Nerf grenade damage, but...

Nerf grenade damage, but...

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Posted by: Montgomery.1986

Montgomery.1986

Nerf grenade damage by 33%, but add the third grenade in for those without the trait (and possibly narrow the spread.) Then add in the 33% with the Grenadier trait and the extra distance.

Grenadier is one of the best traits that we have, as far as damage is concerned, it is a huge jump in damage. Not only does it increase damage by 50% and increase range, the additional AoE grants extra chances to crit/deal bleeding/cause vulnerability etc. If a build does not include grenadier, it is doing itself a big disservice dps wise. This narrows the variety of builds because it is so powerful.

By adding a third grenade and diminishing the damage, we keep dps constant, but normalize the added damage from the extra crit/damage/vulnerability and it makes choosing a grenade kit more attractive to those who do not choose to take the Grenadier trait. Those who choose the Grenadier trait experience no change.

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Posted by: QQing.3089

QQing.3089

The first 33% nerf to grenade damage wasn’t enough for you ?

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Posted by: Montgomery.1986

Montgomery.1986

It’s not a nerf, because you add the extra grenade in. It’s a buff for those who don’t have the Grenadier trait, and neutral if you do.

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Posted by: Penguin.5197

Penguin.5197

What he wants is a transfer of power not a nerf

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Posted by: Manuhell.2759

Manuhell.2759

Something that wouldn’t be exactly bad – untraited grenades are quite lackluster. On the other side you would take more damage via retaliation than before with untraited grenades, while dealing the same damage…

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Posted by: Penguin.5197

Penguin.5197

Something that wouldn’t be exactly bad – untraited grenades are quite lackluster. On the other side you would take more damage via retaliation than before with untraited grenades, while dealing the same damage…

But be getting more chance to proc trait effects

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Posted by: Manuhell.2759

Manuhell.2759

Something that wouldn’t be exactly bad – untraited grenades are quite lackluster. On the other side you would take more damage via retaliation than before with untraited grenades, while dealing the same damage…

But be getting more chance to proc trait effects

That’s true as well. There would be both good and bad aftereffects, basically.

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Posted by: Aberrant.6749

Aberrant.6749

Errr… ‘cause retaliation doesn’t mess over my eng enough as it is in wvw?

Tarnished Coast
Salvage 4 Profit + MF Guide – http://tinyurl.com/l8ff6pa

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Posted by: Montgomery.1986

Montgomery.1986

I would argue that if you’re taking that much retaliation damage, you should switch to a different kit.

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Posted by: Aberrant.6749

Aberrant.6749

I would argue that if you’re taking that much retaliation damage, you should switch to a different kit.

Dude… even with just piercing pistols I take a TON of retal dmg. I can deal with it… but 4 nades would just add to that problem with no real solution to anything. I don’t see anyone complaining about 2 nade eng’s… or nade eng’s at frekkin’ all. If it’s not broke, don’t try to fix it.

Tarnished Coast
Salvage 4 Profit + MF Guide – http://tinyurl.com/l8ff6pa

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Posted by: MentalPause.9183

MentalPause.9183

I would argue that if you’re taking that much retaliation damage, you should switch to a different kit.

Dude… even with just piercing pistols I take a TON of retal dmg. I can deal with it… but 4 nades would just add to that problem with no real solution to anything. I don’t see anyone complaining about 2 nade eng’s… or nade eng’s at frekkin’ all. If it’s not broke, don’t try to fix it.

He’s not suggesting a fourth grenade. He’s suggesting that without the trait we have three and reduced damage, with the trait we get the damage back and get the extra range.

Grenadier would read: Deal 33% more damage with grenades and they can now be thrown 25% farther.

Fort Aspenwood WvW’er
Officer of Bloodwork [RED] http://bloodwork.boards.net/thread/145/interested-joining-red

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Posted by: Aberrant.6749

Aberrant.6749

I would argue that if you’re taking that much retaliation damage, you should switch to a different kit.

Dude… even with just piercing pistols I take a TON of retal dmg. I can deal with it… but 4 nades would just add to that problem with no real solution to anything. I don’t see anyone complaining about 2 nade eng’s… or nade eng’s at frekkin’ all. If it’s not broke, don’t try to fix it.

He’s not suggesting a fourth grenade. He’s suggesting that without the trait we have three and reduced damage, with the trait we get the damage back and get the extra range.

Grenadier would read: Deal 33% more damage with grenades and they can now be thrown 25% farther.

Ahhhhh ic ic. Just woke up. My reading skills are fail right now. Thank you for clarifying xD

Tarnished Coast
Salvage 4 Profit + MF Guide – http://tinyurl.com/l8ff6pa

(edited by Aberrant.6749)

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Posted by: Montgomery.1986

Montgomery.1986

I would argue that if you’re taking that much retaliation damage, you should switch to a different kit.

Dude… even with just piercing pistols I take a TON of retal dmg. I can deal with it… but 4 nades would just add to that problem with no real solution to anything. I don’t see anyone complaining about 2 nade eng’s… or nade eng’s at frekkin’ all. If it’s not broke, don’t try to fix it.

The thing with piercing pistols is that the auto attack explodes for every target you hit. If you fire into a zerg, you’ll likely hit more than 3 targets causing more than 3 explosions, causing far more retaliation than 3 grenades. If you’re piercing less than that, and you’re dying from retaliation, you need to get more survivability or switch to a single target.

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Posted by: MentalPause.9183

MentalPause.9183

@ Aberrant: No problem, have some coffee.

Also: What Montgomery said above me. As an engineer player we all know that retaliation is probably the single best Boon against so many of our builds due to their AoE nature. Its a weakness and we need to either deal with it, or work around it. Regeneration helps a lot, boon stripping is good too (Even though Throw Mine is pretty lackluster).

@ Montgomery: I think I like this idea, I’m still on the fence though. Just curious what other people think.

Fort Aspenwood WvW’er
Officer of Bloodwork [RED] http://bloodwork.boards.net/thread/145/interested-joining-red

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Posted by: Mif.3471

Mif.3471

Just remove the Grenadier trait and make it baseline.

Having a required trait to make a kit viable is terrible design.

Tarnished Coast | Best cookies in all of Tyria

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Posted by: Manuhell.2759

Manuhell.2759

Imho, our traits – especially grandmaster ones – should make kits more versatile, not simply power them up. Like, modifying kits to give them a different usage, maybe changing the toolbelt in a sort of “toggle modification” when the related trait is acquired.

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Posted by: WIGZ.8245

WIGZ.8245

If anything, grenade damage needs to be buffed back up.

[BT] Wigz – Blackgate – 80 Engineer & Warrior
http://blacktalons.guildlaunch.com/

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Posted by: google.3709

google.3709

I actually like the idea alot, nades without granadier just feels weird… but you don’t always want to spend those 30 points on explosives

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Posted by: ukuni.8745

ukuni.8745

id like to be able to run nades without having to trait for them however condition nades are really powerful and where they lack is the availability for more surviveability traits, for example think about trying to fight a hgh nader that had all the benefits of tank from all the other traits or the extra ability to inflict conditions and other useful stuff by putting more points into firearms, us engis would love it we would be killing machines but im not sure its the best idea around

i think it would be a more optimal option to make the gm trait also improve the projectile speed of nades and fuse timer reduction on bombs since a issue with useing both bombs and nades is, actually getting them to hit when you want them to, not that i find it an issue but more of a method of play, i think that change would reward us alot better for investing 30 points into nades/bombs without making us over powered

Still Winning And Grinning (Swag)
Ukune – Engineer of Maguuma
Check me out on YouTube

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Posted by: Lightsbane.9012

Lightsbane.9012

It’s not a nerf, because you add the extra grenade in. It’s a buff for those who don’t have the Grenadier trait, and neutral if you do.

the FIRST nerf to grenade damage is what he said. he’s not calling your idea a nerf. which in essence is what it really is. means anyone who wants the full damage of grenades to get the trait. and knowing anet, 3 grenades untraited would mean about ~150 damage per grenade.

As quick as the Valkyries ride,
As true as Odin’s spear flies,
There is nowhere to hide.

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Posted by: Montgomery.1986

Montgomery.1986

It’s not a nerf, because you add the extra grenade in. It’s a buff for those who don’t have the Grenadier trait, and neutral if you do.

the FIRST nerf to grenade damage is what he said. he’s not calling your idea a nerf. which in essence is what it really is. means anyone who wants the full damage of grenades to get the trait. and knowing anet, 3 grenades untraited would mean about ~150 damage per grenade.

Huh? Did you even read what I wrote?

He said:

“The first 33% nerf to grenade damage wasn’t enough for you ?”

Implying that there was a nerf that I didn’t think was enough and this idea is a further nerf.

And no, it is not a nerf. I said, add a grenade and drop the damage by 33%. If you have 2 grenades at 100%, you’ll get (2×100%=) 200% damage total. If you have 3 grenades at 67% you would actually have (3×67%=)201% damage total. So it’s even a tiny, tiny buff in damage. This is BEFORE ANY TRAITS ARE CHOSEN. When you add the trait that I explained would be +33% damage, you get 3 grenades at 100% (67, the new damage level + 33), 3×100% = 300%. JUST AS IT CURRENTLY IS. Where are you getting this 150 damage from?

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Posted by: Knox.8962

Knox.8962

Technically, you’d still have the trait saying “increase grenade damage by 50%” in order to get back to where you are. That trait would be slightly less mandatory because it wouldn’t increase the proc chances like the current one does, but it would still be a 50% bump in raw direct damage from the untraited version.

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Posted by: Rozbuska.5263

Rozbuska.5263

If you wanne nerf nades their speed must be increased by 50% at least

Tekkit Mojo – Engineer
Tekkit’s Workshop

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Posted by: Yamsandjams.3267

Yamsandjams.3267

Imho, our traits – especially grandmaster ones – should make kits more versatile, not simply power them up. Like, modifying kits to give them a different usage, maybe changing the toolbelt in a sort of “toggle modification” when the related trait is acquired.

While I agree it would make the trait more boring, I think such a change would make it more balanced. The difference in the grenade kit is extremely drastic when using grenadier, so it makes using it untraited in a build a much weaker choice. In fact, I don’t know of any grenade builds that don’t use grenadier. This ties you into 30 explosives, so the variety of builds suffers greatly. In this way, it’s sort of similar to the deadly mixture trait that just boosts the damage on elixir gun and flamethrower. However, you’d still have the range boost, so that does increase the utility in a way.

My main concern to this proposed change is that it will empower condition builds, unless the OP also meant that the condition damage should be reduced without grenadier being taken. Unfortunately, I don’t believe there’s any mechanic in the game that allows traits to apply percentage based increases or decrease to condition damage. In general, when you see something like “+33% damage”, that only applies to the direct damage, and not the condition damage.

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Posted by: Deniara Devious.3948

Deniara Devious.3948

Nerf grenade damage by 33%, but add the third grenade in for those without the trait (and possibly narrow the spread.) Then add in the 33% with the Grenadier trait and the extra distance.

Grenadier is one of the best traits that we have, as far as damage is concerned, it is a huge jump in damage. Not only does it increase damage by 50% and increase range, the additional AoE grants extra chances to crit/deal bleeding/cause vulnerability etc. If a build does not include grenadier, it is doing itself a big disservice dps wise. This narrows the variety of builds because it is so powerful.

By adding a third grenade and diminishing the damage, we keep dps constant, but normalize the added damage from the extra crit/damage/vulnerability and it makes choosing a grenade kit more attractive to those who do not choose to take the Grenadier trait. Those who choose the Grenadier trait experience no change.

Let’s do the math, assuming original grenade damage is 100. Then nerf it by 33%. We get 66. Then according to your idea the grandmaster trait buffs it 33%. We get a total of 1.33*0.66 = 0.8778 original damage, which is just 87.

In other words you are asking a 13% damage nerf with the grandmaster trait. A big NO from me.

You would need +50% damage buff in the grandmaster trait to keep the damage the same. (0.66*1.5 = 1.0)

For comparison power necro, berserker thief and greatsword / axe warrior still do better dps than it is possible the grenade kit. I haven’t yet tested with a full glass cannon ranger and elementalist, but I have a hunch that full glass ranger single target dps is better than anything engineer can dish (> 10k crits with auto attack are confirmed).

Deniara / Ayna – I want the original WvWvW maps back – Desolation [EU]

(edited by Deniara Devious.3948)

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Posted by: Yamsandjams.3267

Yamsandjams.3267

Nerf grenade damage by 33%, but add the third grenade in for those without the trait (and possibly narrow the spread.) Then add in the 33% with the Grenadier trait and the extra distance.

Grenadier is one of the best traits that we have, as far as damage is concerned, it is a huge jump in damage. Not only does it increase damage by 50% and increase range, the additional AoE grants extra chances to crit/deal bleeding/cause vulnerability etc. If a build does not include grenadier, it is doing itself a big disservice dps wise. This narrows the variety of builds because it is so powerful.

By adding a third grenade and diminishing the damage, we keep dps constant, but normalize the added damage from the extra crit/damage/vulnerability and it makes choosing a grenade kit more attractive to those who do not choose to take the Grenadier trait. Those who choose the Grenadier trait experience no change.

Let’s do the math, assuming original grenade damage is 100. Then nerf it by 33%. We get 66. Then according to your idea the grandmaster trait buffs it 33%. We get a total of 1.33*0.66 = 0.8778 original damage, which is just 87.

In other words you are asking a 13% damage nerf with the grandmaster trait. A big NO from me.

You would need +50% damage buff in the grandmaster trait to keep the damage the same. (0.66*1.5 = 1.0)

For comparison power necro, berserker thief and greatsword / axe warrior still do better dps than it is possible the grenade kit. I haven’t yet tested with a full glass cannon ranger and elementalist, but I have a hunch that full glass ranger single target dps is better than anything engineer can dish (> 10k crits with auto attack are confirmed).

I believe that’s how the OP intended the math to work out, they just didn’t realize that the way it was stated was not correct.

Not sure why you bring up the profession comparisons, but there’s some key things that were overlooked. Some of those that you stated are melee builds without 1500 range attacks, and the ranger is single target whereas the engineer is AoE. I’m not as familiar with necros, but I don’t believe they have that level of AoE damage potential at a 1500 range.

I also assume the OP meant to apply the damage change to condition damage as well, although it was explicitly stated. The grenade kit is nice in that it can work with both power or condition damage.

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Posted by: Advent Leader.1083

Advent Leader.1083

The thing about grenadier is that more grenades, even though it has lesser damage, ups the chance of condi proccing, which, in turn, is one of the greatest issue of grenades – condi proccing.

Having 25 in firearms (with the proposed changes) simply means that untraited grenades deal 3 stacks of vulne – not to mention increased chances directly from the bleed procs if the bleed proc is taken.

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Posted by: Yamsandjams.3267

Yamsandjams.3267

The thing about grenadier is that more grenades, even though it has lesser damage, ups the chance of condi proccing, which, in turn, is one of the greatest issue of grenades – condi proccing.

Having 25 in firearms (with the proposed changes) simply means that untraited grenades deal 3 stacks of vulne – not to mention increased chances directly from the bleed procs if the bleed proc is taken.

Well, that vulnerability comes with 25 in explosives, which is nearly he amount of investment required for grenadier anyways. I don’t think the increased chance for shrapnel would be that significant, especially since your condition duration would be directly lower from not taking as many points into explosives, but they would possibly have to reduce the base duration of the condition skills in the grenades in order to compensate.

An alternative change would be to keep the damage of untraited grenades the same, have grenadier boost damage (or do something else that makes it stronger), but remove the third grenade from grenadier. The loss of condi procs in this case might be a bit concerning though.

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Posted by: Deniara Devious.3948

Deniara Devious.3948

I believe that’s how the OP intended the math to work out, they just didn’t realize that the way it was stated was not correct.

Not sure why you bring up the profession comparisons, but there’s some key things that were overlooked. Some of those that you stated are melee builds without 1500 range attacks, and the ranger is single target whereas the engineer is AoE. I’m not as familiar with necros, but I don’t believe they have that level of AoE damage potential at a 1500 range.

I think the 1500 range of grenadier is balanced, because grenades travel so slowly. E.g. eagle eyes + ranger long bow and harpoon gun are much faster and easier to hit at 1500 range. I find that grenades are most effective at short range, then you can make even all the 8 grenades from the grenade barrage to hit the same target. Engineer should be compared to ranger, because both have same health and armor. Ranger needs to use a 20 point trait (eagle eyes) to get 1500 range for both underwater (harpoon gun) and above water (long bow). Pet leash seems to be longer than that, so the actual range with pet is even more. Engineer has more utility, but I feel that my ranger does more single target dps with similar gear.

I play myself a power necro with wells, staff and axe. Staff is only 1200 range, but with greater mark traits it is 240 radius AoE skills (bigger radius than grenades) and unblockable. And of course I use the deathshroud. Now you can get 100% crit chance with it, meaning tons of damage, including might stacking. Axe #1 and #2 are single target 600 range, but dish out really huge damage. Same for necro mainhand dagger. You can do about 10k against low armor in a second using necro dagger #1 as its attack speed is so fast. Here is a good video, which is explains how power necro works:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cG5fqtiP2x0

Deniara / Ayna – I want the original WvWvW maps back – Desolation [EU]

(edited by Deniara Devious.3948)

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Posted by: Montgomery.1986

Montgomery.1986

Let’s do the math, assuming original grenade damage is 100. Then nerf it by 33%. We get 66. Then according to your idea the grandmaster trait buffs it 33%. We get a total of 1.33*0.66 = 0.8778 original damage, which is just 87.

In other words you are asking a 13% damage nerf with the grandmaster trait. A big NO from me.

You would need +50% damage buff in the grandmaster trait to keep the damage the same. (0.66*1.5 = 1.0)

For comparison power necro, berserker thief and greatsword / axe warrior still do better dps than it is possible the grenade kit. I haven’t yet tested with a full glass cannon ranger and elementalist, but I have a hunch that full glass ranger single target dps is better than anything engineer can dish (> 10k crits with auto attack are confirmed).

Okay, I can see where my statements were confusing. If you read the OP, I was using “the 33% damage” as a concept to indicate that specific chunk of damage, not so much as part of a mathematical function. For example, if grenade damage currently is 100%, I’d say nerf it by X amount (which equals 33% of the current damage.) Add the grenade. Then with the Grenadier trait add X back in.

So yes, you are correct, the Grandmaster trait would say “Increase damage by 50%…”

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Posted by: Montgomery.1986

Montgomery.1986

While I agree it would make the trait more boring, I think such a change would make it more balanced. The difference in the grenade kit is extremely drastic when using grenadier, so it makes using it untraited in a build a much weaker choice. In fact, I don’t know of any grenade builds that don’t use grenadier. This ties you into 30 explosives, so the variety of builds suffers greatly. In this way, it’s sort of similar to the deadly mixture trait that just boosts the damage on elixir gun and flamethrower. However, you’d still have the range boost, so that does increase the utility in a way.

My main concern to this proposed change is that it will empower condition builds, unless the OP also meant that the condition damage should be reduced without grenadier being taken. Unfortunately, I don’t believe there’s any mechanic in the game that allows traits to apply percentage based increases or decrease to condition damage. In general, when you see something like “+33% damage”, that only applies to the direct damage, and not the condition damage.

Do you mean the added conditions that come from the extra grenade? That means the current Grenadier trait empowers condition builds. So not only do you get the +300 range, the 50% increase in straight damage, the added chance to proc crit/bleed/vulnerability/sigils, you also get the added conditions on the specific grenades themselves. That’s even more reason to bring the extra grenade down to the untraited level, because the sheer difference in power of traited vs untraited pressures engineers to take this one ability. I’d even say a damage buff to untraited grenades while keeping the Grenadier trait the same would be in order, but most people would find this unreasonable.

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Posted by: Terrahero.9358

Terrahero.9358

I would argue that if you’re taking that much retaliation damage, you should switch to a different kit.

Oh god this argument again.

You play an Engineer right?

Please point me to the weapon and or kit that DOESNT consistent mostly of AoE and/or fast-hitting attacks.

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Posted by: Penguin.5197

Penguin.5197

I would argue that if you’re taking that much retaliation damage, you should switch to a different kit.

Oh god this argument again.

You play an Engineer right?

Please point me to the weapon and or kit that DOESNT consistent mostly of AoE and/or fast-hitting attacks.

Toolkit :P

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Posted by: tom.7468

tom.7468

Whats the point of this? its grandmaster trait and if this happens i wont use my engi at all same with last patch haven’t used my ranger at all after that.

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Posted by: DelOnasi.6051

DelOnasi.6051

Seconded.

For the posts claiming this is a nerf: this would keep grenade DPS the same with the grenadier trait, and increase grendade DPS without the grenadier trait.

Engineer builds are quite pigeonholed into grenadier right now, which is unfortunate, and this idea is one small step to remedying one of the underlying causes.

Dungeon Master ~ Litter of Lions [Arch] Admin ~ Devona’s Rest

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Posted by: Montgomery.1986

Montgomery.1986

I would argue that if you’re taking that much retaliation damage, you should switch to a different kit.

Oh god this argument again.

You play an Engineer right?

Please point me to the weapon and or kit that DOESNT consistent mostly of AoE and/or fast-hitting attacks.

The point that the poster was arguing was that 3 grenades (or in actuality, he was thinking 4 grenades if you read through) was way too much retaliation damage. But 2 grenades was just fine. So with that in mind, Rifle, Toolkit, Bomb, Elixir gun would produce less “hit rate.” If a grenade can hit 5 people, then 2 grenades hits 10 times, with a cast time of 0.5 seconds, so if you’re point blank or in the cycle of throwing grenades, they will be hitting 20 targets per second. Bombs also have a 0.5 second cast time, ignoring the fuse time, you would be hitting 10 targets per second, about half the amount. Hip shot would only pierce 5 people at most, and has a .75 second cast time, so it’s autoattack (8-9 hits/second) would be less than grenades and bombs. You could spam all your attacks, but they also have .25-.5 second cast times and have cooldowns associated with it. Toolkit auto attack hits at 0.5/0.5/1.0 seconds and hits 3 people at most. Giving 4.50 hits per second. All of it’s other attacks are slow so spam away. Tranquilizer dart fires at .75 seconds and hits a single target, you could also spam your attacks but the damage from Elixir gun is rather inconsequential and the number of hits from spamming every thing is similarly inconsequential (unless acid bomb doesn’t have a limit, then you could have like a hundred people sit on the thing and then you’d be right.)

So basically, don’t use Flamethrower autoattack or piercing pistol autoattack where you hit more than 3 people in a row and you’d be getting less retaliation damage than 3 grenades (ie 30 hits per second.)

(edited by Montgomery.1986)

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Posted by: Montgomery.1986

Montgomery.1986

Whats the point of this? its grandmaster trait and if this happens i wont use my engi at all same with last patch haven’t used my ranger at all after that.

Did you see the word nerf and just decide to post?

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Posted by: tom.7468

tom.7468

Whats the point of this? its grandmaster trait and if this happens i wont use my engi at all same with last patch haven’t used my ranger at all after that.

Did you see the word nerf and just decide to post?

so basically grenadier stay the same but without it you get 3 grenades too? at least they could change grenadier to adept trait then. it make no sense its grandmaster.

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Posted by: Montgomery.1986

Montgomery.1986

so basically grenadier stay the same but without it you get 3 grenades too? at least they could change grenadier to adept trait then. it make no sense its grandmaster.

What? Why? It’s already one of the most powerful traits in the whole game. If you spam grenades, which is a perfectly legitimate way of dealing a lot of damage (our best consistent damage of the game) Grenadier (either version) basically increases your total damage output by 50%. No other single trait of any class will give you that kind of bonus. On top of that, it increases the range of your attacks to 1500. The highest range of all skills. And you don’t want to take it because it’s a Grandmaster Trait?!

The whole idea behind this change is that the gap between traited vs non-traited grenade is HUGE (hint: you deal 50%+ more damage with the trait.) The non-traited grenade is anemic and flaccid. The traited grenade is powerful and one of our best damage dealers. The pressure to take Grenadier is huge, thus limiting the choices most engineers (who care about it) to a very small number of builds. Increasing the number of grenades for non-traited engineers VERY SLIGHTLY narrows the gap between the two. And you want to cry that non-traited engineers get a slight buff and go home and take your toys with you?!

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Posted by: Deniara Devious.3948

Deniara Devious.3948

Grenadier (either version) basically increases your total damage output by 50%. No other single trait of any class will give you that kind of bonus.

This necromancer grandmaster trait comes close:
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Deathly_Perception

It gives 50% greater chance for critical hits under death shroud. You can combo it with any long-lasting skill e.g. well of suffering to make each tick of the well have 100% crit chance.

Let’s assume the character has normally 50% crit chance and 110% crit damage. It would do 0.5*10.5*(1.5+1.1)=1.8 x damage. In death shroud 1*(1.5+1.1) = 2.6 x damage. That is a 2.6/1.8 = 44% damage increase. Underwater life blast can hit about 2k/hit, 900 range, a mere 1/2 s activation time and each life blast removes one condition and transfers it to the enemy! It can be traited to give one stack of might per blast, cause vulnerability and pierce.

I enjoy underwater combat a lot, one very good player called me “best EU underwater fighter” and in WvWvW I am called “lord of the lake”, but that is exaggeration. I am an old man with slow reflexes. I haven’t yet run against a good necromancer underwater, but when I do, I know I will be a lot of trouble if I get within range.

But back to the topic:
The +50% damage increase from grenades assumes that all those 3 grenades hit the same target. This rarely happens from >1000 range, unless the target is standing still. And even then at 1500 it often happens so that not all 3 grenades hit the target. Especially underwater where the grenades spread a lot.

Grenade barrage is by far the biggest damage skill of the kit, then followed by shrapnel grenade. Grenade barrage normally throws 6 grenades and with the grenadier trait it throws 8. All those 8 will hit the same only if the target is right next to engineer (basically engineer has disabled melee auto assist and inside enemy character model). That is only a 8/6 = 33% damage increase if all the 8 grenades hit. Then comes the traits: Incendiary Powder will trigger with just 1 grenade per 10 seconds. So the grenadier trait won’t synergize with this trait.

Summary: grenadier grandmaster trait is very powerful indeed, but in real life situations doesn’t give a +50% damage increase, about +33% is more close to truth.

Deniara / Ayna – I want the original WvWvW maps back – Desolation [EU]

(edited by Deniara Devious.3948)

Nerf grenade damage, but...

in Engineer

Posted by: Montgomery.1986

Montgomery.1986

This necromancer grandmaster trait comes close:
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Deathly_Perception

It gives 50% greater chance for critical hits under death shroud. You can combo it with any long-lasting skill e.g. well of suffering to make each tick of the well have 100% crit chance.

Let’s assume the character has normally 50% crit chance and 110% crit damage. It would do 0.5*10.5*(1.5+1.1)=1.8 x damage. In death shroud 1*(1.5+1.1) = 2.6 x damage. That is a 2.6/1.8 = 44% damage increase. Underwater life blast can hit about 2k/hit, 900 range, a mere 1/2 s activation time and each life blast removes one condition and transfers it to the enemy! It can be traited to give one stack of might per blast, cause vulnerability and pierce.

I enjoy underwater combat a lot, one very good player called me “best EU underwater fighter” and in WvWvW I am called “lord of the lake”, but that is exaggeration. I am an old man with slow reflexes. I haven’t yet run against a good necromancer underwater, but when I do, I know I will be a lot of trouble if I get within range.

But back to the topic:
The +50% damage increase from grenades assumes that all those 3 grenades hit the same target. This rarely happens from >1000 range, unless the target is standing still. And even then at 1500 it often happens so that not all 3 grenades hit the target. Especially underwater where the grenades spread a lot.

Grenade barrage is by far the biggest damage skill of the kit, then followed by shrapnel grenade. Grenade barrage normally throws 6 grenades and with the grenadier trait it throws 8. All those 8 will hit the same only if the target is right next to engineer (basically engineer has disabled melee auto assist and inside enemy character model). That is only a 8/6 = 33% damage increase if all the 8 grenades hit. Then comes the traits: Incendiary Powder will trigger with just 1 grenade per 10 seconds. So the grenadier trait won’t synergize with this trait.

Summary: grenadier grandmaster trait is very powerful indeed, but in real life situations doesn’t give a +50% damage increase, about +33% is more close to truth.

This requires a high crit rate and enough life force (or people dying around you to always be in death shroud. With only Grenadier, you can have 50% extra damage whenever you want.

For the spread, I agree, I even mentioned that it could be decreased in the OP. But that happens with 2 grenades as well, so adding a third grenade would likely increase the chance you hit a few targets more. But this is the same for lots of skills, if you place your skills “poorly” they will not do their potential damage. A poorly aimed whirlwind or a misplaced symbol won’t do their full damage; and a 1000+ ranged grenade will likely miss a few targets. If you want to guarantee 50% extra damage, you need to hit your targets point blank. That is simply the mechanics of the skill. In a similar way that Necrotic Grasp can easily be avoided if targeted at a 1200 range target, except more RNG is involved.

You are absolutely right about Barrage, I did forget about that part. But the gist of my suggestion is to keep everything the same, but add the target hits/crit chance(procs)/vulnerability/bleeds that an extra grenade would bring. In that sense, Barrage grenades would be adjusted to have the same damage as they currently have.

And while Incendiary Powder doesn’t synergize much (you do get extra chances to crit, if your crit chances are poor.) Steel packed powder does, Shrapnel and sharpshooter will as well.

Nerf grenade damage, but...

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Posted by: RaynStargaze.6510

RaynStargaze.6510

Probably the worst thread ive seen on this forum since release..

Nade damage is a kittening joke already

giving three nades right off the bat would make condi nades ridicolously OP

cant believe this kitten actually got over 1K views

Nerf grenade damage, but...

in Engineer

Posted by: Montgomery.1986

Montgomery.1986

Probably the worst thread ive seen on this forum since release..

Nade damage is a kittening joke already

giving three nades right off the bat would make condi nades ridicolously OP

cant believe this kitten actually got over 1K views

Good for you, now go away.

Nerf grenade damage, but...

in Engineer

Posted by: Knox.8962

Knox.8962

For the record, the spread doesn’t seem to be related to distance from the target at all. If you are very close, you may have your grenades detonate on the target as they pass through, instead of behind, but they don’t actually fly out in a V shape pattern when throw them. They target some random angle and radius from the center of the ground target and fly directly to the spot.

Nerf grenade damage, but...

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Posted by: Terrahero.9358

Terrahero.9358

I would argue that if you’re taking that much retaliation damage, you should switch to a different kit.

Oh god this argument again.

You play an Engineer right?

Please point me to the weapon and or kit that DOESNT consistent mostly of AoE and/or fast-hitting attacks.

Toolkit :P

Your nr1 is an AoE cleave. Nr2 is single-target, the rest arent damaging abilities. Toolbelt ability is AoE.

pistol/pistol Thief is an example of a single-target weapon combo. It will only hit the target you have selected with no chance of splashing, cleaving, AoEing, piercing (unless traited for ricochet, but thats a choice).

All Engineer weapons and kits are pretty much AoE, Cleave and/or Fast-hitting. In otherwords, screwed against (mass) Retaliation.

Retaliation is out of control in WvW, and should be fixed to offer a more consistant damage across the board. Without being worthless against slow-hard hitters or flat out broken against AoE or fast-hitting attacks.