Guild Wars 2

Well i feel sorry for all of you flaming at the FT, its and awesome kit, all kits are, you just l2p with them as for ppl flaming the engineer you need to shut slry u need to
I have never been flamed for being engi aside from Arah Path 4 when simin was a dps tester, and at that time i made a different spec fully concentrated in damage.
Now if you ask me,
Hell 20 seconds on KR is a joke, we rely on changing kits. Kinda like eles and changing attunements…
KR = Joke 20s cod and shared by all kits its just a kitten joke if u ask me.. the FT fire aura is a good idea better then the low damage flame aoe it used to have.. other than engineers that used to rely on KR i don’t see why do you wine about FT

@Malvado.1460

in order to make the flamethrower effective they should have fixed the stats given when switching equips (they are considered rares so you lower your power by 300 points… that’s pretty much the damage it needs), but no… they just LOVE to nerf us and give nothing in return… been so since day1.

Gotta say:
I absolutely love engineer conversations. I’ll be in guild chat and have to stop what I’m doing to glean any little bits of info I can when WvW pros start talking about their builds. FT is my weapon of choice, but I concede that I’m not the absolute best with it. What I’m finding out is that food and things like maintenance oils/sharpening stones/tuning crystals are tying our divergent properties together to eek out a lot more dps, we just have to be a little smarter to get to it. I know that’s applicable to every class and may even go without saying, but things like maintenance oil reroute my juggernaut trait toughness and armor’s/trinket’s toughness and vitality into about 5 – 8 more points of crit chance or a lot more damage.

Add fully stacked sigils of perception or bloodlust, eat high-level food, swap out to proc-chance-per-crit dual weapons and you get a tough, mean, might-stacked problem with traits and skill slots to spare for dogged HP harassment, a blind, a reflect, an interrupt and whatever else we feel like coding onto someone’s hind parts, and that’s all just within this kit and your wielded weapons.

I think engineer class was made for devious people that can make the most out of raw, sometimes unsavory materials, which is within the spirit of what actual, IRL engineers do. I’ve seen discussions turn towards the negative on this forum real fast, but the humble, honest 180’s people take in talks of this profession make me really happy.

I have been using FT since day one and I don’t intend to stop. I think it got better. I always knew the double pop was a bug and expected it to go away sooner. I’m liking that a net turret got a better with my FT build too. So I’m in.

@Rfreak.6591
u need to rephrase or hell I am very dumb cause i don’t see the nerf u talking about :\

google.3709:

so you’ve never heard of something being kicked out a group because he was an engineer? or never seem a lfg post saying “no engi” ? that’s odd

FT damage is weak, and you don’t have to believe me, just read all the post about ft on forums, i dont think there has ever been an “FT is so good!” post, js

PvE, sPvP, WvW & Dungeons, all share the same mechanic, you need to kill and sadly to kill you need damage so it’s kinda important.. and as for guardian, they are one if not the best support class, also they can tank like bosses, buff and have the most projectile reflects/blocks out all classes and lots of CC, and idk if you’ever played one but a cleric guardian does the same damage as a berserker or condi engi using FT. so unless you can do all of those things, can’t really compare engineers to guardians :S

I definitely know about that issue and I think I’m not up to snuff yet, which only might add to that prejudice. I have a berserker green lvl 80/ruby orb armor/trinket set I was experimenting with and I was getting GREAT damage in PvE and dungeons, but one dungeon run I forgot to switch out my luck trinkets/back piece for high damage trinkets. I did a lot of FT kiting and corralling, hardly ever got downed, but I did no real damage. The group broke in dungeon and I couldn’t help but blame myself afterwards. Just saying that base-level FT players don’t really stand out as useful unless we tweak our properties to the utmost degree and have the procedures and movement to back that up.

Maullus, I think you’re right to point out that we’re being very vague in our description of what we use it with, and could very easily be arguing the same points in the end yet are just currently on different pages.

To define “good” damage: my Flame Blast was doing over 10K damage in Zerker gear before it was fixed. Now it’s back to its usual 6-8K range depending on what crits and what doesn’t. Flame Jet regularly climbs over 3K damage unbuffed (4K with 25 Might, 5K with Vulnerability) and burns for various amounts of damage depending how much Might I have stacked.

The question regarding: “is this good damage?”

I think it’s suitable given whatever else the kit has: a projectile reflect/interrupt/knockback, a Fire combo field, and a PBAoE Blind that can be used while stunned.

Defensively, the Flamethrower is just superior to the Grenade Kit. It just is. And with the Elixir Gun’s Acid Bomb (which scales remarkably well with Power), with applying group Might and Fury with 6/6 Altruism, with Super Elixir’s Light field + Fumigate for group condition removal, I think the FT (with the EG) is a perfectly suitable offensive/defensive hybrid build for 100% of PvE content. Period.

Will you complete the fastest CoF p1 runs with the FT? No, but I’ve certainly clocked my share of them in 6 minutes, fitting 3 runs under 30 minutes when including time taken to restart every run. And many of them are done with Rangers in my party. But I rarely PUG. I generally do CoF with my guild, which may explain my difference in experience—the completion of a 6 minute run versus an 8 minute one is largely the body between the keyboard and chair and not so much the class taken.

I don’t have videos posting my numbers because (1) I think a lot of what I say is self-explanatory and (2) I have meticulously, down to every detail, explained how I get what I get out of it.

If people still aren’t convinced, that is entirely on them. It’s no skin off my back. I just prefer not to be misrepresented, which is why I take issue with these threads that act like the sky is falling every time a bug regarding the Engineer is fixed (in this case Flame Blast’s double tap).

johnsonade.9547:

I was experimenting with and I was getting GREAT damage in PvE and dungeons, but one dungeon run I forgot to switch out my luck trinkets/back piece for high damage trinkets. I did a lot of FT kiting and corralling, hardly ever got downed, but I did no real damage. The group broke in dungeon and I couldn’t help but blame myself afterwards.

Just out of curiosity, but why did the group break? If people are dying that’s entirely on them, not you. Don’t blame yourself for the mishaps of other players.

Rfreak.6591:

but no… they just LOVE to nerf us and give nothing in return… been so since day1.

Bullspit.

The Flamethrower and Tool Kit got buffed significantly in February. And this month both PPHGH and Static Discharge builds got even more powerful. And now they’re trying to fit turrets into the meta, which is admirable …

The only build that’s gotten nerfed the past three months is the Grenade Kit, which hardly matters because now Condition Duration runes/weapons work so they’ve received a flat buff yesterday in their damage.

Kit Refinement nerf obviously hurts everybody across the board, but Engineers will learn to live without it. All in all, I think Engineers have gotten nothing but better month by month.

Phineas Poe.3018:

johnsonade.9547:

I was experimenting with and I was getting GREAT damage in PvE and dungeons, but one dungeon run I forgot to switch out my luck trinkets/back piece for high damage trinkets. I did a lot of FT kiting and corralling, hardly ever got downed, but I did no real damage. The group broke in dungeon and I couldn’t help but blame myself afterwards.

Just out of curiosity, but why did the group break? If people are dying that’s entirely on them, not you. Don’t blame yourself for the mishaps of other players.

Ahh I really try to help out my guild and when things don’t go well, I just get highly self-critical. We were on AC Exp p1 and we had two Great Sword users and even I noticed my own lack of damage. Thanks to elixir R, FT blind, swiftness on kit trait, and formula 409 trait, I was always on my feet, but I just really want engi class to shine as useful so I’m kinda in rune and trinket crisis as to what would really make my FT engi the best there is.

Phineas Poe.3018:

snipe

It’s your opinion, not a fact.

Just like I would never trade my Grenade kit for a Flamethrower kit.

For a full potential Flamethower, you have to spend 30 points in firearms, and 20 points in Alchemist. That’s a lot of trait for 1 kit, while I can just spend 30 points and have my Grenades kits at full potential.

I’m a fan of creating different build and all, but flamethrower traits annoye me because I feel bad if I don’t have the 15% damage or the juggernaut.

Another thing with FT, is the lack of gap closer. I found myself switching to FT only to fireblast, knockback and sometime blind when stomping/stunned.

The firefield got a long kitten delay before shooting, and I’M not a fan of offensive field. It should do direct damage, right now only adding burn duration (which I rarely need because I already stacked perma burn).

Fireblast is still really bugged. It still tend to disappear in the ground and not touch the enemy.

The auto attack is weak, I try to never use it.

“But I can do 3k damage over the duration”

Yeah so in one auto attack combo, you can do that. Warrior can do 2-3x time that damage in one auto attack chain, AoE. With Toolkit auto attack I can hit for 6.5kin one combo.

Again any melee ennemy, you can’t use it. they will out damage you, and for anyone who used FT in close combat, melee fight are annoying because you’ll miss half your attack.

With one auto attack from Grenade, I can do 2k+from 1500 range.

Toolbelt :

IA → Got nerfed from the global nerf we got like 3 month ago. Another burn. Will add like 2-3k damage of burning. Less if removed or already perma burning.

Grenade Barrage → between 6-10k damage. Direct damage. From range. Is Aoe. Lower cooldown.

Finally, I think the thing that annoy me the most with Flamethrower, is it only stack Burn as condition. Sure you can traits for more condition, and stack what? 2-3 bleeds?

With traits and grenade, I can perma stack burns, 10+ stack of bleeds, poison, vulnerability(up to 20 stack) and a good amount of Chill.

I’m not saying FT is bad. This is a good kit. But I wouldn’t go as far as to say it’s on Grenade kit level.

Especially in duel, again class like mesmer/guardian. I played a lot with FT, and it was good for support dps, that’s it.

Personnal opinion, not a fact.

Kardiamond.6952:

It’s your opinion, not a fact.

You snipped this of any context, so I’m not sure what is supposed to be my opinion.

That the Flamethrower is more durable than the Grenade Kit at the front of a zerg? I’m sorry, but it is. You cannot argue around 200 passive Toughness just wielding a Flamethrower. The question then is, is it worth it standing at the front of a zerg? I think so. I find it fun jumping up in the rush, which is why my Guardian is level 80 in exotic/ascended gear and my Elementalist is level 43.

Or is it that I think the damage it does is fine? Yes, that is my opinion. And if people don’t think so I don’t really have a problem with that.

Kardiamond.6952:

For a full potential Flamethower, you have to spend 30 points in firearms, and 20 points in Alchemist. That’s a lot of trait for 1 kit, while I can just spend 30 points and have my Grenades kits at full potential.

I agree. And with the buff to Flame Jet that does 10% additional damage to burning targets, we actually need Incendiary Powder too. That’s 60 points tethered to three different trees; I’ve already made this point and I agree it’s the one thing that ArenaNet needs to fix.

The simple solution, as I’ve suggested in previous threads, is just flat buffing the Flamethrower’s damage by 15-20% and reworking Deadly Mixture as a utility trait, like adding a snare/immobilization to Acid Bomb and Napalm. Having Flame Jet burn on the first hit and not the tenth will also completely nullify the necessity of Incendiary Powder and actually make Napalm Specialist (20% Burn Duration) actually worth using.

In two moves, it frees up the Flamethrower’s trait dependency to solely 30 in the Firearms tree—something I wish ArenaNet would take into consideration for April’s patch.

Kardiamond.6952:

Yeah so in one auto attack combo, you can do that. Warrior can do 2-3x time that damage in one auto attack chain, AoE. With Toolkit auto attack I can hit for 6.5kin one combo.

Warriors can do 2-3x that amount of damage when they gear for glass cannon with Ruby orbs in their armor. If I did the same thing with my Flamethrower I would be doing far more than 3K per Flame Jet; more importantly, I already do, as I said. It does 3K damage unbuffed.

As for the Tool Kit, I’d love to see how you’re getting these 6.5K chains. I love the Tool Kit and I use it all the time in WvW, but I get nowhere near that with the Smack chain. 4K, maybe. On a single target. At 130 range. If they don’t evade any of the attacks. The Tool Kit is like the Guardian Mace—it swings so slowly that you can telegraph when your opponents need to dodge.

Someone dodges your Thwack? Well … there goes like 2K damage.

Kardiamond.6952:

With one auto attack from Grenade, I can do 2k+from 1500 range.

Which is an argument I’ve never disputed. Read through the thread again. I’ve never denied that the Grenade Kit does more damage; the Flamethrower is simply more durable. If you don’t think the DPS loss is worth the added durability then don’t use it. But please don’t put words in my mouth or waste time addressing an argument that was never made.

I state in the OP the Flamethrower Kit is no longer viable in non-condition builds in end game PvP. (That is to say meta PvP where your opponents are aware of all other profession skills and builds) I use the term viable, to insist that beyond of taking advantage of hot join surprise it is no longer applicable. I have tested it against the same skilled players/professions/builds (Condition Bunker Ranger, Mesmers, Elementalists, Condition Necromancers) the only variable being the Patch. I could usually win the majority of fights, at around 80% if I had to make a guess. But not from exploits, the matches were usually won with less than 25% health and I would usually lose to simply being out played. (Having key CC mitigated) in my opinion a fair/fun way to lose. Now against those same players I have a 20% win percentage.

Don’t get met my wrong, I’m not trying to complain per say, I’m just saying I feel the changes to Flamethrower Kit has made it no longer viable in end game PvP.

Happy to see you are open minded for the discution.

But you are still giving out an opinion, not a fact. :P

If 200 toughtness is your definiton of defence, then I agree.

But mine is different. Does the 200 toughtness is worth jumping in the crowd and getting fire focused and hit by every AoE around?

I think the +200 thoughtness balance the fact that you have to be melee to fight. I don’t really think it will give you an edge.

With a full berserker ascended gear, I wouldn’t see more thekittenk flame jet. With around 15 might stack. And that was my max.

With toolkit, my first 2 attack crit for around 1.5k. The last attack hit really hard. I usually get 3k hit.So togheter that’s around 6 – 6.5k. Yep the combo it self is kinda bat. Bat at least you won’t kill yourself again retaliation guardian.

The only aspect I think FT is superior to Grenade, is CC from airblast. Otherwise, I’m not a fan at all.

I was giving my opinion, and no I don’t use it anymore. Especially since the omn pie nerf, and the debug of fire blast.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Maullus, I think you’re right to point out that we’re being very vague in our description of what we use it with, and could very easily be arguing the same points in the end yet are just currently on different pages.
…

And all the other stuff Phineas said. I agree compeletely; thanks for saving me the trouble of saying it, and I won’t belabor any of the points you explained so well by repeating them.

I will address one thing though, which is this boogeyman of “I got kicked from a group for being an Engineer!” This is rule #1 of MMOs, and it’s even more true in GW2 than it has been in any other game.

Rule 1
Don’t be kitten

Corollary to Rule 1
Don’t run with derps.

A group of people that insists on having four warriors and a mesmer is a group of fools trying to optimize a trivial problem.

Engineer is good and getting better. If that isn’t your experience then you’re probably playing the wrong class.

@Phineas Poe.3018

Well… I think Toolkit is probably the most balanced kit (except for the 1s cast-time #2 skill, which is a shame) but you do know that those buffs were there to bring’em ALMOST on par with others right?

In fact we still lack the promised FIX that kits’ stats would scale correctly, but as of now they still count as rares making us lose 200-300 power that would help greatly to balance kits’ damage.

I’m losing faith in ANet on daily basis as far as making skills useful/interesting/balanced goes.

FT was already bad even with double pop FT. Now it’s just very bad. At least we could skill shot with that bug.

Oh well. Shows how little they know about their own game.

@Phineas Poe

(Opinion) subtracting individual players behavior, I never found Flamethrower provides much Durability aside from the Knock Back, which I feel has most synergy when used offensively after a high Burn to increase its duration and to set up for Flame Blast. Juggernaut Traits 200 toughness is noticeable but the best way for an engineer to mitigate damage is to just not get hit. Aside from Med Kit the Elixir Kit, Tool Kit, And Bomb Kit have much greater defensive skills giving much more durability and longevity to high scale PvP. Even the Grenade Kits access to Chill and Blind (blind that has longer range and lower cooldown than Flamethrower kit) makes it arguably more durable than the Flamethrower. All this I’m sure you already know being an Engineer Player, I’m just curious in a Friendly way how your new (patch) Flamethrower results are in organized PvP?

Wolf.5816:

I have tested it, and it now lacks the proper power to be used. Now with the Flamethrower Kit we still have good Crowd Control and nothing to do but watch them heal after they get up. To be honest I’m shocked it was changed at all, at least allow Juggernaut trait to return the “Double Pop” or give Flamethrower more “Utility” in exchange as was previously mentioned. But alas, I’m just speechless.

Please note that this Thread is mainly discussing the PvP application and viability of the Flamethrower Kit in the Mist’s. as I am aware of it’s application in WvW for “Tagging” multiple foes for Badges. (Although there is arguably better alternatives for this.)

Wolf.5816:

I state in the OP the Flamethrower Kit is no longer viable in non-condition builds in end game PvP.

Agreed! My first post in this thread was in regard to one poster’s raging and I said that the discussion of Flamethrower’s viability in sPvP is a legitimate discussion.

Static Discharge and PPHGH were better before March 26th, and now they’re even better. I think a lot of problems that plague the Flamethrower are a l2p and perception issue, but it shines more in group-play PvE and WvW badge tagging. Just can’t get around this.

just spent the last hour in hotjoin, 6 games, 1k glory, 4 wins, 2 losses, two matches with over 230 points.

had fun, don’t see why you all mew about the ft. it is awesome.

Last night I was running a variant of the HGH might stacking build with a 10/30/0/30/0 and I had some OK success. I’m considering using Pistol Shield instead of my current Pistol/Pistol because they will give me more defensive capability as well as 3 interrupts.

Although, instead of stacking might I think it may be better to go for burn duration and initial damage than just all might stacking. The problem with the current setup is that I can’t find room for Deadly Mixture.

nakoda.4213:

just spent the last hour in hotjoin, 6 games, 1k glory, 4 wins, 2 losses, two matches with over 230 points.

had fun, don’t see why you all mew about the ft. it is awesome.

A quote from a previous post: “I use the term viable, to insist that beyond of taking advantage of hot join surprise it is no longer applicable.”

Hotjoin?

What?

What kind of test is that.

That’s like killing upleveled player in WvW, or killing trahs mobs in PvE.

Hotjoin is NOT a good test to know if a build is viable.

I actually made a gimmick EG burst build in Hotjoin, and got good result.

50% of people in hotjoin aren’t playing to win, but to kill.

majority of players are there only to test build.

nakoda.4213:

just spent the last hour in hotjoin, 6 games, 1k glory, 4 wins, 2 losses, two matches with over 230 points.

had fun, don’t see why you all mew about the ft. it is awesome.

And how does any of what you said has anything to do with flamethrower?

So if i win 4 games out of 6 games by standing with NO WEAPON used it means Engineer is good even if he doesn’t do anything? That playing without weapon/kits is viable ?

sorry Bub but that’s not an argument. Doesn’t prove a thing.

it means that using the ft for an hour i had fun, enjoyed myself, and earned points.

that is what playing this game is about, no?

gfy. i always play hotjoin in the morning before work. nothing wrong with team deathmatch once in awhile. it is still a valid test, especially for the FT where you have more opportunities for larger groups than tpvp.

wtf is all y’all problem hating on the game so much? go play something you like.

Titlte of the thread : “New Flamethrower not viable”

Not the title of the thread : " New flamethrower is not fun"

So yeah Nakoda, that’s not the point of this thread.

nakoda.4213:

it means that using the ft for an hour i had fun, enjoyed myself, and earned points.

that is what playing this game is about, no?

gfy.

No. You see some of us play to have fun AND win team fights. With underpowered skills we can’t use something we would like to because we will be handicapping ourselves.

Some of us have fun BECAUSE having extremely intense and satisfying Team vs Team fights with both teams being organized.

gfy

As the other guy told you. It’s not whether it’s fun or not. It’s whether it is competitive or not in organized play like tournaments.

Malvado.1460:

Well i feel sorry for all of you flaming at the FT, its and awesome kit, all kits are, you just l2p with them as for ppl flaming the engineer you need to shut slry u need to
I have never been flamed for being engi aside from Arah Path 4 when simin was a dps tester, and at that time i made a different spec fully concentrated in damage.
Now if you ask me,
Hell 20 seconds on KR is a joke, we rely on changing kits. Kinda like eles and changing attunements…
KR = Joke 20s cod and shared by all kits its just a kitten joke if u ask me.. the FT fire aura is a good idea better then the low damage flame aoe it used to have.. other than engineers that used to rely on KR i don’t see why do you wine about FT

Cool story bro but what has Arah to do with PvP ?
Op specifically talked about FT in PvP.

nakoda.4213:

lol. whatever. you guys are kittened.

this entire community is kittened, and it is this community that is destroying the class, not the devs.

i can count the intelligent people that post on this forum on my hands.

peace, tkittens.

If you don’t like it don’t come here. No one is forcing you. And insulting people just because they pointed your flawed argument is childish. Look at your post again and then talk about this community. Oh the irony.

You talked besides the topic and now complain about it.

And now you are all "they disagree with me so they are not intelligent and they are all kitten "

Grenades also give u more durability in close combat then FT: AoE-blindness every 8 sec + nearly perma chill and the fact u can deal dmg behind u = much much much more then 200 armor. lol.

Forestnator.6298:

Grenades also give u more durability in close combat then FT: AoE-blindness every 8 sec + nearly perma chill and the fact u can deal dmg behind u = much much much more then 200 armor. lol.

But it’s not just the 200 Toughness from Juggernaut.

It’s that HGH Grenadiers go for, well, HGH. They also go for Potent Elixirs + Fast-Acting Elixirs, while the FT Engineer can freely use Invigorating Speed + Protection Injection/Self-Regulating Defenses. Deadly Mixture is the only necessary trait in Alchemy that I need. The other two traits can be selected to improve my survivability. While HGH Engineers can arguably do this too, they generally don’t.

Also I will take Smoke Vent over Flash Grenade any day of the week. One can be used while stunned. The other can’t.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Forestnator.6298:

Grenades also give u more durability in close combat then FT: AoE-blindness every 8 sec + nearly perma chill and the fact u can deal dmg behind u = much much much more then 200 armor. lol.

But it’s not just the 200 Toughness from Juggernaut.

It’s that HGH Grenadiers go for, well, HGH. They also go for Potent Elixirs + Fast-Acting Elixirs, while the FT Engineer can freely use Invigorating Speed + Protection Injection/Self-Regulating Defenses. Deadly Mixture is the only necessary trait in Alchemy that I need. The other two traits can be selected to improve my survivability. While HGH Engineers can arguably do this too, they generally don’t.

Also I will take Smoke Vent over Flash Grenade any day of the week. One can be used while stunned. The other can’t.

I do wish though that smoke vent made a 3 second smoke field around you so you could 3 blinds every 20secs rather than just one.

Who talks about HGH?

Phineas Poe.3018:

Forestnator.6298:

Grenades also give u more durability in close combat then FT: AoE-blindness every 8 sec + nearly perma chill and the fact u can deal dmg behind u = much much much more then 200 armor. lol.

But it’s not just the 200 Toughness from Juggernaut.

It’s that HGH Grenadiers go for, well, HGH. They also go for Potent Elixirs + Fast-Acting Elixirs, while the FT Engineer can freely use Invigorating Speed + Protection Injection/Self-Regulating Defenses. Deadly Mixture is the only necessary trait in Alchemy that I need. The other two traits can be selected to improve my survivability. While HGH Engineers can arguably do this too, they generally don’t.

Also I will take Smoke Vent over Flash Grenade any day of the week. One can be used while stunned. The other can’t.

HGH is a completly different line.

You can build a Grenade Engineer with HGH, and still have the formula 409, something you can’t have if you spec for FT.

Kardiamond.6952:

HGH is a completly different line.

You can build a Grenade Engineer with HGH, and still have the formula 409, something you can’t have if you spec for FT.

Why exactly can’t FT Engineers have Cleansing Formula 409?

Phineas Poe.3018:

Kardiamond.6952:

HGH is a completly different line.

You can build a Grenade Engineer with HGH, and still have the formula 409, something you can’t have if you spec for FT.

Why exactly can’t FT Engineers have Cleansing Formula 409?

you can…
But than you need 30 points in the alchemy line as well. Unless you give up 15% damage on your flamethrower, a weapon that already is a bit behind in damage.

This results in either a FT with 15% less damage, or a build having very little leeway with only 10 points left.

This touches on a general engineer issue that this patch even made worse:
elixir traits are great, usefull and reachable.
While kit traits got weaker and are very spread out.
Turret traits are all over the place as well, and hardly make a difference when your turret is attacked.
Gadget traits are almost non-existing…

Backpack regen vs condition removal on using or throwing elixirs?
They don’t even out, they really don’t…
HGH vs only might for juggernaut, not for a single other kit?
All traits in the same position, but not in the same strenght.

Not a single trait for condition removal, or even healing, when doing something with a turret, or a gadget.

They gave elixir traits everything that the other utilities should have as well.
While elixirs already have all the boons and support as it is.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Kardiamond.6952:

HGH is a completly different line.

You can build a Grenade Engineer with HGH, and still have the formula 409, something you can’t have if you spec for FT.

Why exactly can’t FT Engineers have Cleansing Formula 409?

Like Kimbald said :

If you go HGH build with FT, you have ether sacrifice formula 409, or 15% damage increase with FT.

That’s why I said it’s “not doable”. It’s doable, but you lose one of your most important traits for FT. You can also sacrifice HGH for 409, but I don’t think it’s worth it.

I would even be more accepting if they simply changed the functionality of the Flamethrower Kit from CC & Burst (Pre-Patch) to more Utility, like previously discussed by the developers. But instead the damage has been removed, not even reduced. This is why I believe it is no longer usable in higher scalp PvP.

But while on the subject of Smoke Vent I always thought removing the Blind effect and replacing it with a 1 second Distort effect while keeping its current cooldown would make it very appealing while not tipping the scales of balance. Although this alone would not make the Flamethrower Kit Viable for end game PvP. It would help builds that use the flamethrower as a “Pop and swap” kit.

this patch even removed a lot of the condition removal you could have with FT (or EG).
Go figure, that too is a push in the favour of elixir builds…

Kimbald.2697:

you can…
But than you need 30 points in the alchemy line as well. Unless you give up 15% damage on your flamethrower, a weapon that already is a bit behind in damage.

I do not understand your thought process. No one has to ever go without Deadly Mixture.

@Phineas

How do you do then? How do you get HGH, Deadly mixture and 409 on the same build?

Kardiamond.6952:

If you go HGH build with FT

Question #1: Why are you using HGH with the Flamethrower?
Question #2: Did you know that you can easily get 20+ stacks of Might without it?

I have never used HGH with my Flamethrower in PvE, PvP, or WvW.

Kardiamond.6952:

@Phineas

How do you do then? How do you get HGH, Deadly mixture and 409 on the same build?

wondering as well.
Would be nice to see.

Oh man you post was misleading. When you talked about HGH engineer, I thought you werre still talking about FT engineer.

Never mind the last reply then.

And yeah, I know we can get some pretty high might stack.

So If I understand your original post, you say a FT can gain more survivability, because they can use survival traits.

But they only have 20/30(if you count the first 10 in alchemist) points to get defensive traits.

Grenadier only need 30 points, the 40 others points can be put in any other defensive traits.

I had a Grenadier that was balanced around having protection on crit, protection on CC, invis on immob, Elixir S at 25%.

Kardiamond.6952:

Oh man you post was misleading. When you talked about HGH engineer, I thought you werre still talking about FT engineer.

Never mind the last reply then.

And yeah, I know we can get some pretty high might stack.

So If I understand your original post, you say a FT can gain more survivability, because they can use survival traits.

But they only have 20/30(if you count the first 10 in alchemist) points to get defensive traits.

Grenadier only need 30 points, the 40 others points can be put in any other defensive traits.

I had a Grenadier that was balanced around having protection on crit, protection on CC, invis on immob, Elixir S at 25%.

With that kind of setup without HGH, I’d argue you’re better off just dropping the Grenade Kit entirely and using the Bomb Kit or Tool Kit instead, which both have the least trait dependency of 20 points.

I’ve always felt that HGH was the only thing that made Grenade Kit a competitive option in sPvP given how (in my opinion) how weak it is defensively.

Flamethrower didn’t need it because Hoelbrak/Fire/Strength runes + Juggernaut + Sigil of Strength/Battle = Omigad dat Might. Deadly Mixture and Incendiary Powder help, but they’re hardly necessary to get the job done in sPvP. Especially if you run it with a Soldier trinket with Knight jewel, you’ll have nearly 3K Armor with 25K HP.

I’m not saying this post is implying that this build would work in tPvP, but it is a fruitful exercise in frustration (for others) watching players try to kill me 1v1 in hotjoin games.

This is a build that started as a HGH build but ended up focusing more on the fire damage of the flamethrower and uses the elixirs for support and not might.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fcAQJAqalspyaHwSfF17IBoH5tu3V0jHT5G/pAbB;ToAg1Cqo4xwjgHLPOek8MsYKA

I tested something similar last night but not this build specifically but I feel it could work. Because FT deals more damage to on fire targets, combing it with burn duration and even more damage vs burning foes it could be rather lethal. You won’t have as much might as a HGH build but with deadly mixture, powder, and the runes being totally focused on burning it seems a fair compromise. It’s still fairly weak defensive wise without a shield though.

Still trying to decide if I want dual pistol for an extra burn skill or a shield for more interrupts.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Kardiamond.6952:

Oh man you post was misleading. When you talked about HGH engineer, I thought you werre still talking about FT engineer.

Never mind the last reply then.

And yeah, I know we can get some pretty high might stack.

So If I understand your original post, you say a FT can gain more survivability, because they can use survival traits.

But they only have 20/30(if you count the first 10 in alchemist) points to get defensive traits.

Grenadier only need 30 points, the 40 others points can be put in any other defensive traits.

I had a Grenadier that was balanced around having protection on crit, protection on CC, invis on immob, Elixir S at 25%.

With that kind of setup without HGH, I’d argue you’re better off just dropping the Grenade Kit entirely and using the Bomb Kit or Tool Kit instead, which both have the least trait dependency of 20 points.

I’ve always felt that HGH was the only thing that made Grenade Kit a competitive option in sPvP given how (in my opinion) how weak it is defensively.

Flamethrower didn’t need it because Hoelbrak/Fire/Strength runes + Juggernaut + Sigil of Strength/Battle = Omigad dat Might. Deadly Mixture and Incendiary Powder help, but they’re hardly necessary to get the job done in sPvP. Especially if you run it with a Soldier trinket with Knight jewel, you’ll have nearly 3K Armor with 25K HP.

I’m not saying this post is implying that this build would work in tPvP, but it is a fruitful exercise in frustration (for others) watching players try to kill me 1v1 in hotjoin games.

Even without HGH, a good grenadier can do really good damage, and work like a necro with marks/well spam.

Kardiamond.6952:

Phineas Poe.3018:

Kardiamond.6952:

Oh man you post was misleading. When you talked about HGH engineer, I thought you werre still talking about FT engineer.

Never mind the last reply then.

And yeah, I know we can get some pretty high might stack.

So If I understand your original post, you say a FT can gain more survivability, because they can use survival traits.

But they only have 20/30(if you count the first 10 in alchemist) points to get defensive traits.

Grenadier only need 30 points, the 40 others points can be put in any other defensive traits.

I had a Grenadier that was balanced around having protection on crit, protection on CC, invis on immob, Elixir S at 25%.

With that kind of setup without HGH, I’d argue you’re better off just dropping the Grenade Kit entirely and using the Bomb Kit or Tool Kit instead, which both have the least trait dependency of 20 points.

I’ve always felt that HGH was the only thing that made Grenade Kit a competitive option in sPvP given how (in my opinion) how weak it is defensively.

Flamethrower didn’t need it because Hoelbrak/Fire/Strength runes + Juggernaut + Sigil of Strength/Battle = Omigad dat Might. Deadly Mixture and Incendiary Powder help, but they’re hardly necessary to get the job done in sPvP. Especially if you run it with a Soldier trinket with Knight jewel, you’ll have nearly 3K Armor with 25K HP.

I’m not saying this post is implying that this build would work in tPvP, but it is a fruitful exercise in frustration (for others) watching players try to kill me 1v1 in hotjoin games.

Even without HGH, a good grenadier can do really good damage, and work like a necro with marks/well spam.

That’s what I’ve always found interesting about the Engi as a class. They tend to imitate or directly copy the abilities of other classes by the use of technology rather than magic.

While that’s cool in theory it’s hurting us overall because unlike ele’s we can’t do everything well, we have to focus on one thing if we want to be any good.