Guild Wars 2

No, this is not a joke topic.

Various people are insisting Flamethrower is the highest DPS option for Engineers, and recommending it to new Engineers in PvE.

As an Engineer main myself, I’m curious about this claim, since it is misleading a lot of players. Is actually true or not?

The Flamethrower build in question:

10-30-0-30

Traits=
Explosives: IV
Firearms: V, VIII, XI

Armor: Berserker, Rune of Strength

The persons in question, claim that they are able to maintain a permanent stack of 20 Might, and there for with the addition of Modified Ammunition, Deadly Mixture, Juggernaut, and HGH, Flamethrower Autoattack is superior to Bomb-based builds with Static Discharge for DPS.

Is this true? My hypothesis is that this claim is false, due to factors of slower attack speed, lower overall damage, and the trait setup.

In order to compare, let’s assume both build setups are using Rune of Strength.

For Flamethrower:
Firstly, the persons claim because Flamethrower has permanent 20 stacks of might due to HGH and Juggernaut, and 10 in Explosives, that is equal to a permanent 600 Power.
Secondly, they claim Deadly Mixture+Modified Ammunition leads to higher buffs than that of Bombs build.

But what about Bomb based builds?
30-30-0-0-10

Traits=
Explosives: IV, VII, XIII
Firearms: V, IX, XI
Tools: II

Armor: Berserker, Rune of Strength

Firstly, the idea is to stack perma-might using Big Ol’ Bomb, Detonate Rifle Turret, Detonate Healing Turret, with optional 3rd utility (in this case, Grenade Kit for Grenade Barrage). Because we have 3x blast finishers, we can assume perma 9 stacks of might, giving us +225 Power. Factoring in the addition 20 points into Explosives, let’s assume perma +525 power.
Secondly, for damage buffs, we have Explosive Powder, Modified Ammunition, Rifle Mod, Static Discharge, and Synaptic Overload.

In order to test, I am counting how many seconds it takes to kill a level 80 Rams inside Frostgorge Sound, and how much damage I deal.

Luckily, due to the flamthrower bug, it is easy to tell how much damage I deal. I began with Flame Blast, dealing with 1.9k+4k damage, and my Flame Jet dealt a total of 7k damage. It took a total of 6 seconds to kill the ram, dealing a total of 12k damage to kill it.

Bombs, on the other hand, are harder to measure. There for, I will limit my variables only to Surprise Shot+Static Discharge, and Bomb Auto attack. Results took only an average of 5.2 seconds to kill the longhorn ram. Note the lack of Big Ol’ Bomb and other factors into this test, and the additional utility slot without pressure from HGH.

However, what’s important, is that even without burst skills, Bomb Autoattack and Surprise Shot+Static Discharge STILL killed the Longhorn Ram faster than a traited Flamethrower with a full bar dedicated to HGH.

So what if we factor in burst skills and traits? It took only 2 seconds to kill the Longhorn Ram…

What do you think? Is Flamethrower Autoattack REALLY the highest autoattack damage? I am skeptical. But if anyone has the calculations, PLEASE try and prove me wrong.

Welp, I’m running a FT build in PvE, but more out of facerolling reasons than actual dmg behind it. It’s nice for group-buffing tho, but definitively not in the above described setup.

What i run:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fdAQFAUlUUpWr1UxqKseNSdBNqvA6AUguK6iEjQD-TBCEABJcBASZ/htUCykyPFV/pDNEA8AAcTHQAAEgJOxAwEn4En4EnYTciTciTciDAKA-e

- stacks might up to 25 easily and stays there during combat
- gives 6 seconds of fury to the group and to me permanently (proc of elixier B )
- around 9-12 stacks of might to the group permanently (depending on me blasting all turrets in napalm or not)
DMG:
Flamejet: 3.5-6k per autohit (1.75-3k dps)
Flameblast: 5-10k (1.5-3k on direct hit / 3.5-7k on blast) (1.25-2.5k dps)
Blunderbus: 3-6k (300-600 dps)
Jumping Shot: 6-12k (1.5-3k on intial hit / 4.5-9k on landing) (300-600 dps)
Static discharge: 1.5-3k per hit / 2hits per target max (since the different cd’s of the toolbelt skills its dps is hard to determine, but lets overdo it a bit so nobody can complain about too low dps from it: 2x rifle cd: 300-600 dps

Together that are 7.3k dps, given that most of this stuff crits, which is a valid expectation, based on 43% base crit-chance + perma-fury.

Bombkit auto with appropriate traits: stable 4k (8k dps)
Nades auto with appropriate traits: stable 3k (6k dps) (actually lower than FT overall dmg, but not considering #2 and #4 of nades in the comparison, which would change the outcome in favor towards nades. For actual proof, test it yourself. 6.34am here^^)

Welp, as one can see, the FT is still weaker than nades or bombkit, but reaches reasonable overall dmg-output now, which makes a FT group-supporter a considerable option for PvE content. Still the claim that it outperforms all other kits is incorrect as displayed above.

Arantheal.7396:

DMG:
Flamejet: 3.5-6k per autohit (1.75-3k dps)
Flameblast: 5-10k (1.5-3k on direct hit / 3.5-7k on blast) (1.25-2.5k dps)
Blunderbus: 3-6k (300-600 dps)
Jumping Shot: 6-12k (1.5-3k on intial hit / 4.5-9k on landing) (300-600 dps)
Static discharge: 1.5-3k per hit / 2hits per target max (since the different cd’s of the toolbelt skills its dps is hard to determine, but lets overdo it a bit so nobody can complain about too low dps from it: 2x rifle cd: 300-600 dps

Together that are 7.3k dps, given that most of this stuff crits, which is a valid expectation, based on 43% base crit-chance + perma-fury.

You’re calculating dps wrong. All those skills (minus some toolbelt/SD procs) have cast times and aftercasts. Any 30/30/0/0/10 build can use the same rifle/SD bursts you can, so the only difference is in autoattacks and flameblast. Grenade builds use shrapnel grenade and freeze grenade as well on cooldown, which have higher coefficients as well. In a comparison of autoattacks, flamethrower will always lose— its skill coefficient is just too low. It also has a maximum of 3 targets versus 5 on bomb kit and for every grenade. Either the coefficient needs to be raised or the channel length needs to be adjusted to make flamethrower worth using in PvE.

Flamethrower? Highest dps? No
It isn’t and never has been better than the other direct damage kits (bombs and grenades) for doing damage.
Here’s exactly what I run
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fdMQJAqelUUpdrlYxPLseNSaBNq0A6M8i6+5GEgnC-TxhFwADegAAUCaU5HjTEgM1fGt/wF9EBAOAY6AhAUsBA-e
You’ll have might covered (9-12 stacks for the team and an easy 20+ for yourself) just through BoB, Magnetic inversion, acid bomb and sigils/runes.
No need for HGH, no need for blasting turrets. It’s quick, easy and your team will love you for it. You might even get some of them to re-roll as an engineer.

I just checked in game and strength runes are now over 11g per rune. Rather expensive, but an alternative there are aristocracy runes from CM if you have the tokens.

Bullkitten. Flamethrower has very low dps compared to bombs or granades.
Flamejet has almost 2,5 sec casting time and you can’t cast abilities while channeling.
People are saying “look i hit it for 5k from auto-attack!”. Well you hit 5k every 2,5 seconds, which is 2k dps. Single warrior axe chop from auto attack deal more damage.

Wanna be usefull in PvE ? Use granades or bombs. I’m tiried P/P 0 kit engineers and flamethrower ones saying they are dealing “tons of damage” when they actually doesn’t do anything :/
And becouse of that players that doesn’t play engineer think that engineer is weak.

@sins

good job with reading only half of my post.
I come to the same conclusion like you.

@Miltek
same as Sins.
I already displayed that the dps on the auto is very low, it’s the function as group-buffer via ET that makes this build viable. The FT is just the logical choice since deadly mixtures is on its way.

@Arantheal
FT Group buffing suckz compared to elementalist or warrior.

It has High DPS I think

@jknrich
It doesn’t.
Becouse there’s bug when your damage display keep adding when you use channeling skills.
You can even show 49k+ at it won’t prove nothing. Only first cast of Firejet shows real damage in numbers

For what it’s worth, one of the most-dedicated FT engis, Phineas Poe, has given-up on FT in favor of bomb kit, even after the latest patch. He’s done a ton of testing and I’m sure he wouldn’t have switched if the DPS were in favor of FT.

Months back there were a few really active threads about possible buffs to FT kit, unfortunately it seems ANet didn’t think we were onto something….

I’m not saying FT is bad or useless, I’m just saying that top-DPS is far from the case. Just try zerk nades and see….

I dont think flamethrower has the highest dps on itself as a kit. But when it comes to using flame wall to stack about 12-15 stacks of might for your entire party (dungeon runs). And using the skill 2 as much you can, and swapping to rifle for jumpshot every now and then.. Then the DPS is pretty nice. I would advice higher boon duration/might duration runes though. Looking at it that way, you do have more dps.
Thing is that other classes have easier might stacking ways for your team, or similair. Guardian only needs his staff for 12 stacks of might (lol) We need at least 2 skill slots and use combo finishers. And if more ppl have the same idea, your max is still 25 stacks of might so.. yea. Also often i get my fire wall messed up because other ppl use diffrent auras over them, and you wont get the might stacks but retaliation instead… lol

I know its a bug. Im messing.

Arantheal.7396:

@sins

good job with reading only half of my post.
I come to the same conclusion like you.

@Miltek
same as Sins.
I already displayed that the dps on the auto is very low, it’s the function as group-buffer via ET that makes this build viable. The FT is just the logical choice since deadly mixtures is on its way.

My fault was with your calculation of DPS for flamethrower. You can’t use all your burst skills off cooldown and still use FT autoattack at the same time(excluding surprise shot). The rest of my post was a response to the topic in general. Sorry if that wasn’t clear.

Grenix.1576:

I dont think flamethrower has the highest dps on itself as a kit. But when it comes to using flame wall to stack about 12-15 stacks of might for your entire party (dungeon runs). And using the skill 2 as much you can, and swapping to rifle for jumpshot every now and then.. Then the DPS is pretty nice. I would advice higher boon duration/might duration runes though. Looking at it that way, you do have more dps.
Thing is that other classes have easier might stacking ways for your team, or similair. Guardian only needs his staff for 12 stacks of might (lol) We need at least 2 skill slots and use combo finishers. And if more ppl have the same idea, your max is still 25 stacks of might so.. yea. Also often i get my fire wall messed up because other ppl use diffrent auras over them, and you wont get the might stacks but retaliation instead… lol

You can just as well stack might with the bomb kit, if not better, as the field is much easier for allies to hit (480 diameter cirlce vs. a thin line).
The fire field uptime is also comparable: 10s every 24s for FT (41.7%) or 3s every 8s for BK (37.5%, both with cooldown traits).
And the bomb kit even comes with another blast finisher.

FT comes with a lot utility for PvP but really has no place in PvE, except if you want to tank up (e.g. dredge fractal) or for tagging mobs in world events.

FT highest dps? LOL just LOL:-D

Hello frands! Vee Wee here #1 Engi NA and world first rank 80!

Flamethrower is not the highest DPS kit! However, if you like the kit, use it in PvE! PvE is so easy it doesn’t matter what you use! All builds and all kits are viable!

Wahoo! Bye frands!

Flame jet and fragmentation shot damage are roughly equivalent damage per second.

I guess pistol autoattack needs to be nerfed now.

Op flamethrower dps…

errata.9078:

For what it’s worth, one of the most-dedicated FT engis, Phineas Poe, has given-up on FT in favor of bomb kit, even after the latest patch. He’s done a ton of testing and I’m sure he wouldn’t have switched if the DPS were in favor of FT.

Months back there were a few really active threads about possible buffs to FT kit, unfortunately it seems ANet didn’t think we were onto something….

I’m not saying FT is bad or useless, I’m just saying that top-DPS is far from the case. Just try zerk nades and see….

I think Phineas has known that the FT is crap DPS for a long time now. I remember getting into a thing about it with him like more than a year ago and he stuck with it, so I don’t think he really cares about DPS much if at all.

He doesn’t really seem like the “lol hardcore DPS speedclear” type and more of the “i play how i want stop being elitist” type so if even he’s dropped FT, that’s pretty much all you ened to know about how crap the DPS is.

Also check the ranger forums for my thread about people recommending bearbow to new players as a “meta” build, there’s no need to do a big analysis over every kittened thing some random in mapchat says. Just correct/flame/troll them as much as you’re motivated to and then move on.

its a indirekt comparison FT vs Bombs.
In the very beginning you can see the dmg against a immortal golem.
—> that means you can test your built direktly against this one by looking at the time.

ib4 there is not a perfekt FT built. its just the best built i found.
Like i sayed, test yourself against it and if your built is better plz post your time + built ;-)