Guild Wars 2

Engineer is, similar to warrior, is a less “fantasy class” for want of a better word, as in they don’t have magic centric themes around skills. When anet were originally releasing information about the game they said that hammers and maces were going to have a focus on interrupts, which is true for mace for warrior, and hammer for for both warrior and guard.

With the popularity of perplexity on engineer is it wise to give them weapons that will provide more interrupts, as a mace shield engi could have possibly 4 interrupts on weapon skills alone, especially with the movement on shield 4 now.
And say you run 3 kit condi, with tool kit, bombs (big ol bomb for interupt) and elixir gun or nades, there arent many condis you are losing out on, especially with say, shrapnel and incendiary powder traits. And the extra interrupts should more than make up for the loss of concussive shot.

I roam on my engi a lot and have a set of perplex gear, I know everyone, myself included wants new weapons, and a solid melee choice on the engi, and even though mace or hammer is the best choice thematically, I’m dubious about it for the reasoning I gave.

TL; DR mace or shield will give engis loads of interrupts which might be bad due to perplexity

Well, good thing that there is no mace or hammer for Engineer then. Perplexity balance crisis avoided!

No sign of new weapons on the horizon either.

Chaith.8256:

Well, good thing that there is no mace or hammer for Engineer then. Perplexity balance crisis avoided!

No sign of new weapons on the horizon either.

Thank goodness we have you here to point this out. I’m sure the entire community was under the apparently wrong impression that engineers do have mace & hammer, and that there are new weapons on the horizon. Life saving information here!

All sarcasm aside, and responding to the OP.

I don’t roam much on engi, so maybe I’m not the best to comment on whether or not it is OP with perplexity. However, from the perspective of pve, I would like a melee weapon to explore possibilities outside of triple kit. There is tonnes of potential builds out there that really use very limited kits, but fall vastly inferior to kits because they lack a weapon. And Mace is clearly the most suitable for engineer.

Now lets look at Mace on Warrior and Guardian. Guardian has zero interupts. Warrior has 1 interupt (excluding the burst which I don’t consider a mace skill as such due to the nature of it being a 6th skill), and lets assume for arguments sake that we don’t get offhand mace as well, which is a different kettle of fish because it replaces shield which carries more then two potential interupts. 1 potential interupt on mace I don’t feel will make perplexity OP. Especially when you consider that it means sacrificing the other conditions and range of pistols.

Now lets look at Hammer. On guardian it has 1 single interupt every 20 seconds with a huge windup, that is more useful for Asuraball then anything actually practical (ps anyone up for a game of asuraball later?). Warrior, sure it has 3 + burst potential interupts I believe. So if we stick with 3, its again only 1 up on shield but lacking the utility of the shield, and the range of pistol.

Essentially, my opinion is that they won’t be OP because it will really only add an additional 1 interupt to current options, at the expense of range and conditions. Furthermore, I would expect it to be a largely power based weapon which makes runes of perplexity less good with it, as they are condition damage based. So sacrificing quite a lot to get that 1 extra interupt.

Flipside, for pve, melee options are almost always far superior, and having a solid melee weapon will give engineers options to explore outside of kits. Especially if it offers some sort of utility that would be cool.

If however, we give engineers the option of double mace… well thats a different discussion. But comnig back to perplexity, I still think the shield with its 2 interupts, and block/blast utilities will come ahead.

Gildos.8460:

Engineer is, similar to warrior, is a less “fantasy class” for want of a better word, as in they don’t have magic centric themes around skills. When anet were originally releasing information about the game they said that hammers and maces were going to have a focus on interrupts, which is true for mace for warrior, and hammer for for both warrior and guard.

With the popularity of perplexity on engineer is it wise to give them weapons that will provide more interrupts, as a mace shield engi could have possibly 4 interrupts on weapon skills alone, especially with the movement on shield 4 now.
And say you run 3 kit condi, with tool kit, bombs (big ol bomb for interupt) and elixir gun or nades, there arent many condis you are losing out on, especially with say, shrapnel and incendiary powder traits. And the extra interrupts should more than make up for the loss of concussive shot.

I roam on my engi a lot and have a set of perplex gear, I know everyone, myself included wants new weapons, and a solid melee choice on the engi, and even though mace or hammer is the best choice thematically, I’m dubious about it for the reasoning I gave.

TL; DR mace or shield will give engis loads of interrupts which might be bad due to perplexity

To this, I have to ask:
Is it wise for a class to have only ranged weapons without using their utility slots to acquire alternatives, leaving them hamstrung by enemies with Reflect, such as Earth Elementals in the Plains of Ashford? To have only two main-hand land weapons, and one water weapon, leaving them without options for a great many things unless they used their Utility skill slots to make up for the lack? These were issues before Perplexity was even a thought, and will continue to be issues until the Engineer is given actual choice in weapons.

In addition, it’s quite simple to get an absurd amount of interrupts onto a build – Shield alone offers two (four, including both the thrown hit-dazes of Shield #5), Throw Mine offers one, Portable Battering Ram offers one, AED even offers one on its Toolbelt, and Slick Shoes can interrupt several enemies per use. Slap Supply Crate on there, and we’re already looking at something like nine interrupts. Would this work spectacularly in WvW or PvP? Probably not. Counterplay, and ICDs on the runeset, would keep it from being the ‘best’ build.

I quit running Perplexity Runes awhile back. I mainly WvW (with 3,000 hours on my Engi) and it was very seldom that I saw in the combat log any significant damage being done by confusion. Certainly when they first came out they were OP, but now, imo, they aren’t worth it.

Edit: They aren’t worth it in WvW, but I do miss them in PvE.

Did you wake up one morning and was like “omg! Hammers and maces interrupt! On Engis that would be so broken when they get them!!!”
First of all, warriors already have this and they can throw on perplex runes (there’s no hidden rule that they cant) and have a trait for even more confusion on interrupts. I havnt seen boat loads of ppl pouring in complaining about this so seems like it’s not an issue. And second, there won’t be any new weapon sets for classes ever. They have a difficult time balancing what they got to even bother with new stuff. So don’t worry about it.

Anymras.5729:

To this, I have to ask:
Is it wise for a class to have only ranged weapons without using their utility slots to acquire alternatives, leaving them hamstrung by enemies with Reflect, such as Earth Elementals in the Plains of Ashford? To have only two main-hand land weapons, and one water weapon, leaving them without options for a great many things unless they used their Utility skill slots to make up for the lack? These were issues before Perplexity was even a thought, and will continue to be issues until the Engineer is given actual choice in weapons.

Hold up just a second, man. Engineer having only ranged weapons? I wish that were actually the case. First of all, I don’t count a ranged auto-attack as being proof of a weapon being range focused if all the other abilities are hugely range adverse. Don’t forget that the Rifle has 2 high-damage dealing attacks that aren’t affected by anti-projectile mechanics.

When I play Rifle, I have a ranged auto attack that’s optimal up to 900. Awesome. I have a Net Shot that, in my opinion, is completely wasted if used on an enemy over 400 range. We have a Blunderbuss which does optimal damage at 200 range. We have an Overcharged Shot that has a range of 400. And a Jump Shot that only does 2/3rds of the damage if used on an enemy outside of 240 range.

Evaluation of Optimal Range for Rifle: 100-400.

Pistol/Pistol, or Pistol/Shield? Optimal Range: 200-600 (due to Poison Dart Volley accuracy and for ability to blowtorch/shield abilities on demand.)

Bombs? Straight up, optimal range of: 0-240.

Flamethrower? 100-400.

Tool Kit? Optimal Range of 0-200.

Grenades? Optimal Range of 0-600. Only exceptions being un-aware foes walking in straight line, computer controlled A.I, and people trying to complete objectives.

From my point of view, I think Engineers need to have more freedom outside of Grenades to attack optimally at 600-700 range.

I would bust a nut to have a completely power focused skirmishing weapon that is optimal at the 600-900 range. Power Engineer playstyle desperately needs it due to their fear of standing in AoE, and everything on Engineer needing 0-400 range to be effective.

Chaith.8256:

Anymras.5729:

To this, I have to ask:
Is it wise for a class to have only ranged weapons without using their utility slots to acquire alternatives, leaving them hamstrung by enemies with Reflect, such as Earth Elementals in the Plains of Ashford? To have only two main-hand land weapons, and one water weapon, leaving them without options for a great many things unless they used their Utility skill slots to make up for the lack? These were issues before Perplexity was even a thought, and will continue to be issues until the Engineer is given actual choice in weapons.

Hold up just a second, man. Engineer having only ranged weapons? I wish that were actually the case. First of all, I don’t count a ranged auto-attack as being proof of a weapon being range focused if all the other abilities are hugely range adverse. Don’t forget that the Rifle has 2 high-damage dealing attacks that aren’t affected by anti-projectile mechanics.

It actually wasn’t about ‘optimal use’ at all. Or even about what range a weapon is focused on. I also wasn’t looking at Kits, if you notice – they’re exactly what I meant by ‘using utility slots to acquire alternatives.’
It was about how the only main-hand, non-Utility weapons an Engineer has access to without using Kits have autoattacks – the only attack that will always be available, the one that gets used more often than anything else – that are projectiles. Two attacks aren’t projectiles? That’s great. They have cooldowns, so they don’t really help much if the enemy can provide reflection repeatedly, or if there are several enemies who can reflect.
For example, when I was first starting out with a Charr Engineer in the Plains of Ashford, I got into a scrap with an Earth Elemental before I’d ever unlocked a Utility skill. Using a Rifle at the time, when they used their Reflect bubble, I used the skills that aren’t projectiles, and killed it (I didn’t use the skills well, as it was my first day playing the game, but use them I did). I was proud of myself for precisely half a second before getting Crippled by several other nearby Elementals, who all used their reflect field before my skills came off cooldown, and I died an embarrassing death of not being able to attack or flee – in fact, it was one of my own attacks that killed me, when autoattack kicked in after I Overcharged Shot the Cripple off.
In short, optimal was not the point. Being able to not trigger reflection with mainhand weapons, not Kits, is something we should be able to do, but can’t.

Anymras.5729:

Being able to not trigger reflection with mainhand weapons, not Kits, is something we should be able to do, but can’t.

The Engineer is balanced around having at least one Kit. If your gameplay experience is ruined because you can’t slot one kit to circumvent projectile hate, then I think it’s more on you to pick up literally any kit (except grenades) and proceed to attack through the effects.

Chaith.8256:

Anymras.5729:

Being able to not trigger reflection with mainhand weapons, not Kits, is something we should be able to do, but can’t.

The Engineer is balanced around having at least one Kit. If your gameplay experience is ruined because you can’t slot one kit to circumvent projectile hate, then I think it’s more on you to pick up literally any kit (except grenades) and proceed to attack through the effects.

See, this is just going to lead to this same, stupid circular crap where I go “We shouldn’t have to use Kits,” and you go “We’re balanced around them,” and I go “That’s stupid, why are we balanced around a completely optional set of skills,” and you go “That’s how it is, deal with it or play a different class,” going by my previous experiences having this same conversation, albeit with others.

I don’t want that conversation. Instead, I’m going to say that I disagree, and always have disagreed, with the Engineer being balanced in that way, would disagree with any class in any game being balanced in that way, and that I have no interest in debating the point, as I will not be persuaded into thinking that it’s fine, just as I am unlikely to persuade others into thinking that it’s not.

Anymras.5729:

Chaith.8256:

Anymras.5729:

Being able to not trigger reflection with mainhand weapons, not Kits, is something we should be able to do, but can’t.

The Engineer is balanced around having at least one Kit. If your gameplay experience is ruined because you can’t slot one kit to circumvent projectile hate, then I think it’s more on you to pick up literally any kit (except grenades) and proceed to attack through the effects.

See, this is just going to lead to this same, stupid circular crap where I go “We shouldn’t have to use Kits,” and you go “We’re balanced around them,” and I go “That’s stupid, why are we balanced around a completely optional set of skills,” and you go “That’s how it is, deal with it or play a different class,” going by my previous experiences having this same conversation, albeit with others.

I don’t want that conversation. Instead, I’m going to say that I disagree, and always have disagreed, with the Engineer being balanced in that way, would disagree with any class in any game being balanced in that way, and that I have no interest in debating the point, as I will not be persuaded into thinking that it’s fine, just as I am unlikely to persuade others into thinking that it’s not.

Sorry man. I’m just telling you how it is. You will never be happy with only one bar of skills because every profession in GW2 has two, baseline.

Many players have suggested a trait that unlocks a second weapon set by foregoing the use of Kits. But Arenanet has never acknowledged the concerns of players like you that simply want to use one weapon set and not have to ever switch.

Chaith.8256:

Anymras.5729:

Chaith.8256:

Anymras.5729:

Being able to not trigger reflection with mainhand weapons, not Kits, is something we should be able to do, but can’t.

The Engineer is balanced around having at least one Kit. If your gameplay experience is ruined because you can’t slot one kit to circumvent projectile hate, then I think it’s more on you to pick up literally any kit (except grenades) and proceed to attack through the effects.

See, this is just going to lead to this same, stupid circular crap where I go “We shouldn’t have to use Kits,” and you go “We’re balanced around them,” and I go “That’s stupid, why are we balanced around a completely optional set of skills,” and you go “That’s how it is, deal with it or play a different class,” going by my previous experiences having this same conversation, albeit with others.

I don’t want that conversation. Instead, I’m going to say that I disagree, and always have disagreed, with the Engineer being balanced in that way, would disagree with any class in any game being balanced in that way, and that I have no interest in debating the point, as I will not be persuaded into thinking that it’s fine, just as I am unlikely to persuade others into thinking that it’s not.

Sorry man. I’m just telling you how it is. You will never be happy with only one bar of skills because every profession in GW2 has two, baseline.

Many players have suggested a trait that unlocks a second weapon set by foregoing the use of Kits. But Arenanet has never acknowledged the concerns of players like you that simply want to use one weapon set and not have to ever switch.

Oh, is that what I was saying, that I want to use one weapon set and never have to switch? News to me.
See, I thought I was saying that it didn’t make sense to balance a class around something that they can simply not have access to, depending on their build. Not even, like, ‘This Elementalist build doesn’t use all the Attunements, focusing instead on just this one,’ but ‘this skillset does not exist in this build, despite the class being balanced around it.’ This includes, for the record, removing Weapon Swap because of Kits, just as it includes lacking weapon choices without Kits, and weakening weapons because of Kits existing.
I would use weapon-swapping, were the option available without having to use my Utility slots to do so – because, really, I just like other skills better. I don’t like a single Kit, and if playing a game means having to do something I don’t like just to not be hamstrung, I’ll deal with being hamstrung.

To put it another way: If Kits were something we could, for example, equip one of as Weapon Set #2, I would use them, and I wouldn’t have a problem with them – but instead, they’re competing for Utility-slot space with things I actually like and have an interest in using, while at the same time being the reason Engineer main-hand weapons are (as stated in the Class Balance Philosophy) weak, Engineer weapon choice severely lacking, Engineer weapon-swap entirely reliant on them, and so forth. Were they removed from a Utility slot, I’d use them – but, again, there’s just other skills I like better.

By the way, I would appreciate it if you wouldn’t be condescending because my opinion differs from yours. ‘Telling me how it is?’ Really? If that’s not supposed to be condescending, how is it supposed to be taken any other way? It’s almost as annoying as you trying to tell me what I do and do not want – which is, of course, the only reason I responded, as apparently I was unclear to begin with, having seemingly given the impression that I want to never switch weapons ever, rather than that I dislike the reliance on, and selective availability of, Kits.

I think I’ve made myself as clear as I’m going to get. This is going about as expected, so far. Didn’t even want to start this – if I did, I’d have made a thread about it instead, or brought it up in a way that wasn’t ‘so it’s not wise for us to have hammers or maces because of Runes of Perplexity, but it is wise for us to only have ranged weapon choices for our weapon slots?’ – but here we are.

Without getting in the whole “you are forced to use kits or not” ongoing war, a subject where I have my own thoughts, but won’t be expressing them here, I will just get back to the subject at hand.

Why should hammers and maces follow the same pattern / utility than the one from the warrior ? Especially considering the fact that the guardian mace has NO control, no stun, nothing.

Just make them uniques enough, and everything should be fine. And anyway, since their nerfs, the runes of perplexity are way less problematics. The ICD was a good fix by itself.

I have been wishing for melee weapons for my engineer since the launch of the game, and those two weapons make too much sense. I highly doubt that a single rune set would make them as overpowered as you think.

Aethyl.7519:

Without getting in the whole “you are forced to use kits or not” ongoing war, a subject where I have my own thoughts, but won’t be expressing them here, I will just get back to the subject at hand.

Yeah sorry about spurring that guy on, I really don’t care about that non-issue at all.

Although when I think of a Hammer or Mace on the Engineer for melee purposes, to be honest, it really makes me cringe when I’m thinking about actually using it in a non-pve situation.

Engineer doesn’t have the proper skill set to be good at melee.. at the moment. Engineer is a survivable class because it has good sustain and you can drop AoE as you reposition yourself out of harmful situations.

If there was an Engineer playstyle or weapon that put the burden on the Engineer to gap-close, and eat punishment in order to melee an opponent, I hope that weapon brings lots of condition removal, gap closers/retreats, and snares, because the rest of the Engineer profession is really unsuited to prolonged 130 range combat.

My Idea for an Engineer Hammer:

Hammer 1)

• Discharge: Chain. Send an arc of electricity along the ground, hitting up to three foes in a line. 1/2 Second cast, range 600.
• Paralyze: Chain. Send an arc of electricity along the ground, crippling up to three foes in a line. Cripple: 2 seconds. 1/2 Second cast, range 600.
• Deaden: Chain. Send out a shockwave in a cone, dazing foes. Daze: 1/4 seconds. 1/2 Second cast, range 600.

Hammer 2)

• Fulminate:
  Strike nearby foes, the first causing vulnerability, and the second hit causing weakness. Vulnerability (5): 10 seconds. Weakness: 5 seconds. 1 Second cast, roots Engineer. Radius: 180. Targets: 3. 8 Second cooldown.

Hammer 3)

• Simulacrum: Fire a slow, arcing lightning hammer that stuns on impact. Simulacrum lingers for 5 seconds at the target location. Stun: 2 seconds. 3/4 Second cast, range 600. 15 Second cooldown.
• Attunement: Teleports the Engineer to the location of the Simulacrum. Removes Cripple, Chill, and Immobilize. 1/2 Second cast time.

Hammer 4)

• Static Force: Cause the ground to swarm with static, immobilizing enemies. Immobilize: 1 seconds. Combo Field: Lightning. Static Force duration: 3 seconds. Interval: 1 second. Unblockable. 3/4 Second cast. 240 Radius. 600 Range. 30 Second cooldown.

Hammer 5)

• Stray Voltage: Leap in the targeted direction direction, evading attacks and damaging foes in a line. Evade 1 second. 20 Second cooldown.

That’s the kind of hammer I would like! Totally power based, can do fine from 600 range as long as it goes in once every 8 seconds, and has defensive tools for the Engineer.

Ability for Engineer to get up very short vertical teleports by attuning to the hammer toss location would pretty much allow berserker builds to juke and survive similar to how Mesmers do, except not usable while CC’d. I would cream myself if that became a thing.

I just gonna throw out my ideas for a mace and hammer.

Mace:
only mainhand (offhand options are still shield and pistol for this set)
The idea behind this set is to have increased soft-cc option while enabling for condi-stacking out of the nade-meta, therefore giving a real alternative for the explosions line, while still maintaining synergy in case you want to combine both

AA: 3 attack chain
hit one: 1/4sec cast time
hits 3 targets
poorly scaling power damage
apply 1 stack of bleed for 3sec
130 range
Animation looks like a strike to the right.
hit two: 1/4sec cast time
hits 3 targets
poorly scaling power damage
apply 1 stack of bleed for 3sec
130 range
animation looks like a strike to the left.
hit three: 1/2sec cast time
hits 3 targets
medium scaling power damage
apply 1 sec of cripple and 3 stacks torment for 1 sec
180 range
animation looks like a wide swing to the knees with yellow mist around.

skill #2: toe crusher
10 sec cd
1/2 sec cast time
hits 1 target
medium scaling power damage
apply 5 stacks of bleeding for 5 sec
apply immobilize for 3sec

skill #3: spin for the win
15sec cd
1.5sec channeled attack
240 range player-centered, moving aoe
hits 5 targets
medium scaling power damage, split over 6 hits
each hit applies 1 stack of confusion for 5sec
each hit applies 1s daze (as far as I know cc-durations don’t stack, but not sure entirely since I never tested it in practice)
movement speed decreased by 50% while channeling

Hammer skills:
The idea behind the hammer is to have a heavy, power-based weapon-set that combines great utility with survivability.
AA: 3 hit chain
hit one: 1/2sec cast time
hits 3 targets
Medium scaling power damage
looks like a swing to the right
hot two: 1/2 sec cast time
hits 3 targets
medium scaling power damage
looks like a swing to the left
hit three: 3/4 sec cast time
high scaling power damage
hits 5 targets
sends out 3 bouncing projectiles, that bounce 3 times
each projectile deals poorly scaling power-damage and 1 sec of vulnerability on impact
one projectile always aims for the target (or chooses randomly if no target is active)
the other two choose the nearest targets in a 360° angle
Animation looks like a swing over the players head on the ground, with lightning bolts moving along the shaft of the hammer before it hits the ground and a similar noise to the elementalist going into air atonement.

skill 2: static impact
6sec
ground-targeted aoe
600 targeting range
240 aoe size
hits 5 targets
1sec daze
blast finisher
deal highly scaling power damage
sends out 5 bouncing projectiles, that bounce 3 times
each projectile deals poorly scaling power-damage and 1 sec of vulnerability on impact
one projectile always aims for the target (or chooses randomly if no target is active)
the other 4 choose the nearest targets in a 360° angle

skill 3: Polarized ground
14sec cd
1/2sec cast-time
340 range pbaoe
lasts for 4 seconds
pulses for 4 times
deals medium scaling power damage
inflicts 2 stacks of vulnerability for 5 sec per pulse
inflicts 2 seconds of cripple per pulse
animation looks like hit 3 of the AA

skill 4: Personal shield
16sec cd
1/4sec cast-time
puts up a bubble that reflects projectiles on impact
double the size of fortified turrets bubble
moves with the player
lasts 4 seconds

Skill 5: Overdrive
20sec cd
1sec cast-time
340 range pbaoe
buffs 10sec of swiftness for 5 allies (including the player)
buffs 10sec of fury for 5 allies (including the player)
buffs 3 stacks of might for 10 sec for 5 allies (including the player)
deals high scaling power-damage
stuns up to 5 enemies for 3sec
animation looks like the player rises his arm and points with the hammer to the sky, gets struck by a lightning, followed by a rapidly expanding sphere of electricity.

Even tho skill 5 is pretty powerful, the 1sec cast-time (and the fact that engis lack stability in general) should be enough opportunity to counter it.

I could have included a stability buff somewhere in this weapon-sets, but I’d rather improve what the engi excels in, instead of changing its general class-traits

I believe anet has stated they wanted to add more weapons to classes in general. Of course, I don’t have a link for this, so that may be inaccurate. However, I do feel that Mace at the very least should be an engineer weapon. There is a wrench skin for it and everything.

As for what I think it would need to do…
Its auto could be melee, and engineer theoretically has the tools to support it (in what would likely be the ugliest build ever…) with elixir b or one of the shoes allowing you to stay in range decently.
While I would dislike ranged auto, it wouldn’t be unheard of. Our existing builds would likely adapt to this easily, depending on the damage focus.

For the damage type, it could be pure power, making it fall in line with guardian/warrior, and giving us an alternative to rifle builds. However, if it was melee, it nearly overlap rifle’s effective range (which is near the 200-300 mark). I still think this is preferable to range, however, as the distance it would not overlap would be long range (600-1200), which, for a mace seems a bit odd. Then again, as we have E-gun as a “long range” option, it could probably fit shorter distances.

So, assuming a melee range, I would hope to see a setup similar to the following:

1- 3 hit chain, dealing a short cripple on the first or second hit, and granting a short duration protection on self on the last. We would need high protection uptime to survive at short distances against other melee types and soft cc is almost always a must for face-punchers.

2- Gap closer, 600 range?, that also applies either a damaging condition (torment, bleed) or a second source of soft cc. If cc, it would ideally be an immobilize, a cripple, or both (1 second immobilize, 3 second cripple)

3- A damaging ability, possibly with hard cc. If it has hard cc, remove the soft cc from 2. Give it a heavy windup and a decent damage coefficient. Alternately, if the mace is being introduced as a hybrid weapon, deal 2-2.5 time auto damage and apply a damaging condition.

As a power weapon, mace would pair well with shield (obvious reasons), grenades, and/or tool kit. As a hybrid, it would… Still work well with those things, because those things work well, along with pistol OH. If it was considered ranged for whatever ungodly reason, slap a bomb kit on as well.

Overall, I don’t know if this weapon addition would change how engineers play significantly, as what we have that works works very well, but it would be nice to just hit things.

Also, magnet→Mace 3→ prybar→toss shield→ nade chuck would be funny as hell.

Yeah, they’ve said they want to have all weapons be usable by all classes. They said that a year ago, though, and there’s been absolutely no movement on that, or even acknowledgement of the concept by staff members, since.