Guild Wars 2

I’m only level 22 now, and using bombs with great success, because it seems the best traits for FT is at the higher levels. (Please, in advance, do not mention grenades. Tried it – hated it. If they can give them an auto-attack then I’m on board.)

But I really want to use FT when I get to 40 and beyond, frankly because its just so fun.

Has anyone ever tried a full Rampager’s build where you focus on the highest possible crit chance, lots of Might, and lots of condition damage?

Forgive me for not knowing the names of all these traits, but I’m still new to Engineer.

I was thinking 10/30/0/30/0, or 10/30/0/20/10 (mainly because I’m already addicted to perma-swiftness for leveling purposes).

I would use the sigil that gives + crit chance to get to 25 stacks (another 250 precision), then switch to the Might on Crit Sigil and Accuracy sigil (+5% crit chance).

I THINK I would be around 80-85% crit chance at this point, AND doing a lot of condition damage even before Might (especially for foes less than 50% health). With Fury it would be 100% crit chance.

Again, in theory, if I take the Burning on Crit trait, then the first tick of FT blast (or whatever I’m using frankly) will start the enemy “burning”. I THINK this would make all subsequent ticks of the FT do another 10% damage. The burn would last a LONG time (basically permanent burning) and do a lot of damage because of all the condition damage.

Add to this the bleeding inflicted 1/3 of the time, and all the Might stacks (which also add even more condition damage), and in theory it could pump out a ton of AOE damage. Again, I’m just thinking about PVE exploration. I don’t do WvW or PVP.

Even without boosting crit damage, almost every hit would be doing 150% of its normal damage, + all the other bonuses.

Anyway, it sounds like something I would enjoy. I was just curious if anyone has tried it. Thanks for your input.

XYZ on crit sigils have an internal cooldown, meaning their effect can only occur every 2 to 5 seconds, depending on the sigil.

Even with a 99% crit chance Firearms 5 only gives you barely 4 stacks of Bleed. Explosives V will only burn a single foe every 10 seconds, which means if you’re fighting more than a single foe keeping them all burning permanently will be difficult; even against one foe you properly need condition duration runes or food to achieve that.
In other words you’ll not deal that much condition damage.

Viable for PvE? Well, there are Flamethrower Engineers running around in Celestial gear that are doing “fine”, so I don’t see how your build shouldn’t do “fine”.
Good? No, Grenade Kit or Bomb Kit will give you between 20-50% more damage (properly even more if you run condition damage gear with a Flamethrower) and more support/survivability (Vulnerability, Immobilize/Cripple/Freeze, etc.).

I personally like getting crit to 80% so fury buff can be used. This gives you a bit of wiggle room to your gear as well. With medkit/Elixir B you get largely enough swiftness for most areas, anything longer and you might as well wp.

I threw this together last week and have been having a blast.

It stacks might with Juggernaut and HGH. FT does better damage based on power/prec than conditions, so I go full zerker rather than rampager. Lower base crit chance (49%), but more power. And I chose the sigil and runes to stack more might, rather than increase crit%. But with Elixir B, I’ve got fury with 50% uptime, plus a chance on throw B. I can keep a consistent 15+ might stacks up, generally 20+ at all times.

It’s just plain fun.

You can squeeze out more crit% easily by swapping out for Sigil of Accuracy and 4x Lyssa or Eagle Runes along with 2x Pirate Runes for example.

Almost identical to what I run, Seras, except i went 0/30/0/30/10 for Precise Sights at 30, and Static Discharge in tools.

Superior Runes of Strength are also good, so is Ogre. Anything that gives +might duration along with Juggernaut rocks.

I know this doesn’t directly answer your question about condition damage (which I think has already been adequately answered). But if you really like FT….

You might want to check out this build: http://intothemists.com/guides/guide.php?id=257

It’s great fun and pretty effective with some solid team boon support.

DesertRose.2031:

Viable for PvE? Well, there are Flamethrower Engineers running around in Celestial gear that are doing “fine”, so I don’t see how your build shouldn’t do “fine”.
Good? No, Grenade Kit or Bomb Kit will give you between 20-50% more damage (properly even more if you run condition damage gear with a Flamethrower) and more support/survivability (Vulnerability, Immobilize/Cripple/Freeze, etc.).

thats simply way exaggerated, you never do 20%-50% more dmg with grenades.
Its a statement some people come up with because they don’t like the FT kit or whatever, i don’t know how you come to this numbers. So tell me, I would really like to see it!

A FT/EG 0/25/0/20/25 build comes close to Grenades. On top of that the only considerable support with grenades is vulnerability, its laughable calling ‘cripple’ support, sry. FT/EG has multiple condition cleans, weakness, knockdowns etc. imho far better support with nearly comparable dmg.

Not to mention the super boring playstyle of Grenades, but thats another story.

@OP: HGH with juggernaut is kind of might overdose imho, you can stack easily 25 might with juggernaut and firefield blasts. One point of DesertRose is valid: Condition dmg doesn’t bring much to the table with a FT/EG build.

the 0/25/0/20/25 build is great
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fcAQJAqelIq6dX3SrF17IxYGcuzgZU37KSR+bMA-jwBBYfBkEBgIAM5pIasFhFRjVXDT5iIqGA-e

if you like flamethrower, this build will give you good damage and team support.

then there’s the hgh FT build
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fcAQJAqelspSXHwSrF17Ix4DdGMj6eXRPecjnMA-jQCBYfBkyAgIAM5pIas1hht6KalXBRXDT5iIqGA-e

and the SD FT build
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fcAQFAUl0pyUH5SrF17IxoHdW0kGMj6eXxHyPA-jgxAYfAyCQyrIasthioxqrxUuER1A-e

blutstein.2468:

DesertRose.2031:

Viable for PvE? Well, there are Flamethrower Engineers running around in Celestial gear that are doing “fine”, so I don’t see how your build shouldn’t do “fine”.
Good? No, Grenade Kit or Bomb Kit will give you between 20-50% more damage (properly even more if you run condition damage gear with a Flamethrower) and more support/survivability (Vulnerability, Immobilize/Cripple/Freeze, etc.).

thats simply way exaggerated, you never do 20%-50% more dmg with grenades.
Its a statement some people come up with because they don’t like the FT kit or whatever, i don’t know how you come to this numbers. So tell me, I would really like to see it!

A FT/EG 0/25/0/20/25 build comes close to Grenades. On top of that the only considerable support with grenades is vulnerability, its laughable calling ‘cripple’ support, sry. FT/EG has multiple condition cleans, weakness, knockdowns etc. imho far better support with nearly comparable dmg.

Not to mention the super boring playstyle of Grenades, but thats another story.

@OP: HGH with juggernaut is kind of might overdose imho, you can stack easily 25 might with juggernaut and firefield blasts. One point of DesertRose is valid: Condition dmg doesn’t bring much to the table with a FT/EG build.

That’s not an exaggeration.

Nades/Bombs are really that much better than flamethrower.

More dmg, and kiting capabilities. Go flamethrower if you enjoy it, but it will be a lot less dmg, Anet needs to just buff it already, doens’t make sense for the safer options to do more dmg.

blutstein.2468:

thats simply way exaggerated, you never do 20%-50% more dmg with grenades.
Its a statement some people come up with because they don’t like the FT kit or whatever, i don’t know how you come to this numbers. So tell me, I would really like to see it!

Assuming you have the shorter recharge trait and the 15% damage trait:
490*2*1.15 = 1127
490*2*1.1*1.15 = 1244,76 (assuming the target is constantly burning)
(244 + 569)*1,15 = 934.95
2061.95 / 6 = 344
2174.65 / 6 = 362.4 (assuming the target is constantly burning)

Assuming the Grenadier trait and the faster recharge trait:
107*3*4 = 1284
179*3 = 537
1821 / 5 = 364.2
Now keep in mind that grenades inflict Vulnerability, and the only damage trait the grenade Engineer cannot take is either the 5% if bleeding or the 1% peer boon; so in the best case scenario for the Flamethrower the direct damage of GK is “only” a little more than 12% higher.
Assume the Engineer has 20% condition duration and factor in Grenade Barrage, Freeze Grenade and Bleed and you easily get over 20%.

Assuming the 10% damage trait for bombs:
407*1.1/0.91 = 492
That’s almost 36% more, and we’re still assuming the target is immune to Vulnerability.
Just for fun, lets assume the target is immune to Burning but not to Vulnerability, then Bomb Kit will deal roughly 44% more damage.

So yeah, if you consider dealing 70-80% damage is “coming close” it’s true.

On top of that the only considerable support with grenades is vulnerability, its laughable calling ‘cripple’ support, sry. FT/EG has multiple condition cleans, weakness, knockdowns etc. imho far better support with nearly comparable dmg.

Bomb Kit inflicts Cripple, not Grenade Kit. And yeah, a knockback (not knockdown) which pushes trash mobs out of the AoEs of your teammates and bosses are virtually immune to is such great support.
Also, you’re comparing a single utility skill with a whole build; if you take Bomb Kit, Elixir Gun and Healing Turret along the Grenade Kit the only advantage of the FT/EG Engineer is the shorter recharge of the EG skills. Meanwhile the grenade Engineer will support his team with 20+ stacks of Vulnerability, more than three times as much Blind and considerable more damage.

it’s pve. all these numbers are unnecessary unless it’s your goal to clear SE P1 in record time. play what you like. it’ll work i promise you.

ellesee.8297:

it’s pve. all these numbers are unnecessary unless it’s your goal to clear SE P1 in record time. play what you like. it’ll work i promise you.

Sure, in PvE you can pretty much run everything you want and somehow get by.
Just don’t be surprised if you get kicked out of your dungeon group if you say you run Flamethrower.

DesertRose.2031:

blutstein.2468:

thats simply way exaggerated, you never do 20%-50% more dmg with grenades.
Its a statement some people come up with because they don’t like the FT kit or whatever, i don’t know how you come to this numbers. So tell me, I would really like to see it!

Assuming you have the shorter recharge trait and the 15% damage trait:
490*2*1.15 = 1127
490*2*1.1*1.15 = 1244,76 (assuming the target is constantly burning)
(244 + 569)*1,15 = 934.95
2061.95 / 6 = 344
2174.65 / 6 = 362.4 (assuming the target is constantly burning)

Assuming the Grenadier trait and the faster recharge trait:
107*3*4 = 1284
179*3 = 537
1821 / 5 = 364.2
Now keep in mind that grenades inflict Vulnerability, and the only damage trait the grenade Engineer cannot take is either the 5% if bleeding or the 1% peer boon; so in the best case scenario for the Flamethrower the direct damage of GK is “only” a little more than 12% higher.
Assume the Engineer has 20% condition duration and factor in Grenade Barrage, Freeze Grenade and Bleed and you easily get over 20%.

Assuming the 10% damage trait for bombs:
407*1.1/0.91 = 492
That’s almost 36% more, and we’re still assuming the target is immune to Vulnerability.
Just for fun, lets assume the target is immune to Burning but not to Vulnerability, then Bomb Kit will deal roughly 44% more damage.

---

So yeah, if you consider dealing 70-80% damage is “coming close” it’s true.

On top of that the only considerable support with grenades is vulnerability, its laughable calling ‘cripple’ support, sry. FT/EG has multiple condition cleans, weakness, knockdowns etc. imho far better support with nearly comparable dmg.

Bomb Kit inflicts Cripple, not Grenade Kit. And yeah, a knockback (not knockdown) which pushes trash mobs out of the AoEs of your teammates and bosses are virtually immune to is such great support.
Also, you’re comparing a single utility skill with a whole build; if you take Bomb Kit, Elixir Gun and Healing Turret along the Grenade Kit the only advantage of the FT/EG Engineer is the shorter recharge of the EG skills. Meanwhile the grenade Engineer will support his team with 20+ stacks of Vulnerability, more than three times as much Blind and considerable more damage.

hell, i know it you throw in all the numbers for nothing.

So assuming:

• best case for grenades and bombs and worst case for FT/EG
• every single grenade or bomb hits you foe
• you are not getting onehittet in berserk gear with bombs melee on a boss, because they never move and you of course dropping your smokebomb in the right time
• you are NOT using knockbacks (not knockdown, thx bro, thank good you knew what i mean) on trashmobs because you are pro.
• you find the sarcasm

you are right and finish of the dungeon about 30 sec earlier!

elitists are generally terrible anyway. the worst kinds of people are the ones that lie dead on the floor and tell me or others how to play.

blutstein.2468:

So assuming:

• best case for grenades and bombs and worst case for FT/EG

So, hitting with every single strike of Flamethrower #1 and hitting every foe both with the projectile and the explosion of Flamethrower #2 is worst case for FT/EG?
Interesting, what’s the best case then?

@DesertRose
No one is asking if you like the FT. This is a FT thread. Please stop being so rude as to attempt to highjack every single FT thread

Grenades are grossly over rated. Bombs out damage grenades.

Another FT thread turned into obnoxious theorycraft talk about “what is best” in spite of what the OP is looking for. I think we all know on paper how good the Bomb Kit is. We all use it in sPvP/WvW. But take it into one rotation of world events and you’ll understand why I don’t use it in PvE.

Fire Elemental. Golem. Tequatl. Ulgoth. Karka Queen. Dwayna. Etc. Etc.

There are so many world events that punish players for fighting in melee range. I would payout gold to watch a video of someone surviving the Temple of Grenth event from start to finish staying in melee range with the Bomb Kit. And sure, it’s pretty good in dungeons, but I’d rather run a build that I can use in 100% of PvE content. Meaning all the time.

fourhim.3584:

Please, in advance, do not mention grenades. Tried it – hated it. If they can give them an auto-attack then I’m on board.

But I really want to use FT when I get to 40 and beyond, frankly because its just so fun.

Sigh.

fourhim.3584:

Has anyone ever tried a full Rampager’s build where you focus on the highest possible crit chance, lots of Might, and lots of condition damage?

I have, and I don’t recommend it. While the FT does maintain a lot of burning damage, the difference in damage stacking Condition Damage versus not with your burns only results in a few hundred extra damage per tick. By comparison, stacking Power and Critical Damage contributes to a significant difference in damage. My Flame Blast in Berserker/Scholar gear regularly hits for over 13K damage between both hits.

In PvE, Berserker is just the way to go.

DesertRose.2031:

ellesee.8297:

it’s pve. all these numbers are unnecessary unless it’s your goal to clear SE P1 in record time. play what you like. it’ll work i promise you.

Sure, in PvE you can pretty much run everything you want and somehow get by.
Just don’t be surprised if you get kicked out of your dungeon group if you say you run Flamethrower.

Please stop spreading these lies. I’ve been running the FT since I hit level 80 over 12 months ago. I’ve must’ve run each dungeon dozens of times by now, both inside and outside of my guild.

No one has ever kicked me from a group because of what kit I wield. I’ve been asked to play on my Warrior over my Engineer at times, but that is the extent of it. And of the times I said no, I wasn’t kicked for it.

I love the FT, definitely my favourite kit even if other kits do more damage overall, none of them are as enjoyable to me as the FT. Permanent swiftness and vigor, permanent 10 stacks of might, AoE burning, AoE might and so much more.
But as has been said above, berserker is the way to go with the FT if you want more damage, there’s not enough conditions applied with it to make it viable imo.

And I agree with the above poster, I’ve run FT kit in dungeons dozens of times, no one has ever, EVER, complained about it.

I do think they need to improve the FT to make it competitive with other kits in some way, perhaps making it cause more damage the fewer targets that are hit with the basic attack. That way it would be usefull both for AoE and single target.

The OP asked for the viability of this build which I answered. Then someone asked me to further explain my statement, which I did.
Don’t ask questions you don’t like the answer of, guys.

Not seeing where anyone asked you to explain anything off topic. If they actually did, you should have deflected and explained this thread is about the FT itself. You have done this too many times on too many threads recently to use such a lame excuse.

If I ask you to explain how to make cheese, The fact that I asked does not by any means justify you making such an off topic post.

As well the "pointing your figure and crying ‘he started it’ " is just plain foolish.

The FT is a very solid kit. It may not maximize damage, but it offers good damage and solidifies that with some utility. How it compares to everything else is ultimately irrelevant to this thread.

coglin.1867:

The FT is a very solid kit. It may not maximize damage, but it offers good damage and solidifies that with some utility. How it compares to everything else is ultimately irrelevant to this thread.

Except it’s not. It’s completely inferior. Up to you if you want to use it, but that doesn’t change that fact.

Knote.2904:

coglin.1867:

The FT is a very solid kit. It may not maximize damage, but it offers good damage and solidifies that with some utility. How it compares to everything else is ultimately irrelevant to this thread.

Except it’s not. It’s completely inferior. Up to you if you want to use it, but that doesn’t change that fact.

Actually it is exactly what I stated it is. I stated it is a solid kit. Perhaps you should read my post before you argue against something I didn’t say. It comes as as either trolling (which is what your doing because you assist in derailing the thread to try to make it a kit comparison thread and not a FT thread) or something worse.

DesertRose.2031:

The OP asked for the viability of this build which I answered. Then someone asked me to further explain my statement, which I did. Don’t ask questions you don’t like the answer of, guys.

You cannot be serious.

fourhim.3584:

Please, in advance, do not mention grenades. Tried it – hated it. If they can give them an auto-attack then I’m on board.

But I really want to use FT when I get to 40 and beyond, frankly because its just so fun.

He specifically says he’s not concerned about the Grenade Kit. You think what you wrote is even remotely the kind of feedback he’s looking for?

You guys define what kind of environment you want to have around here. I’m just one person. And I’ve tried to be as helpful as possible getting people to construct their FT builds properly. If I can’t get that through to players who want to wield the FT because you all are too busy arguing about how much damage each kit does, I’m just going to stop posting here.

I’m so tired of seeing this crap. It happens in every FT thread. Every single one.

coglin.1867:

Not seeing where anyone asked you to explain anything off topic.

Here:

(…) i don’t know how you come to this numbers. So tell me, I would really like to see it!

The viability of a build is also defined by how it performs compared to the alternatives one profession has.

Phineas Poe.3018:

You guys define what kind of environment you want to have around here. I’m just one person. And I’ve tried to be as helpful as possible getting people to construct their FT builds properly. If I can’t get that through to players who want to wield the FT because you all are too busy arguing about how much damage each kit does, I’m just going to stop posting here.

The “elitists” wouldn’t be bothered if the Flamethrower advocates wouldn’t spread misleading/false statements.
If one hears “comparable damage” most people will think about something between 90-95%, not 70-80%, so expect someone will point that out.
If one says “FT/EG offers more support” expect that someone will point out that’s only because you’ve just compared a complete build with one with an empty healing skill, two empty utility skills and an empty elite skill.

Or how about not getting so worked up if someone posts objective facts.

No I meant before you derailed the thread the first time specifically after the OP stated “Please, in advance, do not mention grenades”……………….

DesertRose.2031:

Or how about not getting so worked up if someone posts objective facts.

I’m not denying objective facts. I just don’t see where the OP asked for them.

Is it too much to ask that you just refrain from that impulse?

Also, for the record, I never called you an “elitist,” so I’m not sure where you’re coming from with that. I think people construct their Engineers differently for different reasons. There’s nothing wrong with prioritizing damage.

FT is great if you run around with blinders on, and pretend no one else exist.
‘oh, that phantasm is out dpsing me? nope can’t see him. im awesome!!!!"

Desertrose, Im not entirely sure I follow your math there. Are you taking into consideration flame jet is a 2.57 cast? and the tooltip basically flat out lies to you?

What originally drew me to the FT was back before they destroyed kit refinement. At one point, swapping to EG dropped a super elixir at your feet giving a AoE heal tic and removing one condition and when you swapped into FT it did flame blast, which was a small damage AoE just like the one from the sigil of fire and it also cleansed one condition.

With the 2 conditions removed this way in an AoE, the slight damage, and the AoE heal tic from it, it really made the utilitarian aspect of the FT/EG stand out.

Personally I feel this combo is still under estimated, but I also feel a good portion of its appeal was lost for me with the destruction of kit refinement.

Fireshield is actually a neat kit refinement skill.
it would play in more if FT were actually a “tank” kit. Although the might stacking might be redundant.

Maybe its traits should be in the inventions line. in which no one in the history of this game has put any points int.

blutstein.2468:

DesertRose.2031:

No, Grenade Kit or Bomb Kit will give you between 20-50% more damage

thats simply way exaggerated, you never do 20%-50% more dmg with grenades.
Its a statement some people come up with because they don’t like the FT kit or whatever, i don’t know how you come to this numbers. So tell me, I would really like to see it!

A FT/EG 0/25/0/20/25 build comes close to Grenades. On top of that the only considerable support with grenades is vulnerability, its laughable calling ‘cripple’ support, sry. FT/EG has multiple condition cleans, weakness, knockdowns etc. imho far better support with nearly comparable dmg.

Unfortunately those numbers aren’t too far off from a solo perspective. FT drew me to start playing the class n I’d hope they give it a boost at some point.

Strictly DPS wise these numbers are from my personal testing. Done in the mists for a ‘sterile’ environment. All done with Zerker setup to simply compare DPS levels.
30/10/0/0/30 Grenades w/SD runs around ~3100 DPS
0/30/0/30/10 FT/HGH ~2100 DPS
0/30/0/20/20 FT w/EG4 and SD ~2670 DPS
*10/30/0/20/10 FT w/EG4 and SD ~3050DPS

Keep in mind those numbers are solo with PvP gear so they will change in PvE but should be comparatively similar. Vulnerability plays a part here. Grenades averages ~16 stacks where FT does not. If your group already supplies 16 stacks you’ll match Grenades damage on a personal level. If you take vulnerability away from Grenades they do similar damage to FT/EG/SD.

To get the numbers on 0/30/0/20/20 you need to hit Rifle 3 n 5, EG 4 and your Rifle Turret toolbelt as soon as they’re off cooldown. I have a lot of fun with FT, its great for open world events and just fine for a lot of dungeons.

Lastly, don’t take my word for it. Do your own testing and make your own conclusions. Fun trumps DPS IMHO.

GL
Blood~

*Seems with some rotation and trait refinement you can pull quite close to Grenades, with the same ‘rotation’ of hitting cooldowns. Bombs and Rifle/SD are both a bit higher but I’m quite pleased with FT numbers in this setup.

Casia.4281:

Desertrose, Im not entirely sure I follow your math there. Are you taking into consideration flame jet is a 2.57 cast? and the tooltip basically flat out lies to you?

When do the tool tips don’t lie to you?
I’ve assumed you can use two Flame Jets and one Flame Blast every 6 seconds.

Bloodgruve.6038:

blutstein.2468:

DesertRose.2031:

No, Grenade Kit or Bomb Kit will give you between 20-50% more damage

thats simply way exaggerated, you never do 20%-50% more dmg with grenades.
Its a statement some people come up with because they don’t like the FT kit or whatever, i don’t know how you come to this numbers. So tell me, I would really like to see it!

A FT/EG 0/25/0/20/25 build comes close to Grenades. On top of that the only considerable support with grenades is vulnerability, its laughable calling ‘cripple’ support, sry. FT/EG has multiple condition cleans, weakness, knockdowns etc. imho far better support with nearly comparable dmg.

Unfortunately those numbers aren’t too far off from a solo perspective. FT drew me to start playing the class n I’d hope they give it a boost at some point.

Strictly DPS wise these numbers are from my personal testing. Done in the mists for a ‘sterile’ environment. All done with Zerker setup to simply compare DPS levels.
30/10/0/0/30 Grenades w/SD runs around ~3100 DPS
0/30/0/30/10 FT/HGH ~2100 DPS
0/30/0/20/20 FT w/EG4 and SD ~2670 DPS
*10/30/0/20/10 FT w/EG4 and SD ~3050DPS

Keep in mind those numbers are solo with PvP gear so they will change in PvE but should be comparatively similar. Vulnerability plays a part here. Grenades averages ~16 stacks where FT does not. If your group already supplies 16 stacks you’ll match Grenades damage on a personal level. If you take vulnerability away from Grenades they do similar damage to FT/EG/SD.

To get the numbers on 0/30/0/20/20 you need to hit Rifle 3 n 5, EG 4 and your Rifle Turret toolbelt as soon as they’re off cooldown. I have a lot of fun with FT, its great for open world events and just fine for a lot of dungeons.

Lastly, don’t take my word for it. Do your own testing and make your own conclusions. Fun trumps DPS IMHO.

GL
Blood~

*Seems with some rotation and trait refinement you can pull quite close to Grenades, with the same ‘rotation’ of hitting cooldowns. Bombs and Rifle/SD are both a bit higher but I’m quite pleased with FT numbers in this setup.

only shows how bad FT is, my grenades hit for 1.3k-1.5k each average 1.9k tops Each grenade easily over the 3k specified and theres the fact FT has a 2s attack chain so grenades do in fact add for 50-100% more damage solely on attack rate.

in the end use you use wichever weapon you like if you like FT use FT

Rezzet.3614:

only shows how bad FT is, my grenades hit for 1.3k-1.5k each average 1.9k tops Each grenade easily over the 3k specified and theres the fact FT has a 2s attack chain so grenades do in fact add for 50-100% more damage solely on attack rate.

Everything being equal, FT in this scenario is 50DPS lower then Grenades, these are comparative tests not definitive PVE DPS values. Numbers from ‘this attack’ or ‘that chain’ are deceiving, you can’t assume DPS by looking at one number. Again, don’t take my word for it, go see test yourself. I’m happy to PM my test method.

Rezzet.3614:

in the end use you use wichever weapon you like if you like FT use FT

thread over. everybody stop posting.

Bloodgruve.6038:

Strictly DPS wise these numbers are from my personal testing. Done in the mists for a ‘sterile’ environment. All done with Zerker setup to simply compare DPS levels.
30/10/0/0/30 Grenades w/SD runs around ~3100 DPS
0/30/0/30/10 FT/HGH ~2100 DPS
0/30/0/20/20 FT w/EG4 and SD ~2670 DPS
*10/30/0/20/10 FT w/EG4 and SD ~3050DPS

For better comparison you should also add a GK build with a comparable survivability to the two middle ones, e.g. 30/0/0/10/30. Also, include EG #4 into your rotation for grenades.

Bloodgruve.6038:

30/10/0/0/30 Grenades w/SD runs around ~3100 DPS
0/30/0/30/10 FT/HGH ~2100 DPS
0/30/0/20/20 FT w/EG4 and SD ~2670 DPS
*10/30/0/20/10 FT w/EG4 and SD ~3050DPS

I’d like to see how 0/25/0/20/25 compares.

Since the nerf to Incendiary Powder and the buff to Rocket Boots, it just makes more sense putting 25 points into Tools, taking Enduring Damage for 10% extra damage, and using Rocket Kick as your burn skill along with Incendiary Ammo. Never mind the fact that Incendiary Powder is single-target while Rocket Kick is a cleave skill.

30/0/0/10/30 GK/EG/SD is right under that 3100 DPS level.
Had a 20/30/0/20/0 FT/EG at 3100 also.

Bombs clocked in at 3300 and Rifle/SD at 3200 for me.

Again, these are only comparative numbers, not saying anything about PvE or scaling or survivability/utility or group play other than I believe, when taken to PvE, these builds should stay somewhat even dps wise. Don’t take my word for it either, test and draw your own conclusions.

Blood~

DesertRose.2031:

Bloodgruve.6038:

Strictly DPS wise these numbers are from my personal testing. Done in the mists for a ‘sterile’ environment. All done with Zerker setup to simply compare DPS levels.
30/10/0/0/30 Grenades w/SD runs around ~3100 DPS
0/30/0/30/10 FT/HGH ~2100 DPS
0/30/0/20/20 FT w/EG4 and SD ~2670 DPS
*10/30/0/20/10 FT w/EG4 and SD ~3050DPS

For better comparison you should also add a GK build with a comparable survivability to the two middle ones, e.g. 30/0/0/10/30. Also, include EG #4 into your rotation for grenades.

You have to remember that GK Engineers don’t take Fireforged Trigger or Deadly Mixture, so you’re not going to get out of Acid Bomb what an FT Engineer does. So even if you did include Elixir Gun skills, I don’t think they would contribute much.

Never mind the fact that GK Engineers don’t have a fire field themselves to actually use it in.

I’ve looked at maximizing DPS with a lot of different builds. The best numbers I’ve seen require supplementing your ‘main’ weapon or kit with higher damaging abilities from other kits, taking advantage of our virtually zero swap cooldown. I’ve done a lot of testing in SD builds with different setups. Rifle Turret/Surprise shot is a staple but past that EG even un-traited is pushing the same DPS if not slightly higher then TK+toolbelt or PBRtoolbelt. My conclusion is it’s personal preference between EG and TK to bolster damage in a build with SD. EG helps for sure in non-SD builds. Its just that much better when you trait it

Actually, now that I’m thinking of it I’m not sure I’ve done a comparison between TK/Throw Wrench SD and EG4, I’ll have to do that today.

To the OP
20/30/0/20/0gave me the highest sustained numbers with FT, comparatively on par with Grenades. Its not just sitting in FT though, its switching to Rifle for 3n5, to EG for 4 on cooldown and Rifle Turret overload for Vulnerability. Incendiary Ammo will guarantee Burning off the bat and its not hard at all to stack Burning with all this. Problem is if you have another Burner in group your ticks will get pushed back.

I think burning is a stupid way to deal damage in PvE, if you’re not top condition damage your ticks usually fall off the end of the mobs hitbar :/ Design wise.

This was tested with Zerker gear but I’ll give Rampagers a shot n see what it does.

Lastly, tested in the Mists for comparison of DPS levels, that is all. This isn’t a statement of absolute viability in PvE…

Phineas Poe.3018:

You have to remember that GK Engineers don’t take Fireforged Trigger or Deadly Mixture, so you’re not going to get out of Acid Bomb what an FT Engineer does. So even if you did include Elixir Gun skills, I don’t think they would contribute much.

Never mind the fact that GK Engineers don’t have a fire field themselves to actually use it in.

Assuming the mobs/boss doesn’t move (quite common in dungeons) Elixir Gun #4 hits as hard as four untraited bomb auto attacks and usually gives either 3 stacks of Might or AoE healing.

(Note: I’m playing FT for fun and not for pure DPS)
After messing around for a while (including HGH and some tankier build) I kinda feel satisfied with this one:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fcAQJAqel0pyanuy2F17IxYGdO0gZU37KSR+bMA-e
(Playing solo/small group pve, dungeon not tested and probably not viable)
You’ll get:
Perma swiftness (drop stimulant, kit change, elixir B) – about constantly 1 minute if non-stop stacked
Perma fury (elixir B, goggles, drop stimulant) – about constantly 50 seconds if non-stop stacked
5 seconds vigor every 5 seconds you get swiftness (for some bonus dmg)
Stundbreak/Immunity to blinding (Goggles)

Using runes to increase might duration (Strength, Fire, etc.) you’ll keep having around 9 stacks of might. That increased my Flame Blast crit from 3k to 5k compared to an HGH build, where you get some more might but lack fury.

DesertRose.2031:

Phineas Poe.3018:

You have to remember that GK Engineers don’t take Fireforged Trigger or Deadly Mixture, so you’re not going to get out of Acid Bomb what an FT Engineer does. So even if you did include Elixir Gun skills, I don’t think they would contribute much.

Never mind the fact that GK Engineers don’t have a fire field themselves to actually use it in.

Assuming the mobs/boss doesn’t move (quite common in dungeons) Elixir Gun #4 hits as hard as four untraited bomb auto attacks and usually gives either 3 stacks of Might or AoE healing.

That’s not really the point.

Of course it still does damage and can be used as a blast finisher in a fire field, but Grenade Kit Engineers don’t have fire fields by default and do not take Deadly Mixture or Fireforged Trigger.

The damage difference between utilizing a still untraited versus having its cooldown reduced by 20% and its damage increased by 15% is pretty staggering.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Of course it still does damage and can be used as a blast finisher in a fire field, but Grenade Kit Engineers don’t have fire fields by default and do not take Deadly Mixture or Fireforged Trigger.

The damage difference between utilizing a still untraited versus having its cooldown reduced by 20% and its damage increased by 15% is pretty staggering.

Not bringing Bomb Kit when you main Grenade Kit makes about as much sense as not bringing Elixir Gun when you main Flamethrower; should we now likewise assume that a Flamethrower Engineer won’t have Elixir Gun?

The difference between an attack that does much more damage but takes only slightly longer to execute and increases the damage by your whole group by up to 4-6% is also pretty staggering.

DesertRose.2031:

Not bringing Bomb Kit when you main Grenade Kit makes about as much sense as not bringing Elixir Gun when you main Flamethrower; should we now likewise assume that a Flamethrower Engineer won’t have Elixir Gun?

So it makes perfect sense then, glad that you agree. Because sooooo many FT builds bring 2 elixirs with them and use HgH to maximize might, have stability, a stun breaker, invulnerability, and stealth, or even condition removal.

We all know we see tons of grenade builds using 2 elixirs as well.

After a bit more testing EG4 even untraited is great. I was able to achieve competitive DPS with FT and improve my DPS in Rifle/SD by 11% with it vs Toolkit/Throw Wrench.

DesertRose.2031:

Not bringing Bomb Kit when you main Grenade Kit makes about as much sense as not bringing Elixir Gun when you main Flamethrower; should we now likewise assume that a Flamethrower Engineer won’t have Elixir Gun?

Not sure why you should assume anything. The Flamethrower is more than viable on its own. I personally chose to construct my build around using both of them, but I’ve talked with a lot of FT Engineers over the past year who have absolutely zero interest wielding the Elixir Gun with it. Nothing nonsensical or weird about it. I think they pair together very well, but it’s not a requirement to take the Elixir Gun when using the Flamethrower.

I’ve used the Grenade Kit plenty in PvE and PvP, and I haven’t always taken the Bomb Kit in conjunction with it. I don’t see why I should automatically assume everyone taking the Grenade Kit is also taking the Bomb Kit. Especially if they’re running it with the Elixir Gun already.

DesertRose.2031:

The difference between an attack that does much more damage but takes only slightly longer to execute and increases the damage by your whole group by up to 4-6% is also pretty staggering.

Untraited, Acid Bomb is of course worth using. I just posted the Bomb Kit build I’ve been running with in PvE the past couple weeks on GW2 Guru. I use the EG with it, but I don’t run with Deadly Mixture. It’s worth using, but it’s still not as much as it would be without those traits. That’s all I’m saying.