Guild Wars 2

While Anet has been doing some great things for the engineer class, elixir X remains as a slap in the face to the engineer playerbase. It is obvious when you look at the state of the engineer on release that the class was rushed and incomplete. Arguably, the class can still be considered by some as incomplete (see: turret bugs). However, the reason why elixir X is a slap in the face is because it is so obviously a cop-out. It gives a 50% chance of getting either the warrior elite skill Rampage, or the elementalist elite skill Tornado. While these skills may have their uses (and are very effective when applied correctly), both the RNG nature and the fact that its two skills COPIED FROM OTHER PROFESSIONS is kind of irritating.

Regardless of whether people find this skill useful or not, I think Elixir X needs to be changed to something that is unique to the engineer class.

My suggestion is simple. If you are using elixirs, chances are you’re using them for the buffs and likely (though not always) for HGH might stacking or CF401 condition removal. If you’re using them for the buffs, then you probably DON’T want the elixir to remove your ability to use weapon skills, place turrets, use gadgets or swap with other kits that you might have on your utility bar. So my suggestion is to make Elixir X like Signet of Rage or Rampage as One. Some people might be thinking now that I’m basically saying that Elixir X should change from copying one skill to copying another. Signet of Rage and Rampage as One are similar in that they both give might and fury. The difference is that SoR gives swiftness as a third buff, and RaO gives stability AND swiftness as a third and fourth buff. My suggestion for Elixir X is that it gives 3 stacks of might (two less than warrior, to account for engineers that use HGH), 40s of fury and 30s of protection or retaliation. Give it a 70 second CD. Reasoning for this change is that:

1) It’s simpler to apply than remodeling some other effect for the engineer. Maybe the visual effect can be the same as what Signet of Rage has.

2) Engineers lack a good PvE elite. Supply Crate is amazing in PvP and WvW scenarios, and mortar is pretty decent in some zerging situations. Heck, even Nike from DnT runs a norn racial elite instead of supply crate on his engineer. My solution is also decent in PvP/WvW when applied with HGH or CF401.

3) It is inline with the flavour of elixirs, which is that elixirs are basically steroids.

Anyway, I know for a fact that Elixir X needs some type of change. I don’t know if everyone likes my solution, though. It’s an open discussion.

For those of you who actually like the current state of Elixir X, please leave your opinions as to why. I can’t imagine why anyone would want to keep the current RNG, niche-appropriate iteration, but I respect all opinions.

Elixir X: Do 20% more damage for 20 seconds and gain all boons for 8 seconds (3 might). 120 second cool down.

Reasons for the longer cool down is it can last 20% longer (24 seconds total + longer boon duration) and the cooldown can be reduced 20% (96 second cool down)

Not sure it is a slap in the face. It is a short timer for an elite and can be used effectively. I still prefer crate stun and the med kits from it.

Regardless of if you’d prefer the supply crate, a niche skill which is a copy of two other professions skills shouldn’t really have to exist.

Anet probably didn’t intend to be so obviously lazy with the design (sounds insulting, but they have done some great changes since then), but it still stands that its a sore memory of when the engineer class was just a rushed mess as it was at launch. Elixir X is effective in one scenario, zerging in WvW and even then you’d want the tornado 9/10 over rampage.

9/10 of the time i want rampage, nado kitten es off my mates when i knock em off the bomb point becasue of it. Not all elixirs are steroid types. it would make more sense that some of them do different effects. and rampage is prolly the most massive steroid thematically in the game, and iirc, elixir are magic based tech so getting an ele’s elite also fits in thematically

I would disagree that elixirs are magically based technology (lore-wise, it was never said anywhere that they were). They are based on alchemy, if the trait-line is any indication. And while, historically, alchemy wasn’t truly scientific in the way we define it today, it is far more CHEMICAL than it is magical. Part of the engineer’s flavour (for me) is that they don’t use magical elements in their kits. And all elixirs, in regards to video game terminology, are what we call “steroids” in that they’re all temporary buff-related effects. Elixir C can be considered an exception since it only removes conditions. Thematically speaking in regards to THIS perspective, while rampage fits, tornado doesn’t.

It doesn’t change the fact that Anet got incredibly lazy here and gave us an elite with not even a shred of uniqueness or creativity. Plagiarized from warrior and elementalist. I would consider anything an improvement over what we have now, so long as it has at least a little bit of originality.

Agreed, it’s not only slap in our faces, but slap in parent profession’s faces, since we can use this elite underwater and they can’t their.

If anything, i only dislike the randomness of the skill. And the fact that it doesnt give a good condition build on land (UW you can get the necro Plague form). Otherwise its pretty good. I wouldnt want just another boon-fest skill, we have enough elixirs that give good boons. Whatever the effect though, stability is a must.

Eastcorn.5901:

I would disagree that elixirs are magically based technology (lore-wise, it was never said anywhere that they were). They are based on alchemy, if the trait-line is any indication. And while, historically, alchemy wasn’t truly scientific in the way we define it today, it is far more CHEMICAL than it is magical. Part of the engineer’s flavour (for me) is that they don’t use magical elements in their kits. And all elixirs, in regards to video game terminology, are what we call “steroids” in that they’re all temporary buff-related effects. Elixir C can be considered an exception since it only removes conditions. Thematically speaking in regards to THIS perspective, while rampage fits, tornado doesn’t.

It doesn’t change the fact that Anet got incredibly lazy here and gave us an elite with not even a shred of uniqueness or creativity. Plagiarized from warrior and elementalist. I would consider anything an improvement over what we have now, so long as it has at least a little bit of originality.

Elixir C transforms conditions into boons, its actually our biggest steroid in the right situation.

i would like to see Elixir S give us a random assortment of skills based on stats higher power we get rampage with 5 skills mixed in from all the different transform ability that are more suited power and cc, we have higher condition damage we get a plague form and 5 random skills that suit condition damage, this would remove some of the rng but we would still know that we will get something useful for our particular build

I guess elixir C is a steroid then.

I’m not sure what you’re trying to say about elixir S though. This topic is about elixir X, and what you said is hard to read.

Eastcorn.5901:

I guess elixir C is a steroid then.

I’m not sure what you’re trying to say about elixir S though. This topic is about elixir X, and what you said is hard to read.

hehehe i was tired when i posted that i meant Elixir X, what i mean is when using Elixir X it will transform you based on what type of damage your built for so more condition damage you get a form that is more suited to conditions, but if you have more power you get a form suited to dealing damage, that way you get something that can be used effectively with your build rather then the way it is right now which is popping it hoping for the best.

In the right hands, Elixir X can be a great skill. The problem with it is that Tornado and Rampager solve different problems that both require CC. Rampager is for when you have a single target that needs to be repeatedly CCed off a point or straight up killed. Tornado is for when you have multiple people on a point that you need to CC, but not necessarily lock down. One is team fight, one is not. The problem is, you never know which you will get so it can totally screw you if it is wrong. It’s the same issue that Toss Elixir S had. The fix was to make it no random. I think we need the same fix here. Yes, that may mean either getting a copy of another class’s elite OR changing the skill entirely.

Key is, it cannot be random. Elites are a bad place for that drastic of a random effect.

I agree and the fact that it has remained random for so long is somewhat irritating.

However, I can’t accept having a 100% copy of another class’s elite. Hence my opinion that a rework is necessary.

At least both options don’t suck now. It’s just sometimes it gives you a hammer to eat your food and sometimes it gives you a fork to shove in a nail.

Drop Big Ol Bomb→Use Elixer X→Enjoy 20k crit.

Best use for Elixer X.

I always liked copying other classes. Mimicking is a great tactic to use against an opponent, I wish using Elixir X just gave you a random Ultimate from the entire list. Lower Elixir X’s Cooldown and That would be fun and a balanced way to make this Ultimate more appealing than Supply Crate. Because you would have the potential to get an incredibly powerful Ultimate like Thief’s Guild or Moa Form on an engineer would be potent for sure but you also have the chance to get detrimental Ultimates as well.

I know this is not the fix any Engineer is looking for, and honestly I wouldn’t so much consider this a fix by normal standards but it would definitely make Elixir X much more fun, Without ultimately changing its mechanic.

Wolf.5816:

I always liked copying other classes. Mimicking is a great tactic to use against an opponent, I wish using Elixir X just gave you a random Ultimate from the entire list. Lower Elixir X’s Cooldown and That would be fun and a balanced way to make this Ultimate more appealing than Supply Crate. Because you would have the potential to get an incredibly powerful Ultimate like Thief’s Guild or Moa Form on an engineer would be potent for sure but you also have the chance to get detrimental Ultimates as well.

I know this is not the fix any Engineer is looking for, and honestly I wouldn’t so much consider this a fix by normal standards but it would definitely make Elixir X much more fun, Without ultimately changing its mechanic.

The problem with Elixir X is that it’s TOO random. More randomness won’t help. What if you really need to knock a guy off a point and instead you get Glyph of Elementals? How would that even work? What if you try to get a transform, but you don’t have a target and it turns out to give you Moa Morph?

As a short solution, they could make rampager better at knocking multiple people off a point. Then Tornado and Rampager can solve the same problem: too many people on mah dam point.

I’ve been playing Engineer since beta. I have two differently-decked-out level 80 Engineers and a third that I play yet another build on (yes, you read that right — 3 Engis). I guess you could say I’m a little in love with this profession.

I run Supply Crate on all three.

Why? Because our other two options pale in comparison.

RNG is what makes Elixir X so undesirable. In theory, the idea that an Elixir Engineer is this kind of mad scientist who is constantly getting these unknown effects off of her potions is really cool and exciting, and thematically it’s a great idea. Unfortunately, when placed into real gameplay, the idea falls flat. I think that ANet, blindly in love with the idea of this quirky mechanic, has really done the Engineer class a disservice by keeping this mindless death-grip on the RNG Engineer concept.

I’d approve of just about any change that could be made to Elixir X (some great suggestions here already), as long as that change included a removal of the RNG from the only RNG elite there is. An idea I haven’t seen talked about much yet is to create a super elixir kit out of the elite — give the Engineer a set of tossable elixirs in a new bar, like Tome of Wrath, Tome of Courage, and Lich Form perhaps?

Glad to see this issue is getting some attention here…

sunnypsyop.3025:

I’d approve of just about any change that could be made to Elixir X (some great suggestions here already), as long as that change included a removal of the RNG from the only RNG elite there is. An idea I haven’t seen talked about much yet is to create a super elixir kit out of the elite — give the Engineer a set of tossable elixirs in a new bar, like Tome of Wrath, Tome of Courage, and Lich Form perhaps?

Glad to see this issue is getting some attention here…

A full redesign, requiring new art, animation and coding is extremely unlikely. I really think the only doable solution is to make Rampager have an effect that is closer to tornado:

Kick – Now can hit up to 5 targets. Raise recharge to 12. Increase aftercast to .5s.
Dash – Now can hit up to 5 targets. Knocks back foes 200 range. Raise recharge to 12.
Throw Boulder – Now can hit up to 5 targets in that area. Raise recharge to 15.
Seismic Leap – Launches foes. Raise recharge to 25.

Lower damage on all skills by 20%.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

A full redesign, requiring new art, animation and coding is extremely unlikely.

You’re right, it’s unlikely. But they never bothered to give us a unique elite in the first place… I always prefer to offer up the best-case scenario as a suggestion rather than starting off by bargaining with a “no” I haven’t heard yet. ;3

sunnypsyop.3025:

The Gates Assassin.9827:

A full redesign, requiring new art, animation and coding is extremely unlikely.

You’re right, it’s unlikely. But they never bothered to give us a unique elite in the first place… I always prefer to offer up the best-case scenario as a suggestion rather than starting off by bargaining with a “no” I haven’t heard yet. ;3

If the past is any indication of the types of changes they like, it’s better to give them something actionable rather than mystical.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

Wolf.5816:

I always liked copying other classes. Mimicking is a great tactic to use against an opponent, I wish using Elixir X just gave you a random Ultimate from the entire list. Lower Elixir X’s Cooldown and That would be fun and a balanced way to make this Ultimate more appealing than Supply Crate. Because you would have the potential to get an incredibly powerful Ultimate like Thief’s Guild or Moa Form on an engineer would be potent for sure but you also have the chance to get detrimental Ultimates as well.

I know this is not the fix any Engineer is looking for, and honestly I wouldn’t so much consider this a fix by normal standards but it would definitely make Elixir X much more fun, Without ultimately changing its mechanic.

The problem with Elixir X is that it’s TOO random. More randomness won’t help. What if you really need to knock a guy off a point and instead you get Glyph of Elementals? How would that even work? What if you try to get a transform, but you don’t have a target and it turns out to give you Moa Morph?

As a short solution, they could make rampager better at knocking multiple people off a point. Then Tornado and Rampager can solve the same problem: too many people on mah dam point.

I think Wolf’s got the right idea. Imagine if you could have access to Glyph of Elementals or Moa Morph, but it didn’t happen immediately?

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Symbols_of_Inspiration

Without the “disabling” portion, I’ve always viewed Elixir X as the Larceny skills or Symbols of Inspiration from GW 1. With that in mind, I would prefer one of these two options -

1. Elixir X pulls from a much larger pool of elites across all classes (probably 6-8 skills total). Here’s the difference. Activating Elixir X doesn’t activate the new elite. It replaces Elixir X on the skillbar with that of the elite, to be activated whenever the player wishes! There may need to be a time-limit on it – captured elite has to be used within 30 seconds before Elixir loses effect and reverts to Elixir X. The other key component is that Elixir X would not begin its individual recharge until after the stored elite was completely finished. This gives Elixir X a more high risk/high reward aspect because it’s a shot in the dark which elite you’ll get, but those with the ability to adapt and find setups to make each captured elite useful, they’ll be rewarded greatly! Think of it sorta like the last “kit” at an Engineer’s disposal.

2. Elixir X has to have a target to be activated. The target is then scanned and either the elite skill of the specific target is copied to the Engineer’s bar or the profession of the target is used to select a copied skill from the pool of available skills. Now, the Engineer has some aspect of control with regards to what to receive from Elixir X. I would expect this copied skill to be stored on the bar, much like version 1, but have a much shorter window of activation time (10-15 seconds).

Both of these versions would reward smart play with whatever elite is given, instead of just 2 elites highly focused on pure CC.

Malchior.5042:

The Gates Assassin.9827:

Wolf.5816:

I always liked copying other classes. Mimicking is a great tactic to use against an opponent, I wish using Elixir X just gave you a random Ultimate from the entire list. Lower Elixir X’s Cooldown and That would be fun and a balanced way to make this Ultimate more appealing than Supply Crate. Because you would have the potential to get an incredibly powerful Ultimate like Thief’s Guild or Moa Form on an engineer would be potent for sure but you also have the chance to get detrimental Ultimates as well.

I know this is not the fix any Engineer is looking for, and honestly I wouldn’t so much consider this a fix by normal standards but it would definitely make Elixir X much more fun, Without ultimately changing its mechanic.

The problem with Elixir X is that it’s TOO random. More randomness won’t help. What if you really need to knock a guy off a point and instead you get Glyph of Elementals? How would that even work? What if you try to get a transform, but you don’t have a target and it turns out to give you Moa Morph?

As a short solution, they could make rampager better at knocking multiple people off a point. Then Tornado and Rampager can solve the same problem: too many people on mah dam point.

I think Wolf’s got the right idea. Imagine if you could have access to Glyph of Elementals or Moa Morph, but it didn’t happen immediately?

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Symbols_of_Inspiration

Without the “disabling” portion, I’ve always viewed Elixir X as the Larceny skills or Symbols of Inspiration from GW 1. With that in mind, I would prefer one of these two options -

1. Elixir X pulls from a much larger pool of elites across all classes (probably 6-8 skills total). Here’s the difference. Activating Elixir X doesn’t activate the new elite. It replaces Elixir X on the skillbar with that of the elite, to be activated whenever the player wishes! There may need to be a time-limit on it – captured elite has to be used within 30 seconds before Elixir loses effect and reverts to Elixir X. The other key component is that Elixir X would not begin its individual recharge until after the stored elite was completely finished. This gives Elixir X a more high risk/high reward aspect because it’s a shot in the dark which elite you’ll get, but those with the ability to adapt and find setups to make each captured elite useful, they’ll be rewarded greatly! Think of it sorta like the last “kit” at an Engineer’s disposal.

2. Elixir X has to have a target to be activated. The target is then scanned and either the elite skill of the specific target is copied to the Engineer’s bar or the profession of the target is used to select a copied skill from the pool of available skills. Now, the Engineer has some aspect of control with regards to what to receive from Elixir X. I would expect this copied skill to be stored on the bar, much like version 1, but have a much shorter window of activation time (10-15 seconds).

Both of these versions would reward smart play with whatever elite is given, instead of just 2 elites highly focused on pure CC.

Toss Elixir X? Copy the elite of target foe? What if you copy an engineer also using Elixir X xD. This isn’t a terrible suggestion if it has gives the player the knowledge of what they will be getting. Could also be that whatever you hit, you get an elite based on their profession. Something like:

Mesmer: Mass Invis
Guardian: Tome of Wrath
Elementalist: Tornado
Necromancer: Lich Form
Engineer: Supply Crate
Thief: Thieves Guild
Warrior: Rampage
Ranger: Rampage as One

This comes very close in mechanic to the thief steal.

I really don’t understand the argument about mimicking another profession’s elite. It isn’t the only skill that mimics a skill (or even effect) from another profession, let alone all the shared traits across different professions (Incendiary Powder/Dhuumfire). It also fits thematically with the engineer as a jack of all trades.

There could be better arguments against Elixir X.

Chaba.5410:

I really don’t understand the argument about mimicking another profession’s elite. It isn’t the only skill that mimics a skill (or even effect) from another profession, let alone all the shared traits across different professions (Incendiary Powder/Dhuumfire). It also fits thematically with the engineer as a jack of all trades.

There could be better arguments against Elixir X.

…Elixir U.

EDIT: I’m so tired I have no idea what you’re saying. Probably on me. zzzzzz

Malchior.5042:

1. Elixir X pulls from a much larger pool of elites across all classes (probably 6-8 skills total). Here’s the difference. Activating Elixir X doesn’t activate the new elite. It replaces Elixir X on the skillbar with that of the elite, to be activated whenever the player wishes!

Even putting a quirky fun exclamation point of excitement after the statement, it still made me cringe with loathing and dread. If RNG turned me off this skill to start with, RNG on top of my RNG would cause me to ignore Elixir X more than I already do… or would, if that were actually possible.

More RNG is not the answer. Less RNG is the answer.

sunnypsyop.3025:

Malchior.5042:

1. Elixir X pulls from a much larger pool of elites across all classes (probably 6-8 skills total). Here’s the difference. Activating Elixir X doesn’t activate the new elite. It replaces Elixir X on the skillbar with that of the elite, to be activated whenever the player wishes!

Even putting a quirky fun exclamation point of excitement after the statement, it still made me cringe with loathing and dread. If RNG turned me off this skill to start with, RNG on top of my RNG would cause me to ignore Elixir X more than I already do… or would, if that were actually possible.

More RNG is not the answer. Less RNG is the answer.

It’s basically the same thing, just the RNG happens BEFORE you need it, not after.

Eastcorn.5901:

Regardless of if you’d prefer the supply crate, a niche skill which is a copy of two other professions skills shouldn’t really have to exist.

It’s consistent with how Elixirs work in general.

Elixirs all revolve around a certain randomness. Usually related to skills or mechanics present in other conditions (there are exceptions!).

Examples:

• Elixir U: Haste from another profession.
• Toss Elixir U: Anti-Projectile from another profession (originally just wall, when it included Veil).
• Toss Elixir B: A random boon.
• Elixir H: A random boon.
• Toss Elixir H: A random boon.
• Elixir X: A random melee range elite.

I fail to see how the last one doesn’t fit in. I know random effects are massively hated especially among PvP players, but really they provide an interesting element. The two possible outcomes of Elixir X are both melee-range, but outside of that have nothing to do with each other. Yet, they’re not really bad. Especially not with the long-duration stability added.
In return for the randomness we get short CDs and very good trait-synergy (lots of traits relate to Elixirs).

I think as a consistent theme across the skill type, “Random beneficial effect” is quite ok. Elixir X is ok. It’s not superb, sure, but in an elixir build isn’t bad either. Could use a small buff. But really, what was suggested above? +20% damage and all boons? How boring is that…

I think all Elixir X needs at this point is a tweak to the damage scaling. But then the same goes for the skills it copies, so really in the end, it’s fine. Tweak Rampage / Tornado / Plague / Whirl.
Mortar needs more work! It works now with the 2s inter-shot delay, but it either need to be more powerful (boring) or more specialized and unique (yay!). Say, double the radius and make every skill fire a barrage of 5 shots randomly into that – huge – area. #5 shoots 15 shots.

sunnypsyop.3025:

More RNG is not the answer. Less RNG is the answer.

Serious question: Why?

It’s a high cool-down skill that has a 50/50 chance of being something useful for the situation or not at all. If you have terrible luck like me or others, it becomes a question of “is this worth the risk” more than “when do I use this to get the most out of it”. I wouldn’t have a problem with this if it was more concise as to what it does, say for instance (hypothetically cause this is the first thing that popped into my mind) it’s either Glyph of Elementals of Flesh Golem when you use it. You KNOW you are getting some kind of summon from it, just what exactly it is is on the questionable side, but you KNOW you are getting some kind of summon from using this. Currently, it’s either point clear or single target lockdown. You DON’T KNOW what you are getting at all and it may not help you and you may loose an engagement not because of bad playing skill, just plain bad luck.

Elixir U had this same problem, the tool belt was either 2 projectile walls or a stealth veil. I mostly got veil from it when I needed those walls and lost a few or had some engagements lengthened because of that. They removed the veil aspect and now elixir U is a good example of what RNG should be, the base purpose of the skill should be the same on all possible outcomes just the effect or how it does it can be different.

Carighan.6758:

sunnypsyop.3025:

More RNG is not the answer. Less RNG is the answer.

Serious question: Why?

Imagine two different players in the exact same situation. Let’s think about Pre-Buff Toss Elixir S (Either Grants 5 seconds of stealth or stability). Both players are trying to save a teammate from being stomped. Both throw down Elixir S on their ally, but only one of them gets stealth. In one scenario, stability did nothing and the ally dies. In the other, the ally is stealthed, the engineer uses Elixir S and gets the res off. What’s the difference in skill between these two players? Nothing. One got boned by luck and one didn’t.

Now let’s think about Elixir X. Let’s say we’re trying to kill a single person in a 1v1. One person gets tornado, gets immobilized and can’t even reach the target. Overall, he loses more damage over time and gets less CC. The lightning strikes don’t have anything to bounce off of, so the damage is pitiful. The other player gets Rampage and is able to dominate in this 1v1. Who is more skillful?

The point is, unless BOTH options would have worked out in the end with an equally skilled player, then the game is no better than candy land. Even minor differences can ruin things. If you have Toss Elixir U and you need to reflect stuff, it’s great. But lets say there’s melee bashing on you too. Clearly, you’ll do better with Smoke Screen, but if it comes up the Guardian Reflect, the melee attackers are going to dominate you.

I think the best use of this would be a flip over skill that decides what you get. It then goes on a background recharge with the elite that was randomly generated taking over that slot for 60 seconds. Now we can even effectively use Lyssa!

I got it guys, it can replace all our skills with one skill from every profession.

Skill 1-elementalists dagger 1 in fire Attunement Dragons Claw

Skill 2-Thief Sword main hand Infiltrators Strike

Skill 3- Engineers Tool Kits Pry bar

Skill 4- Rangers Axe off hand path of Scars

Skill 5- Guardians Greatsword Binding blade

Locked out of Healing Skills for its duration.

Utility Skill 1- Warriors Berserker Rage

Utility Skill 2- Mesmers Decoy

Utility Skill 3- Necromancers Corrupt Boon.

There… Haha your welcome.

Wolf.5816:

I got it guys, it can replace all our skills with one skill from every profession.

Skill 1-elementalists dagger 1 in fire Attunement Dragons Claw

Skill 2-Thief Sword main hand Infiltrators Strike

Skill 3- Engineers Tool Kits Pry bar

Skill 4- Rangers Axe off hand path of Scars

Skill 5- Guardians Greatsword Binding blade

Locked out of Healing Skills for its duration.

Utility Skill 1- Warriors Berserker Rage

Utility Skill 2- Mesmers Decoy

Utility Skill 3- Necromancers Corrupt Boon.

There… Haha your welcome.

Ship it.