Guild Wars 2

So in map chat a guild was spamming WvW guild, all professions needed, then when I told him I was interested and told him I play engi. He then told me they aint looking for engi, sigh it makes me angry at the state of WvW team play, the only thing they look for is Guardians, Warriors necros eles.

I main engi, infact its all i play, for that type of play it can fit in with maybe different types of roles. hard CC(Knockdown, blowout), soft CC (AoE cripple and immo), stability, waterfields, firefields, smoke fields, AoE condi removal. The profession has so much to it yet we are not wanted in WvW teams. I know people will argue we are amazing solo roaming, pvp and we are very strong in pve also, yet I feel it isn’t fair that i’m not allow to play my favorite profession everywhere without people not taking us seriously. I think its the lack of knowledge people have on our profession because we can do so much. I also think its just how the WvW meta is atm, I really don’t like it.

What do you guys think on an honest level. I think it is due to a lack of knowledge on engis from other professions overall we are amazing but not everyone see us that way sadly…

I know you feelings man:-)
Sad true is engis are really bad for team fights. No in damage or survability we are great in it but there is very few things what we can offer to zerg. Yes we can offer fields and finishers but our blast combos are quite hard to manage and take long time so its almost impossible to manage it in hectic fight where you must still moving. Also our stability is joke. Other classes can offer simillar things but they have much easier and faster access to it.
Problem is engi is least played class and only very very very few of them are actualy good enough to manage all those thing engi need to know and use to compete other easier classes so majority of player thinks engi is bad from its nature not because its bad class but because its not warrior what you learn to play in few minutes.

It isn’t a lack of knowledge. GWEN classes so what we do, just better and all while not sacrificing so much to get there. Get used to it.

Rozbuska.5263:

I know you feelings man:-)
Sad true is engis are really bad for team fights.

Thank bro I appreciate you knowing how I feel and you made alot of good points in your comment, you say that engi are really bad but i don’t think thats true. Like you say later it just really hard to do what we most do to get it correct, its more of skill then, just like near the start of GW2 no one could handle engi and even now people are still finding it hard to handle. Thank you for that, I’d like to talk to you more about engi stuff if you like XD.

Hmmm, AoE stabiliy, fumigate clears 5 AoE conditions off of 5 players every 12 seconds, AoE damage with AoE heals a plenty. Multiple blast finishers. Great survivability. The ability to put out heavy direct damage or heavy condition damage, depending on the gear. And that is just in the one build I was running last night.

Yeah who would want any of that. I command on a T1 server on my engie regularly, and I offer a lot to the guys following me. We have 2 other engies that command regularly. Others on our server are educated to the engineers benefits

Personally, I feel that you guys need to develop a knowledgeable understanding of the profession before complaining. Then perhaps you can even educate those your complaining about in the OP.

Literally the only thing necromancers bring to zergs is wells, marks and plague. Engineer has about the same amount of stability that necromancer has. Surely engineer has better aoe spam than a necromancer for zergs?

dancingmonkey.4902:

Personally, I feel that you guys need to develop a knowledgeable understanding of the profession before complaining. Then perhaps you can even educate those your complaining about in the OP.

Yea thanks for everything you said, I do know a lot about engis, I might need to educate more people in my server like you suggest.

Zefrost.3425:

Literally the only thing necromancers bring to zergs is wells, marks and plague. Engineer has about the same amount of stability that necromancer has. Surely engineer has better aoe spam than a necromancer for zergs?

Boon ripping is really important.

Necromancers do boon ripping in zergs very poorly, it’s just well of corruption, really. Engineers actually have better zerg boon stripping potential because mine field is only a 20s cooldown.

Black para goner.7612:

dancingmonkey.4902:

Personally, I feel that you guys need to develop a knowledgeable understanding of the profession before complaining. Then perhaps you can even educate those your complaining about in the OP.

Yea thanks for everything you said, I do know a lot about engis, I might need to educate more people in my server like you suggest.

I wasn’t suggest you lacked knowledge about engies, that part was more for the 2 posters just after your OP. I love how people prefer to cling to GWEN instead of clinging to fun.

I wouldn’t get bothered by it, really. They are likely just looking to accomplish something specific and want specific things to do that. It doesn’t mean they have something personally against you or think that engineer has no place whatsoever, it just means that they’re trying to form a particular composition that doesn’t require one. Maybe they already have too many engineers or it just simply doesn’t fit into what they want to do. A little weird that they’d advertise for “all professions needed” and then say they don’t need a particular profession, but whatever.

If you want to change how “in demand” engineer is for something like this, you’d need to demonstrate by example. The reason people stick to a GWEN core is because they’ve seen how it works, or they’ve used it themselves and liked the results. If you can show them something better then they’ll start picking that up. Just discussing, theorizing, and debating won’t go the whole way, people want to see practical results.

dancingmonkey.4902:

I love how people prefer to cling to GWEN instead of clinging to fun.

To each their own. It’s probably fun for them to play this way, especially if it gives them the results they want. It’s not like you’re ever forced to be a part of that group or anything. There’s plenty of other WvW groups you can find that don’t adhere to such requirements.

Maybe they had 15 engineer mains in the guild. Did you think to ask him? Or did you assume and jump to conclusions like you accuse him of?

Although we don’t have super bursts that’s usually required in zergs we are still great for group sizes up to medium.
Actually even if we don’t have bursts we do have great defensive mechanics: healing, stealth, boons etc we got every kind of support a group can ever need. Which you can always mention next time someone says they don’t need engies.

Black para goner.7612

1-3 engis in mid-sized zerg can bring alot, if they know what they are doing.

The biggest problem of the class is the players that are playing it. And “great”kittenengineers that claim they can’t fit in GWEN, they just haven’t learned their class and don’t know what other classes doing. People like Rozbuska, that are smart engineers but seems never played organized group and never tried to compare themselfes to other classes in mature way.
Most of the time i see kitten builds and gear. Very tanky, or even condi engis or ft taging machines.
Class is awesome for small groups, roaming and it’s very good for big zergs. Hard to master this class for most ofthe people, because not many people knows how to play it and when u will find the engi zerg meta by yourself you got maybe 0 engineers in your friends list that u could discuss it with.

People that telling “what engis can do, other classes can do better” ? So if following this logic u don’t roll warrior because he don’t give u stability. The things that engi brings to zerg it’s his things, the things that guardian brings it’s his things, difference is u can have 6 guardians in your squad, but i won’t advice you to have 6 engis instead in 20-30 man squad. I’m playing engi/war/guard/necr. Most of the time engi, but i played other classes only wvw and i know what they bringing to zerg and what i can bring to zerg when i roll an engi.

Good constant dmg, healing and cleansing. LOW cc. Don’t dream, engis CC is low for large-scale. Yes we have enough survivability. ATM devs don’t even see the zerg engi meta because 90% of engis are really useless in 15-30 group, not because of the class though.
The movement and drill differs from other classes alot, u can’t move like warrior when u run bomb engi

And i personally don’t like much when i lead on engi when i see other engis arround…..why? Because i don’t know what are they doing and there is no easy to pick META for them and i know that it’s hard finding right build and stats without any good engi on a side, cause i went through tones of kitten builds with kitten stats to get where i am atm and i can’t say yet that it’s 100% perfect, but i can say for sure that i bring enough to my zerg to count as usefull unit as much as anyone from GWEN. Most of “great engis” is perplexity confusion spammers that need 0 skill master that roaming engi meta and after they stack 20 stacks of conf on enemie they don’t go zerg, they don’t try to invent and break the GWEN meta because it’s much easier and becasue they have “fake” statements of the class and low understanding of 15-30 groups fights.

Keep on going. If u apply to a guild with engi u must proove that u’re the right one and won’t be just an anchor for the group.

Hvaran.6327:

Black para goner.7612

1-3 engis in mid-sized zerg can bring alot, if they know what they are doing.

The biggest problem of the class is the players that are playing it. And "great"kittenengineers that claim they can’t fit in GWEN, they just haven’t learned their class and don’t know what other classes doing. People like Rozbuska, that are smart engineers but seems never played organized group and never tried to compare themselfes to other classes in mature way.
Most of the time i see kitten builds and gear. Very tanky, or even condi engis or ft taging machines.
Class is awesome for small groups, roaming and it’s very good for big zergs. Hard to master this class for most ofthe people, because not many people knows how to play it and when u will find the engi zerg meta by yourself you got maybe 0 engineers in your friends list that u could discuss it with.

People that telling “what engis can do, other classes can do better” ? So if following this logic u don’t roll warrior because he don’t give u stability. The things that engi brings to zerg it’s his things, the things that guardian brings it’s his things, difference is u can have 6 guardians in your squad, but i won’t advice you to have 6 engis instead in 20-30 man squad. I’m playing engi/war/guard/necr. Most of the time engi, but i played other classes only wvw and i know what they bringing to zerg and what i can bring to zerg when i roll an engi.

Good constant dmg, healing and cleansing. LOW cc. Don’t dream, engis CC is low for large-scale. Yes we have enough survivability. ATM devs don’t even see the zerg engi meta because 90% of engis are really useless in 15-30 group, not because of the class though.
The movement and drill differs from other classes alot, u can’t move like warrior when u run bomb engi

And i personally don’t like much when i lead on engi when i see other engis arround…..why? Because i don’t know what are they doing and there is no easy to pick META for them and i know that it’s hard finding right build and stats without any good engi on a side, cause i went through tones of kitten builds with kitten stats to get where i am atm and i can’t say yet that it’s 100% perfect, but i can say for sure that i bring enough to my zerg to count as usefull unit as much as anyone from GWEN. Most of “great engis” is perplexity confusion spammers that need 0 skill master that roaming engi meta and after they stack 20 stacks of conf on enemie they don’t go zerg, they don’t try to invent and break the GWEN meta because it’s much easier and becasue they have “fake” statements of the class and low understanding of 15-30 groups fights.

Keep on going. If u apply to a guild with engi u must proove that u’re the right one and won’t be just an anchor for the group.

I agree engis are great for smaller organised fights (and I played lots of them dont worry:-)) but we talk here about zerg vs zerg fights where 50+ ppl are stacked on commander trying play deathball and simply engi dont fit very well into this strategy.
I dont say we are bad we can do everything like other classes but engi has much higher skill cap in it and that imo is reason why ppl play rather other easier classes and why many engis are really bad witch is again reason why other classes dont want engis in their teams.
What I want to say mistake is on both sides – other classes dont understand capabilities of engi and lots of engis dont understad their class too.

Rozbuska.5263:

I agree engis are great for smaller organised fights (and I played lots of them dont worry:-)) but we talk here about zerg vs zerg fights where 50+ ppl are stacked on commander trying play deathball and simply engi dont fit very well into this strategy.
I dont say we are bad we can do everything like other classes but engi has much higher skill cap in it and that imo is reason why ppl play rather other easier classes and why many engis are really bad witch is again reason why other classes dont want engis in their teams.
What I want to say mistake is on both sides – other classes dont understand capabilities of engi and lots of engis dont understad their class too.

agrred with you in everything u said except zerg v zerg. As i said u got brains, but i hate your blob build still, because it’s just sucks big back kitten. It’s cool for you, but advertising it makes people really go that way and that way is kitttttttten for the class.
There are some classes and roles that MUST be in zerg because we used to that gameplay, but it doesn’t mean u can’t be usefull in zerg as they are.

I can be same usefull with my engi as 80% of GWEN pugs on my server in blob =)

And i said that you seems got low expirience in organized groups like 15-30 people not the zoneblobbing kitten or smallscale. Guild raids gvg? no? IF u run pug zerg withkittenbest comi in the workld with 25 guys that doesn’t make this run organized =)

Hvaran.6327:

agrred with you in everything u said except zerg v zerg. As i said u got brains, but i hate your blob build still, because it’s just sucks big back kitten. It’s cool for you, but advertising it makes people really go that way and that way is kitttttttten for the class.
There are some classes and roles that MUST be in zerg because we used to that gameplay, but it doesn’t mean u can’t be usefull in zerg as they are.

I can be same usefull with my engi as 80% of GWEN pugs on my server in blob =)

And i said that you seems got low expirience in organized groups like 15-30 people not the zoneblobbing kitten or smallscale. Guild raids gvg? no? IF u run pug zerg withkittenbest comi in the workld with 25 guys that doesn’t make this run organized =)

Well you have right I run pretty much only zone blobs or small scale up to 5 ppl our server pretty much havent those mid scale groups. I played quite a lot GvG 20v20 but with different builds. You know that I havent my other builds in signature doesm mean I dont play them:-P I have right now 11 builds for different situations:-)

I love how people talk about engineers as if there is some secret code to being great and that most engineers just aren’t. Nonsense.

The engineer’s utility scales down not up. In other words, you really have more utility roaming and in small groups than in a zerg. That doesn’t mean you are useless or can’t overcome, but your “sweet spot” is not the zerg.

I play an engineer. I play all sorts of specs and have all sorts of different equipment sets.
Yes, the skill level is harder but not insurmountably so. It isn’t a lack of familiarity or skill that drives this, but a cold hard dispassionate look.

There are real problems with the engineer in a zerg that you can overcome but you should not deny.

1. At deep range, we simply have grenades that take too long to get on target. Given the movement of zergs, sure you CAN hit a lo of targets but often you don’t. We also suffer from having so many ranges.

2. Our melee range capability is fantastic with bombs but often is negated by having little stability and condition removal. In other words, we can get overloaded easily. In a perfect World, a bomb engineer moves differently than a guardian or a warrior but must rely on them to avoid “lockdown”.

3) Our utility similarly works much better where it is harder to spam lock us down. Our condition cleanse in fumigate is quite remarkable provided you can get that close without getting stuck in.

4. Much of our healing is “multi skill” (blasts etc) which are far easier to interrupt or lockdown mid combination in a bigger zerg.

5. Like a thief, much of our avoid damage capability came in the form of blinds (bomb, pistol etc). Blind works much better in small groups than AE centric large zergs.

There are ways to avoid being crippled, stunned etc. Once or maybe twice but the quick reapplication in a zerg setting is what really creates a problem.

Engineers play very very good situational roles. In a keep, I can swap quickly into traits and turrets to allow us to use siege without having general range destroy it.

Bombing a choke can create fairly good area denial.
My pull is quite fun too for runners, dolys etc.

What brings my engi for zerging?

dmg:
~4.5k bombkit Auto (no cd, 5 targets, applies vuln.)
~4.5k dodge-proc bomb (no cd, 5 targets, applies vuln.)
~7k BoB (30sec cd, 5 targets, knockback, applies vuln.)
~2.3k Minefield (20sec cd, max 25 targets, rip boons for each mine hit, applies vuln.)
~5.2k Blunderbus (8sec cd, 5 targets, applies vuln. on crit, applies 5 stacks of bleed)
~9k Jump Shot (16sec cd, 5 targets, applies vuln. on crit)
~2.8k Bunker down (2sec cd, 5 targets, applies vuln.)

cc:
Overcharged shot (knockback / 12sec cd / single target)
detonate (push / 18sec cd / 5 targets)
BoB (launch / 30sec cd / 5 targets)
Netshot (2s immobilize / 8sec cd / single target)
Gluebomb (1s immobilize, 1sec cripple / 25sec cd / 5 targets per pulse – 4 pulses)
Smokebomb (3s blind / 25sec cd / 5 targets per pulse – 3 pulses)

Group Utility:
- all bombs / mines heal for ~200
- Firefield on 10sec cd
- Smokefield on 25sec cd
- Waterfield on 15sec cd
- Waterfield on 25sec cd
- 3 Blast finishers
- cleanse 2 conditions on up to 5 targets & 3k aoe heal every 15sec
- 4 sec stability + 1 random boon (might(30sec), retaliation(10sec), fury(10sec), swiftness(10sec)) for 5 allies every 30 sec

Survivability:
- ~21k health (w/o the standard wvw boons, else ~24k)
- ~2.2k toughness
- ~ 6.5k heal every 15sec
- healing skill gets reseted once I reach 25% life / 90sec cd

I know, if you pick a specific category out of this you will find a class / build that does better in this specific category. Then again, to outperform me in each category, you have to dedicate 4 more people to the jobs that i can fulfill already to satisfying degrees, while not even switching a single trait or utility for doing so…
… and I switch my utilities a lot >:)

Rozbuska.5263:

Well you have right I run pretty much only zone blobs or small scale up to 5 ppl our server pretty much havent those mid scale groups. I played quite a lot GvG 20v20 but with different builds. You know that I havent my other builds in signature doesm mean I dont play them:-P I have right now 11 builds for different situations:-)

Our server got midscale groups but it’s mostly rading wvw guilds and you with your knowledge could be good unit in any of them, but it’s your choice ofc i’m not discussing it.

I’m sure u testing alot arround as i do aswell. I got few stable builds but still trying different roles always.

U can see good example of people make viable arguments about engis as Arantheal.7396 and bombsway did.
And i’m starting to meet more and more engis that agreed on points that Aran pointed with slight differences.
U agreed or not, engi got it’s place in 15-30 organized fights, but it’s hard to understand in wich way if u keep comparing this class certain cons to other class cons while this class got tones of staff that is done good lvl while not beeing best at something (but at this point, constant healing could be very high comparing to other classes without big input into healing power though).

I think in our messages we appointed the problems of the lack of knowledge of the class and topistarter must be happy. GG.

I use a different build than you Aran but you have the right idea.
The engineer provides outstanding skills when you have “skill scarcity” in small to mid sized groups. It can do almost everything.
The larger the zerg or the closer you get to Tier 1, the engineer in wvw suffers from not being a pure specialist (there is far less skill scarcity).

At the same time, the noted weaknesses of the engineer are much greater in larger settings (prone to immob, lack of stability, condition overload). These weaknesses were designed to be countered a bit by the CC and active play boosts the engie has. Great for small groups. Not enough for a zerg.

There are tricks to the trade for a large zerg. You can be almost immune to cripp, immobilize etc thru armor, a trait and food. But it is a tradeoff of course. Generally, you simply scale down when the size of the zerg scales up.

Bombsaway.7198:

At the same time, the noted weaknesses of the engineer are much greater in larger settings (prone to immob, lack of stability, condition overload). These weaknesses were designed to be countered a bit by the CC and active play boosts the engie has. Great for small groups. Not enough for a zerg.

I want to add to your list in a very important way, as I have said here before and on Reddit, it’s not just a lack of consistent and viable builds, it’s the lack of consistent and viable GROUP builds like adding stability (Toss Elixir, which 0/0/4/4/6 eles, and most guardian builds have for the team, and warriors have for themselves, usually 2. Other key things are longer lasting water fields, that an ele can provide on low cooldown that last long enough for people to blast (longer than 1 second, thx), while still rolling incredibly glassy with 3k+ fireballs at range and 5-7K+ meteornados.

ZvZ is about 2 things, direct damage and on-demand hard CC, as to some of our single target or short range/delayed effect skills, they are not practical in an “Always Be Cleaving” situation like a clash of zergs.

There is some limited utility in mines, though, and if I HAD a way to build an engie-only zerg, they would run Heal turret, Bomb kit, Mine, and elixir S, so we could all go tiny at once, then drop smoke bombs then B’ol Bombs after they hit their stability, then mines after BoB does his damage, and light the field up with Deeps.

Then, as they regroup, call out for toss elixir S for mass invis, and supply crates once a second. Maybe I will set something up and see how it goes.

Omnitek.3876:

Maybe they had 15 engineer mains in the guild. Did you think to ask him? Or did you assume and jump to conclusions like you accuse him of?

A good guild generally looks for good people. As long as the game has been out, almost everyone has multiple professions.

There are plenty of valid reasons for the discimination and it’s directly due to the inaction by the balance team on multiple levels of problems with this class in traits in not balancing the gadgets/turrets properly and in not balancing the downed state properly.

In every game where there is 1 class that isn’t given the proper attention it’s due, that 1 class builds a stigma over time not because of the playerbase who play the class but due to the developers not doing what’s needed to improve it all around.

that’s exactly what’s happening here. It’s not your fault OP.

Tigirius, last time you said you only do pve…
Did you read the thread title?
Do you know that this lack of balancing you propagate all over this forum is basically non-existent, especially when it comes to pvp and wvw?
Did you know that its only the steep learning curve for the engi that creates the illusion of being subpar?
Not a single time since I play engi, I got killed by something else but my own stupidity. There was not a single situation or enemy I could not take after finding out what to do / how to outsmart them. The engineer is a difficult and skillcap-less class that one can always improve himself in. If you don’t like the trail and error / high apm side if this class then please stop complaining already and roll for something else.

Things that actually need fixes:
The bugs (like for all classes’ traits and skills)
The hobosacks
Thats it. Most engis are perfectly fine with the balancing of their class, what we call out for is more variety in accessible weapons and new skills / traits, since that is what the engi is about: chaos.
The more toys we have to our disposal the deadlier we get, which does not – under no
circumstances – mean that we need a re-balance for our existing traits or skills.

Gw2 =/= other mmo’s, stop comparing them. Open the previous patchnotes, look into the class-specific changes and tell me again that this class’ dev-team is not doing anything. Every single class receives the same attention and if you really want to find out the class that is changed the least, then you end up with guardian. Why? because it was mostly fine from launch and only required minor changes and balance updates from time to time.

Arantheal.7396:

Tigirius, last time you said you only do pve…
Did you read the thread title?
Do you know that this lack of balancing you propagate all over this forum is basically non-existent, especially when it comes to pvp and wvw?
Did you know that its only the steep learning curve for the engi that creates the illusion of being subpar?
Not a single time since I play engi, I got killed by something else but my own stupidity. There was not a single situation or enemy I could not take after finding out what to do / how to outsmart them. The engineer is a difficult and skillcap-less class that one can always improve himself in. If you don’t like the trail and error / high apm side if this class then please stop complaining already and roll for something else.

Things that actually need fixes:
The bugs (like for all classes’ traits and skills)
The hobosacks
Thats it. Most engis are perfectly fine with the balancing of their class, what we call out for is more variety in accessible weapons and new skills / traits, since that is what the engi is about: chaos.
The more toys we have to our disposal the deadlier we get, which does not – under no
circumstances – mean that we need a re-balance for our existing traits or skills.

Gw2 =/= other mmo’s, stop comparing them. Open the previous patchnotes, look into the class-specific changes and tell me again that this class’ dev-team is not doing anything. Every single class receives the same attention and if you really want to find out the class that is changed the least, then you end up with guardian. Why? because it was mostly fine from launch and only required minor changes and balance updates from time to time.

Hmmm, not sure about this… the issues with engineer are numerous. Class balance is a big issue with engies, even the devs have stated the engie is being hard countered by everything just now. Hobosacks are an issue yes , but hell I would live with a Hobo sack if i can have bombs that explode on drop ( its our melee so why should 2 to 3 second handicap be in order?), We need to trait for a wider AOE where other classes get as standard, WE lack any substantial power damage to compliment conditions ( and saying that even conditions are not high enough IMO to comfortably sit in the meta). Every other class can add conditions into power based setups quite comfortably with great results, yet condition engie with its really kitten condie tick is a tickling feather and easy wiped by most classes, thus not strong enough to keep to the meta.

Turrets are not bad but they are not that great, they do not have the key to mobility which is no use for high escape classes which is bad considering every other class with a pet/ minion can have the ability to have buffs from such additional taggers as a bonus. I’m sorry but its this sort of " there is nothing wrong with this class" comments that are simply hurting the class further more in the game – it’s better to work with everyone to bring attention to the engineers issues.
There is a decent forum entry on this issue, it would be good to read it and see what issues there are.

“engis are too OP” comments did hurt the class in the past (think juggernaut / minekit / poison nades / a.s.o.) and “engi needs buffs” will result in the demanded WHILE EVERY OTHER CLASS GETS BUFFS AS WELL.
Meanwhile skillful engis shred meta-builds to pieces in pvp and wvw and the other classes’ scrubs cry for further nerfs. And now engi scrubs, that don’t get the hang of the class (and rather should call for lecture on how2engi), call for buffs instead so they can play a “cool steampunk themed avatar” without investing a single gray cell.

So yea, what will really hurt the engis performance is the ongoing distress call for an unnecessary class cdi.

Arantheal.7396:

“engis are too OP” comments did hurt the class in the past (think juggernaut / minekit / poison nades / a.s.o.) and “engi needs buffs” will result in the demanded WHILE EVERY OTHER CLASS GETS BUFFS AS WELL.
Meanwhile skillful engis shred meta-builds to pieces in pvp and wvw and the other classes’ scrubs cry for further nerfs. And now engi scrubs, that don’t get the hang of the class (and rather should call for lecture on how2engi), call for buffs instead so they can play a “cool steampunk themed avatar” without investing a single gray cell.

So yea, what will really hurt the engis performance is the ongoing distress call for an unnecessary class cdi.

What also dictates a skilled engie and what dictates a scrub is also a questionable affair, you will get different answers to different opinion. I for one as many others do say engies are in no way in the meta right now. The flamethrower damage is pitiful, for all the times there is “immune, immune, immune” in bold lettering when attacking is also not worth thinking about.
Until an engie can be on a balance with a necro where it can counter the reflect of conditions and have the availability of survivability of a high regen, high stealth thief will be the day I believe it. I have played engie since the beginning, i love the class but even I with as many kills under my belt, often say I could have won said fight if I had a bit more attack power. Until that day… !!

1. don’t use the FT. it was designed as a perma stability/low dmg option to continiously pressure enemies. Since juggernaut got ridiculed this kit is broken. exceptions are pvp-decap for its 3 and 5
2. “immune” can only happen if you try to burn a destroyer mob or when you try to cc an enemy while they run with stability. pop your minefield and try again and/or pay attention to their frekkin buff-display. in case of warri or guardian: they can have a passive that triggers stability on the first cc they get. try a minor one (like throw shield) and look what happens.
3. more attack power is always wanted. You can have the same runes / sigils / equip like every other class, while also having many trait options to transmute your stats. running “toughness > power” is an option in wvw. It can be a wasted trait slot or your savior. depends on what you face.
4. trying to overcome a condimancer with condis is futile… for EVERY class. Guess why I play power/cc engi in wvw. And in pvp the balancing is just fine. Try purity sigils there.
5. thiefs have no stability. Engis have a metric kittenton of cc options (even worse than hammer warris if timed right). You do the math.
6. Every lost fight should be a learning experience for you, not a reason to cry for more buffs here.

Pass the build, the runes , sigils and food I try it out and give you the findings.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fdAQFAUlUUpPrdZx6KseNSbBFylWRQnhR06PugAA-T1BEABMp8Ll9HiTHBAPIgGV/5hLIwWKBJFgFjBA-w

there you go.
I have the predator, so I switch often between knights and berserker stats, depending on what I need the most. Almost always I run with the bombkit and mines, but it happens that I switch one of them for toolkit and/or the other for elixir S, depending on me needing more cc or defense. For trolling I run elixir R (self-rezz) and if the place is crowded with necros I sometimes even run with elixir C.

Also the traits can vary…
Bunker down is my default, but from time to time I trade it for healing bombs or automated bomb dispenser. Since I almost always run with mines or BK I have no reason to switch the explosion-tree. The transmute trait (toughness > power) is my default, but also a placeholder for the case that I need protection or stun-dmg reduction.

About the rifle:
It does decent dps. Don’t hesitate to use its auto rather than the BK auto. The dmg might be lower, but you can mitigate it more stable and therefore keep your dps up.
In case of thieves: stand still, drop your mine AND minefield and wait for him to pop up. they like to insta cc you, but you can manually explode all your mines even while being stunned. If he gets knocked back by detonate, then you have the time to leave the cc, turn and further control him with elixir B belt + rifle 4 + netshot + rifle 5 + rifle 3. that usually downs them. then you simply drop BoB on his corpse and dps him with the rifle while he tries to teleport around…

So yea, l2adapt to the situation and you should do fine.

Awesome, Will have a go after work tonight and test it on some WVW, looking forward to it. TY

Well, I agree with Bombsaway.7198 and Arantheal.7396 and much that you guys told are what I see when I play my Eng. He is my main, but I play WvW a lot and my guild commanders always ask me to bring my Warrior, Ele or Necro depending of situation, but never ask me to bring Eng. So, what my warrior, ele or necro have that my eng can’t bring to zerg battle? Well, as you guys told, maybe are the stability and fast stun that the warrior with a hammer have, or the constant condition remove that my ele (d/d) have or the strong debuffer/damage and few survability that a power necro have, but eng can do something that no other class can do that is your strongest point is be the “jack of all trades”. I know you will told “master of none” and I agree, being a “jack of all trades master of none” is really anoing but when we are inside a large scale battle with other classes that can supply one or two lacks like stability or condition removal (guardians can do it and every battle we need one) the eng can help a lot with damage, fields and small and constant heal.
Efficient Engs are rare because it demands time and knowledge to master and other more straight oriented classes as warriors or ele don’t. I played GW1 sinse 2006 and I see GW2 borning and taking his form and I remember the order of classes launch and there are launched in a complexity play order, and Eng was not the first, neither the seccond, but one of the last, first was Ele and seccond War.
This point I can told that Eng is a efficient zerg WvW class with restrictions and always need a Guardian to help in large scale battles. But no worries we can help and make the difference because we can play 2 roles at same time, but no all, soo, one Guardian and one Eng can be equivalent to 3 mans, but it demands time and knoledge to master.
I’ll try this build to zerg, but always have in mind that you will need some help and can change roles all the time.
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fdAQFAUlUUpdrtdxPLseNiaBF6ouxAIyQmlPGhDA-T1xHwAdV/ZwDA4tOglK/mrEEwFAQ0+DkBwcCA-w

mzt.3270:

Arantheal.7396:

Tigirius, last time you said you only do pve…

Hmmm, not sure about this… the issues with engineer are numerous. Class balance is a big issue with engies, even the devs have stated the engie is being hard countered by everything just now. Hobosacks are an issue yes , but hell I would live with a Hobo sack if i can have bombs that explode on drop ( its our melee so why should 2 to 3 second handicap be in order?), We need to trait for a wider AOE where other classes get as standard, WE lack any substantial power damage to compliment conditions ( and saying that even conditions are not high enough IMO to comfortably sit in the meta). Every other class can add conditions into power based setups quite comfortably with great results, yet condition engie with its really kitten condie tick is a tickling feather and easy wiped by most classes, thus not strong enough to keep to the meta.

Turrets are not bad but they are not that great, they do not have the key to mobility which is no use for high escape classes which is bad considering every other class with a pet/ minion can have the ability to have buffs from such additional taggers as a bonus. I’m sorry but its this sort of " there is nothing wrong with this class" comments that are simply hurting the class further more in the game – it’s better to work with everyone to bring attention to the engineers issues.
There is a decent forum entry on this issue, it would be good to read it and see what issues there are.

Seriously Arantheal, you need to learn what the term Troll is because trust me, out of the two of us, it’s definitely NOT me. Do you login everyday and look for my posts now? sheesh smh

Anyways MZT has it right. Even in PVP there are some issues because some aspects of the class cross over, like Kit Refinement being a complete joke now.

You’re wrong about four things Arantheal and “here they are”:

*Do you know that this lack of balancing you propagate all over this forum is basically non-existent…

Uhm actually no I don’t because I play multiple toons I’ve both followed and haven’t followed the cookie cutter builds for them all and I’ve seen the difference their traits make. But you wouldn’t know that would you since you’ve ignored everything I’ve ever written on the subject and just follow me around from place to place to yell at me for whatever reason.

*Did you know that its only the steep learning curve for the engi that creates the illusion of being subpar?

As I’ve demonstrated multiple times, it’s not the learning curve that’s the problem, most of the Engineer’s issues lie in the traits being subpar compared to other classes. For example, we’re an adventurer class, but one of the only few boon systems we have is when we reach below 75% hitpoints whereas other classes obtain their boons through the use of the normal attacks on their weapons. There are plenty of other such things and this is considered a minor one I would agree but it does present a problem and validates my point.

*Not a single time since I play engi, I got killed by something else but my own stupidity.

I can tell you that that’s a lie for one major reason. In Open world as it’s been documented by other posters, people have been complaining and rightly so that when there are numerous AOE fields going off at once, they cannot see the boss. It’s a well documented fact that’s been there since BWE2 and since we all know that the devs have a tendency to A: not use the aggro system and B: make bosses have 1 shot kill moves I’d say that you probably died multiple times over the past two years because you simply didn’t know you were the newest target or couldn’t see the boss. This of course would have happened even if you played a skritt but fine have it your way.

*Gw2 =/= other mmo’s, stop comparing them.

First off, under the hood of any well thought out combat system, the design is the same. DoTs, Burst, Power, HoTs, Direct Heals, Cures, Pets….It’s the same in every game. It doesn’t matter what they are called they are mathematically the same system.

And secondly, no by comparing what mmo developers have done already, we can see multiple solutions to the problems that this game’s combat system has. We can improve upon it. It happens in every other industry but the MMO industry where companies go out and find out what other companies are doing, and then if it’s a well established update to the system they use it. MMO development in recent years is nothing like that, we actually have whole teams doing things their way without ever checking to see if it was done before and to see the consequences. My example of this.? DR. Nuff said.

And here we have a perfect example for a guy that definitively does not get the hang of the class (or the game) and rather calls for buffs to accommodate his lack of skill than a lecture about how2engi.

what is a troll: a guy who spreads false informations (check) as often as possible (check) to annoy as many people as possible (check). But instead of causing people to jump each others throat you just make clear how incapable of learning you are. Sad.

But lets debunk your points individually:

1. the claim that I follow you around: look who posted here first of us both (and what) and who just came here to slur about the class itself, and that even outside of the content he’s familiar with.

2. the claim that our boon-system is imbalanced: HgH might stacking, perma might from just equipping a kit (even tho the kit itself is trash, but w/e. Some actually make good use of it (see wolfeneer)), perma swiftness from kit swapping, might from using a healing skill, protection proc from being cc’d, protection proc from being crited, aegis proc from being hit and even high boon uptimes from turrets, a.s.o.

3. the claim that you know better than me what killed me: lol. just lol. Actually I never got confused by “too many aoe’s” and “couldn’t find my target” (and that comes from someone who regularly dives into the melee train of zergs) and the onehit killers from the PvE bosses are mostly charged attacks that have a clearly visible animation, therefore you just have to dodge in the right moment. I really don’t see your problem here… it has not even something to do with being new and not being able to foresee the unknown since map-completion and story missions don’t even bring these challenges for leveling up.

4. The claim that gw2 == other mmo’s: do other mmo’s have a mechanic that allows you to be invincible at will, almost always if you want to? As far as I know, only very few have them, and this little option, that completely nullifies boss-attacks is why movement-bobs get punished that hard for not dodging / blocking in the right moment. If some bosses had no one-hit killers / deathzones, the dodging system would not make sense at all. The game challenges you to improve your tactics, especially in PvE. And since they can one-hit kill, the aggro system is not in place, so they distribute their attacks to everybody in the group, forcing them to follow the intended gameplay of fast reflexes and high apm. Having one tank getting all the heat while an ele and other casters simply stand around and cast like turrets is especially the reason why people abandoned other mmo’s and rather started gw2. The math for dmg and healing may be the same, but the mitigation and avoidance is the true difference in this system.

Try out the build I’ve posted, together with the instructions if you ever intent to see the game mechanics in a way they are meant for: player versus player. be it open and strategic in wvw or narrow and fast in spvp. Also ask other experienced engis on how to improve.

Regardless how “much” you post, it will not make your point right. deal with it.
I rest my case here.

video ex-le of good engi build for wvw.

Yes the diversity is pretty low in best engis one of the class problems but it’s not like mesm, thief or ranger atm it’s much higher input for zerg.

Hvaran.6327:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHHTeP_Xh68

video ex-le of good engi build for wvw.

Yes the diversity is pretty low in best engis one of the class problems but it’s not like mesm, thief or ranger atm it’s much higher input for zerg.

Only because of the innate nature of the class. Sure that helps to be a jack of all trades and it helps especially when certain aspects of the class are nerfed or taken out entirely but it’s no fix for the problems that the balance team has created over the past 2 years for the class. We need a CDI.

tigirius.9014:

Only because of the innate nature of the class. Sure that helps to be a jack of all trades and it helps especially when certain aspects of the class are nerfed or taken out entirely but it’s no fix for the problems that the balance team has created over the past 2 years for the class. We need a CDI.

I agree that engi class is inbalanced in such gameplay (and some other aspects).

I dissagree that this class is useless and all other classes are better in wvw largescale.

Hvaran.6327:

tigirius.9014:

Only because of the innate nature of the class. Sure that helps to be a jack of all trades and it helps especially when certain aspects of the class are nerfed or taken out entirely but it’s no fix for the problems that the balance team has created over the past 2 years for the class. We need a CDI.

I agree that engi class is inbalanced in such gameplay (and some other aspects).

I dissagree that this class is useless and all other classes are better in wvw largescale.

Do you agree that it’s high time for a CDI for the most nerfed and most beta’d class in the game?

no
[This is a space filler to pass the min 15 letter mark. ty a-net]

tigirius.9014:

Do you agree that it’s high time for a CDI for the most nerfed and most beta’d class in the game?

I haven’t seen a single CDI, dunno what it will lead to.
But i would like to see devs attention to balancing classes to really most popular game modes and not only #esports.

Hvaran.6327:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHHTeP_Xh68

video ex-le of good engi build for wvw.

Yes the diversity is pretty low in best engis one of the class problems but it’s not like mesm, thief or ranger atm it’s much higher input for zerg.

Is a good Eng in a Zerg, but see that this video reforce my points, he always walk with the guardians, that probably remove their conditions and give Stability. Eng has a lack of condition removal and stability, only 4 sec with the elixir B toolkit is few. For this reason we need a guardian besides us in a zerg, but the amount of damage and other possibilitys like water fields is great, but requires training and study.

Hvaran.6327:

tigirius.9014:

Do you agree that it’s high time for a CDI for the most nerfed and most beta’d class in the game?

I haven’t seen a single CDI, dunno what it will lead to.
But i would like to see devs attention to balancing classes to really most popular game modes and not only #esports.

Absolutely agree with you. When they say “play as you like” I would expect nothing less.

Why do I not like to play my warri?
because its a skill-less class that you can master within 2 weeks.
same with guardian, necro or ranger. Classes that require high apm and at least a single gray cell are thief, mesmer, engi and ele. And yes, ofc you will find scrubs within eles and really outstanding players within warriors, but these are the exception of the rule.

So as you can see we have 4 casual classes (that can be loads of fun) and 4 specialist classes that have to work for their effort. I don’t see why anyone would buff the classes that can achieve better than the casual ones, especially since they are a whole lot of fun and have a long way that you have to go to master them.

I can see why PvE scrubs want to play a steampunkish engineer so they have something “edgy” to droll over about, but just because you’re incapable of achieving the same mindless and easy gameplay with these classes in PvE does not mean that you have the right to call for OP (in relativity to the class’ already existing capabilities) buffs that ruin the fun for those who like to work for their success.

I mean – seriously – PvE only exists for RPG’ers and gold farming. Why would you ever want to “master” repetitive content that gives you nothing but the same dull loot-chests you can get from pvp as well. Sometimes I feel like speedrunning arah, but I’ve never done any HotW path more than once since this dungeon is completely boring(my personal opinion). Still I unlocked all Koda skins just from stomping players all day long. Why would I ever care about a pvp/wvw class being adjusted to AI-bashing?
Thats what zerker warris are for (my personal opinion again).

You can choose the content and the class for your liking, no one is gonna say “Eww engi” in pve, but trying to mix the class up to something that fits your individual, content-specific incapabilities is nothing but kittened.

It’s the hobo-sacks.
No one wants to be around them. Probably because they haven’t been washed in over a year and a half.

My friend made a hardcore WvW guild. Of course I joined this and played on my engi. Ok I did dmg and killed people, but other than that I couldnt really contribute with anything. Thats the main reason I made guardian. Guardian offer a lot of stability, condi removal and heals. Also they have descent dps for zerg. Not that I dont like engi’s, I play it all the time unless im in raids. Sure engineers might be useful in a lot of things, but the other classes specilize in the things engi do some things in.
Engi: Descent in more or less everything (except stability)
Other classes: Spezilice in the things engi’s do

HermiBoi.4791:

My friend made a hardcore WvW guild. Of course I joined this and played on my engi. Ok I did dmg and killed people, but other than that I couldnt really contribute with anything. Thats the main reason I made guardian. Guardian offer a lot of stability, condi removal and heals. Also they have descent dps for zerg. Not that I dont like engi’s, I play it all the time unless im in raids. Sure engineers might be useful in a lot of things, but the other classes specilize in the things engi do some things in.
Engi: Descent in more or less everything (except stability)
Other classes: Spezilice in the things engi’s do

what? cleansing and heals more on guard? for real? take elixir gun, healing turret and healing bombs 500 healing power and calculate.

Don’t pretend, U just wanna wave of wrath and stabilitybot.

Or your guild lacked guards, that’s another question.

I say to that what I always said when stomping thieves eles, and guardians and necros right left and center. They will be amazed when they come rushing and see me cleaning up classes they say they are struggling with. They will be amazed when they are dying, and I’m there to save them. They will then, maybe then they will… regret not giving me more credit.

Yes, engineers are fantastic soloers. Doesn’t that make us strong? That other classes needs to zerg, while we do not? Take pride in your calling, bro, and remember, ignorance is a bliss until you realize what you could have had.

lack of stabillity and very vulnerable to retaliation.
With vulnerable i mean that its possible for an engineer to get hit by 8,5k retaliation by using one skill and this is the -33% WvW value.

I don’t really get it myself. Grenade tossing engineers are almost as devastating to my pushing in as necro wells/marks are.

Rangers, I can at least see, have many derailing flaws that make them weak large scale because most of their power comes from single target and self/pet buffs. But personally I find it disdainful that people ignore tower defense and just talk about open field blobbing all the time. Rangers and Engis pew pewing from higher ground is a bit underrated I say and have caused sieges to fail. Just keep blasting their rams with your nades/elite and if their rams go down, then they’re forced to pvd or waste supply, and most importantly time. You don’t even need that many people to accomplish this.

Engineers don’t really lack in support do they? Fumigate removes condis just as well as guardian shouts could and it also damages the enemy too. Your low cooldown heal is a water field that can blast itself and you have another low duration water field to go with it.

Grenades have 1500 range, do a lot of damage, and I do believe they can violate the 5 AOE limit. Yes it isn’t as flashy as the ele meteor storms, but grenades can be spammed and you do have a right to not spam them when you see them stacking up and retaling yourself to death. The most damage I’ve taken from retal is about half my life, and I’m a pretty mindless spammer. This is no different from me having to avoid the temptation of whirling wrathing into a tighly stacked group.

They do lack in stability and group stunbreaks though. They have a really good block with gear shield but it can be bypassed and elixir S is nice but you can’t really blow it for pushing. So yea, they do lack that when charging in, but backline doesn’t seem to be that bad of an idea. In this regards they do need guardians to carry them. But then again guardians carry everyone anyways. :p That’s why they are first in GWEN.