

one tester uses the normal Grenade Kit (yes, the nerfed one is fine), the other uses the ELITE skill Mortar.

Use different settings in terms of walls, environment, npc’s… but mostly test against each other.

Several points of testing:

- who does more damage?

- who outranges the other?

- who can fight in melee range?

- who can avoid most damage by base mechanics such as moving and dodging?

- who provides the most utility in different situations?

- who is the most easily disarmed by either death or losing it’s weapon?

Thank you, happily awaiting your most interesting results.

Look

ArenaNet is

you with me so far?

Special they are wierd people They are the people that are very different .. i wonder what we would find if we open their empty heads

you wont see any changes / buffs at all for engineer so i recommend to keep playing this proffesion if you like waypointing if not its time to

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rooooooolllls

In before the grenade kit is nerfed even more so that the mortar doesn’t seem useless in comparison.

More quality skill balance by Anet.

In my opinion, the Mortar is in better standing since the Nade Kit’s nerf.

However, from what I know, it still suffers from a couple of bugs, unit fragility (it breaks easy from enemy attacks), and doesn’t offer much to compensate for lack of mobility compared to the Nade Kit.

Swizzle.7982:

More quality skill balance by Anet.

Except if you knew anything about Engies, you’d realize that for the general population of engineers – Grenade Kit is still the best choice. Even after the 30% nerf.

And in either PvP or PvE, many are saying engineers are significantly stronger with the change for sigils to apply to kits.

So, yes, quality balance indeed! ANet did a good job.

DreamOfACure.4382:

Except if you knew anything about Engies, you’d realize that for the general population of engineers – Grenade Kit is still the best choice. Even after the 30% nerf.

And in either PvP or PvE, many are saying engineers are significantly stronger with the change for sigils to apply to kits.

So, yes, quality balance indeed! ANet did a good job.

So the best choice kit is still the best choice kit even after getting nerfed!?
Not sure if I’d call that quality balance at all.

The mortar is a joke.
We already have Turrets that are weak and dont move so thanks for the Turret thats weak doesnt move AND I have to sit in it to use its weakness.

The Mortar should have been an Elite kit that put a cannon on your back that you could run around with. Thats something better fitting since its taking one thing and “Engineering” it for personal use.

Yup Portable Backpack Mortar, throw in a speed decrease to even things out.
I would like my PBM by next patch please.

DreamOfACure.4382:

Except if you knew anything about Engies, you’d realize that for the general population of engineers – Grenade Kit is still the best choice. Even after the 30% nerf..

I never said anything to the contrary. I agree, even this gimped version of grenades is still our best kit, that’s pretty pathetic, if you call that quality balance.. well.. okiedoki.

What I meant was that Anet’s fix for the Mortar could be nerfing the grenade kit even more, to the point where the mortar appears ‘useful’, as that would be on par with their usual ingenious methods of ‘fixing’ the engineer.

Mortar can be stationary, but should operate without you being in it.
Just give the engineer a ‘pet skill bar’ to operate the mortar that stands there alone.

This way it can be what it is, while the engineer still is mobile and fighting

That would be my own solution for it.

And yes: make it a bit less easy to destroy please…

Swizzle.7982:

DreamOfACure.4382:

Except if you knew anything about Engies, you’d realize that for the general population of engineers – Grenade Kit is still the best choice. Even after the 30% nerf..

I never said anything to the contrary. I agree, even this gimped version of grenades is still our best kit, that’s pretty pathetic, if you call that quality balance.. well.. okiedoki.

What I meant was that Anet’s fix for the Mortar could be nerfing the grenade kit even more, to the point where the mortar appears ‘useful’, as that would be on par with their usual ingenious methods of ‘fixing’ the engineer.

That’s the thing… The nerf didn’t actually have a drastic effect on the maximum output of grenades over time. Within 1-3%. The big thing now is just getting the most out of your Sigils to bring you back up to the top. That 5% damage sigil? It actually evens out 15% of the 30% nerf.

Now the only thing is that you can’t bring Rifle with your Grenades and expect to deal quite the same damage. All kits are likely to be balanced around having access to 2 sigils at a time instead of just 1.

(I’m thinking of suggesting ANet make it so only the MH sigil applies to the kits, so that Rifle users aren’t missing out. Which would come with a logical 15% increase in Grenade 1 damage to compensate.)

And to be On-Topic: Yes, please buff Mortar. It needs a reworking. Make it a true turret, that fires on it’s own, that way at least it’s supplemental damage instead of nerfing yourself with your Elite.

Swizzle.7982:

I never said anything to the contrary. I agree, even this gimped version of grenades is still our best kit, that’s pretty pathetic, if you call that quality balance.. well.. okiedoki.

It is still quality balance, because they closed the gap between kits.

Grenades aren’t outrageously ahead like they used to be. Other kits actually have a fighting chance due to also being affected by sigils.

And if you don’t want to have to clarify yourself, try mentioning the positives instead of making a completely negative post that doesn’t even begin to apprehend the Grenade Kit’s current state.

Okiedoki?

like i’ve said before, almost all engineer aoes are avoidable without pressing the dodge button

I see mortar just like any other weapon conjure.

Except that it’s an elite version of a weapon conjure, and it’s a weapon conjure that must remain in the spot it’s summoned (it can’t even be carried like the Warrior banners.)

This means that it should either be more powerful than most weapon conjures to compensate, or it should be changed to bring it more in line with other weapon conjures. Someone suggested making it more of a rocket launcher that can be carried at reduced movement speed. I like that idea. It’s probably better than making the Mortar deal a ton of damage to make up for the immobility, since then you’d have other classes complaining about the skill’s damage output.

-Travail.

Mobile AoE knockback… I’d use it! Or I’d try it out, at least. Supply Crate is mainly for the daze anyway (and the net turret), so I wouldn’t mind popping mortar just to blast a group apart or off a cliff.

DreamOfACure.4382:

It is still quality balance, because they closed the gap between kits.

That’s not balance. Not only should the engineers skills be balanced with each other, but the engineer should be balanced with other classes. Grenades at least allowed us to do damage in line with other classes, now they’ve been nerfed they are just about as useless as the flamethrower. That’s not balance, making engineers suck at everything, and it’s about as far from quality as you can get.

DreamOfACure.4382:

And if you don’t want to have to clarify yourself, try mentioning the positives

Ok. Well, Im glad Anet put in an option to delete characters. Positive enough for you?

LegoTechnic.5910:

Mobile AoE knockback… I’d use it! Or I’d try it out, at least. Supply Crate is mainly for the daze anyway (and the net turret), so I wouldn’t mind popping mortar just to blast a group apart or off a cliff.

hardly mobile: once you set it up, it stays put.
And you better hope no ranged sees you, or it is destroyed in a few hits.
Not that you have a melee range by the way, you can not hit anything too close.
Furthest reach is 1400 since the trait still doesn’t work.

I honestly believe a mine would be a LOT more effective to do what you suggest: throw some of a cliff.

Mortars need to be positioned somewhere entirely safe, but also within reach.
There hardly ever is such a place in any fight.

Inside a keep door perhaps, for defense… but than a flamethrower or grenades are doing the job just as well.

Kimbald.2697:

LegoTechnic.5910:

Mobile AoE knockback… I’d use it! Or I’d try it out, at least. Supply Crate is mainly for the daze anyway (and the net turret), so I wouldn’t mind popping mortar just to blast a group apart or off a cliff.

hardly mobile: once you set it up, it stays put.
And you better hope no ranged sees you, or it is destroyed in a few hits.
Not that you have a melee range by the way, you can not hit anything too close.
Furthest reach is 1400 since the trait still doesn’t work.

I honestly believe a mine would be a LOT more effective to do what you suggest: throw some of a cliff.

Mortars need to be positioned somewhere entirely safe, but also within reach.
There hardly ever is such a place in any fight.

Inside a keep door perhaps, for defense… but than a flamethrower or grenades are doing the job just as well.

My comment was in response to the ones above it suggesting changing mortar into something like a rocket launcher, letting you move with it (essentially making it a type of limited-use kit like the conjured elementalist weapons). I’m perfectly aware of how kitten terrible the mortar is currently.

Wasdclick.1764:

That’s the thing… The nerf didn’t actually have a drastic effect on the maximum output of grenades over time. Within 1-3%. The big thing now is just getting the most out of your Sigils to bring you back up to the top. That 5% damage sigil? It actually evens out 15% of the 30% nerf.

Oh, so just because there are 3 grenades per attack, a 5% damage sigil increases the overall dmg output by 15%.
Do you realize how dumb that sounds?
By that logic, the grenades were nerfed by 90%!

Imo mortars need an increased range to say 2000-2500 meters to be effective. I see no reason to use it when I can throw grenades further (1500m vs 1400m) and be mobile in the process.

Personally though I think anet needs to scrap the mortars and give us a ballsita/catapault elite or an elite that compares to the stationary wpns used in the 3 dragon fights. It completely falls in line with what are class is and meant to be and we’d only be able to use it for a min or so thus imo it wouldn’t be game breaking. Limit it to outside use so as not be used in dungeons. Hell give it a 5 min cd and I’d be fine with it. throw in some uniqueness and make a different version for every race since an asura engineer would come up with something much different then a charr engineer for example.

Robique.8279:

Wasdclick.1764:

That’s the thing… The nerf didn’t actually have a drastic effect on the maximum output of grenades over time. Within 1-3%. The big thing now is just getting the most out of your Sigils to bring you back up to the top. That 5% damage sigil? It actually evens out 15% of the 30% nerf.

Oh, so just because there are 3 grenades per attack, a 5% damage sigil increases the overall dmg output by 15%.
Do you realize how dumb that sounds?
By that logic, the grenades were nerfed by 90%!

-Facepalm-

Now when did I say that that was my reasoning?

No, the 30% debuff was to ONE of your 5 skills. If you’re using all of your grenade types, as you should be, the 5% damage buff applies to all of them, where the 30% reduction only applies to one of them.

Without the 20% faster recharge trait, you’ll throw 36 regular grenades per minute, and 24 of the rest. I took rotations into mind when calculating total damage over time. Post patch total damage, including inherent conditions, was less than 30% less total damage. With the 5% Damage sigil, Post-Patch grenades went to 15% less total damage over time. With Cirt Might in a proper build, you could reach similar numbers to what was had before.

The 30% damage debuff was only insurmountable if you… Spammed Grenade 1. And if you were doing that, then you deserve the debuff, as the spammable “auto” attack (calm down, I am aware you can’t auto Grenade 1. I refer to your 1 key attack.) isn’t meant to be the only thing you do.

I encourage them for making it so Grenadiers can’t get away with spamming 1.

Wasdclick.1764:

Robique.8279:

Wasdclick.1764:

That’s the thing… The nerf didn’t actually have a drastic effect on the maximum output of grenades over time. Within 1-3%. The big thing now is just getting the most out of your Sigils to bring you back up to the top. That 5% damage sigil? It actually evens out 15% of the 30% nerf.

Oh, so just because there are 3 grenades per attack, a 5% damage sigil increases the overall dmg output by 15%.
Do you realize how dumb that sounds?
By that logic, the grenades were nerfed by 90%!

-Facepalm-

Now when did I say that that was my reasoning?

No, the 30% debuff was to ONE of your 5 skills. If you’re using all of your grenade types, as you should be, the 5% damage buff applies to all of them, where the 30% reduction only applies to one of them.

Without the 20% faster recharge trait, you’ll throw 36 regular grenades per minute, and 24 of the rest. I took rotations into mind when calculating total damage over time. Post patch total damage, including inherent conditions, was less than 30% less total damage. With the 5% Damage sigil, Post-Patch grenades went to 15% less total damage over time. With Cirt Might in a proper build, you could reach similar numbers to what was had before.

The 30% damage debuff was only insurmountable if you… Spammed Grenade 1. And if you were doing that, then you deserve the debuff, as the spammable “auto” attack (calm down, I am aware you can’t auto Grenade 1. I refer to your 1 key attack.) isn’t meant to be the only thing you do.

I encourage them for making it so Grenadiers can’t get away with spamming 1.

Your math doesn’t work and the logic is missing. That is what he is saying. If each grenade was buffed by 5% then it is still a 25% nerf. By your logic each grenade shared the 30% nerf and each grenade was nerfed 10% each that is not how you add it up doesn’t work.

No one only spammed 1 seriously do you even play an engineer?

The idea was (and still is) to spam 1 until the other cooldowns were up, so shrapnel would get tossed a lot (fast cooldown), freeze and blind when needed (freeze was good damage and spread anyway), and poison on the blue moon that it was finally available again. Also barrage, because there is never a case when barrage isn’t the most useful grenade ability available (excluding underwater >_>).

But while waiting for cooldowns you were either spamming 1 or switching to the rifle because the target was moving around too much to get a circle under. What many people now feel is that they’re better off switching to the rifle regardless of the target unless they specifically want to stack vulnerability, and both options feel mediocre compared to what they can do on other classes.

I hope this changes when stats begin to effect kits, but even I will admit it is positively DEMORALIZING to have to throw 16-18 grenade #1 (that’s 42-54 actual grenade hits) in order to kill a single Risen Thrall.

Wasdclick

Per minute…
2 Poison
3 Freeze
6 Flash
12 Shrap
36 Reg

Before (Grenades PvE)
18.00 Reg
0.00 Flash
0.00 Poison
1.50 Freeze
6.60 Shrap
26.10 Total

Before (Grenades PvP)
16.20 Reg
0.00 Flash
0.00 Poison
1.35 Freeze
5.40 Shrap
21.95 Total

After with 5% damage buffn from MH Sigil
12.47 Reg
6.93 Shrap
0.63 Flash
1.58 Freeze
0.42 Poison
22.03 Total

Since people are looking into my logic here. Remember that I am talking about damage over an infinite period of time.

What you’re looking at are the effective damage Coefficients for each individual grenade attack over 1 minute. This doesn’t account for condition damage, or base damage.

You’ll see that now, with the 5% Damage sigil working for the Grenade kit, that the damage is minimally better over time than it was After the 10-15-15% PvP nerf. So yeah… That 5% sigil does a lot of work when we’re talking about an extended battle. The burst damage is still hurt, but the overall DPS is quite salvageable.