Our damage is traited for versatility
In Public Relations speak:
The Engineer is a highly versatile class. While it doesn’t have the long range capabilities of the Ranger, or the melee capabilities of the Warrior or Guardian, they are comfortable at medium ranges in most fights. They have a lot of control, and use their boons to keep themselves (and allies) alive in a fight. They can use different kits based on the situation, but this extreme versatility comes at a cost in damage on their main hand weapons.
In non-public relations speak:
We want you to do what everyone else can at 10% the efficiency rate.
Bye.
Yeah, when kits take up a spot which could be used for a buff, or a stun breaker, or an escape tool….
We pay for our versatility plenty without an intentional nerf to our damage output compared to other classes.
Furthermore, we are not more versatile than any other class. That assertion is simply not true. How are we more versatile than an Elementalist, who can run with the equivalent of 4 kits (attunements) and 3 stun breakers (cantrips)?
It’s not like Engineers can spec both into healing AND damage at the same time, or damage AND tanking… so how are we “more” versatile than other classes? What is the sense of giving only one class a hybrid tax when EVERY CLASS is a hybrid, and can make hybrid specs just as good as any of ours?
All I can say after reading this incite into the developers design philosophy is, I’m glad this game doesn’t charge a monthly fee. I’ve already paid the purchase price, but no way would I continue to sub monthly knowing that the devs actually buy into the concept of a hybrid tax.
-Travail.
Given the flexibility of certain other classes have it seems rather silly to single out the Engineer and place a hybrid tax on it. In this game all classes have to contribute damage even if they’re specced defensively or as support and in that regard Engineer wasn’t in a good place before the patch, with grenades being the only viable option ( for mobs not on speed and WvW walls, anyway ).
Wait just a minute here…. I read a little further down…
We see the elementalist as the king of versatility. The skill ceiling for the Ele is exceptional, as the ability to leverage all four attunements at the right time is crucial for understanding the elemetnalist. The Ele boasts some of the best team support and control abilities in the game, as well as some great area of effect damage.
So… we get a hybrid tax in exchange for our versatility, while the Elementalist is touted as the “King” of versatility (ie., better than us) and doesn’t have to suffer any nerfs?
That’s just too much.
Here’s what the Engineer has going for it.
- Brilliant control capabilities. Rifle, HM and OH Pistol, and Shield have great controlling skills. Grenade Kit has a darn near spammable AoE blind. We have mines that let us cause AoE knockback with little effort. A cone knockback from Flamethrower, and an PBAoE blind that are both on great cooldown times, and can be made even more usable. Turrets that divide attention, and grant us even more abilities though overcharges and even combos. Slowing effects and immobilizes out the wazoo. A crit effect that causes blind. Reliable access to Confusion, with possibly even easier access than an average Mesmer can muster up. And plenty of burst movement potential from a variety of sources. Engineers dictate the flow of a fight like none other.
- Crazy good support skills. Elixirs and the Elixir Gun… You see an Engineer packing these, and you know that you’re in good hands. Few professions can come close to and Engineer when it comes to support.
- Versatility. Sure, you can’t do everything well all at once. But you don’t need to specialize for everything the game has to offer. Adapting to the situation and having the right tool for the job is what an engineer is all about. You may never be the best DPSer, or the best Tank… But you’ll get the job done, and you’ll do it with style.
Versatility = Being forced to use at least one utility slot for a Kit.
Otherwise you are not making up for the added weakness of all your other skills.
Versatility is about more than just putting kits on your skill bar.
It’s about seeing a situation, and adapting to it. Going to a dungeon with some friends? Bring out the Elixir Gun. Need to protect some points in sPvP? Pistol/Shield, mine, elixir S, and a Rocket Turret sitting behind you will make for some great coverage.
I’d like to be a pure DPSer at some point, maybe… But honestly, we have so many special effects coming off all our skill that we don’t need to be all about damage.
It’s like being a */Devices Blaster in CoH, or a Controller… Or a Shaman in WoW. An Engineer in Team Fortress 2… We have a set-up time, and we don’t have the sheer kill power of other classes. But we make up for it by having intelligent solutions for every challenge. A little more effort, a little more time, but for a job done to perfection.
All professions have some versatility and according to ANET Ele is the KING.
We are the only ones that are made weaker because of our options.
Which raises the skillcap of our class because our choices make a bigger impact on our gameplay.
Which causes less people to want to play our profession.
Which causes our profession to be filled with Engineer Elitists who are really just good gamers who would probaly dominate in any profession (TANKCAT!)
Which causes our profession to get unbalanced because a good Engineer managed to decimate a few ppl with grenades.
Look at the latest
Sigils have CD so we cant have some kind of triple proc like ppl claim.
If anything we just have a higher chance of proccing, which to me seems balanced due to the fact tht Grenades have to be aimed, travel slow, are easy to dodge and have a spread.
Versatility is about more than just putting kits on your skill bar.
It’s about seeing a situation, and adapting to it. Going to a dungeon with some friends? Bring out the Elixir Gun. Need to protect some points in sPvP? Pistol/Shield, mine, elixir S, and a Rocket Turret sitting behind you will make for some great coverage.
Look at the posts above you. Its explained pretty clearly but ill sum it up.
Engineer = versatile, ergo it needs a hybrid tax in the form of less damage and not doing anything as good as anyone else.
Then;
Elementalist = KING of versatility. none more versatile then an Ele = No hybrid tax. Can specialize to do certain things as good, and gets baseline diversity without needing kits in the form of Atunements.
/arenanet logic
What kind of joke is this?
Versatility is about more than just putting kits on your skill bar.
It’s about seeing a situation, and adapting to it. Going to a dungeon with some friends? Bring out the Elixir Gun. Need to protect some points in sPvP? Pistol/Shield, mine, elixir S, and a Rocket Turret sitting behind you will make for some great coverage.
I’d like to be a pure DPSer at some point, maybe… But honestly, we have so many special effects coming off all our skill that we don’t need to be all about damage.
It’s like being a */Devices Blaster in CoH, or a Controller… Or a Shaman in WoW. An Engineer in Team Fortress 2… We have a set-up time, and we don’t have the sheer kill power of other classes. But we make up for it by having intelligent solutions for every challenge. A little more effort, a little more time, but for a job done to perfection.
The thing is, we don’t make up for it. I’ve never seen a group request an Engineer, but I have seen plenty of groups groan about having to “carry” Engineers. the bottom line is, it’s better to support a little while dealing heavy damage than it is to support a lot while dealing very mediocre damage.
In PvP, it’s better to either specialize fully into a bunker build, or a spike damage build. The kind of “support” you’re talking about doesn’t really have a place in the game right now, and it never will. It would take a fundamental redesign of both dungeons and PvP for that to happen.
-Travail.
Look at the posts above you. Its explained pretty clearly but ill sum it up.
Engineer = versatile, ergo it needs a hybrid tax in the form of less damage and not doing anything as good as anyone else.
Then;
Elementalist = KING of versatility. none more versatile then an Ele = No hybrid tax. Can specialize to do certain things as good, and gets baseline diversity without needing kits in the form of Atunements.
/arenanet logic
What kind of joke is this?
Okay, so let’s compare the downsides of Attunements and Kits.
Kits: Take up utility slots. Currently not taking weapon stats into consideration, but that will be changed sooner than later (As according to Jonny Dev).
Attunements: Take up an F1-F4 slot each.
So essentially, we both lose skill slots, just in different spots… I’m cool with that. I wish the toolbelt skills were a little better in some spots, but overall they can be rather useful. Once we get weapon stats, our kits will be that much more awesome.
AND… An engineer loses a bit of DPS for deciding to stick to non-kit skills. You can still be versatile with Gadgets and Elixirs. An Elementalist loses a huge chunk of their versatility by not using all 4 elements.
No, we shouldn’t be hybrid taxed… But I don’t think our baseline damage should be as much as that of something going pure damage kaplow either. Simple fact is, we can use most all of our skills in more than just one way. That’s why we get a damage tax. If we do as much damage as everyone else, while dictating the pace of a fight, disrupting the enemy’s plans, and loading on special effects… There might be some imbalance.
The great lie of engineers: If you want use kits’ skills, you must do extra clicks.
The slowness kills the versatility.
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The great lie of engineers: If you want use kits’ skills, you must do extra clicks.
The slowness kills the versatility.
Precisely the reason I dont use EG for the heal. By the time I switch to it, use the skill, and and the healing finally starts, whoever needed it is either dead or healed up or not standing in the AOE anymore.
Engineer
The Engineer is a highly versatile class. While it doesn’t have the long range capabilities of the Ranger, or the melee capabilities of the Warrior or Guardian, they are comfortable at medium ranges in most fights. They have a lot of control, and use their boons to keep themselves (and allies) alive in a fight. They can use different kits based on the situation, but this extreme versatility comes at a cost in damage on their main hand weapons.https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/news/Game-Update-Notes-December-14-2012
Its on second post. Man I don’t know what to think of kits anymore. Considering we still give up a utility slot I thought that was a price enough for “versatility”
I don’t understand it either. Because it’s not the case that the engineer can hybridize in mid-fight, so it’s in exactly the same boat as the Elementalist: you pick what you want to be at the start of the fight (in the Ele’s case, it’s staff vs Scep+? vs Dagger+?).
So why exactly does Engineer get a hybrid tax at all? Itemization is fixed. Maybe the engineers could get armor swap abilities?
As far as I can tell, the Engineer is a failed design concept. The idea of a mid-fight hybrid class is a really neat one, but mechanically very challenging to pull off. Of all the classes, Anet seems to have the least idea what to do with the Engineer. It’s clear they’ve hit their stride with the warrior, guardian, elementalist, thief, and they’re dialing in the Necromancer (this terror change is a great change) and ranger.
But the Engineer is basically a broken class right now. I think it’s one of those classes Anet envisioned having a high skill cap, but they haven’t figured out a way to do it that doesn’t break the game or fit into the existing framework.
Engineer
The Engineer is a highly versatile class. While it doesn’t have the long range capabilities of the Ranger, or the melee capabilities of the Warrior or Guardian, they are comfortable at medium ranges in most fights. They have a lot of control, and use their boons to keep themselves (and allies) alive in a fight. They can use different kits based on the situation, but this extreme versatility comes at a cost in damage on their main hand weapons.https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/news/Game-Update-Notes-December-14-2012
Its on second post. Man I don’t know what to think of kits anymore. Considering we still give up a utility slot I thought that was a price enough for “versatility”
I don’t understand it either. Because it’s not the case that the engineer can hybridize in mid-fight, so it’s in exactly the same boat as the Elementalist: you pick what you want to be at the start of the fight (in the Ele’s case, it’s staff vs Scep+? vs Dagger+?).
So why exactly does Engineer get a hybrid tax at all? Itemization is fixed. Maybe the engineers could get armor swap abilities?
As far as I can tell, the Engineer is a failed design concept. The idea of a mid-fight hybrid class is a really neat one, but mechanically very challenging to pull off. Of all the classes, Anet seems to have the least idea what to do with the Engineer. It’s clear they’ve hit their stride with the warrior, guardian, elementalist, thief, and they’re dialing in the Necromancer (this terror change is a great change) and ranger.
But the Engineer is basically a broken class right now. I think it’s one of those classes Anet envisioned having a high skill cap, but they haven’t figured out a way to do it that doesn’t break the game or fit into the existing framework.
The real problem is, they made all the classes versatile, then decided to make a class that specialized in being versatile. What’s the point?
You have a class like the Elementalist where they purposefully made 4 attunements work with each other. With the Engineer, we just have random kits. They don’t offer the same synergy that attunements do. We basically just have a bunch of different weapons thrown together haphazardly. It’s not a great way to build a class.
It’s like the devs just wanted to put a flamethrower in the game, so they tacked it on. They wanted to put grenades in, so they tacked it on… but they didn’t make sure all of these things worked together; certainly not in the same way that they did for Attunements, Virtues, Initiative, or Shatter.
Perhaps that’s the answer. Perhaps we need a central mechanic around which all builds would function. “Kits” aren’t actually a mechanic in and of themselves, after all. Perhaps we need something along the lines of Adrenaline or Initiative, where regardless of what kit we’re using, are always working to build a certain resource up. Perhaps we could have “ammunition,” or something of that sort.
That would at least tie all these random kits in with each other. If each of our abilities worked towards a central mechanic, this hodge-podge list of skills might gain some synergy. It might give the devs a clear focus for the class, too, because right now the Engineer has no idea what it wants to be.
-Travail.
I ran with elixer gun, wrench, and nades with a 30 10 0 0 30 build.
It gives more options than most classes can access at once. With kit refinement just equipping a kit gives me an affect(while stunned even, super elixer condition remove yay) and it could still control a battle (nails, magnet, rifle, flash/freeze nade) but it required WORK and WAY more clicking and micro managing than my shout/heal warrior.
Who has hammer/longbow, or mace/shield/longbow depending on fight. 0 0 30 30 10 build with 6 solider runes. His longbow might buffs combined with For great justice give my party more might buffs than an engi could dream of, more healing than elixer guns entire field, AND remove a condition in a LARGE radius.
Oh he also has about 700 more armor, only 300 less power, 8k more hp, with the same exact full exotic setup.
He also puts out around the same damage as grenadier PRE patch thanks to perma fury, with knockbacks to boot.
He dictates the flow of battle far more than my engi could ever even dream of doing, while healing, removing conditions, and making pve crap stick to him, in half the buttom presses.
The only saving grace of engi was net shot/blunderbuss ultimate melee control.
But why bother with that when you can just rawr smash and eat whatever damage the mobs could do.
You know what I’m not seeing in even a single thread?
I’m not seeing even one person coming in here saying, “No, you’re wrong. The Engineer Grenades did need a nerf. They were definitely OP before.”
No PvP victims wandering in here to tell us all how we were “unbeatable” with Grenades. No one coming in here to tell us how we were stealing their spot in groups because our Grenade spec was so awesome. No one complaining about how we were unkillable with Super Elixir.
Usually, that happens with a round of nerfs. The players of that class don’t like it (obviously) but others come into these threads and voice the other side of the argument.
That’s not happening this time. I wonder why…
-Travail.
I was looking forward to getting off work today and logging in to check out Wintersday and play with new sigil ideas.
I stopped by the engi forum while patching.
Im still on the engi forum 2 hours later.
Reloading. Hoping against all odds someone will post some great thing that would obliviate the fact my build just got nuked. Which took more skill than anything short of a full on elem pro, with half the power.
I just dont feel like logging in. Maybe that could change if I read enough general discussion…
Fix the bloody engineer already. jeez.
ft/eg do 0 damage and not our main hand. like real?
FFWC forum moderators. :)
I was looking forward to getting off work today and logging in to check out Wintersday and play with new sigil ideas.
I stopped by the engi forum while patching.
Im still on the engi forum 2 hours later.
Reloading. Hoping against all odds someone will post some great thing that would obliviate the fact my build just got nuked. Which took more skill than anything short of a full on elem pro, with half the power.
I just dont feel like logging in. Maybe that could change if I read enough general discussion…
Hmm…
Well, bombs got a buff. They now benefit from a 9% better chance to proc bleeding than before, without taking any hit to their damage. That is, assuming you have the Shrapnel talent.
That’s all I got.
-Travail.
I was looking forward to getting off work today and logging in to check out Wintersday and play with new sigil ideas.
I stopped by the engi forum while patching.
Im still on the engi forum 2 hours later.
Reloading. Hoping against all odds someone will post some great thing that would obliviate the fact my build just got nuked. Which took more skill than anything short of a full on elem pro, with half the power.
I just dont feel like logging in. Maybe that could change if I read enough general discussion…
Hmm…
Well, bombs got a buff. They now benefit from a 9% better chance to proc bleeding than before, without taking any hit to their damage. That is, assuming you have the Shrapnel talent.
That’s all I got.
-Travail.
Rumor has it that all kits were stealth nerfed to make up for having sigils (just not as bad as grenade kit). This is indirectly supported by the patch notes:
This means we had to tone down some of the kits accordingly, the biggest of which was the Grenade kit.
If the bomb kit was stealth nerfed, then it almost certainly does less damage now even with a higher proc chance on shrapnel, so in fact it may not have been buffed at all but actually nerfed.
Unfortunately I don’t have any pre-patch numbers for bomb kit so I don’t know if it was stealth nerfed or not for sure.
I was looking forward to getting off work today and logging in to check out Wintersday and play with new sigil ideas.
I stopped by the engi forum while patching.
Im still on the engi forum 2 hours later.
Reloading. Hoping against all odds someone will post some great thing that would obliviate the fact my build just got nuked. Which took more skill than anything short of a full on elem pro, with half the power.
I just dont feel like logging in. Maybe that could change if I read enough general discussion…
Hmm…
Well, bombs got a buff. They now benefit from a 9% better chance to proc bleeding than before, without taking any hit to their damage. That is, assuming you have the Shrapnel talent.
That’s all I got.
-Travail.
Rumor has it that all kits were stealth nerfed to make up for having sigils (just not as bad as grenade kit). This is indirectly supported by the patch notes:
This means we had to tone down some of the kits accordingly, the biggest of which was the Grenade kit.
If the bomb kit was stealth nerfed, then it almost certainly does less damage now even with a higher proc chance on shrapnel, so in fact it may not have been buffed at all but actually nerfed.
Unfortunately I don’t have any pre-patch numbers for bomb kit so I don’t know if it was stealth nerfed or not for sure.
Did anyone play bomb seriously enough to have numbers on it? lol
Good for what, bunker.
Engineer
The Engineer is a highly versatile class. While it doesn’t have the long range capabilities of the Ranger, or the melee capabilities of the Warrior or Guardian, they are comfortable at medium ranges in most fights. They have a lot of control, and use their boons to keep themselves (and allies) alive in a fight. They can use different kits based on the situation, but this extreme versatility comes at a cost in damage on their main hand weapons.https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/news/Game-Update-Notes-December-14-2012
Its on second post. Man I don’t know what to think of kits anymore. Considering we still give up a utility slot I thought that was a price enough for “versatility”
I really isn’t even traited for versatility. What they dont understand is even the versatile classes have to be able to solo easily and when you take away damage like they have EVERY patch, then it means we can’t solo anything without loooooong drawn out fights every single time.
When healing doesn’t even keep you alive anymore there’s a big problem.
Balance Team: Please Fix Mine Toolbelt Positioning!