Guild Wars 2

Other jobs get 2 weapon slots, we get 1.

2 weapons with 3 utility slots for: buffs/cond removal/abilities/stun break (surprising amount of abil/sigils seem to already come with stun breaks for a 2 for 1 combo in util slot)

Engineer on the other hand, 1 weapon, 1 slot for a kit: leaving 2 slots for buffs/cond/abili/stun break.

Obviously, engineer can choose to do other combos with more than 1 kit but usually at the cost of survivability or batteries for our toys (buffs).

And yes, there are the tool belt skills but those seem to be semi redundant in the sense of damage kit > damage tool belt skill. So it doesn’t make it more versatile. One of the only exceptions I can think of is rocket boots with its corresponding tool belt skill, but trading 1 stun for another… is such a troll move who ever designed it.

I don’t know, having a hard time seeing this so called versatility.

People keep calling engineer versatile because he has no cooldown on kit swaping.

Personally I think that engineer lacks this ‘omph’ that other professions have. Most of engineer skills don’t have clear purpose or have random elements or are simply worse copies of other profession skills. It feels like Im punching every possible button, without general thinking, because noone of engineer skills really requires waiting for use.
Example: tossing elixirs / elixir B, those skills are just mashed every cooldown to maximize efficiency, but they bring NOTHING to gameplay and are annoying to use.

Imho the tradeoff for having kits+toolbelt kit is way too big to have dmg cut in half or more and losing second weapon set.

Even with kits+toolbelt engineer doesn’t really have more utility than other professions.
Example: Ordinary S/P+SB thief with hide in shadows, shadow refuge
more single target dmg, interrupts, very strong blinds, huge aoe dmg + aoe weakness, very good survivability with SB 3rd skill, heal clears all dots, instant aggro drop for teammates+heal
and then thief can spec into things like shared venoms, steal giving buffs, giving regen to stealthed allies…

what engineer can spec into to get that ‘superior support and versality he has?’ bombs healing on explosion with broken trait that reduces bomb radius? or go dps juggernaut + flamethrower doing less dmg than NPCs while offering broken 2nd skill, single stack of blind or fire condition or only mediocore skill pushback (that is rarely used in dungeons because it annoys more than help)

Engineers are in really bad spot right now, people refuse to admit it, because they think they are doing fine in dungeons, while in fact all you need in dungeons is tanky gear, heal skill + ability to dodge, fights take longer, but are impossible to fail because bosses have no enrage/regen.

Bargaw.4832:

People keep calling engineer versatile because he has no cooldown on kit swaping.

Engineers are in really bad spot right now, people refuse to admit it, because they think they are doing fine in dungeons, while in fact all you need in dungeons is tanky gear, heal skill + ability to dodge, fights take longer, but are impossible to fail because bosses have no enrage/regen.

Engineers are versatile because they have no cool down on kit swaps and the cool down are kits are relativity low.

Engineers are in a bad spot right now “because” dungeons are easy and there is little room for useful heavy crowd control. Dungeons are impossible to fail because bosses have very simple AI’s. “Harder” dungeons in GW2 are dungeons where boss hits harder not smarter.

Lite.3819:

Bargaw.4832:

People keep calling engineer versatile because he has no cooldown on kit swaping.

Engineers are in really bad spot right now, people refuse to admit it, because they think they are doing fine in dungeons, while in fact all you need in dungeons is tanky gear, heal skill + ability to dodge, fights take longer, but are impossible to fail because bosses have no enrage/regen.

Engineers are versatile because they have no cool down on kit swaps and the cool down are kits are relativity low.

Engineers are in a bad spot right now “because” dungeons are easy and there is little room for useful heavy crowd control. Dungeons are impossible to fail because bosses have very simple AI’s. “Harder” dungeons in GW2 are dungeons where boss hits harder not smarter.

So you’re saying that engineers are versatile simply because switching to kits which have mediocre skills have no cool down?

So tell me, of all the kits we have how many skills are viable?

Tool Kit – Only #3 and #4 are actually very useful.

Tool kit 1 – A melee attack that has a cast time? Sure, guardian hammer have cast time too but they do massive damage compared to tool kit 1

Tool kit 2 – 1 Second casting time and a single stack of bleed + cripple(2.25 secs) in a 240 radius. Bleed stack/duration is too low. It’s only useful when trying to run away from opponents.

Tool kit 5 – A very clanky magnet skill at 1200 range. It bugs more often than not because if your target is shielded by a single cell of structure, most of the time you’ll fail pulling your target.

Flamethrower kit – This could have been simply our bread and butter after the nades nerf. But no, #1 and #2 fails more often than not.

FT 1 – Should I even explain? FT 1 misses a lot especially when you/your target is moving. You see your target burning and dancing in the flame yet your attacks miss.

FT 2 – Another buggy skill. I’d love to see this fireball not get sucked by the ground

FT 5 – 1 stack of blindness for a 20 sec cool down skill?

FT Tool belt – 60 second cool down for 3 attacks w/ 3.25 secs burn? They didn’t even bother showing us how many stacks are left.

Elixir Gun – Nothing much to complain here aside from buggy #2 and crap heal #5.

EG 2 – Elixir F bugs a lot and animation is too slow. You’d often see this ball get sucked by the ground or bounce to your target and allies but not receive cripple/swiftness

EG 3 – Would have been more useful if it removes conditions from user as well. They could increase the cool down since Fumigate can remove up 3+ conditions. Putting it on 12 secs + affects the user is OP.

EG 5 – Given that this is a stationary heal, the pulse heal is too low. Could bump the pulse heal to 200~250 base w/o healing stats.

Bomb Kit – It’s more like Pew Pew rather than a big KABOOOOOOM… aside from Big ’Ol Bomb of course.

Bomb Kit 1 and 2 – Even when traited for increased aoe, the aoe is still too small.

Grenade Kit – Every engineer should know this by now.

If you’d like further discussion, please give a more comprehensive/constructive response rather than telling us that we are versatile since switching kits have no cool down.

It’s versatile because you can mix and match the different abilities more easily. I can place down a big ol bomb, healing turret, then fire bomb, and then swap to pistol shield, and get 3x blast finishers from bomb explosion, turret explosion, and magnetic inversion for 9 stacks of might on the group, plus the bit of regeneration from while the turret was up.

I can use confusion bomb, then pistol #3 for more confusion and blind so I can take a confused hit for free, then back to smoke bomb for 4 more seconds of free confused hits.

I can put down a super elixir field and then use elixir bombs to heal everyone in melee range while doing still doing damage.

A lot of skills are buggy and/or underwhelming, but the ability for a variety of creative skill combinations is there. At no point do I feel like I am using skills simply because they are off cooldown, like I do with most other classes. That is versatility.

The hybrid tax though is bullkitten.

If you play this class like you are playing a piano sure we have the same versatility

(/sarcasm off)

Seriously there’s too many skills and way too much switching involved.

tigirius.9014:

If you play this class like you are playing a piano sure we have the same versatility

(/sarcasm off)

Seriously there’s too many skills and way too much switching involved.

Woa there. Rein it in.

“There are too many things!” isn’t really a valid complaint. There are plenty of other classes that don’t have as many skills or the complexity of the engineer—but that complexity is not, itself, a bad thing. In fact, I’d wager that of the people still playing engineer, that complexity is a big part of the appeal. Also, there are builds that don’t require substantial kit swapping. (One could argue about the ‘viability’ of such builds, but that opens the door for a discussion about the ‘relative viability’ of any engineer build compared to other classes, so let’s… not.)

My point is, if the complexity of the class is an object of complaint, play another class. I’m not saying that in a snide way; there are other classes where that complaint would not be an issue.

What is a fair complaint is that the reward should be commensurate with the effort. That is, in the recent class descriptions specific reference was made to the Elementalist’s “skill ceiling” being “exceptional.” The implication being this: they are hard to play well, so in exchange they get to be king of versatility, have good support, control, and damage.

But that same logic applies to the Engineer. I sincerely hope that ANet doesn’t dumb the class down but, instead, accepts that Engi is also an exceptional skill ceiling class, and treats them accordingly.

luckywaldo.6089:

It’s versatile because you can mix and match the different abilities more easily. I can place down a big ol bomb, healing turret, then fire bomb, and then swap to pistol shield, and get 3x blast finishers from bomb explosion, turret explosion, and magnetic inversion for 9 stacks of might on the group, plus the bit of regeneration from while the turret was up.

Grats you just sacrificed good few seconds of dpsing, heal and probably knocked target away from all aoes for few stacks of might. Besides, detonate turret most of the time uses water combo instead of fire or it doesnt apply regen in area, so you are getting 6stacks of might or no bonus heal.

I can use confusion bomb, then pistol #3 for more confusion and blind so I can take a confused hit for free, then back to smoke bomb for 4 more seconds of free confused hits.

Mesmers can maintain more stacks confusion on target, while you rely on target to be standing in your bombs. Unless you are talking about pve, where confusion is useless.

I can put down a super elixir field and then use elixir bombs to heal everyone in melee range while doing still doing damage.

You can after spending 30points into useless tree and I wouldn’t call it “damage”.
Besides, guardians can just pick up mace and Battle presence and they will deal more dmg, heal more, block attacks and have bonus options from offhand, like extra regen/blind, even more blocks for survivability or aoe heal + protection.

A lot of skills are buggy and/or underwhelming, but the ability for a variety of creative skill combinations is there. At no point do I feel like I am using skills simply because they are off cooldown, like I do with most other classes. That is versatility.

Most of toolbelt skills(all?) that engineers bring to dungeons simply give boons or deal damage. I think only exception is toss elixir R, because it simply has no to very little effect otherwise – those skills are exception, like drink elixir c (but no toss elixir c as it gives 1 buff always, so it’s always worth to throw it every cooldown)

I think anet has to learn that every class is versatile, even more than engineer and there’s no point in cutting engi dmg in half to compensate that.

Maullus.1273:

tigirius.9014:

If you play this class like you are playing a piano sure we have the same versatility

(/sarcasm off)

Seriously there’s too many skills and way too much switching involved.

Woa there. Rein it in.

“There are too many things!” isn’t really a valid complaint. There are plenty of other classes that don’t have as many skills or the complexity of the engineer—but that complexity is not, itself, a bad thing. In fact, I’d wager that of the people still playing engineer, that complexity is a big part of the appeal. Also, there are builds that don’t require substantial kit swapping. (One could argue about the ‘viability’ of such builds, but that opens the door for a discussion about the ‘relative viability’ of any engineer build compared to other classes, so let’s… not.)

My point is, if the complexity of the class is an object of complaint, play another class. I’m not saying that in a snide way; there are other classes where that complaint would not be an issue.

What is a fair complaint is that the reward should be commensurate with the effort. That is, in the recent class descriptions specific reference was made to the Elementalist’s “skill ceiling” being “exceptional.” The implication being this: they are hard to play well, so in exchange they get to be king of versatility, have good support, control, and damage.

But that same logic applies to the Engineer. I sincerely hope that ANet doesn’t dumb the class down but, instead, accepts that Engi is also an exceptional skill ceiling class, and treats them accordingly.

My point is that if you have to switch to yet another kit to press 5 to switch to another kit to press 4 to switch to yet another kit to press 3 then there’s too many things to do. It’s way out there with their system. We should be able to setup our 1-5 buttons to choose which kits they will be using when we hit the button to fire off an ability. If they were truly interested in keeping up with versatility and making this class less of a discombobulated mess it is now this would be a choice. Right now. I am forced to use the might stacking FT because all of the other kits are so weak we can’t do anything solo with just 1 kit. Really. Not and not take a huge chunk of damage EVERY fight or spend hours killing the same mob. And the age old troll argument of roll another toon isn’t going to solve it because I’m what you’d call a customer and the customer is always right. Also, the king of versatility doesn’t have as much switching as engis do, eles actually use 2-3 abilities under the same focus before switching to the next one, why it’s due to their class having more attention to detail and more attention to how fluid is the gameplay before the release of the game. Seriously, how many classes have the same hoarder’s type mess of an ability list that engis do that we have to use in a specific order if we want to A: do any meaningful damage B: protect ourselves from being facerolled?

You see if they tweaked the system so you are only switching between two bars preset with kit/weapon we want to use for the 1-5 ability for each ability instead of every single kit for every move then it would be less confusing and less of a piano play.

It’s really not that hard to do. Lesser games have had that interface for years on end when dealing with such a large number of button presses to get the job done and the other classes in this very same game save 1 all have that simplicity.

Bar 1:
Button1: Toolkit: 2
Button 2: Pistol: 2
Button 3: Toolkit: 5
Button 4: EG 3
Button 5: Toolkit 3

See what I’m saying there? (typical fighting style when I’m in tanky pve cond build) I could use the escape options on Bar 2: it would save sooo much time to drop the stimulant and use the shield of the toolkit while running.

Of course if our melee damage or bomb damage was worth a fart we wouldn’t have to run so much would we? But that’s another argument. I’m speaking of course only for pve.

I understand your point; I’m afraid that I just don’t agree. Also, your customer argument… is a joke? This isn’t a subscription game, so it’s already quite a bit weaker than it would be under a different model. Furthermore, I’m also a customer, and since we seem to disagree our positions would appear to cancel each other out.

And, again, I wasn’t trolling you. I was simply saying that the complexity isn’t necessarily a bad thing—some people rather like it. It reminds me a bit of stance-dancing warriors from way back in early WoW. Sure, a warrior could sit in one stance and do whatever… but an exceptional warrior would dance between all three to make the most of them. Engineers aren’t in an ideal place right now because to be even marginally effective they typically have to kit-swap, but I’d hate to see them throw that out entirely.

The core of the problem is not operational complexity, it it’s that every kit requires entirely different trait specialisation to another kit or any weapon combo, and even with the specialisation it only brings one single kit upto the mediocre level. Gear and sigils need to be different often too.

Thus it’s the exact opposite of versatility.

luckywaldo.6089:

It’s versatile because you can mix and match the different abilities more easily. I can place down a big ol bomb, healing turret, then fire bomb, and then swap to pistol shield, and get 3x blast finishers from bomb explosion, turret explosion, and magnetic inversion for 9 stacks of might on the group, plus the bit of regeneration from while the turret was up.

I can use confusion bomb, then pistol #3 for more confusion and blind so I can take a confused hit for free, then back to smoke bomb for 4 more seconds of free confused hits.

I can put down a super elixir field and then use elixir bombs to heal everyone in melee range while doing still doing damage.

A lot of skills are buggy and/or underwhelming, but the ability for a variety of creative skill combinations is there. At no point do I feel like I am using skills simply because they are off cooldown, like I do with most other classes. That is versatility.

The hybrid tax though is bullkitten.

So you:

- trait elixir infused bombs for 30 points in Inventions
- use a healing turret
- use an elixir gun
- use a pistol and shield

that’s a nice healing support build, with indeed some confusion and blind stacking.
Still mostly support in that regard, your confusion isn’t going to kill them.

Your damage is rather low I assume, compared to other professions at least.
Certainly compared to dps focused engineer builds.

Fun build, have used simular myself.
I can’t kill many players with it by the way, mostly support my team IF they stay stationary and weaken npc’s.

Now for the question: you support, but where is your versatility?

And can’t a guardian out-support you rather easy?

Not putting it all down by the way.

We ARE versatile, and for me that’s fun!

But when we specc to be versatile, we end up being weak in just everything we do.
Too weak…

I hardly see versatile engineer builds.
I mostly see specified engineer builds focusing on mostly one task.
Why? Because the versatile builds suck in design and need to get traits all over the place to be worth it… plain and simple.

Tigirius- I think I get what you’re saying and it’s in regards to the amount of swapping? To where it feels like we’re constantly indexing thru abilities just to use one? And instead would want something more like quick slots? Where one button = one skill used?

In pve, I feel like I can be semi versatile because it’s more forgiving. I can burn 3 utility slots on kits so I can have not only 1 extra weapon like other jobs but 2 more to boot.

However, in any sort of pvp environment I have to give up 1 utility slot already for a 2nd weapon. Leaving just 2 slots for survival/buff. Where as other classes get their 2nd weapon with 3 utility slots.