Guild Wars 2

I haven’t had a chance to experiment, but the only thing keeping Flamethrower viable pre-patch in non-condition builds was the “Double pop” that Flame blast had giving the Engineer an ability to finally apply pressure. Now that this is taken away, I fear the worst for its PvP Meta application. I just don’t know what to say… Any opinions?

I have tested it, and it now lacks the proper power to be used. Now with the Flamethrower Kit we still have good Crowd Control and nothing to do but watch them heal after they get up. To be honest I’m shocked it was changed at all, at least allow Juggernaut trait to return the “Double Pop” or give Flamethrower more “Utility” in exchange as was previously mentioned. But alas, I’m just speechless.

Yup flamethrower is getting benched again for me. Im happy that it was usable for a while though.

I never really found the KR flame blast to be that effective. It’s definitely not a large factor in the usefulness/viability in the flamethrower though, there’s many other aspects of the kit that have significant bearing on that. If the loss of the KR flame blast has in fact destroyed this kit, then its not really so much a question of the flamethrower’s effectiveness as it is KR’s effectiveness.

It seems like they’re trying to get the new KR flame aura to promote better synergy with traits like Juggernaut, in that you’re now damaging your enemies while tanking them and building a few additional might stacks.

Furthermore, this provides us access to flame aura which we didn’t really have easily available access to before outside of combo finishers.

Lastly, I think they’re actually trying to implement something people wanted with the flamethrower all along – more burning. The new KR ability for flamethrower is a new source of burning, up to 4 seconds per attacker (assuming it works the same as other fire shields, and I’m not sure if condition duration affects this).

I think this might work out nicely with a complement of Runes of the Forge, although I’ve never been too impressed by the effectiveness of flamethrower builds in PvP (they can be fun though, just not that effective at winning).

there are 2 problems

1. fire aura: 1 might 5s might per hit, 1s internal cool down per enemy, last 4s
   mobs in pve will give you 2 at the most, and in dungeons, you will be half dead by then so useless useless!! AoE burn and condition removal was x1000 better

1. since FT2 has been “fixed” FT really really has no damage, free meal for warriors and thief, 2 damage skills on a kit and they “fix” 1.. now we’re left with berserker gear, dealing bunker damage!

lvl 30 warrior could hit harder than us now

people were startign to use FT on sPvP and be competitive at almost even ground with normal classes ( not thief, mesmer or ele )! why ’fix" it :S

It was bug, but bug which required skill to be used with best efficiency. I would like to see it back in some normal way. Like buff dmg on natural explosion by 50%. Now it just isnt the same fun as before.

It wasn’t overpowered in end game PvP. It has a huge tell, there for I usually used it for pressure, forcing people to dodge, or blow damage mitigation. Which is time they have to use instead of Healing/Applying more conditions/Ccing me. But i used it more for area control when in 1v1, Forcing Opponents to stay in close range. It’s application was amazing but now we just simply have nothing to do with our CC’s as aside from 100 Grenades, Engineers have no true burst. (Opinion) Kit Refinement is hurting, especially with the Tool Kit and the short Fire Field when swapping to Flamethrower every 20 seconds is hardly viable. When you can get a Fire Field from Jump Shot in less than 20 seconds while staying mobile and possibly doing nice damage. Flamethrower Kit has literally been swatted out of the hands of any non-condition build Engineer. I was just getting used to it too… -sigh- Guess we were not meant to play with matches after all..

I hate repeating myself, but since you all sound like a broken record, I might as well:

food for thieves and warriors? LOL. l2p.
no control? LOL. l2p.
no damage? LOL. l2p.

your 10 minutes of being eaten alive by better players than you while you experiment with a spec you are unfamiliar with does not make the spec broken.

Nerf to FT2? LOL. You all KNEW it was a bug, and relied on it anyways. l2p.
- me, my dps has gone up because im no longer cherry picking when to use it, I blow things up as often as possible.

the bug existed for all of one month and you kittens are all “mewl mewl” how will I ever make it now!

LOL.

once again, my build saw only buffs and bug fixes (ft/rifle, net turret). The eg saw major rework and improvement. turrets saw buffs and fixes all around.

why are mmo so different from other games? you are entitled to nothing but the privilege of playing the game the devs provide for you. you are entitled to give feedback, but stop acting like you are entitled to everything you want.

it’s like joining a club; you go when the club meets and do what the club does because that’s how it works. you make suggestions, but ultimately, you leav when it no longer suits your interests. the club doesn’t have to cater to you, but it tries.

there are, by my count, more than seven commonly discussed builds effective in a variety of situations, and this patch just added one more while buffing almost everything we have.

the KR saw alteration, not a nerf. you can still swap kits freely, you can still pull off chain combos, blah blah blah.

maybe farmville or any of its knock-offs might be more your speed.

nakoda.4213:

I hate repeating myself, but since you all sounlike a broken record, I might as well:

food for thieves and warriors? LOL. l2p.
no control? LOL. l2p.
no damage? LOL. l2p.

your 10 minutes of being eaten alive by better players than you while you experiment with a spec you are unfamiliar with does not make the spec broken.

Nerf to FT2? LOL. You all KNEW it was a bug, and relied on it anyways. l2p.
- me, my dps has gone up because im no longer cherry picking when to use it, I blow things up as often as possible.
the bug existed for all of one month and you kittens are all “mewl mewl” how will I ever make it now!

LOL.

once again, my build saw only buffs and bug fixes (ft/rifle, net turret). The eg saw major rework and improvement. turrets saw buffs and fixes all around.

why are mmo so different from other games? you are entitled to nothing but the privilege of playing the game the revs provide for you. you are entitled to give feedback, but stop acting like you are entitled to everything you want.

it’s like joining a club; you go when the club meets and do what the club does because that’s how it works. you make suggestions, but ultimately, you leav when it no longer suits your interests. the club doesn’t have to cater to you, but it tries.

there are, by my count, more than seven commonly discussed builds effective in a variety of situations, and this patch just added one more while buffing almost everything we have.

the KR saw alteration, not a nerf. you can still swap kits freely, you can still pull off chain combos, blah blah blah.

maybe farmville or any of its knock-offs might be more your speed.

Interesting Opinion… But doesn’t make the Flamethrower Kit viable in end game PvP.

that “cherry picking” required a bit of skill, both positioning yourself and positioning your target! that’s a fun kinda of gameplay! and enemies would engage in battle better cause they would see it as a treat, use stun breaker, condi removal and “fight” you!

FT now is an OKAY kit, but not worth it anymore..

I might keep it for PvE.

well, then, kitten you all because I use the ft exclusively in pvp, always have, and will continue to do so.

no skin off my back you can’t cut it; more fodder for my flames.

At Nakoda. In our previous arguments I had always respected what you had to say about the flamethrower because you were willing to share your build with us and talk through the good points it had with respect to other builds.

About this thread, sorry mate but since there’s always an influx of new engineers a lot of issues that have been previously fleshed out and discussed need to be constantly repeated. It’s not an issue with people going back to argue the same thing, it’s an issue with newer people arguing things that have already been discussed. No point in burning ourselves out on all these threads (Why I’ve lessened my posting).

At this thread. The flamethrower is a peculiar weapon. If you want to check out a detailed discussion on it then go to this thread (particularly at the end):

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/engineer/Flamethrower-is-still-not-worth-the-slot/first

Don’t be too quick to judge one weapon set because it doesn’t fit in with your playstyle. Some of these weapons are bread and butter for other engineers. I can admit this even if I don’t prefer the flamethrower myself.

As a final note, try not to rage at Nakoda, this issue is brought up every patch and he has been providing sensible comments for months now. I’ll just wait for phineas to get over here (with his inexhaustible debate skills) and shed some light on the issue.

or i got an easier solution! if you’re talking about sPvP, lets duel lets see if u can beat me with ft!

Engi rank 40.. so i would like to think i have an idea of what’s happening on sPVP, and before last month, any ft engi would just be consider a joke by any class.

(( also, im at work on a mobile, and trying to type patiently on a touch screen is more taxing than trying to make the argument polite is worth. ))

google.3709:

Engi rank 40.. so i would like to think i have an idea of what’s happening on sPVP

I would like to think that most rank 40s have an idea of what’s happening on sPvP as well.

I’d like to think a lot of things, actually…

;) Could be anytime! js and it could be just for fun! I always enjoy fighting good engineers! and would appreciate to learn how the FT should be used. i’ll be waiting

google.3709:

;) Could be anytime! js and it could be just for fun! I always enjoy fighting good engineers! and would appreciate to learn how the FT should be used. i’ll be waiting

im totally down, I want to get beat up by Maska too.

my play time is limited, but add me, and if im on let’s rumble.

truth be told, I consider myself an “average” player because I just can’t commit the time like I want to. im always down to cleanse your sins with fire though.

I don’t even know why you people are complaining about FT being unreliable.

Like we’ve discussed in topics before this, FT is still a viable weapon. Players have decided when and how to use it to the most benefit possible. It still is able to proc effects-on-crit a lot faster than other weapons. It still has the benefits of detonate-on-command, added burn on airblast, and 10% bonus damage on burning enemies for Flame Jet.

Double Detonate is a bug, which was destined to be fixed anyway.

It was a bug. It got fixed. FT felt the same with and without it. Get over it. Focus on other problems.

added

Sporadic and Nakoda,come out to wvw ill take your free badges any day of the week. Fanboys and trolls /sigh

I actually think questioning the validity of the Flamethrower in sPvP is a fair debate.

As an AoE kit, I do think it’s much better designed for group-play in PvE and badge-tagging in WvW in zergs. I use it in sPvP from time to time anyway, but there are better options.

If you want my honest opinion, I’m done with Kit Refinement and I’m tired of feeling dependent by it. ArenaNet kind of did me a favor in this patch, because I hated the loss of Energy Conversion Matrix (1%+ damage for every boon applied) when Incendiary Powder became a necessity.

Some people dislike having decisions made for them, but I have since rolled with a 10/30/0/30/0 setup and really don’t notice that large a drop in my survivability … though I do pair it with the Med Kit and Elixir Gun, which might affect others’ experiences compared to mine.

Kabooky.8071:

Sporadic and Nakoda,come out to wvw ill take your free badges any day of the week. Fanboys and trolls /sigh

The Flamethrower works great for WvW. I’ve been using it almost exclusively this week. Badges like candy. Just got to be careful with Retaliation, but that’s the case for any AoE build in this game.

Not sure what your intention in writing this was.

Grenades >> FT in wvw. Also in sPvP.

Forestnator.6298:

Grenades >> FT in wvw.

That depends entirely on your playstyle.

I happen to prefer jumping up in the rush, and the Flamethrower is far more durable at that. If standing at 1200 range is your kind of thing, great. But I can do that on my Elementalist without aggravating carpal tunnel symptoms.

@Phineas Poe
What do you do for swiftness? Nothing? Infused Precision?
And out of combat?

Phineas Poe.3018:

Forestnator.6298:

Grenades >> FT in wvw.

That depends entirely on your playstyle.

I happen to prefer jumping up in the rush, and the Flamethrower is far more durable at that. If standing at 1200 range is your kind of thing, great. But I can do that on my Elementalist without aggravating carpal tunnel symptoms.

No it doesnt matter on playstyle – grenades are also stronger in close combat.

Phineas Poe.3018:

I actually think questioning the validity of the Flamethrower in sPvP is a fair debate.

As an AoE kit, I do think it’s much better designed for group-play in PvE and badge-tagging in WvW in zergs. I use it in sPvP from time to time anyway, but there are better options.

If you want my honest opinion, I’m done with Kit Refinement and I’m tired of feeling dependent by it. ArenaNet kind of did me a favor in this patch, because I hated the loss of Energy Conversion Matrix (1%+ damage for every boon applied) when Incendiary Powder became a necessity.

Some people dislike having decisions made for them, but I have since rolled with a 10/30/0/30/0 setup and really don’t notice that large a drop in my survivability … though I do pair it with the Med Kit and Elixir Gun, which might affect others’ experiences compared to mine.

it’s an AoE weapon, correct but more than this, this is a farming weapon! in WvW its fine, you dont need the damage so simply put a little damg in as many targets and claim your badges, if you try using it on dungeons, your lack of damage will be heavily noticed and thus creates the common prejudice against engi that we have no damage.

and in sPvP, its terrible, specially with the current damage, 1 hard hitting skill mades us a treat to other players! and they would consider us as player! FT players now are back to being meal time

I suck at PvP, but I find I like FT better than I do grenades. For Forestnator: Grenades >> FT. For me: FT/Pistols/EG >> Grenades

Zenguy.6421:

@Phineas Poe
What do you do for swiftness? Nothing? Infused Precision?
And out of combat?

When we’re running from point to point, Drop Stimulant + Elixir B more than gets the job done. When we’re close to a tower or something, I’ll swap out Elixir B for something else.

Forestnator.6298:

No it doesnt matter on playstyle – grenades are also stronger in close combat.

If you’re looking purely at damage maybe. But keep in mind I said the Flamethrower is more durable when jumping up in the rush. 200 Toughness from Juggernaut + Soldier/Emerald gear is a lot better at keeping you alive than Rabid gear is. I recently have taken a liking of Backpack Regenerator over Cleansing Formula, which helps out a lot—and something HGH Grenadiers obviously don’t take.

google.3709:

if you try using it on dungeons, your lack of damage will be heavily noticed and thus creates the common prejudice against engi that we have no damage.

I’m not sure what this “common prejudice” is that you’re talking about, nor do I see how the Flamethrower has a lack of damage. Does it compare to the Grenade Kit? No, it doesn’t; but neither do most builds in this game across all classes. Before it was nerfed in January/February, the Grenade Kit was arguably the best sustained AoE DPS in the game. It still can be with the right spec.

Quite frankly I find it hysterical when people judge the viability of a spec or a class by how much damage it does when Guardian is the second-most popular class in the game. Not everyone has to play a glass cannon role.

Would I like if the FT did more damage? Definitely. But it’s not a necessity nor do I think the kit as it stands currently is devoid of use outside of farming.

Keep on writing this tripe if you must, but don’t take offense if I walk away laughing.

Thanks for your reply, Phineas_Poe.

I really want to keep my FT/EG build.
Any update to your guide, especially now that KR no longer procs Super Elixir?

[Edit] Edit was ninja’d. Will post separately.

so you’ve never heard of something being kicked out a group because he was an engineer? or never seem a lfg post saying “no engi” ? that’s odd

FT damage is weak, and you don’t have to believe me, just read all the post about ft on forums, i dont think there has ever been an “FT is so good!” post, js

PvE, sPvP, WvW & Dungeons, all share the same mechanic, you need to kill and sadly to kill you need damage so it’s kinda important.. and as for guardian, they are one if not the best support class, also they can tank like bosses, buff and have the most projectile reflects/blocks out all classes and lots of CC, and idk if you’ever played one but a cleric guardian does the same damage as a berserker or condi engi using FT. so unless you can do all of those things, can’t really compare engineers to guardians :S

Still way better than before the Feb. 26 patch.

I’m liking 10/30/0/30/0 right now. I’m going to give it a couple weeks and let the dust settle, but I really like having Energy Conversion Matrix and Incendiary Powder, especially since I’ve been using Protection Injection as my Adept Alchemy trait.

I have never been kicked out of a group for being engie, or for pulling out the ft, or for any reason. I have never experienced this engism you all keep pointing too.

google.3709:

so you’ve never heard of something being kicked out a group because he was an engineer? or never seem a lfg post saying “no engi” ? that’s odd

Maybe this kind of thing differs from server to server—but no. The only time my role has ever been question has been during CoF p1 speed runs, but once they notice that I give them 7 seconds of Fury every 15 seconds, they generally stop talking.

google.3709:

FT damage is weak, and you don’t have to believe me, just read all the post about ft on forums, i dont think there has ever been an “FT is so good!” post, js

I don’t have to read all the posts about the FT on the forums given that I have plenty of experience using it myself. I’ve been using the Flamethrower since October.

The Flamethrower is a middle-tier damage kit designed to act as a middle ground between offensive and defensive playstyles. ArenaNet is apparently satisfied with where the kit is at right now, and I’m not really that far off in my own expectations aside from Flame Blast getting a Blast finisher and reworking Flame Jet’s burning proc to free up trait dependency.

google.3709:

PvE, sPvP, WvW & Dungeons, all share the same mechanic, you need to kill and sadly to kill you need damage so it’s kinda important.. and as for guardian, they are one if not the best support class, also they can tank like bosses, buff and have the most projectile reflects/blocks out all classes and lots of CC, and idk if you’ever played one but a cleric guardian does the same damage as a berserker or condi engi using FT. so unless you can do all of those things, can’t really compare engineers to guardians :S

I never said damage wasn’t important. I merely disagree that damage is everything.

And yes, I’ve played a Guardian. It’s my alt. And you are definitely exaggerating about their damage output wearing Cleric insignia gear.

nakoda.4213:

I have never been kicked out of a group for being engie, or for pulling out the ft, or for any reason. I have never experienced this engism you all keep pointing too.

An engineer only really brought one thing to a group for support; Super Elixir.

Having a 24/7 light field that removed conditions was reason enough to bring an engineer, and I had argued in favor of bringing an engineer over a thief or necro many many times…..

…but now, personally, I’d kick you from my groups.

If I want tanking, I get guardians and warriors
If i want damage I get warriors
If I want healing support I get guardians, banner warriors and ele’s
If I want DPS and survival support I get thieves and rangers

but there is no situation.. none.. not a one… where I think to myself “boy, wish we had an engineer”

nakoda.4213:

I have never been kicked out of a group for being engie, or for pulling out the ft, or for any reason. I have never experienced this engism you all keep pointing too.

you must be the luckiest engineer in the game! i guess it sucks to be all of us, right? lol

Wow, Ezriel. You just earned the kitten award. But it’s easy to be the kitten when you can’t get a fist to your face.

For the people that have used FT for quite a while, they’ve learned to incorporate it with other kits, utilities and weapons and they’ve survived fairly well.

FT has offense, defense and support. A player who knows how to use it will survive.

A player that knew how to stand in the lightfield, and use it, used to survive….

…now, not so much.

Well, this little debate is getting ugly.

Main points are Flamethrower versus Grenades, Flamethrower’s viability in PvX enviroments, and the bias against engineers in PvE content.

So, flamethrower versus grenades. In my experience, they’re about equal. You’ll get better physical damage and more bleeding out of grenades, but flamethrower’s burning and knockback make it just as useful in PvP. I wonder if it’s possible to use both… In pve, grenades tend to shine a bit more, simply because burning is often stacked by guardians/eles before engies can get to it. The knockback is less useful, since you don’t have to worry about stomps.

Now, that being said, there’s no reason a flamethrower can’t be used in PvE. It may not be optimal, but it does have certain benefits, including the ability to stack might, a fire combo field, access to blind, and its pushback. A condition build can do a lot of work with a flamethrower, especially if the player knows how to jump in and out of melee range to avoid attacks. For pvp, flamethrower can allow you to get over 2k condition damage easily, meaning its burns tick for more 800 damage every second. Combined with the other condition sources and the improved it gives, flamethrower can be very formidable.

As for the bias, I used to see it much more often than I do now. I personally have never been removed from a group because of my class, nor have I been refused entry into one, however, I have seen people say no engineers in chat before. Whether or not it’s still rampant today is unknown to me, but it seems unlikely.

Ezeriel.9574:

but there is no situation.. none.. not a one… where I think to myself “boy, wish we had an engineer”

I think one could honestly make that argument about most classes in this game.

It never really crosses my mind in most dungeons that I’m “missing out” on much with my group’s composition. I’ve certainly never found myself in the middle of a CoE group where we are kicking ourselves for not having a Mesmer.

I just get cranky sometimes when people act like kitten on a forum.

I’m with Phineas as I’ve never heard any group say, “If we had a blah, we’d do better.”

Okay, maaaaaaaybe a mesmer for the swamp fractal of FotM. That is the most annoying scene that takes a lot of maddening coordination.

Everyone brings something unique to the table. But the classes are close enough in respect for everyone to switch roles.

let’s everyone roll to messie, ele, and guard, and we can all pretend we still play EQ with a trinity.

you “gamers” ever stop to think that gw2’s lack of trinity is only being bottle-necked by generations of gamers so used to the trinity that they can’t imagine anything else?

gfo.

Sporadicus.1028:

Wow, Ezriel. You just earned the kitten award. But it’s easy to be the kitten when you can’t get a fist to your face.

For the people that have used FT for quite a while, they’ve learned to incorporate it with other kits, utilities and weapons and they’ve survived fairly well.

FT has offense, defense and support. A player who knows how to use it will survive.

Anybody can “survive” with any weapon on any class in the game if they work at it enough. That doesn’t mean that the weapon can’t be improved.

Every weapon can be improved. Heck, everything can be improved. But an improvement doesn’t make it balanced. There are plenty of improvements that have imbalanced an item or weapon in games.

It’s not “how can we improve this weapon”, but “how can we balance this weapon” that needs to be discussed.

Sporadicus.1028:

Every weapon can be improved. Heck, everything can be improved. But an improvement doesn’t make it balanced. There are plenty of improvements that have imbalanced an item or weapon in games.

It’s not “how can we improve this weapon”, but “how can we balance this weapon” that needs to be discussed.

Well no, by definition something that imbalances it would not improve it. Improving the damage or cc, could be thought of as unbalancing it. However, improving flamethrower as a whole takes balance into consideration.

My point being, this game is developed to the point that you can survive and do at least a half kittened job of pve and pvp with just about every weapon. However, that doesn’t mean that the weapon is fine. Flamethrower is not fine.

timidobserver.7925:

Flamethrower is not fine.

I will have to heartily disagree here, because “not fine” is meaningless.

Could the FT use more love? Of course it could, a couple more combo fields, and maybe a bit more top end dmg on the FT1.

These are minor, though. the ft is versatile, durable, and reasonably powerful.

when used in combination with a toolkit/eg build, a pistol/condi build or rifle/net build, the ft is a very useful addition to your arsenal.

timidobserver.7925:

Anybody can “survive” with any weapon on any class in the game if they work at it enough.

And anyone can “damage” with any weapon on any class in the game if they work at it enough. The question is whether the survivability and the damage of a weapon properly are in balance with one another; many would argue that the Flamethrower is. You’re just more durable. This cannot be argued against.

You cannot argue around the fact that 200 Toughness from Juggernaut makes a difference, and that Power-based builds get the upper hand in survivability gear against Condition Damage builds given Soldier > Rabid in stacking both Vitality and Toughness. Most of the full-defensive options for Condition Damage builds instead favor Healing Power, which really doesn’t do a lot for us given we use mostly regenerative skills and only have one real direct heal at our disposal.

The Flamethrower is a very trait-dependent weapon, needing traits in 3 trees to get the most out of it. But I can still freely take Infused Precision + Invigorating Speed for perma Vigor in combat.

I can nab Self-Regulating Defenses or Protection Injection should I want them. Or Backpack Regenerator. Or Cleansing Formula. HGH Grenadiers could arguably do this too, given they run with 30 points in Alchemy, but the thing is that they usually don’t.

“Viable” gets so abused.

People are talking at cross-purposes: Are we discussing FT in PvP? Dungeons? WvW? All of them?

I can’t say much about PvP; I’ve tried FT a few times and I can never get it to work well for me—but I recognize that it’s a matter of playstyle and preference, not a failing of the kit. Which seems to be the root of the Engi problem: a lot of people seem be upset that the Engi isn’t what they think it should be, rather than acknowledging that, perhaps, one of the seven other classes might suit them better.

This forum is full of histronics and in short supply of empirical data to support all the wailing and gnashing of teeth. Regarding dungeons, what kind of numbers are we talking about when we say “good damage?” And when we say “dungeons” are we talking about the same thing? Or has that come to mean CoFp1 speedruns (herpaderpderpgogogo!)? Let’s define what we’re talking about so, maybe, we can have an actual discussion.