Guild Wars 2

Paulytnz.7619:

Fix for the flamethrower missing – Stop moving before attacking stationary targets. There done. It only misses if you are MOVING and trying to target a stationary target. Dunno why this happens but it does.

There are plenty of times that I can’t hit a stationary target at all regardless of where I stand or how still I am. As my secondary kit is elixir gun, I’m regularly reduced to autoattacking to damage stationary targets.

Phineas Poe.3018:

The reason the Flamethrower misses a lot is because it has a conical attack. It’s no different than the Guardian’s Cleansing Flame or the Elementalist’s Drake’s Breath.

If you’re running directly forward at or backing away from your target you will always hit it. If you stand still and let the auto aim take over you will always hit it. Where you run into trouble is strafing/turning. It’s not the skill effect so much as your latency; you have to lead your targets a little bit at times.

Seeing a bunch of missed attacks is not a bug. It’s inexperience with how it performs. Get used to its range and width and you’ll rarely miss your attacks.

I will admit it is a little buggy with certain structure objects, but these are rare situations.

First of all… if you read carefully I was pointing the MISS-MISS when targeting, specially those static objects, and this my friend, is like almost 90% miss all the time specially if you are targeting it.

For the burning per tick, I wanted to show the tag to show how non-realistic is this skill, which “should” provide burn per tick and this is my personal point of view, some ppl likes this idea and some ppl doesn’t. Another way around would be “1 burn for any of the 10 hits” at least this would sound more realistic and at the same time ppl won’t be saying “it’s OP”.

You were talking about the conical attack, which means a cone of area, which also means it should hit things inside that aoe, running directly foward and targeting the static object it’s a 90% to MISS, same goes if you try backing away from your target, it Misses and the point of all this post is that they have to fix this bug, it has to land all hits when u target an static object because that’s what it is meant to do.

Talking about power based kit vs condition, we are talking about a Flamethrower that spreads fire, and fire has a burning condition dmg, so what are you talking about? this is a mix between 2 different types of dmg, power + condition. Call inexperience to someone that has perma 22-25 stacks soloing (not with a group of buffers) and doing 875 power + 875 condition dmg with those 25 stacks of might (90% of the time = 25 stacks, 100% of the time = 22 stacks) not even counting runes + trinkets + upgrades + etc. And lets say I use incendiary ammo while using flame jet, I will do more condition dmg than the direct dmg (Flame jet: Burning: 1s 328 damage, Incendiary ammo: Burning 3s 984 damage, without any condition dmg bonus). You can also drop ur napalm on a group of mobs, no matter if you are sitting down watching ur target or just running and drop it (yeah u can fire it backwards), and if you go kit refinement u deal 1640 burning: damage for 5 secs (328dmg per sec) which of course it is also increased with condition attribute. Oh and if you say, why the hell would I choose that kit refinement? its only 180 radius!, and then I would say, “condition removal every 10 secs”, then you would say, but what about 409? I would say, yeah son, that’s a nice cleaner for your toilet, but I get my kit refinement + med kit’s “Drop Antidote” and I’m ready to go, while at the same time using traits for something else. Where’s the inexperience, son? maybe u just want me to fix my post a lil bit so that you can understand it better?, but… to be honest you are the only one that misunderstood my point. You wanna know more about FT, and combinations with elixirs etc? ask me… bet u still think u cannot pull any dmg out of Elixir S + FT, right? (I’m starting this discussion because I have many tricks up my sleeve)

Naioby.3705:

Oh and if you say, why the hell would I choose that kit refinement? its only 180 radius!, and then I would say, “condition removal ever 10 secs”, then you would say, but what about 409? I would say, yeah son, that’s a nice cleaner for your toilet, but I get my kit refinement + med kit’s “Drop Antidote” and I’m ready to go, while at the same time using traits for something else. Where’s the inexperience, son?

quoting for posterity, kekekittens!

just FT2’s fireball explode on impact. Flamethrower fixed.

BOOM

nakoda.4213:

quoting for posterity, kekekittens!

high five for our awesome profession awesome profession, hurray FT

wolfshirt.8459:

just FT2’s fireball explode on impact. Flamethrower fixed.

BOOM

BOO-YAH!

Naioby.3705:

For the burning per tick, I wanted to show the tag to show how non-realistic is this skill, which “should” provide burn per tick and this is my personal point of view, some ppl likes this idea and some ppl doesn’t. Another way around would be “1 burn for any of the 10 hits” at least this would sound more realistic and at the same time ppl won’t be saying “it’s OP”.

It wouldn’t be OP, considering that’s exactly what Drake’s Breath does for the Elementalist. If we’re to have a conversation about changing it, I don’t see the problem; I just concurrently don’t see a problem with how it works right now, either.

Naioby.3705:

Talking about power based kit vs condition, we are talking about a Flamethrower that spreads fire, and fire has a burning condition dmg, so what are you talking about? this is a mix between 2 different types of dmg, power + condition.

Correction: We are talking about a Flamethrower that spreads fire for, unbuffed, 490 direct damage over 10 attacks and 328 Burning damage. We are also taking about a Flamethrower that shoots a ball of napalm for 244 direct damage and a blast of 569 direct damage.

Between spamming Flame Jet and Flame Blast, the overwhelming majority of your damage will be based not on Condition Damage but Power and Precision. “Call it inexperience” but in my mind it seems pretty obvious the Engineer dual wielding pistols is going to get a lot more out of their Flamethrower stacking Power and Might over Condition Damage and Might, especially if you’re grouped with any other class that also deals Burn damage consistently (i.e., Guardian or Elementalist).

Naioby.3705:

Oh and if you say, why the hell would I choose that kit refinement? its only 180 radius!, and then I would say, “condition removal every 10 secs”, then you would say, but what about 409? I would say, yeah son, that’s a nice cleaner for your toilet, but I get my kit refinement + med kit’s “Drop Antidote” and I’m ready to go, while at the same time using traits for something else. Where’s the inexperience, son? maybe u just want me to fix my post a lil bit so that you can understand it better?, but… to be honest you are the only one that misunderstood my point. You wanna know more about FT, and combinations with elixirs etc? ask me… bet u still think u cannot pull any dmg out of Elixir S + FT, right? (I’m starting this discussion because I have many tricks up my sleeve)

Feel free to click the link in my signature. I began running the FT/EG build back in October when everyone was still shoving the Grenade Kit down my throat, saying it’s the only viable way to play the class.

But please, tell me more about what I would say.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Naioby.3705:

First of all… if you read carefully I was pointing the MISS-MISS when targeting, specially those static objects, and this my friend, is like almost 90% miss all the time specially if you are targeting it.

I still think you’re exaggerating. It will miss from time to time, but 90% of the problem exists between keyboard and chair. Use it properly and this will not be a problem aside from rare instances of Ascalon Catacomb burrows (which I agree needs to be fixed).

I was actually thinking about the AC burrows and the CoF dual static targets when starting the path 1. Both are 90% miss when you START trying to hit em, second cone of fire would be effective if you know how to deal with this bug… but in the end… didn’t I say it is a bug? didn’t I say it should be fixed because it is an old bug? then we both agree, so what’s ur point? and please don’t continue it’s useless u know its a bug and u know I stated that it should be fixed come on, move on. Next question…

Phineas Poe.3018:

Naioby.3705:

For the burning per tick, I wanted to show the tag to show how non-realistic is this skill, which “should” provide burn per tick and this is my personal point of view, some ppl likes this idea and some ppl doesn’t. Another way around would be “1 burn for any of the 10 hits” at least this would sound more realistic and at the same time ppl won’t be saying “it’s OP”.

It wouldn’t be OP, considering that’s exactly what Drake’s Breath does for the Elementalist. If we’re to have a conversation about changing it, I don’t see the problem; I just concurrently don’t see a problem with how it works right now, either.

The problem which ur not seen right now is that the majority of us, engineers, believe that a REAL flamethrower, spreading fire all over a target, would for sure apply burns from the moment u start tossing this lethal flammable liquid or in some cases high pressure propane. So u might not feel a problem but for us its more analogous to throwing a balloon filled with water and just getting hit, without even getting wet O_O wtf hehehe

Phineas Poe.3018:

Naioby.3705:

Talking about power based kit vs condition, we are talking about a Flamethrower that spreads fire, and fire has a burning condition dmg, so what are you talking about? this is a mix between 2 different types of dmg, power + condition.

Correction: We are talking about a Flamethrower that spreads fire for, unbuffed, 490 direct damage over 10 attacks and 328 Burning damage. We are also taking about a Flamethrower that shoots a ball of napalm for 244 direct damage and a blast of 569 direct damage.

Between spamming Flame Jet and Flame Blast, the overwhelming majority of your damage will be based not on Condition Damage but Power and Precision. “Call it inexperience” but in my mind it seems pretty obvious the Engineer dual wielding pistols is going to get a lot more out of their Flamethrower stacking Power and Might over Condition Damage and Might, especially if you’re grouped with any other class that also deals Burn damage consistently (i.e., Guardian or Elementalist).

Ok maybe it’s not inexperience but lack of analysis from your side. Why would I go unbuffed for a dungeon run? and unbuffed with a FT? I’m not that nuts hahaha. Son, if you go for instance, full 25 stacks of might, and you are surrounded with lots of mobs and ur the only one standing alive in a dungeon (I had this many times b4 and I did survive), I wanna see you pew-pew-laser-shots without taking ur FT and swing it with incendiary ammo after you use static shot (confusion + blind) pistols again use torch (spread) then again FT push + attacks…. tell me… how do u survive against that many using just pistols without any other kit? I know I know… u will say, but hey I use some other kits, that’s logic… well that’s the same point I’m trying to let you understand… I won’t use an unbuffed FT, I even have some diff pistols with diff sigils depending on the scenario… not just that… I’m versatile… if you run with me a 9-10 min CoF u will see me using all kinds of stuff (even turrets set on places cannot be reached + mortar O_o) and ppl in my party would go like, wow wtf u could do that with a mortar? (just a hint… mortar = agro + heal + push… great AC… I won’t explain u gotta party me to see it). And since I already see a pattern on how you are thinking while reading my posts, I can step forward and say, “yeah you might say I don’t relly on my FT, but my FT is my 80% in dungeons and any other PvE zone, even PvP” if you go just power, then ur having a single plain dmg with very little cond dmg… if I go my build I have healing, maybe more power and for sure more cond than you might have and both counts when using your FT. So in order to let myself be understandable, what I mean is, you say FT is mostly direct dmg, but you have incendiary ammo + Flame jet burn + 30% burns on crit trait (which are easier to trigger with your Flame Jet) + bleed (eg. if you get sigil of earth thats 60% triggered on crits, with 2 sec CD) and lets not forget our combo field napalm which of course inflicts burn. Do you see me hitting with a pew-pew gun for low dmg and slow shots, or do you see me placing a napalm before I reached my zone then firing Flame jet, switch (get might buff) static + torch + volley, elixir S (get might), FT> Flame jet + inc ammo, napalm, combo aoe might, etc etc etc? I’m stacking more burning duration that anything you would ever do by just shooting a rifle or a pistol, and with 25 stacks cond dmg hurst like lava, and 875 power from it, hits like a truck. Lets say you are going full power… I can go full power too because my runes are almost full power (tbh, my runes has no condition dmg but I have 25 stacks of might almost 100% of the time). You see the numbers u hit, but ur not looking at how much cond dmg you inflict with burns, remember burning is one of the most powerful condition dmg in game, and in order to know what is really taking your hp off (lets say PVP) it is the sum of all the direct dmg (subtracting armor n protective skills etc) + all condition dmg you inflict (I can inflict posion, bleeds, confusion, burns, vulnerability in less than 3 secs). One word, be versatile my friend… that is the main thing of being an engineer, you might love one weapon, one build, but you have to always switch combine and do stuff around, from what you mostly like
For Bruce Lee lover’s would be more like… “Be like water my friend” hehehe (means, don’t stick to one thing, many scenarios different options, if you have the tools use em to adjust yourself and do your best)

Phineas Poe.3018:

But please, tell me more about what I would say.

I just did boo-yah

Naioby.3705:

and please don’t continue it’s useless u know its a bug and u know I stated that it should be fixed come on, move on. Next question…

Right, which is why I ended up just removing it from the post.

Naioby.3705:

Ok maybe it’s not inexperience but lack of analysis from your side. Why would I go unbuffed for a dungeon run? and unbuffed with a FT? I’m not that nuts hahaha.

I never said you should go into anything unbuffed.

You can post photographs over how much damage your Incendiary Ammo toolbelt skill does, but the fact of the matter is that the majority of damage you dish out with your Flamethrower is modified by Power, not Condition Damage. That’s why I said that using Sigil of Strength and Sigil of Bloodlust is a better method for stat allocation. I never said anything about walking into dungeons naked.

Naioby.3705:

and lets not forget our combo field napalm which of course inflicts burn.

And let’s not forget out combo field Napalm which of course grants Area Might on a Blast finisher which buffs the group’s damage as a whole a lot more than some paltry Burn damage.

Naioby.3705:

I’m stacking more burning duration that anything you would ever do by just shooting a rifle or a pistol

Who said anything about shooting a rifle or pistol?

You give me a headache.

we tested the flickering on reflecting objects with the flamethrower with a large race like the norn and a small one like asura.
I think the straining on the eye the flamethrower causes on an asuran characters is related to how close the flamethrower is to the ground.Because flamethrower on norn has very little of the flickering,its not as bad as with the asura:they have the flickering effect all around them

Phineas Poe.3018:

I never said you should go into anything unbuffed.

You didn’t, but you are comparing unbuffed dmgs. Please remember “25 stacks of might” is 875 power and 875 condition dmg. My build is NOT condition dmg and I never said that my build is condition dmg, I think ur misunderstanding. I tried many different builds, and none of them would really give me a good DMG + Survivability on dungeons + PvP (I specialize myself on killing those 6sec burst kill thieves), so I came with my own build, now I have set of 3 pairs of runes which none of them has condition dmg on em, in fact, 4 of them are power + %might duration (the other 2 runes = Not power, Not cond dmg). In my opinion, which I would like to test, is that in a dungeon run, or in PVP I would do more dps dmg than any “plain” power based FT, because I’m not only buffed with a bunch of power, but I’m buffed with 875 cond doing a Flame Jet dmg with incendiary ammo and incendiary powder (trait) which summarizing I would be doing failry more dmg with my “direct dmg + condition dmg” in 3 seconds than a Flame Jet with only plain direct dmg with a lil cond dmg.

Phineas Poe.3018:

the majority of damage you dish out with your Flamethrower is modified by Power, not Condition Damage. That’s why I said that using Sigil of Strength and Sigil of Bloodlust is a better method for stat allocation.

I have experience on sigils, and I will help you with this, Sigil of Bloodlust is a “yes” in PvE, because in PvP it would only give you +5 per kill, and of course you loose all stacks when downed. Sigil of Strength is definitelly a “no”, I tried it, and I had to resell it back, first of all its 30% per crit, so u need a crit to trigger this, not a biggie yeah we all crit like crazy, that’s not the problem, secondly, it has 10 secs of might, but it will only give you 1 stack of might, lastly, you get more benefit from sigil of battle “if” you really know how to use a FT, cuz real pro FT users would not just spam Flame Jet as a 5yo receiving a Xmas present, as pro users we should swap constantly to get most of the dmg done and considering the FAST casting of Static Shot that proc so beautifully with Incendiary Ammo, then immediately casting Blowtorch then swapping to FT + Air Blast (to increase 2 seconds of my insane Blowtorch dmg) then evade backwards (distance) + Flame Blast > Flame Jet twice, then swap pistol > Volley, ETC. Dude while I’m doing this I’m stacking might like crazy, if you party me on any dungeon run I would constantly have 25 stacks while fighting, and 18-22 while running (out of combat). You might say “hahaha Sigil of Battle? u kidding me? it has 9.5 secs CD, while Sigil of Strength has 2 sec CD” then I would say “Sigil of Battle grants 3 stacks of might for 20 seconds, even if it has a CD of 9.5 secs I will still have 3 stacks of might while Sigil of Strenght will grants me 1-2 stacks of might”. I will repeat, I tested this many times, I had both Sigils and I kept Sigil of Battle, I’m a 25 Stack Might runner and I know this for sure.

Phineas Poe.3018:

And let’s not forget out combo field Napalm which of course grants Area Might on a Blast finisher which buffs the group’s damage as a whole a lot more than some paltry Burn damage.

Dude, really? you are talking to someone that has 25 Stacks of Might all the time, u think I don’t know this? I mean… we all know that fire + blast = might, oh and btw its 3 stacks of might in case u didn’t know, rather if you use ur Rocket boots, your Shield blast, Acid bomb, or your Crate (and please don’t mention others cuz I know all combos available and all of results from each one of them). Why don’t you quote the whole phrase man? I was talking about which skills from FT kit causes condition dmg:

you say FT is mostly direct dmg, but you have incendiary ammo + Flame jet burn + 30% burns on crit trait (which are easier to trigger with your Flame Jet) + bleed (eg. if you get sigil of earth thats 60% triggered on crits, with 2 sec CD) and lets not forget our combo field napalm which of course inflicts burn.

It’s clearly your desperate way to expose me as an “inexperienced” FT user as you said, while I’m not. I really laughed when I read what you’ve wrote, come on man, 25 Stacks of might and I tried many FT builds and u say this? ROFL

Phineas Poe.3018:

Who said anything about shooting a rifle or pistol?

You did!

Phineas Poe.3018:

“Call it inexperience” but in my mind it seems pretty obvious the Engineer dual wielding pistols is going to get a lot more out of their Flamethrower stacking Power and Might over Condition Damage and Might

:D

You give me a headache.

ditto hahaha

If you wanna go raw damage, as of this patch, best bet is to juggle the hard hitting skills between flamethrower (all 1 of them), grenade kit (3), and elixir gun (1 skill, but it also has several heals), as well as your main weapon, the rifle, which has 2 hard hitting abilities. While waiting, use grenade kit’s auto attack. 25 might stacks is a present, easily doable build, but the damage you lose out from staying in flamethrower, using 6 might runes (instead of 6 rubies, with regards to PvE), and the critical damage lost from tools (as well as the 10% more damage with full endurance versus 5% while bleeding), just heavily tips it in the non-flamethrower’s favor. While you can still maintain 25 might stacks without flamethrower (22+ easily) with HGH setup, that has the same issue of taking points away from a damage traitline for the sake of more power. 6 stacks of power = ~9% more damage (from a baseline berserker setup, all rubies – taking away the crit damage actually reduces this % by a small amount). That, and you forfeit some of your better damage abilities for elixir B and [elixir of your choice] alongside, well, grenade kit. After the patch, I’m taking flamethrower just for the 2. It hits harder than a level 3 eviscerate on a 6 second cooldown, without the 15% damage trait. Then swap back to grenades and keep hammering away (or elixir gun and pop off acid bomb in your fire field).

Kamahl.3621:

If you wanna go raw damage, as of this patch, best bet is to juggle the hard hitting skills between flamethrower (all 1 of them), grenade kit (3), and elixir gun (1 skill, but it also has several heals), as well as your main weapon, the rifle, which has 2 hard hitting abilities. While waiting, use grenade kit’s auto attack. 25 might stacks is a present, easily doable build, but the damage you lose out from staying in flamethrower, using 6 might runes (instead of 6 rubies, with regards to PvE), and the critical damage lost from tools (as well as the 10% more damage with full endurance versus 5% while bleeding), just heavily tips it in the non-flamethrower’s favor. While you can still maintain 25 might stacks without flamethrower (22+ easily) with HGH setup, that has the same issue of taking points away from a damage traitline for the sake of more power. 6 stacks of power = ~9% more damage (from a baseline berserker setup, all rubies – taking away the crit damage actually reduces this % by a small amount). That, and you forfeit some of your better damage abilities for elixir B and [elixir of your choice] alongside, well, grenade kit. After the patch, I’m taking flamethrower just for the 2. It hits harder than a level 3 eviscerate on a 6 second cooldown, without the 15% damage trait. Then swap back to grenades and keep hammering away (or elixir gun and pop off acid bomb in your fire field).

Really nice comment, I like your points. Now I might even try to put some EG, see how well I can mix with the new patch. Just in case I’m not running 6 might runes, I said 4 might runes, both includes +25 power and +20% might dur, the other 2 runes = not power not cond, it’s my special secret I might post my build after my 3 days vacation starting tomorrow(My gf’s bd). I use FT mostly when I’m surrounded by mobs, and we all know how fast we can hit em + incendiary ammo (ik 3 hits but we do need to count the 30% burn from traits and the last FJ hit) on a fast spin, then switch to pistols static + Blowtorch. In PvP I can lay a napalm and use my explosive shots to do some nice range burning combo and still keep around 20 – 24 might (Sigil of Battle is so kitten sexy). Grenades its also a nice adding, but I preffer nades for WvW. I wouldn’t go full tools cuz if we talk about endurance, in PvP its very rare to have 100% endurance, cuz you are always dodging as a good PvP player. Trinkets, I combine rubies and cond dmg. So we might be almost in the same page, but I still think nades are better in WvW than PvP, my personal opinion. Thanks your’s a very nice and instructive comment.

Naioby.3705:

secondly, it has 10 secs of might, but it will only give you 1 stack of might

Errr … no?

It has a 30% chance to give you 10 seconds of Might. It has a 2-second internal cooldown.

Because the Flame Jet crits often, that means you will often have 5 stacks of Might.

And I never said anything about “shooting a rifle or pistol.” The only time I mentioned weapons in this entire thread is the usefulness of using two sigils with dual pistols. Never said a thing about actually using them.

My apologies to everyone, for my vacation, I couldn’t get a way to check this post, I was out for a short vacation and those 3 days became 8 days because my gf loved it.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Naioby.3705:

secondly, it has 10 secs of might, but it will only give you 1 stack of might

Errr … no?
It has a 30% chance to give you 10 seconds of Might. It has a 2-second internal cooldown.
Because the Flame Jet crits often, that means you will often have 5 stacks of Might.

Omg… seriously? I will contribute with my calculus & personal experience about sigils. The information from wiki shows the following:
*Sigil of Strength has a Cooldown of 2 secs and gives only 1 stack of Might for 10 seconds… it has a 30% to activate on critical hits
*Sigil of Battle has a 9-10 secs Cooldown and gives 3 stacks of Might for 20 seconds!!

We also have to take in consideration this:
“On Critical Hits”
Sigils that trigger on critical hits can trigger on any critical hits dealt by the player, with any skill.
This also means that the percentage will only proc on critical hits. For instance Sigil of Strength has 30% AFTER any of the “Critical” hits you do with any skill or weapon shot.

Now for the calculus a Flame Jet shot has 10 ticks, it lasts for 2 secs and Sigil of Strength has a cool down of 2 secs, which means you can only get 1 stack of might from any of the critical hits you do from all those 10 ticks (and this is IF you get to make any critical at all). Please don’t say “of course we will do crits, we are engs, and we have an FT” I know this, I’m just trying to explain that no matter if you get to make 10 CRITS from all 10 ticks from ONE Flame Jet shot… you will still get 1 stack of might. So try to think about this:

Flame Jet, the information in wiki says 2.25 secs = 10 ticks. I tested it with a chronometer and it is exactly 2 seconds. The channeling bar also lasts for 2 seconds, I also know that from the first hit that lands on a target, to the last tick/hit its about 1.97 seconds or even less, so I don’t know where does the 2.25 secs in wiki comes from, maybe they count the small smoke fx after shot?

So having your Flame Jet providing 10 ticks in 2 seconds, and the Sigil of Strength having a 2sec CD, and also knowing that the 30% only counts AFTER each crit (which means that there is 70% of NOT getting sigil to proc on a crit) you should at least have one of the crits from 10 ticks to proc, but you still have a 2 sec cooldown, in conclusion you can ONLY receive one stack of might per 10 ticks of 1 Flame Jet shot, and if you have a very low Crit Chance then, you might even end up with no extra stack of might from the sigil. Let’s remember that the NEXT shot of Flame Jet would be ready after half second, unless ur under Quickness boon (I tested this many times with a chronometer). So if we do a simple calculus we have 1 stack of might every 2.5 seconds (I’m counting the time that takes to shoot your NEXT FJ), and it will only last for 10 seconds, while Sigil of Battle you get 3 stacks of might instantly by swapping and it will last for 20 seconds. Now let’s use some math for the long term effect:
10 seconds of Might duration from Sigil of Strength diveded into 2.5 secs of each line of fire equals to 4 SHOTS of Flame Jet, and it will provide 3 or 4 stacks of might and the calculus goes as follows:
1rst shot = less than 2.5 seconds of Might
2nd shot = less than 5 seconds of Might
3rd shot = less than 7.5 seconds of Might
4rth shot = less than 10 seconds of Might
This data above shows 4 stacks of Might, provided that the last FJ tick “did” crit and also “did” proc the 30% from the sigil. Therefore the reason I stipulate “Less than” is because you will probably get the stack of Might at the first crit or any other crit, and it will start counting from the moment you got the stack.

For example, from 10 ticks you did 7 crits, from which only the crit #2 and #5 did proc the 30% from the sigil, BUT you have 2 sec CD which means you only received one stack of Might from the crit # 2, and this crit #2 activated on the 3rd tick, which is around 0.3 seconds after the first FJ hit, so math goes like this 2.5 – 0.3 = 2.2 seconds past the beginning of stack till the end of the FJ shot, once you finished the first shot of FJ you will have 1 stack of might with 7.8 seconds LEFT (2.2 – 10 = 7.8) and NOT 10 seconds left. You will barelly see 4 stacks because the last stack of might will usually last LESS than 1 second most of the time.
Having this explanation we can asume the following conclusions:
1. You will “most of the time” have 3 stacks of Might using Sigil of Strength after 10 seconds
2. GW2 boons has no decimals shown, for instance, condition duration is rounded to nearest quarter of a second (0s, ¼, ½, ¾ and 1s). As for Boons I’m not sure how it is rounded, probably to half second or a quarter, but for sure it is rounded, so if you have 0.14 seconds left of Might = 0 secs of duration = Zero Stacks of Might.
3. You ONLY get one stack of Might from a single FJ shot.
4. Sigil of Battle gives you instant 3 Stacks of Might which means, while you are FJ shooting me with +35 power & cond on some hits (you usually won’t get might on the first tick, let’s get real), I will shoot you with +105 power & cond EVERY tick.
5. After 5 seconds you will only have 2 stacks of Might. After 10 seconds you will have 3 or 4 stacks of Might from Sigil of Strength. And if I use Sigil of Battle, during all 5 seconds I will have 3 stacks of Might (while you only had 1 or 2) and then after 10 seconds I will have 6 stacks of Might (while you have 3 or 4) because this Sigil’s stacks lasts for 20 seconds, while Sigil of Strength only lasts 10 seconds. I will do more dmg with Sigil of battle in a short period of time and in long term as well. Also let’s not forget that the “Sigil of Strength’s 4rth stack of might” wont last for more than 1 tick (and this is IF you are lucky to get that 4rth tick). Besides you won’t be able to stack as much as you can with Sigil of Battle (20 secs of Might).

Phineas Poe.3018:

Errr … no?
It has a 30% chance to give you 10 seconds of Might. It has a 2-second internal cooldown.
Because the Flame Jet crits often, that means you will often have 5 stacks of Might.

As for your reply…
Errr… YES!
“You will OFTEN have 2 stacks of might after 5 seconds and you will still have 3 stacks of Might after 10 seconds, while I will ALWAYS have 3 stacks of might since the first second, and 6 stacks of might after 10 seconds”

So the big question is where did you see 5 stacks of Might? lol… maybe you are confusing your current stacks out from Juggernaut trait? or maybe… “inexperience”?

Naioby.3705:

You will barelly see 4 stacks because the last stack of might will usually last LESS than 1 second most of the time.

All Might buffs from Strength last for 10+ seconds. There is no “first” or “last” stack. The only limitation is the 2-second cooldown.

Regardless, you’re neglecting to consider boon duration buffs from Alchemy and Altruism runes that I’m pretty sure I mentioned that I use (+35%). If you just put on a Sigil of Strength and tested it yourself you’d see it gives you five stacks of Might.

Edit: I think I confused this thread with another. Either way, you should account for boon duration buffs in your math. Any serious FT Engineer is going to at least have 20% from speccing into Alchemy for Deadly Mixture.

it’s pretty basic math, yep.

10 second buff on 2 sec cooldown.

Regardless of crit proc rate, that means a potential for 5 concurrent stacks during a prolonged fight such as boss encounters, farming, or point defense.

with 40% boon duration that is 14 seconds per stack, which actually adds another stack and a bit to the “permanent” might stacking, so sigil of strength grants around 6 stacks.

sorry im not a calculus major, Naiboy, and I am glad you have a girlfriend and all (but let’s be honest, no one here gives a rat’s kitten where you’ve been or who you’ve been with), but your attitude is kitty litter.

a traited FT user can look forward to:
sigil of strengh can stack up to 6 times.
you can get up to 6 stacks from Enhanced Performance
you can get up to 8 stacks from juggernaut.

the average, traited FT user will roll with an average of 18-20 SELF APPLIED might stacks during the average fight. I often have 20-25 because of contributions from other players. In PvE I show off how lazy I am being if I have LESS than 25 by myself.

Sigil of Strength may only be 30% chance per crit, but when you have 80% crit, that is a 24% chance on EVERY ATTACK to apply might. which means that on average, every 2.25 second FT 1 strike will apply 1-2 stacks of might. On paper.

In actual game play, it procs all the time. You do not have to sit there and spam it.

Sigil of Strength works if you have FT equipped?

all sigils work with kits equipped.

nakoda.4213:

it’s pretty basic math, yep.

10 second buff on 2 sec cooldown.

Regardless of crit proc rate, that means a potential for 5 concurrent stacks during a prolonged fight such as boss encounters, farming, or point defense.

with 40% boon duration that is 14 seconds per stack, which actually adds another stack and a bit to the “permanent” might stacking, so sigil of strength grants around 6 stacks.

sorry im not a calculus major, Naiboy, and I am glad you have a girlfriend and all (but let’s be honest, no one here gives a rat’s kitten where you’ve been or who you’ve been with), but your attitude is kitty litter.

a traited FT user can look forward to:
sigil of strengh can stack up to 6 times.
you can get up to 6 stacks from Enhanced Performance
you can get up to 8 stacks from juggernaut.

the average, traited FT user will roll with an average of 18-20 SELF APPLIED might stacks during the average fight. I often have 20-25 because of contributions from other players. In PvE I show off how lazy I am being if I have LESS than 25 by myself.

Sigil of Strength may only be 30% chance per crit, but when you have 80% crit, that is a 24% chance on EVERY ATTACK to apply might. which means that on average, every 2.25 second FT 1 strike will apply 1-2 stacks of might. On paper.

In actual game play, it procs all the time. You do not have to sit there and spam it.

I just did some tests in the mist with STR, FIRE, Hoelbrak runes + 30 in alchemy.
With strength i could keep 9 stacks of might up permanently vs the golems. With battle i could have 12 sometimes spiking to 15, however i had to keep track of when to swap weapon but it also allow me to keep my might stacks up even when i’m not shooting aslong as i’m in combat..

with only 20 points in alchemy and no +duration runes you can self apply 9-12 stacks of might with just juggernaut and enhanced performance before firing a single shot.

I was just playing moments ago.

I just ask for two things that would instantly make flamethrower more viable for a primary weapon source in spvp combat.

Increase damage at around100 range like blunderbuss or blowtorch. This would keep it balanced at a short range AE weapon, but allow you to do comparitable damage to other professions who want to fight you in mellee range (or even other engineers with bombs O.O).

Also i think fire blast the number 2 skill should be a blast finisher, so you have some kind of synergy with your napalm wall if you can land the fireball in it.

Honestly do that, and it’d instantly be worth speccing around in spvp.

nakoda.4213:

with only 20 points in alchemy and no +duration runes you can self apply 9-12 stacks of might with just juggernaut and enhanced performance before firing a single shot.

I was just playing moments ago.

Forgot to mention, i did my test without either enhanced performance or juggernaut, just to keep track of the sigils

Vuh.1328:

nakoda.4213:

with only 20 points in alchemy and no +duration runes you can self apply 9-12 stacks of might with just juggernaut and enhanced performance before firing a single shot.

I was just playing moments ago.

Forgot to mention, i did my test without either enhanced performance or juggernaut, just to keep track of the sigils

indeed! cool. I will have to try battle again. it’s honestly been awhile, but Ive always fared well with strength. I have 63-83% crit (fury), so strength procs frequently.

Lupanic.6502:

Sigil of Strength works if you have FT equipped?

Yes. Sigils now work with our kits.

I use Strength and Bloodlust simultaneously by dual wielding pistols.

@Phineas Poe.3018
@nakoda.4213

Myself, I am a “Might stacker” and I really know when I set things into math. These calculus were made without taking consideration any boon duration runes or traits or anything at all. I have set of runes to extend ONLY Might that means +20% each PAIR of runes. I’m not even talking about those 15% boon duration runes, Im talking +20% and I am running with alchemy + firearms which means I have extra boon duration and juggernaut. I get 9 stacks of Might by just standing with my FT, and if I boost myself I get 25 stacks of might easily just by tossing stuff and it will remain there without any effort. I didn’t want to mention or add into calculus any boon duration bonus or runes, etc for a VERY simple reason: “Sigil of Battle will stack even MORE than Sigil of Strength if I get Might duration runes and traits with alchemy!!!”

Guys I don’t want to raise any sarcasm but for real you have to think before posting, I do research every single time I post to make sure I wont mislead or give false information or erroneous data. This is BASIC mathematics:

(10 secs duration of might from Sigil of Strength * 20 percent extra might duration from just one pair of runes) / 100 percent
EQUALS TO = extra 2 seconds + 10 seconds = 12 seconds total

20 secs duration of might from Sigil of Battle * 20 percent extra might duration from just one pair of runes) / 100 percent
EQUALS TO = extra 4 seconds + 20 seconds = 24 seconds

With Sigil of Strength, I would only get 11 to 13 (out from 5 tries just one gave me 13 and lasted for less than half a second) stacks of might during all the process of KILLING a Heavy Golem at sPvP, that means finish depleting all his hp bar and making him dissapear. Also the first 1 hit I would only have 9 – 10 stacks of Might then the second to the 4rth Flame Jet (total of 40 ticks) I would only have 10 to 11 stacks of Might. Even with high precision I would still fail sometimes to get 1 stack of Might.

With Sigil of Battle, I would directly get 12 to 13 stacks of might saying (9 to 10 Juggernaut) + 3 = 12 to 13 stacks of Might from the FIRST tick of 1 Flame Jet. Then “during” and “after” finishing and killing the Heavy Golem I would have 14 to 16 stacks of might. The wacky thing is, after destroying the Golem, I would just sit down with my stacks hanging there for extra seconds and I would even see it go up while I was eating a pizza (and I’m not exaggerating). After 5 Golems it would be the same result and same numbers, its constant, its INSTANT, and it is DIRECT.

When I went to try Sigil of Strength with the group of golems for SEVERAL minutes continuously hitting my numerical key “1” for FJ, Sigil of Strength would only go as far as 16-19 stacks of Might, usually having only 16 or 17 stacks, after 20 minutes I was lucky and I had 20 stacks of might which lasted for. . . . Less than a QUARTER of a second -_- (0.25 secs)

Same experiment with Sigil of Battle gave me 19 to 22 stacks of Might, and whenever I would get 22 stacks, it would last a little more than 2 seconds! I used a metronome and I also used a chronometer. I even tested without counting those 9.5 seconds to swap, you know, as we normally play, using our common sense and I was able to have constant 19 to 20 stacks of Might. Damage was ALWAYS there.

If you guys didn’t know, Might makes your current condition dmg vary, so if you inflicted burn or any other condition dmg, it will get weaker if your MIGHT goes down, EVEN if you had 25 stacks of Might when u applied the condition dmg, it will decrease its damage along with your stacks going down the hill. In a game that you are always thinking that you have to make as much dmg as possible before HE or SHE kills you, this is what it really counts and please TELL ME if I’m wrong? O_O
You might want to play a hit and run game and you want to just throw a flame blast with incendiary ammo while you are hidding behind a rock and then wait for someone else to kill that guy, if that’s the gameplay you like then ok, use the sigils you want, I wont even bother you, but here we are talking of a dmg from the first tick to the last tick and till the time your oponent is down and the viability of a sigil, so you wont be buffing like crazy and concentrated into buffing yourself to keep 25 stacks of Might. You can easily enjoy of + 37 seconds of Might and keep hitting your target and make some real dmg, instead of just being a cheerleader buffing yourself without shooting a thing + standing beside your comrades that are sweating hitting mobs in dungeons.

I TESTED this myself. I took one hour to really make sure I didn’t skip anything, and I did this two days, so I really know what I am saying.

nakoda.4213:

with only 20 points in alchemy and no +duration runes you can self apply 9-12 stacks of might with just juggernaut and enhanced performance before firing a single shot.

I get 10 stacks of might with Juggernaut + rune of fire + rune of strength + rune of hoelbrak, and I just need hit one bullet then swap, and I have in a blink of a eye 13 stacks of might while the first hit (1 tick from all 10 ticks) with Sigil of Strength will only have 10 Stacks of Might maybe 11, and it will be that much for the entire 10 ticks while I have 13 stacks of Might. My point is simple, Sigil of Battle stacks more than sigil of strength; the only way Sigil of Strength could be useful for a FT is if ANET fixes the bug that sigil’s has with mixing cooldowns and getting a sick 45 sec cooldown as wiki said, I also tested it and its true its bugged. If they fix it I would even go for Sigil of Strength + Sigil of Battle, but for now the best choice is Sigil of Battle.

Here’s someone else that tested it having a similar test:

Vuh.1328:

I just did some tests in the mist with STR, FIRE, Hoelbrak runes + 30 in alchemy.
With strength i could keep 9 stacks of might up permanently vs the golems. With battle i could have 12 sometimes spiking to 15, however i had to keep track of when to swap weapon but it also allow me to keep my might stacks up even when i’m not shooting aslong as i’m in combat..

i did my test without either enhanced performance or juggernaut, just to keep track of the sigils

I’m not the only one who tested this, and you are totally welcome to try even for 2 hours. Probably after 1 hour you will get lucky to match 22 stacks of Might using Sigil of Strength but I will tell you this "are you going to be standing in front a GC mesmer or a Burst thief for 1 hour untill u get to hit him with 22 stacks? LOL NO

No matter how you test it, it will always show that Sigil of Battle works better for FT than Sigil of Strength and we all agree with it and its math.

Phineas Poe.3018:

All Might buffs from Strength last for 10+ seconds. There is no “first” or “last” stack. The only limitation is the 2-second cooldown.

You are always trying to contradict my assertions without even thinking. Check this example of a boon which has a Similarity with the duration behavior of Might duration:
wiki gw2 – Effect stacking:
“Example 10 seconds of regeneration are applied to a target from a level 80 player with 1500 Healing Power. 5 seconds later, 10 seconds of regeneration are applied to a target from a level 80 player with 2000 Healing Power. The player will experience 317.5 health per second for the first 5 seconds, then 380 health per second for the next 10 seconds, then 317.5 health per second for the next 5 seconds.
wiki gw2 – Sigil says:
“On-critical sigils
Sigils that trigger on critical hits will trigger on any critical hit dealt by the player, including those from utility skills and toolbelt skills. However, they do not trigger on criticals from mesmer illusions or engineer turrets.”

Flame Jet does 10 ticks and takes 2 seconds to get all 10 ticks to hit. this means 0.2 seconds per tick. Also you don’t hit 20 ticks in 2 seconds, u do only 10 and each tick is single not double. Sigil of Strength gives 10 seconds everytime 30% procs on a critical hit. You DON’T get 10 critical hits in 1 SECOND, and you CANNOT get more than 1 stack of might in less than 2 seconds (CD), so how the hell do you think u will have 16 stacks of might and they would all last for 10 secs? is that what you thought???? dear son, you have guide about FT and you don’t know something this simple and you even dare to say it without even investigating or testing it by yourself?

Ok listen and learn, and please pay attention this time Mr. Phineas:
*The first time you activate Flame Jet, you will do 10 ticks in 2 seconds, which will most probably will proc 1 stack of Might.
*After the last hit from Flame Jet, you will have a penalty time of 0.5 seconds UNLESS you are under QUICKNESS boon.
*Quickness is an effect that makes all skills and actions activate twice as fast. (http://wiki.guildwars2.com)
*This makes you to have 1 stack of Might after 2.5 seconds of firing your Flame Jet
*Flame Jet’s Critical hit is calculated separately for each of the 10 ticks. Critical hits will proc effects from traits that activate on critical hits. (http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Flame_Jet)
*Lemme give you an easier example, If you had 4 crits in 10 ticks, and lets say only 2 of those 4 crits proc the sigil of Strength (30% chance on crit), then ASK yourself, which one of those two will stack your might? both? NO, because you have a 2 sec cooldown, so obviously it’s the first crit that did proc and that one was one of those 4 crits u had. Now lets call each one of those 4 crits like A, B, C, D and let’s say that B and D did proc, but only B will take effect because after B there is gonna be 2 secs CD. The Crit called B happened in 0.6 secs after the first Flame Jet tick, and thats when u received one stack of might. Now math shows Math 2 secs – 0.6 secs = 1.4 secs which means that by the END of all your 10 ticks you will have 1 stack of Might that STARTED with 10 seconds but already passed 1.4 secs, so your stack of Might will have 8.6 seconds LEFT. Then 0.5 to be able to SHOOT your Flame Jet again is also added as a sum, 1.4 + 0.5 = already passed 1.9 seconds since the first stack of Might and it will be 10 – 1.9 = 8.1 seconds of Might LEFT, which in your boon tag will show 8 secs (rounded). after 0.1 secs you will be able to reapply Sigil of Strength, so lets say u were lucky and you get 1 stack of Might in the first hit which DID crit and DID proc (nice coincidence) that would be, 10 secs of 1stack of Might + 8 seconds of Might from Flame Jet #1 crit B. If you don’t understand this, then probably this is way too advanced to you, but I’m sure in this forum there are many ppl that will understand what I am saying and would know this is true.

You don’t get all stacks having the same value, if so then, have you ever noticed your juggernout adding every 3 secs 1 stack of might that lasts for 15 secs? please try this experiment “WITHOUT” duration runes n stuff… Turn on your FT wait for the stacks to grow every 3 seconds till you get 7 stacks, and then afterwards unload your FT and see the numbers going down one by one (not all AT ONCE) every 15 secs. This is the same that happens every time you get a stack of Might from Sigil of Strength. One by one comes, and one by one goes off. Sigil of Battle is different because you receive 3 stacks at ONCE whenever u swap while in combat.

So Phineas, you should really be careful when saying things without even thinking, I love to find details and test everything, and as I previously said, everyone is welcomed to test sPvP Heavy Golems with Runes of Strength+Fire+Hoelbrak and then the sigils to see that the values I mentioned here were NOT lies.

(I’m sorry for any typo but its 5am right now, and my brain has been calculating stuff and even testing all that I said once again)

the difference is that you leave ft because you don’t like it.

I swap out to net shot or medkit briefly then im back in FT. jugs might “loss” is minimal.

Naioby.3705:

You DON’T get 10 critical hits in 1 SECOND, and you CANNOT get more than 1 stack of might in less than 2 seconds (CD), so how the hell do you think u will have 16 stacks of might and they would all last for 10 secs?

I never said that I do get 10 critical hits in 1 second or that I can get more than 1 stack of Might in less than 2 seconds. Where are you reading any of this in my posts?

I said that Sigil of Strength can give five stacks of Might. Just in case you forgot, I’ll re-quote the post that started this debate.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Naioby.3705:

secondly, it has 10 secs of might, but it will only give you 1 stack of might

Errr … no?

It has a 30% chance to give you 10 seconds of Might. It has a 2-second internal cooldown.

Because the Flame Jet crits often, that means you will often have 5 stacks of Might.

I don’t know why this is such a hard thing for you to accept. It’s an on-crit sigil with a two second cooldown. If your individual Might stacks each last 10 seconds, that means you can get five stacks of Might sustained from Sigil of Strength while using the Flamethrower.

That’s all my point ever was. If you think Sigil of Battle works better for you then by all means continue to use it. But I’ve had great success with Strength and have had no troubles sustaining it with my playstyle. Let’s put an end to the silly remarks like whether or not you think fourth grade math is “too advanced” for me.

nakoda.4213:

the difference is that you leave ft because you don’t like it.

I swap out to net shot or medkit briefly then im back in FT. jugs might “loss” is minimal.

Dear fellow engineer, why do you have to read my messages the wrong way? I mean I already have enough with Mr. Phineas trying to look good when hes providing wrong information, and now you want to say “I don’t like FT?”. I said, I am a Might stacker, I am an FT user, the only thing is, I really know the PRO-way to counter different professions and builds, at least those that are really nasty such as the burst thief, for which I mostly use my FT in sPvP, and as for PvE you can see me 90% of the time with FT, the rest of the time I’m switching with pistols and other skills, and depending on whats coming I would even get some other skills, I’m not fixed into one thing, but for sure FT will be in my line of skills. I “clearly” said I would take off my FT to lay some napalm wall to combo fire-bullets with it, I DIDN’T say I only use that skill from my FT, and I NEVER said I don’t like FT please… don’t make my life harder, you know I’m not even pointing at you, I just wanted to make CLEAR and I proved with math and calculus and I even tried and tested many times to show that Sigil of Battle stacks MORE than Sigil of Strength, we all learn new stuff and I learned things last year from other posts, and I accept if I get wrong, if someone really shows me I am, with numbers and tests. That’s part of learning. I even said, that if you still like to use Sigil of Strength it’s all your choice, lets remember that if you want to get stacks with Sigil of Battle you really have to have an internal bio-chronometer to swap the right moment twice, else you wont stack that well, you need to know what chain skills to use when u swap to give you the right amount of time and the best DMG in just a couple of seconds and this is why I’m centering in Might stacks for my build. With Sigil of Strength is as simple as keep firing and get stacks slowly, but the stacks will go off FAST, while I do my fast swap twice in exactly 10 secs and I get my 25 stacks faster than any Sigil of Strength user would, and not just that, my stacks will still remain there without any hustle of self buffing every second. I even proved that with Sigil of Strength you ONLY get like 19 Stacks of Might if you hit like crazy for 20 minutes consecutively to a GROUP of golems, usually you would only have like 15 or 16 stacks (JUST sigil of strength,+all 60% runes and alchemy, juggernaut, etc, NO extra buff, elixirs, etc), while I can easily get in just a couple of seconds get 22 stacks and they will stay there, and this is just having my sigil of battle, I proved it with numbers in my last post, you all know this is true and you can test it, feel free to do it, there has been some other ppl that already tried this.

I really appreciate your comments and I have seen your posts in some other topics and they were really nice and I can see the same interest you have for FT as I do. Thanks a lot Mr. Nakoda

Rare Veggie Pizza+Incendiary Ammo theres your burning :P

Phineas Poe.3018:

Naioby.3705:

You DON’T get 10 critical hits in 1 SECOND, and you CANNOT get more than 1 stack of might in less than 2 seconds (CD), so how the hell do you think u will have 16 stacks of might and they would all last for 10 secs?

I never said that I do get 10 critical hits in 1 second or that I can get more than 1 stack of Might in less than 2 seconds. Where are you reading any of this in my posts?

I really don’t understand people like you, you know you were wrong, you saw the facts I pointed and they were all very clear, YET you still want to find a way to miss-interpret my words and make you feel like you are right? come on, that’s really low, I would never do that and I would for sure accept if I’m wrong. I will show you by quoting stuff you are avoiding, in order to make me look bad.

Phineas Poe.3018:

All Might buffs from Strength last for 10+ seconds. There is no “first” or “last” stack. The only limitation is the 2-second cooldown.

You are saying that all Might Buffs from Strength lasts for 10+ seconds and that there is no FIRST nor LAST stack, which means that you are saying “if I get X stacks from Sigil of Strength, all those X stacks will last for Y seconds… so after Y seconds all the X stacks will go off at the same time”, so lets replace with numbers else I know you will once again misinterpret my words if I use the 10+ thing…. so ok, I don’t know how well is your grammar but I will try to show you what you meant with your statement since I am an English teacher at a University in China (I’m american):
For example let’s take X = 5 stacks, Y = 14 seconds:
with your statement, and taking these example values, you meant this:
“if I get 5 stacks of Might from Sigil of Strength, all those 5 stacks will last for 14 seconds. Then, after 14 seconds, all 5 stacks will go off at the same time”
Maybe you didn’t mean this, maybe you were tired and you wrote this and you made yourself sound as you don’t know how Might stacks works, but, to be honest this is what you meant, and you saw my last post I was very clear on how the stacks work and I got information about it and I even tested it by myself for 2 days running 3 tests which 2 lasted for 1 hour, one lasted for 30 min and one lasted for 1hour and 20 minutes or so.
?

Phineas Poe.3018:

I don’t know why this is such a hard thing for you to accept. It’s an on-crit sigil with a two second cooldown. If your individual Might stacks each last 10 seconds, that means you can get five stacks of Might sustained from Sigil of Strength while using the Flamethrower.

Stop F. with me and please read my posts, I know this before the word “pizza” was ever dreamed of, I even posted the definition from wiki, you just want to look cool after all things that I’ve tested and proved that I am right. Check my two quotes from last posts:

Naioby.3705:

wiki gw2 – Sigil says:
“On-critical sigils
Sigils that trigger on critical hits will trigger on any critical hit dealt by the player, including those from utility skills and toolbelt skills. However, they do not trigger on criticals from mesmer illusions or engineer turrets.”

And this one too:

We also have to take in consideration this:
“On Critical Hits”
Sigils that trigger on critical hits can trigger on any critical hits dealt by the player, with any skill.
This also means that the percentage will only proc on critical hits. For instance Sigil of Strength has 30% AFTER any of the “Critical” hits you do with any skill or weapon shot.

Naioby.3705:

The information from wiki shows the following:
*Sigil of Strength has a Cooldown of 2 secs and gives only 1 stack of Might for 10 seconds… it has a 30% to activate on critical hits

You are just trolling dude, and I’m proving that you are, so please stop it. I say something and you just want to turn it on your side so that you won’t look like “out of place”.

As for your beloved 5 stacks of Might I also proved (I don’t know if you at least take a time to read my posts) that you can get your beloved extra 5 stacks IF you have all runes +30 alchemy and etc, and you can even extra 10 stacks of Might + your Juggernaut (making 19 or 20 stacks for a very short duration) which you can only get by spraying like crazy to a GROUP of static NON-AGRO golems to get multiple Crits for 20 minutes to be lucky enough to reach that much stacks, but I will get around 22 stacks of Might in just a couple of seconds, it’s a FACT and I proved it. You cannot refute the fact that Sigil of Battle stacks more SPECIALLY if you use all those runes you wanted me to put into consideration, 60% extra Might duration its crazy +30Alchemy and specs… it is MATH and we all know that “the bigger the number, the bigger result you get from a percentage” while you get almost18 seconds with all runes n’ stuff for each stack of your beloved Sigil of Strength, I am getting 37 seconds for just swapping my FT and instant 3 stacks of Might… C A N U B E A T T H A T ?

I took some crazy time to answer to you because I have a present for you, a very hard screenshot to show you a big difference and you can use it for your own calculus to see how well I can stack Might using Sigil of Battle.
“http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sigil_of_Battle says:
Gain 3 stacks of Might (20 seconds) when you swap to this weapon while in combat.
These sigil have an internal 10 second cooldown.”
So those 20 seconds became 37 seconds, you can swap 4 TIMES getting 3 stacks of Might, that’s 12 STACKS.
VERY IMPORTANT & TODAY’s TEST: To get a miracle of 10 stacks of Might with Sigil of Strength I had to spend 2 minutes constantly hitting a GROUP of golems to get many crits to get one to proc Sigil of Strength and after 20 minutes that’s all I could get, and it wouldn’t even last for long. While with Sigil of Battle after 30 seconds, without even hitting something just remaining in combat, I had 12 stacks and I was able to keep it 12 stacks for 20 minutes CONSTANTLY by just swapping and getting 3 stacks of might with 37 secs duration each.

Phineas Poe.3018:

That’s all my point ever was. If you think Sigil of Battle works better for you then by all means continue to use it. But I’ve had great success with Strength and have had no troubles sustaining it with my playstyle. Let’s put an end to the silly remarks like whether or not you think fourth grade math is “too advanced” for me.

Yup keep using ur Sigil of Strength, people that want to really learn something will for sure accept and keep on with humbleness, but in your case it seems you always want to show you are right, when everyone proves you wrong.
No more math or English classes, I already did all I could to explain as simplest as I could.

tl;dr strength sucks, battle rocks

Vuh.1328:

tl;dr strength sucks, battle rocks

XD hahaha

I for one would choose Sigil of Battle over Sigil of Strength. Here’s my reasoning:

Flame Jet may be a continuous string of 10 hits over 2.25 seconds, but it’s a #1 auto-attack.

Auto-attacks are never meant to be spammed until someone dies. You have to intersperse other attacks between these auto attacks. These attacks can delay your auto-attack spam by anywhere from 1 second to 2 seconds.

FJ’s Strength building concept only works if you sit there and don’t do anything else but Auto-Attack.

Sigil of Strength stacks might extremely fast with this, but you won’t get the optimum damage. Your average damage WILL be lower regardless of these might stacks if you just sit and spam FJ.

Sigil of Strength also requires you to be in combat attacking AND hitting AND critting to maintain might stacks. Once you stop that, your stacks will start to dwindle quickly.

Sigil of Battle, however, requires only a button push to give you 3 stacks of might. No combat. No hitting. No Critting. However, it does require you to be on your toes and keeping conscious of when you can swap over.

Sigil of Strength is designed to be weaker than Sigil of Battle because Sigil of Strength doesn’t need manual application management. If a player plays his strategies right, he can get more stacks of Might through Battle than through Strength.

10 seconds of Might x 30% from Alchemy traits =3 extra seconds = 1 extra might stack

20 seconds of Might x 30% from Alchemy traits = 6 extra seconds = 3 extra might stacks

In the end, you can get 6-9 stacks of might constantly from overlapping intervals with Sigil of Battle, where Sigil of Strength will only net you 5-6 stacks of might possible from overlapping intervals. IF you are constantly hitting and critting on something AND using FJ constantly. Very big if, especially for moving and dodging enemies.

Battle wins over Strength in the Might game, especially since experienced players usually don’t sit and spam #1 constantly.

Edit: However . .

With Juggernaut added in, you get another 6-7 stacks of might with about a 1 second overlapping interval. Most people who choose Sigil of Strength will also choose Juggernaut as it helps them get higher stacks.

If you choose Juggernaut and swap out constantly, you maintain probably closer to the 4-5 range (overlapping interval of about 2 seconds). I’m betting it’s closer to 3-4 stacks from Juggernaut, though.

With this added to my Strength vs Battle comparison, this buffs Strength-users to possibly 11-13 stacks in a 1-2 second overlap interval. Battle users get between 9 – 13 stacks with a 6 second overlap interval.

It’s not hard to figure out Battle > Strength. For engineers, you should be juggling kits anyway to maintain ideal damage output. 6 > 5.

Kamahl.3621:

It’s not hard to figure out Battle > Strength. For engineers, you should be juggling kits anyway to maintain ideal damage output. 6 > 5.

I know, but sometimes people need pen laid to paper instead of just folks arguing “Strength is better!” and “Battle is better!”

The posters before me have laid their reasons out, and I’ve laid mine. Hopefully this makes readers decide which way they want to play.

Naioby.3705:

Yup keep using ur Sigil of Strength, people that want to really learn something will for sure accept and keep on with humbleness, but in your case it seems you always want to show you are right, when everyone proves you wrong.

I’ve been wrong plenty of times on this forum and on Guru. I’m not above being corrected—seems more here you just can’t stand the idea of someone using a setup different from yours.

If Sigil of Battle works better for your playstyle, great. Continue to use it. But for the way I use my Flamethrower I’m satisfied with Strength. One extra stack of Might isn’t really a big deal considering I get to 25 anyway without it, considering I primarily use my Flamethrower in PvE in group settings where I’m not the only one stacking Might.

Never once in this thread did I ever say that Sigil of Strength is a better choice than Sigil of Battle. My only contention was you trying to say that Strength only gives one stack of Might every ten seconds when it actually gives 5 (or 6 over 12 with Boon Duration buffs).

Either way, like Sporadicus, I’ve made my point. I’ll give you the final word here.

Jarin Arenos.2736:

Paulytnz.7619:

Fix for the flamethrower missing – Stop moving before attacking stationary targets. There done. It only misses if you are MOVING and trying to target a stationary target. Dunno why this happens but it does.

There are plenty of times that I can’t hit a stationary target at all regardless of where I stand or how still I am. As my secondary kit is elixir gun, I’m regularly reduced to autoattacking to damage stationary targets.

Actually, the solution to hit a stationary target is pretty simple…but weird.
The problem lies within A-NET’s borked combat system “FPS combat with the limitations of an MMO”.
That it hasn’t been fixed yet is beyond me to the point were I wonder that A-NET actually don’t know about it at all.

Target a stationary object, hold your right mouse button and pull the mouse away from you so you are looking down on the ground.
All your attacks with the flamer WILL miss.

Pull the mouse towards you so you’re looking up into the sky, watch all your attacks with the flamer…HIT.

This MUST be done with the right mouse button as it is the “aim camera” while the left mouse button is the “look camera”.
Just imagine that the right mouse button controls an invisible “aiming reticle”.

I guess it has something to do with the elevation of an “immobile object plus the elevation of the player multiplied by your right mouse-button-camera-angle divided by a cake with pie on top”….or something.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Never once in this thread did I ever say that Sigil of Strength is a better choice than Sigil of Battle. My only contention was you trying to say that Strength only gives one stack of Might every ten seconds when it actually gives 5 (or 6 over 12 with Boon Duration buffs).

Either way, like Sporadicus, I’ve made my point. I’ll give you the final word here.

Sorry, not to bother you or something but, I never said you only get 1 stack of Might every ten seconds, I said you only get one stack of might every 10 ticks which happens in 2 seconds (I used chronometer and its 2 secs since the first hit to the 10th last hit, not 2.25 as wiki says)

This is what I said:

Naioby.3705:

… in conclusion you can ONLY receive one stack of might per 10 ticks of 1 Flame Jet shot

Oh and btw…

Phineas Poe.3018:

… every ten seconds when it actually gives 5 (or 6 over 12 with Boon Duration buffs).

No, you can’t get 12 stacks of Might in 10 secs, it’s totally impossible I tried with all +60% Might duration runes and all +30 alch and every spec from traits. All I got was 10 stacks of Might after 2 big minutes of hitting a whole group of golems (many crits = more chances to get proc). Now imagine if you would only hit one single target?

Naioby.3705:

Phineas Poe.3018:

Never once in this thread did I ever say that Sigil of Strength is a better choice than Sigil of Battle. My only contention was you trying to say that Strength only gives one stack of Might every ten seconds when it actually gives 5 (or 6 over 12 with Boon Duration buffs).

Either way, like Sporadicus, I’ve made my point. I’ll give you the final word here.

Sorry, not to bother you or something but, I never said you only get 1 stack of Might every ten seconds, I said you only get one stack of might every 10 ticks which happens in 2 seconds (I used chronometer and its 2 secs since the first hit to the 10th last hit, not 2.25 as wiki says)

This is what I said:

Naioby.3705:

… in conclusion you can ONLY receive one stack of might per 10 ticks of 1 Flame Jet shot

you can get up to 2, actually, if you are lucky enough to get a crit on the first pulse and on the last, each proccing the sigil. I HAVE DONE IT.

did you remember to account for animation times in your chronometer test? or did you just stopwatch from tick 1 to tick 10?

Sporadicus.1028:

I for one would choose Sigil of Battle over Sigil of Strength. Here’s my reasoning:

Flame Jet may be a continuous string of 10 hits over 2.25 seconds, but it’s a #1 auto-attack.

As I mentioned before, I tested with a chronometer, its actually 2 secs from the first hit of your 1rst tick to the 10th. The animation of holding down your FT then firing it again (without Quickness), results on 0.5 seconds maybe a little less or a little more (also did this with chronometer). I just wanted to add this information since I took my time to test this.

Sporadicus.1028:

Auto-attacks are never meant to be spammed until someone dies. You have to intersperse other attacks between these auto attacks. These attacks can delay your auto-attack spam by anywhere from 1 second to 2 seconds.

FJ’s Strength building concept only works if you sit there and don’t do anything else but Auto-Attack.

Very good point, thanks a bunch, you just resumed most of what I have been trying to say, as a skilled engineer you should be able to not only use ur FT but also switch to your gun’s skills or rifle skills or even switch to a EG, nades or tool kit. If you Spam #1 then you are playing counter strike, not GW2.

Sporadicus.1028:

Edit: However . .
With Juggernaut added in, you get another 6-7 stacks of might with about a 1 second overlapping interval. Most people who choose Sigil of Strength will also choose Juggernaut as it helps them get higher stacks.

If you choose Juggernaut and swap out constantly, you maintain probably closer to the 4-5 range (overlapping interval of about 2 seconds). I’m betting it’s closer to 3-4 stacks from Juggernaut, though.

With this added to my Strength vs Battle comparison, this buffs Strength-users to possibly 11-13 stacks in a 1-2 second overlap interval. Battle users get between 9 – 13 stacks with a 6 second overlap interval.

I mentioned about 12 hours ago giving results of my test with pair of these runes : Hoelbrak+Fire+Strength
They would provide +60% Might duration, and you have +30 alchemy, and Juggernaut. The final results still showed that Sigil of Battle would stack even more, and it’s a simple math because, “the bigger the number, the more X you get from a percentage”

(10 secs duration of might from Sigil of Strength * 20 percent extra might duration from just one pair of runes) / 100 percent
EQUALS TO = extra 2 seconds + 10 seconds = 12 seconds total

(20 secs duration of might from Sigil of Battle * 20 percent extra might duration from just one pair of runes) / 100 percent
EQUALS TO = extra 4 seconds + 20 seconds = 24 seconds

With all 60% and specs from traits and stuff, I get 37 secs for 3 stacks Might with Sigil of Battle and "almost"18 secs of just 1 stack Might. I also did the test hitting multiple golems to get multiple crits and have more chance to activate Sigil of Strength to really put it into test, and I showed the following:

Naioby.3705:

…with Sigil of Strength you ONLY get like 19 Stacks of Might if you hit like crazy for 20 minutes consecutively to a GROUP of golems, usually you would only have like 15 or 16 stacks (JUST sigil of strength,+all 60% runes and alchemy, juggernaut, etc, NO extra buff, elixirs, etc), while I can easily get in just a couple of seconds get 22 stacks and they will stay there, and this is just having my sigil of battle…

Also to remark, during this test I had for a quarter of a second 20 stacks with sigil of strength, but to be honest that wouldn’t count much on a fight since you usually have about 15 stacks of Might vs Sigil of Battle that would constantly have 22 stacks of Might without even using any elixirs, or any sort of buffs.
If you love FT as I do, I would totally invite you to please read my posts hehehe, I already gave numbers and tests so now you can be 100% sure that Sigil of Battle is the choice for a FT if you are a skilled engineer and you want to stack real fast and keep the stacks there for longer.
While I was testing for many hours these two sigils a wise man came to me (in-game, close to the golems) and he said:
“Sigil of Strength is not bad, but it’s not the best choice for a FT user. Sigil of strength is meant for people that wants to spam a skill and get stacks without swapping, or for those who won’t even swap anything at all. Sigil of Battle would be the best option for a skilled FT user”
Thanks for your comment, and I invite you to read my tests that I stated above

nakoda.4213:

Naioby.3705:

Phineas Poe.3018:

Never once in this thread did I ever say that Sigil of Strength is a better choice than Sigil of Battle. My only contention was you trying to say that Strength only gives one stack of Might every ten seconds when it actually gives 5 (or 6 over 12 with Boon Duration buffs).

Either way, like Sporadicus, I’ve made my point. I’ll give you the final word here.

Sorry, not to bother you or something but, I never said you only get 1 stack of Might every ten seconds, I said you only get one stack of might every 10 ticks which happens in 2 seconds (I used chronometer and its 2 secs since the first hit to the 10th last hit, not 2.25 as wiki says)

This is what I said:

Naioby.3705:

… in conclusion you can ONLY receive one stack of might per 10 ticks of 1 Flame Jet shot

you can get up to 2, actually, if you are lucky enough to get a crit on the first pulse and on the last, each proccing the sigil. I HAVE DONE IT.

did you remember to account for animation times in your chronometer test? or did you just stopwatch from tick 1 to tick 10?

Nakoda, what you state is really interesting. Are you really sure you got 2 stacks? that’s like almost impossible you know that, specially since I know I used my chronometer many times and it is 2 secs or maybe even less, from tick #1 to tick #10. Please can you check that? (I’m working on a paper translating something for a client hahaha)

I’m really interested in what you’ve said because it would mean that the animation is not going together with the real hit dmg. For this I would love to retry a chronometer to check the animation and see how long it takes since u get to see the channeling bar till the end, I think I did this and I saw 2 secs, but since this was almost 2 days ago, I don’t remember if I did that. But anyways this is just something I would really like to know, it’s interesting. As for Strength vs Battle, the sigil of Battle still wins because I did an extensive test of dmg in a short time and dmg in 20 mins, as well as Might stacking. You won’t get as much stacks as a Sigil of Battle, specially if we are talking about 30 secs, as I tested and mentioned before:

Naioby.3705:

VERY IMPORTANT & TODAY’s TEST: To get a miracle of 10 stacks of Might with Sigil of Strength I had to spend 2 minutes constantly hitting a GROUP of golems to get many crits to get one to proc Sigil of Strength and after 20 minutes that’s all I could get, and it wouldn’t even last for long. While with Sigil of Battle after 30 seconds, without even hitting something just remaining in combat, I had 12 stacks and I was able to keep it 12 stacks for 20 minutes CONSTANTLY by just swapping and getting 3 stacks of might with 37 secs duration each.

This one of course didn’t include juggernaut just to get the plain numbers, but it did include all the +60% might duration + trait specs and all stuff. And the interesting thing is, with Sigil of Battle I wasn’t even hitting a thing, I would just swap and get 3 stacks for 37 secs, then wait and stack again, and again. With Sigil of Strength I really had to do things out of the normal gameplay, which is to hit a group of static non-agro Heavy Golems, and you would never have this chance on PvE. You wont land many of your hits and if it’s a 1v1, for sure you wont get that many stacks, probably just 2 or max 5 stacks before a single Heavy Golem goes down. And if we say, a dungeon Boss and you are hitting like crazy 1v1, let’s say the path 1, CoF, then for sure you wont get your 10 stacks (not counting juggernaut), while I will for sure get my 12 extra stacks and keep it that high constantly (not counting juggernaut).

I’m interested in your point about the duration of the Flame Jet.

Sporadicus.1028:

I know, but sometimes people need pen laid to paper instead of just folks arguing “Strength is better!” and “Battle is better!”

The posters before me have laid their reasons out, and I’ve laid mine. Hopefully this makes readers decide which way they want to play.

Sorry, didn’t mean to come off as attacking you. Meant to just try and discard these pages of arbitrary numbers in the fact that, at base value, 6 > 5. More duration? Well they’ll both scale the same, so it’ll still maintain the fact that battle > strength. There’s no point bringing up flamethrower or potatoes or William Shatner’s birthday, none of it is going to change the fact that, 6 > 5. I could bring up the fact it’s a 9 second internal cooldown and not 10, so technically for a brief moment (in optimal situation) that it’d be 9 stacks of might, but I’m probably not hitting that icd every possible chance, just like sigil of strength likely isn’t hitting it every possible chance (although it likely only suffers 1/5th of a second of wasted time – but that’s still wasted time).

So, just to make it easy, Naioby seems like a hard heady donkey who would rather be right than support others playing the profession. Now, I don’t have the ability to record and frame by frame it, but it seems like the 2.25 should be your full attack plus delay between the next. Now, as for which is better for might stacking, who really cares? If you are hitting 1 target with strength, you’ll get 3-5 stacks. Wonderful. If you feel like bunny hopping between kits because that’s your playstyle and you can get 6 stacks with battle, wonderful. Pointless attacking each other because you can’t concede that one might be viable for the other person is not as wonderful.

We’re all here because we enjoy our engineers, why not ask how they play rather then throwing walls of text? You might find something interesting.

(Also, some of your math is a bit off, but it’s not a big deal. Just assuming you have +60% duration and full alchemy, it’s 19 seconds on strength, 38 on battle. Oh, and adding trollface generally shows you’re using troll logic, such as using two magnets to fly. Not conducive to a well written math based argument.)

Now, hopefully we can see some constructive conversation come out of this, rather than x is better than y because z for me so you’re wrong. Personally, I’m curious what kind of build you run, if you have multiple kits and flamethrower. I normally go elixir/ft so I don’t have to switch, as spamming 1 does in fact work well in farming pent/shelt for hours on end, at least for me. (I feel bad for anyone who tries to use grenades there for long periods. That seems like a bad time.)

My god… Ok so battle works better if your pure goal is might stacking…moving on.

The problem isnt the flamethrower entirely. Its this games camera and LoS issues that are incureably bad. they’re fixing things to make your stuff more than often hit where your facing, but its always gonna be a pain in the kittenomeone earlier pointed out.

Moving onto other issues (cough). I had some ideas for improvement.

Flame Jet . should do increase damage at 100 yard range, where the weapon should excel in spvp it drops the ball. This would help you come closer in damage to people in your face. (which if you have the FT out in spvp, you should want this)

Fire Blast should be either a projectile finisher or (ironicly) a BLAST finisher? ..or both? Giving it more synergy with napalm.

Air blast i’d prefer was more of a knockdown than a knockback. Seeing as you usually dont want people away from you but still want to be able to cc them in some way (not needed more of a qol change..this would also make it better in pve)

Napalm needs a faster casting time. Simply this…its so slow and sluggish it makes it very frusterating to use. Upping the cast time would not suddenly make this ability or kit OP…not even close no reason this has not been done yet.

This would be good. I would attack the depressingly boring 5th ability smoke vent. But because i use it so often when downing someone right before they use their 2 skill to make them miss while not breaking my down animation…..i suddenly like it a lot and even pull out my FT to down certain enemies with a wind up 2nd downed ability.

Honestly FT is one of THE best condition spreading weapons if all you care about is raw damage due to tons of access to burning and fast attacks on flame jet = more oppurtunities for bleed procs/fireprocs etc. I can still fit sigil battle on my offhand if i want, and swap out of it occasionally to unload some pistol conditions (or if they root me and get out of my FT range).

So i think FT is good, it has a purpose in condition/crit/power builds (importance in that order) and ofc is amazing for might stacks.

Zinwrath.2049:

So i think FT is good, it has a purpose in condition/crit/power builds (importance in that order) and ofc is amazing for might stacks.

Do you really think the damage difference in Bleed stacks outweighs the damage loss in less Power and Critical Damage? My problem with this is that Bleed stacking really only gets huge unless you actually slot runes for it, meaning you’re giving up A LOT of damage by dropping 6/6 Altruism which gives you sustained Fury + Drop Stimulant.