Guild Wars 2

I’ll insert TL:DR up front just in case: it boils down to – I like complicated classes with multiple options. I love combo fields. I can’t decide between Elementalist and Engineer but I’m leaning towards Engi and I need advice on how good he is in support role in both PvE and PvP (sPvP, tPvP & WvWvW).

The longer version:
Hello, as the topic states, I’m quite fond of support gameplay. I only ever played tanks and healers in other MMOs and from the get-go I have noticed that GW2 is quite different in the support department. When I learned that most support is done via boons, combo fields for allies, a bit of healing and quite a large dose of control, I have tried Necro and Guardian with the intent of being a PvE bruiser/support and PvP support. I really grew to love combo fields, as they are a “visible” support and I can see that I’m helping, unlike some shouts / boongiving utilities. Personal preference, I know the difference from numbers standpoint and I also know that combo fields are less desireable than boons / control. They are a neat addition though.

I also know that support currently is well … not supported by game mechanics. Any DE or WvWvW is a tagfest. That is also an issue I take into account, but it doesn’t discourage me (I hope that ANet fixes this until I get demotivated).

I can’t say if I liked necro because bugs really make the class hard to play. I liked the Guardian, but his complete and utter lack of any ranged options made him a pain to play even in early levels – and nothing improved as the levels went on. So I made an Elementalist and an Engineer and leveled them to mid 30’s. I really like their playstyle that is much more complicated (yet not rewarded, but that’s another topic) and I find it cool because it isn’t boring. Even if it is not properly rewarded, I intend to stick with these classes (they will be balanced and fixed someday). I lean towards Engi though (for reasons stated below). I chose to post here because of this (and the fear that in Elementalist forum this post would be derailed into “ele is weak” vs. “L2P” flamewar).

Both classes have what I like: fun and challenging playstyle, combo fields and support abilities. Both also have what I need: range and AoE tag abilities that also help the team (like grenade kit #5). I can’t decide between the two though and I don’t really have time to level them both up without my friends outleveling me significantly. I like the Engineer better from an aesthetic point of view (but only a little more than Ele), but it seems like in PvP I’ll be forced to run either Elixir S or R for the stunbreak, Elixir C for condition removal and that leaves me with a single utility slot of my choice. Without the weapon swap, I will only have 5 weapons skills + toolbelt + my utility of choice (which may or may not be a kit – Elixir Gun seems like an obvious choice, but each Kit has something cool that is hard to pass up).

Considering that the healing from the Healing Turret overrides other regens for it’s duration and doesn’t scale at all, and the fact that it’s toolbelt is only a regen buff, not a heal, I’ll probably have to stick to the Medkit, which heals only me from it’s toolbar (and has the nice addition of condition removal and a buff on #5). That leaves very little room to provide any meaningful support, or am I wrong?

I like Engineers survivability when compared to the lowest-tier HP / lowest-tier Armor Ele (though armor doesn’t matter as much, 5k of base HP does, that I figured out).
I also don’t like how Elementalists are pigeonholed into vitality/toughness build (even if I would run one anyway) and how their traits are made. For a class that has to switch between it’s atunements very frequently, Elementalists have too many traits focused only on a single atunement. I like Engineer’s traits though – they are much more streamlined and there is more synergy between them (even if not all of them work properly).

If I could get a civil response in the matter of how engineer is doing in the support deparment and if it’s still as interesting as it is to solo with him, I’ll be grateful. It’d be even more awesome if someone with experience in both high-level Elementalist support and Engineer support could lay down the pros and cons of both choices.

Engineer is fine in the support department honestly. It depends on how you want to go with it.

You can go for a more mobile, freer support for example, and go for 4 thrown elixirs which give might, their normal effect and condition removal.

Or you can go deep into the rabbit hole and go massive support with something like this:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/en/?fcEQJAqel0pqb3zShF1LJxIFfO0heUYDrWQFy7nCyF;ToAg2Cro6y0loLbXuukdNmYyA

I see this as the most support I can go really.

Throwing med kit bandages.
Healing Bombs
Two Super Elixirs from elixir gun and kit refinement.
Condition removal from med kit, elixir gun and throw elixir R
Reviving allies with throw elixir R itself.

Gives you on top of that: regeneration from healing mist, CC from BoB and your shield and a stun break from R.

Real trouble is picking sigils, since you can’t use on crit as your crit is low, and you can’t use on swap since you are an engineer.

Rune is open to choice as well.

Edit: Used wrong amulet sorry.

I think engineer is great support, you can use elixir gun and kit refinement to keep up a heal tick 100% of the time and remove conditions. We have what is basically a resurrection elixir that is AoE and also is a stun breaker(got to love the duel utility of the engineer class mechanic). As well you can use toss Hand pick another elixir for a buff of your preference as well.

That is just with the elixir build, there are a great many other really nice support builds.

The issue I found was that in PvP most engineers I’ve watched don’t use any kits at all (except for the medkit from time to time), just use elixirs + pistol & shield. The only utility kits I’ve seen in those many videos seem to be bomb kit for bunker engis and an occasional tool kit. Mostly they just run Elixir S, C and B / U. And if I would be forced into this kind of playstyle I would definitely take something else.

I find Lyuben’s build quite fun and promising, but I wonder if it would prove viable. I can’t fight the notion that the kits are quite useless, with the sole exception of med kit in PvE/PvP and grenades outside of PvP. This may however get better as I level up.
I would just test both professions in PvP and find out myself, but both have a steep learning curve and I don’t really have time to master both of them enough to really find out which one performs better overall.

It could seem like the best support you can do, is to do more dps…

Seriously, I’ve run with the Elixir Gun quite a while and this is what happens;

-People will run out of my combo fields as they think they are damaging.
-People don’t cluster and the Elixirs have very small area range, meaning I end up using them on myself mostly.
-Elixir Gun has single target, long range, but very little dps. I get bronze on events because I do so low dps.
-The other team thinks I’m pri 1 target, as I heal…

This is why, while waiting for the support role to get some apprechiation, I’m specced like Thanerion says; with Pistols/ Shield, elixirs and EG, but almost never use the EG. I can pull it out whenever I need it and I mostly use the Elixirs on myself giving me perma swift, endless Condi-remover and such.

support works if you’re in a good guild. solo, not so much

fingis.2867:

support works if you’re in a good guild. solo, not so much

I don’t even consider running a support solo ;-) Even in a good guild, I need to tag players. It’s just hard to figure out which support actually works. Healing seems to be lack-luster, as it scales poorly (even more so on the turret) – boons, combo fields and conditions seem to be the way to go. But the fact that Elixirs need people to clump up is very undesireable in PvP. That is what bothers me. If I’m forced into slotting at least 2 elixirs in my utility skills, that doesn’t leave a lot of room to do anything to even get on par with classes that simply have a weapon-switch.
That’s the reason I’d like to hear some opinion from someone much more experienced than I am.

haha yeah.
Engi support in “pugs” can be maddening. Heck, I was running with guild members, and I would throw down super elixirs, or elixir R and the FIRST thing my guild members would do EVERY time. Run out of it. And these are people that should know better.

Support engi is really strong at heals/debuffs/cleansing. There are a few niche things like stealth as well. But getting strong CC, etc in a support build is a bit hard. Stability, fear break, etc. guardian wall, kb are kindof much more impactful then engi healing.

I currently run pistol/shield with med kit, bomb kit, elixir gun, and grenades. Trait 30 into inventions for bombs that heal, 30 into explosives for bomb radius and extra grenades, and 10 into inventions for the super elixir on switch to elixir gun. Use engineer sigils in your armor and the shaman amulet and you’ll have over 700 condition damage, almost 1000 healing, over 3500 (!) defense, and a moderate amount of power. The only two downsides are that you’ll have base health and no crit. Nevertheless, it is a very tanky build and, coupled with the fact that bomb and grenade kits being so condition based, can put out decent damage. Support is great because of the elixir gun and 1000 healing.

The only downside is that I find I have trouble with ranged opponents (rangers and mesmers, mostly). Overall, though, one of the best pug point capturing and defensive builds I’ve found. Plus, you get to rip through thieves with your bombs…

(no tpvp experience here)
My 2c: The “support” archetype for engineer is just not that useful. It’s SO much more useful to simply do moar DPS. Support in my experience isn’t really support as it has been in previous MMORPGs.

Too many of the engineers support items are static (can’t move) and the ones that can move are extremely small radius. It’s been pointed out, this is a real problem in group PvP since most puggers don’t even know to get in your AE support, and for the rest…. fights move too much for even teammates that KNOW to get in your AE support. Even tossing an elixir, with it’s extremely small AE, isn’t terribly effective.

Not nearly as effective as simply doing moar DPS. Dead enemies don’t damage your team, and therefore make “support” unnecessary.

This very stationary aspect of the engineers supporting abilities is what, I think, lends itself to a very effective Bunker speccing. Since the fight is forced to be less mobile (it’s at the point, period), the supporting abilities can be more easily used. While it won’t kill anybody fast, even if you are solo it is supporting YOU which means you can last long enough for help to arrive. And if you have 1 or 2 others willing to work with you, a support spec can be very useful to make the sum greater than the parts. With even 1 other person working with you, it’s possible to be VERY hard to defeat at a point except at the hands of vastly superior numbers.

These are early days, and GW2 is bound to go through several iterations and adjustments. So this might change some day. But for now, support is a less effective spec than going all-out DPS in most varieties of pvp below tournaments.

I checked this out, done a bit of research on my own and it seems support is generally not useful at all in neither PvP nor PvE. The best thing to do is to reach an equilibrium of support/defense/offense that allows to both dps, survive and add a bit to the group to overpower the other group in teamfights. That means: neither focus on support nor pure survivability or pure defense is viable in any sense of the word in any game type or mode.

For me, a deditacted support player in all types of games, it means that I have to be like everyone else: support—bruiser—dps all at once (not to say healer-tank-dps). What in turn this means is that GW2 has replaced a trinity among characters with trinity inside the character – one has to be his own tank, support and dps and paddle his own canoe.
I can’t fight the notion that this model of gameplay actually kills teamplay instead of encouraging it. If you’re not dependent on anyone with anything, who benefits? Noone. People as just as much dependent on team performance as they were in the days of holy trinity, but they can’t impact their ally performance too much without imparing the team with their own too-focused build.
I’ve talked to some people on my server that seem to know what they’re doing (lvl 80 ele, lvl 80 engi and lvl 80 guardian with some tPvP, sPvP and WvWvW experience under their belts (PvE obviously too)) and they all seem to agree that support is lackluster and completely not rewarding both in terms of fun and from mechanic standpoint.
Reasonable people incorporate some support in just about any build they make because some abilities are fine on their own and helping the group is just an added bonus. But it’s not the focus and it can’t be the focus. Even organised tPvP teams don’t sport a fully support-focused role because it is just not efficient to do so.

Sadly, it seems this is just not a game for me.