Guild Wars 2

lunyboy.8672:

Kamahl.3621:

Vyxion.6358:

This guy knows his stuf! Glad to have you on my side on this one, couldn’t have said it better myself

He’s also writing it in a situation that would exemplify an auto attack designed to cripple (figuratively) a single target over a raw damage attack.

Since they have the same speed, let’s just look at it like this:
5 seconds of bleeding (we’ll say 5 since reasonable condition duration extension, etc) – 60 damage per second, that’s 300 damage. So they’re about on par.

Except that’s discounting critical hits, which can more than double the damage of any given crit. So, ~2.6x the power scaling with typical berserker gear, begins to put a considerable difference on such damage output. Not saying his numbers are wrong, but I am saying there’s a bit of intentional misrepresentation going on.

Exactly this. OP was talking about a crit build, which is what the rifle is made for. In my post I clearly differentiate and discuss how crits vs condition build would compare with each weapon.

If you are running Rabid armor or something even less likely to crit, like Apothecary, then EG will have it ALL OVER the rifle. But with decent crit potential, hip shot will do more DPS in any reasonable power/crit damage build easily.

What’s more, it’s an auto attack. However, if you would like to show me numbers where condition damage would overtake critical damage in this build in calculated DPS, including things like Rabid gear vs. Rampager vs. Berserker, I would be happy to have that discussion and we can show our work.

And once again, I reiterate that I use both depending on the situation, and am quite sure about my math on this, whether you think those coefficients are wrong or not. I would be more than happy to test and report anything we have discussed here, if only for future users of both weapons to be sure which would be more useful by situation.

I also had this contradiction in earlier posts. So.. Nobody denies the direct damage of the rifle and it’s other skills in a Full Berserker build. I run a static discharge and It is obvious the rifle does more direct damage and the gun is a condition weapon. BUT! In this particular Hybrid build the OP is using the flamethrower permanently. The only time he will switch to the gun is to apply the poison darts on the boss. He will use the pistol for 2 seconds just to apply poison that will prevent the boss from healing. Maybe he will use the shield sills to push, electrocute and create a combo field. After this he will instantly switch back to the flamethrower and continue his rotations. So there is no more room for rifle.

JubeiTM.5763:

lunyboy.8672:

Kamahl.3621:

Vyxion.6358:

This guy knows his stuf! Glad to have you on my side on this one, couldn’t have said it better myself

He’s also writing it in a situation that would exemplify an auto attack designed to cripple (figuratively) a single target over a raw damage attack.

Since they have the same speed, let’s just look at it like this:
5 seconds of bleeding (we’ll say 5 since reasonable condition duration extension, etc) – 60 damage per second, that’s 300 damage. So they’re about on par.

Except that’s discounting critical hits, which can more than double the damage of any given crit. So, ~2.6x the power scaling with typical berserker gear, begins to put a considerable difference on such damage output. Not saying his numbers are wrong, but I am saying there’s a bit of intentional misrepresentation going on.

Exactly this. OP was talking about a crit build, which is what the rifle is made for. In my post I clearly differentiate and discuss how crits vs condition build would compare with each weapon.

If you are running Rabid armor or something even less likely to crit, like Apothecary, then EG will have it ALL OVER the rifle. But with decent crit potential, hip shot will do more DPS in any reasonable power/crit damage build easily.

What’s more, it’s an auto attack. However, if you would like to show me numbers where condition damage would overtake critical damage in this build in calculated DPS, including things like Rabid gear vs. Rampager vs. Berserker, I would be happy to have that discussion and we can show our work.

And once again, I reiterate that I use both depending on the situation, and am quite sure about my math on this, whether you think those coefficients are wrong or not. I would be more than happy to test and report anything we have discussed here, if only for future users of both weapons to be sure which would be more useful by situation.

I also had this contradiction in earlier posts. So.. Nobody denies the direct damage of the rifle and it’s other skills in a Full Berserker build. I run a static discharge and It is obvious the rifle does more direct damage and the gun is a condition weapon. BUT! In this particular Hybrid build the OP is using the flamethrower permanently. The only time he will switch to the gun is to apply the poison darts on the boss. He will use the pistol for 2 seconds just to apply poison that will prevent the boss from healing. Maybe he will use the shield sills to push, electrocute and create a combo field. After this he will instantly switch back to the flamethrower and continue his rotations. So there is no more room for rifle.

That’s fine. With an Engineer, you can play it however you like. I was simply responding to the assertion that the Elixir gun skill #1 would do more damage than the rifle in any build that included a high chance to crit (let alone crit damage stacking), which I believe to be false after looking at some basic facts about the 2 weapons.

Even with a hybrid build, any crit chance will push the Rifle 1 past the Elixir Gun 1 easily, and in fact, the first paragraph of the OPs post was that the FT was a power weapon, not a condition weapon. I am not here to argue about the utility of either, or which OP should run, just that one cannot assert a higher damage output from the EG without showing actual math to back it up.

I personally run p/s in a crit/zerk build because I like the utility and useful conditions like confusion and poison, even with 0 condition damage; in certain situations, I switch to rifle for the net shot and knock back, because it has good utility as well as good damage.

lunyboy.8672:

Kamahl.3621:

Vyxion.6358:

This guy knows his stuf! Glad to have you on my side on this one, couldn’t have said it better myself

He’s also writing it in a situation that would exemplify an auto attack designed to cripple (figuratively) a single target over a raw damage attack.

Since they have the same speed, let’s just look at it like this:
5 seconds of bleeding (we’ll say 5 since reasonable condition duration extension, etc) – 60 damage per second, that’s 300 damage. So they’re about on par.

Except that’s discounting critical hits, which can more than double the damage of any given crit. So, ~2.6x the power scaling with typical berserker gear, begins to put a considerable difference on such damage output. Not saying his numbers are wrong, but I am saying there’s a bit of intentional misrepresentation going on.

Exactly this. OP was talking about a crit build, which is what the rifle is made for. In my post I clearly differentiate and discuss how crits vs condition build would compare with each weapon.

If you are running Rabid armor or something even less likely to crit, like Apothecary, then EG will have it ALL OVER the rifle. But with decent crit potential, hip shot will do more DPS in any reasonable power/crit damage build easily.

What’s more, it’s an auto attack. However, if you would like to show me numbers where condition damage would overtake critical damage in this build in calculated DPS, including things like Rabid gear vs. Rampager vs. Berserker, I would be happy to have that discussion and we can show our work.

And once again, I reiterate that I use both depending on the situation, and am quite sure about my math on this, whether you think those coefficients are wrong or not. I would be more than happy to test and report anything we have discussed here, if only for future users of both weapons to be sure which would be more useful by situation.

No the problem is that the rifle is now being discussed for the situations where a boss or situation would require us to fire from a range far beyond the reach of FT.
Since the rifle only offers an auto attack in this situation the equation would be the rifle’s raw dmg vs the EG’s added utility and for me the EG then wins.
But there’s more:

The EG is a Kit, not a weapon. When you use the EG in a case like this you still also have the pistol/shield so you would also have reflect and block (from range, the block does not stop after 1 hit, that’s only in melee) added on top of the EG utilities. You could do EG+Rifle i suppose but the rifle, again, does damage on that range.

So what do the options have?

Rifle:
- slight advantage on dmg on the range
(That’s it, rest is short/medium range usage)

EG (P/S)
- still got 2 sigils
- light field
- heals
- debuffs
- bouncing attack with condition spread on EG2
- weakness on auto
- bleed on auto
- condition cleanser and poison on EG3
- reflect/blast finisher on PS4
- Block/double daze on PS5
- confusion/blind bounce on PS3
- Poison on PS2

EG(Rifle)
- more dmg in rifle but during it no weakness or bleed from EG auto, can’t have both at same time
- light field
- heals
- debuffs
- bouncing attack with condition spread on EG2
- condition cleanser and poison on EG3

Now when you see this
For me, the EG(PS) wins HARD because situations where you are pushed to far range pratically always put a high demand on utilities.

So yeah, the rifle might have better dps (small margin) but look at the cost of lost utilities.
In my opinion the cost is too high.

So when the situation arrises where I am forced to longrange I will swap the FT to an EG and keep the P/S equipped alongside it.

That’s all well and good, but if you would actually read my posts instead of just glancing over them looking for keywords you would see that I was very clear both times.

In a crit damage build (assertion from the OP), the rifle does quite a bit more damage at range than the elixir gun. And it was directed at Phineas Poe who asserted:

If you need to fight from range, use the Elixir Gun and spam Tranquilizer Dart. It does more damage than both Hip Shot and Explosive Shot, and additionally applies Weakness to every target you hit with it.

Which is patently untrue, and I wanted to be sure that readers would understand that point. I posted all the information needed to do the damage calculation yourselves as to not inundate you with a wall of numbers.

Use the elixir gun, use Pistol/Shield… I use both daily. Yes they have more utility and options, yes they are fantastic for conditions, yes more survival… I didn’t disagree with ANY OF THAT. I was merely stating that from a raw DPS standpoint, rifle #1 is better and is intended to be so.

Don’t make me break out my slide rule.

lunyboy.8672:

That’s all well and good, but if you would actually read my posts instead of just glancing over them looking for keywords you would see that I was very clear both times.

In a crit damage build (assertion from the OP), the rifle does quite a bit more damage at range than the elixir gun. And it was directed at Phineas Poe who asserted:

If you need to fight from range, use the Elixir Gun and spam Tranquilizer Dart. It does more damage than both Hip Shot and Explosive Shot, and additionally applies Weakness to every target you hit with it.

Which is patently untrue, and I wanted to be sure that readers would understand that point. I posted all the information needed to do the damage calculation yourselves as to not inundate you with a wall of numbers.

Use the elixir gun, use Pistol/Shield… I use both daily. Yes they have more utility and options, yes they are fantastic for conditions, yes more survival… I didn’t disagree with ANY OF THAT. I was merely stating that from a raw DPS standpoint, rifle #1 is better and is intended to be so.

Don’t make me break out my slide rule.

Talk about glancing over someone’s post…. I actually agreed to it doing more damage than dart spam in my post (though marginal, the difference isn’t as big as u make it sound, specially thanks to deadly mixture and the vast availability of might stacks in this build and the double sigil advantage).

But there’s more to having to fall back to a long range weapon because of certain situations than purely raw damage and that’s why i made the post about all the other sides to the story causing the EG(P/S) to triumph over the rifle quite hard for me.

Also, i know what’s in the OP post, I wrote it :P

Vyxion.6358:

…though marginal, the difference isn’t as big as u make it sound, specially thanks to deadly mixture and the vast availability of might stacks in this build and the double sigil advantage…

Let’s run the numbers, shall we? [cue 60s lounge music]

Rifle – Hip Shot: co-efficient .65 | Weapon damage: 1095

Elixir Gun – Tranquilizer Dart: co-efficient .40 | Weapon damage: 969

We are going Berserker stats, as stated in the original post, with a bit of tempering:

Power: base (916) + 1003 (full exotic power bonus) + 0 for traits = 1919

Precision: base (916) + 698 (full exotic minor stat bonus) +300 for traits = 1914 (~52% crit chance)

Crit damage: Lets say from gear ~50% + 20% Traits = 70% (220% damage on crits)

Or we can write it as +120% for 52 of 100 hits. | ~62.4% additional damage

Condition Damage: Base 0 + 300 in traits yields bleeds at 57 pts/second.

Hip Shot = Base damage of (1095*1919*.65)/2600(heavy golem baseline) = 525.32

With crits at 52/100, average direct damage is 853.11 points of damage every .75 seconds or in whole seconds: 1137.48 rounded down to 1137 points per second

Tranquilizer Dart = Base damage of (969*1919*.40)/2600 = 286.07

With crits at 52/100, average direct damage is 465.6 per every .75 seconds or in whole seconds 620.8 rounded down to 620 points per second

With condition damage, we can let it sit at 4 ticks of bleed because I don’t want to calculate ramp up for each shot: 57*4 = 228 points of bleed per second for a total with bleeds of 848 points per second

Nearly a 300 point per second difference, or 25% reduction in damage when using the elixir gun on a 2600 armor target instead of the rifle.

What about deadly mixture?

620 + 93 (15%) = 713 add in the 228 pts of bleed for a total of 941 or an almost 20% percent drop in damage compared to Hip Shot.

“That doesn’t seem to be a huge difference.” Not against a bunker golem, to be sure, but lets look at a light armor target as glassy as we are: 920 (light armor total) + 916 (base toughness) = 1836

Hip Shot = Base damage of (1095*1919*.65)/1836 (Light Armor GC) = 743.92

With crits at 52/100, average direct damage is 1208.12 points of damage every .75 seconds or in whole seconds: 1610.83 rounded down to 1610 points per second

Tranquilizer Dart = Base damage of (969*1919*.40)/1836 = 405.12

With crits at 52/100, average direct damage is 657.91 per every .75 seconds or in whole seconds 877.21 rounded down to 877 points per second

With condition damage, we can let it sit at 4 ticks of bleed because I don’t want to calculate ramp up for each shot: 57*4 = 228 points of bleed per second for a total with bleeds of 1105 points per second

With Deadly Mixture: 1008 + 228 = 1236 points per second

And with that, we are back up to ~25% reduction in damage WITH the bleed calculated into the equation.

Please tell me what 2 sigils you can stack that would make up this shortfall in damage if the rifle still gets one of them?

Note: Please be aware that might will just make this disparity higher, as will any added power.

Before I go, let me apologize for my tone at the end of my last post. I really don’t want to argue or be curt with the people on this board, as we should be sticking together and giving others the benefit of our experience.

I have over 1200 hours on the Engie and have played just about every build and trait set up imaginable (except bombs >.<). I don’t write these things up to make people feel bad about their builds or try to prove myself as superior, or right, I just want people who come after to read them and see that there are things that are absolute with out weapons and kits, and glossing over the disparity will only lead to unfocused builds and resentment by the community over the incredi-low damage of our skills.

I say this because I have played a build very similar to yours, FT and all, and was very unhappy with the low power output in comparison to my grenade/SD build. That doesn’t mean your build is wrong or mine is right, I just wanted to be sure and clarify that the rifle scales better with power, and that the Elixir gun is a better hybrid weapon, but you need a significant investment in condition damage to put them on the same footing.

There aren’t sides, this isn’t combat, there are facts and with some math, you can be better informed what your options are and what you may need to prioritize in order to achieve what you are looking for.

Nice detailed math on the comparison of the raw dmg from dart spam vs hip shot spam.

About the sigil.
EG(PS) would be using Sigil of Strength and Sigil of Force while the optimal sigil choice for rifle would probably be air or fire (but then be bad for the build during the use of a FT but since the rifle isn’t even an option during FT-use let’s just say it has fire or air in it).

This means that the EG with P/S definitely has a clear sigil advantage.
Considering the EG also pretty much doubletaps from might stacks due to it’s hybrid damage application it’s a very strong sigil for that kit. And sigil of force is just a flat 5% dmg increase which is always nice.

But there’s more:
Target the maimed would have a guaranteed 100% uptime with an EG firing at the target so that’s another 5% dmg boost the rifle has not (the rifle would be completely dependent on sharpshooter procs for this trait to affect its damage. While surely this doesn’t give the EG another 5% advantage (since it will be active on occasions for the rifle too) i would estimate this trait giving about 1-2% damage boost to the rifle on a rough guess so that comes down to this trait putting an extra 3% in advantage of the EG.

With these 2 steps the EG would be gaining 10% dmg while the Rifle gains 2%.

Considering the fact the EG with PS would have might stacks, the sharpshooter procced bleeds would be doing more dmg than the sharpshooter proc bleeds of the rifle but this is a minor comment and I don’t want to really take it into the equation. Still a point to mention of course.

The difference should definitely be getting smaller with this added data in the equation but the rifle would still be ahead, I hadn’t denied that though.

When the target can heal however, the EG(P/S) wins hard because of poison application (can count that as a 30% dmg increase for the entire party). But that’s situational (target would be able to heal) while this whole scenario is already situational (not being able to FT the fight, almost never happens).

So the difference should be smaller than what your math showed but since the rifle in this scenario can only auto attack while the other option offers so much. The EG(P/S) would just still win for me, and not by a small margin but I suppose you agree on that.

I learnt a lot from this thread. Shame it deteriorates into an arguement about weapon that is not strictly a part of the build.