Guild Wars 2

Creld.8702:

Also, some of your math is a bit off, but it’s not a big deal. Just assuming you have +60% duration and full alchemy, it’s 19 seconds on strength, 38 on battle.

My Math is not off. This is the calculus that I posted:

Naioby.3705:

(10 secs duration of might from Sigil of Strength * 20 percent extra might duration from just one pair of runes) / 100 percent
EQUALS TO = extra 2 seconds + 10 seconds = 12 seconds total
(20 secs duration of might from Sigil of Battle * 20 percent extra might duration from just one pair of runes) / 100 percent
EQUALS TO = extra 4 seconds + 20 seconds = 24 seconds

Then you will wanna start being a smarty pants and say:
“You said 18 secs from S of Strength and 37 secs from Sigil of Battle that’s off because
((20 base secs*(%30 Alche + %60 Runes)) / 100 ) = 18 extra seconds + 20 base secs = 38”
Yeah, I have enough IQ to do that and even more than that, but I never said that a specific calculus gave me 37 nor 18… I said that the longest duration time you can get is 18 for Strength and 37 from Battle. I have one question for you, did you at least go to sPvP with all 3 pair of runes %60 Might dur + %30 alche and check how many secs of Might you get? the answer is NO, you are just like any other troll that wants to target the nerdy hahaha. Dude Math is Math, but we ALL know that ANET always have some crazy odd mad inside the programming lines of the game, we even have runes that said +50 attribute X, but in fact it would only give +40, so go do your homework and get into sPvP and try it by yourself, don’t be a lazy kitten ::laugh:: Meowwww

P.D.: You are free to start trolling and quote me every single spot where I said 37 secs, and I will still prove that I didn’t say I got that value from a calculus, I clearly said this is what the GAME gave me when I swapped, same goes with the 18 secs from Sigil of Strength… and for the record, no matter if you get 19 secs you still won’t get as many stacks as Sigil of Battle, and you won’t even get stacks as fast as Sigil of Battle. PERIOD, no more trolls please, stop wasting my energy XD. I really wanna stop answering to posts but if I don’t answer, trolls will think they won.

Creld.8702:

Oh, and adding trollface generally shows you’re using troll logic, such as using two magnets to fly. Not conducive to a well written math based argument.)

I uploaded a troll face bcuz I was being trolled, called inexperienced and saying things that weren’t accurate when I was, if you check one of the posts before yours you can even see him saying that I mentioned 10 seconds when I said 10 ticks INSTEAD. So I really don’t like trolls that wanna quote things that I didn’t say and even change my words because they want to feel better with themselves. And what do you care if I use a troll face to dedicate it to someone? that was for him not for you. Do you also wanna start trolling? you will feel familiar with this attachment dedicated to you hahaha

I agree that FT should actually be defined as either a Power-based weapon or a Condition-based weapon.

Too many of our weapons are mixed and hodge-podged.

I think it would be wise if we make FT a purely condition-based weapon. Lower the damage from the flames to a miniscule amount and deal a good bit of burning: at least one second for every second it’s flaming, anyway.

many of our builds are a mixture, however, and i believe this is the premise of the engineer.

here is a spec (traited for FT, but the gear and whatnot is what I am pointing to) that maximizes both comd dmg and power, while sitting near that 50% crit mark.

http://gw2buildcraft.com/calculator/engineer/?2.1|a.1o.h1h.a.1o.h1b|0.0.0.0.0.0|1o.71j.1o.71j.1o.71j.1o.71j.1o.71j.1o.71j|4v.d18.3v.d18.2v.d18.3v.0.2v.d18.2v.d12|a5.u58b.0.k67.a2|2s.7|2d.2w.2h.2r.0|e

i’ve read somewhere that 50% crit is a sweet spot, in regards to then building other stats, so it has made me rethink my 83% crit w/ fury build.

anyway;

POW 1804 (w/ 875 from might, assuming 25 stacks) ~ 2679
PRE ~ 1993
TOUGH 1746 (w/ 200 jugg) ~ 1946
COND 837 (w/ 875 from might, assuming 25 stacks) ~ 1712
CRIT 55% (w/ 20% from fury) ~ 75%
CRIT Dmg ~ 66%

over 3500 attack power and 35% dmg reduction, … WITH over 1700 cond dmg and perma fury resulting in 75% crit rate.

for an FT user, this is .. awesome.

I like that build. Mine is more condition-based, with a 42% crit chance and 1250 conditions. I flip between FT, EG, and pistols to apply as many different conditions as possible, then switch back to FT to build up might stacks when my CDs are up on the others.

If I need no big CCs or don’t feel like turrets, I use Elixir U to put on hard amounts of bleed on an enemy, then follow up with Poison and finally Might myself up with FT.

nakoda.4213:

many of our builds are a mixture, however, and i believe this is the premise of the engineer.

here is a spec (traited for FT, but the gear and whatnot is what I am pointing to) that maximizes both comd dmg and power, while sitting near that 50% crit mark.

http://gw2buildcraft.com/calculator/engineer/?2.1|a.1o.h1h.a.1o.h1b|0.0.0.0.0.0|1o.71j.1o.71j.1o.71j.1o.71j.1o.71j.1o.71j|4v.d18.3v.d18.2v.d18.3v.0.2v.d18.2v.d12|a5.u58b.0.k67.a2|2s.7|2d.2w.2h.2r.0|e

i’ve read somewhere that 50% crit is a sweet spot, in regards to then building other stats, so it has made me rethink my 83% crit w/ fury build.

anyway;

POW 1804 (w/ 875 from might, assuming 25 stacks) ~ 2679
PRE ~ 1993
TOUGH 1746 (w/ 200 jugg) ~ 1946
COND 837 (w/ 875 from might, assuming 25 stacks) ~ 1712
CRIT 55% (w/ 20% from fury) ~ 75%
CRIT Dmg ~ 66%

over 3500 attack power and 35% dmg reduction, … WITH over 1700 cond dmg and perma fury resulting in 75% crit rate.

for an FT user, this is .. awesome.

Can you use Battle and Strength together? If so, that settles the whole issue of which to choose entirely.

awesome, with the EG I would want more con dmg too, i tend to stay in ft to swap in other abilities like net shot as needed, jump shot to gain ground. with all the cc I’ve got, im often in the sweet spot for for constant burn and bleed application.

I get super giddy when warriors actually try to run away.

video game or not, people fear fire. it is hard wired into our genetic code. fire bad!

re: sigils, afaik on crit and on swap are separate timers.

You can’t use battle and strength together because they are both CD-based sigils. When one activates, it resets the GCD for the other.

there you have it. I just threw them in there since sigils ate really selective and personal anyway. until I read this 50% crit business, I always ran accuracy & strength.

ill have to find the info.

The other thing I had to ask:

nakoda.4213:

i’ve read somewhere that 50% crit is a sweet spot, in regards to then building other stats, so it has made me rethink my 83% crit w/ fury build.

I definitely agree that ~50% is about where you get diminishing returns giving what you have to give up to get higher than that.

I run with a base 53% critical hit chance with Rampager pistols, Zerker armor, a Celestial Ascended amulet, and Ruby jewelry. With Fury that’s 73%. I definitely benefit a lot from that, especially since I’m stacking a lot of critical damage in my gear.

My question is: Are you actually “getting back” that damage in Condition Damage by re-gearing with Divinity runes, dropping Altruism? Precision is Precision, and Bleed stacking is just as effective with a Power/Precision build as it would be with Divinity runes since there’s no +Bleed duration in your setup. So is the offset of like 40 damage per Bleed running Zerker over Rampagers really worth the loss in critical damage, especially with perma 73% critical chance?

If you could run some numbers I might be more open to this, but I don’t have a Rampager set on hand—and I don’t trust Mist Golem numbers at all.

Well going off golem numbers, condition more than makes up for the power/crit damage loss. This obviously is going to be more obvious on the heavy armor golems (or players)

The great thing about it, is your not about stacking but reapplying short heavy damage dots. Thus condition wipe has no effect on you, and you get a lot of damage than ignores toughness/armor.

Now, my opinions are going to be more leaned towards how things perform in SPVP vs pve. but if you are building heavy damage/crit in a pve scenerio where flamethrower would be good for its cone damage. I would simply say "wth arent you just using grenades that do MORE damage offer MORE disabling conditions like (25 vuln stack, wider blind, chill, and poison combo field) that doesnt require you to stand so close to the fight.

In spvp i would say (wtf are you auto attacking with that) because rifle does about the same auto attack damage at longer range but.

Isnt a channel
Doesnt get countered hard by retaliation.
Less likely to miss, or have the player run out of the auto attack.
Is a 20% projectile finisher.

Not to mention the rifle has 4 out of 5 Power attacks vs flame throwers 2. Overcharge offers a knockback that hits hard from power and can crit (unlike airblast which stacks a condition) and the two others do MORE damage than anything the flame thrower can do (also jump shot is a leap finisher) and it has quick access immobalize on a short cd to keep people in your damage.
Also rifle doesnt require me to give up a utility slot.

So its like…if i was a power build, why would i ever bring out the flame thrower? Only reason i can think is for air blast …but i could have remote mine slotted there that is more effective at knockback as it gets power damage, boon shred, unblockable.

So now that i kinda explain why i never would use FT in a power build.
Lets look again at why its amazing in a condition build.

Fast attacks on flame jet = more bleeds AND Incend Ammo procs…because more oppurtunities to proc (yes i know they are on cd’s)
flame jet, Air blast, Napalm, and the Toolbelt skill all apply short strong applications of burning.
Napalm can be used so your pistol procs burning on auto attacks.

But yes, the weapon benefits from power and crit damage, it just doesnt benefit as much as it does from condition heavily put into the mix. (conditions are not effected by toughness, reliable damage no matter what the target is)

Keep in mind the necromancers choice condition weapon is the scepter, but if you were to look at the scepters damage….it actually does pretty reasonable power damage. Almost as much (maybe more) than the axe does if you were to build it power. Infact the 3rd skill is a big direct damage attack that offers no conditions. Yet its their condition damage weapon.

So i wouldnt get side tracked just because it has 2 abilities that benefit from power…and only one that purely benefits from power. It has far more benefits from condition damage.

Zinwrath.2049:

Well going off golem numbers, condition more than makes up for the power/crit damage loss.

I’m not entirely convinced.

With a 10/30/0/20/10 setup with Juggernaut active (6-stack):

Zerker trinket Burn was 470 damage, Bleed was 71 damage.
Rampager trinket Burn was 630 damage, Bleed was 103 damage.

That’s 160 dmg difference in Burn and a 32 dmg difference in Bleed.

That seems like a lot until you recognize that even with a 10-stack that’s only a 320 damage difference—which is probably about as high as you’re going to get with Sharpshooter alone without +Bleed duration rune/sigil. It usually averaged more around 6-7 stacks.

That’s all well and good but the crit damage potential for Zerker gear is pretty far above that, even on the Heavy Mist Golem. Rampager never reached over 1700 direct damage, averaging 1300-1500 usually.

Zerker instead consistently climbed over 2000 damage, many times 2500. So if we’re looking at it DPS-wise, even a conservative estimate of ~800 damage difference over 2.5 seconds is … about 320 damage gained per second.

These are ballpark estimations obviously, and meant to be taken with a grain of salt, but I think the point is clear. As far as I can tell, going Zerker vs Rampager gets you the same exact result. There is no clear winner.

The only things that could really sway things one direction over another is that (1) Zerker gear in PvE has a ton more critical damage than the sPvP trinket and (2) the power of Rampager really depends on how high you can get your Bleed stack without totally trashing your direct damage.

This is why I want specific numbers, in PvE, of players using Rampager insignia gear. Mist Golems just aren’t numbers to be trusted given the stat values with sPvP trinkets are not 1:1 to what you get access to in PvE.

I think another big question lies in whether or not Condition Damage or Power best benefits from each stack of Might. They both gain 35 points per stack, but based on Power coefficients with Flame Jet and Flame Blast that may complicate matters.

A small hijack to this thread but holy crap, the issue of our cone attacks missing is beyond frustrating. Take P/P for example, that number 4 blowtorch skill misses for absolutely no reason; even if both parties are standing still. If it does manage to hit, it might miss twice (since it’s a three hit skill) and then you’ll lose a lot of DPS. However unlike the flamethrower’s auto-attack, you’ll have to wait 15/12 seconds only to miss again.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Zinwrath.2049:

Well going off golem numbers, condition more than makes up for the power/crit damage loss.

I’m not entirely convinced.

With a 10/30/0/20/10 setup with Juggernaut active (6-stack):

Zerker trinket Burn was 470 damage, Bleed was 71 damage.
Rampager trinket Burn was 630 damage, Bleed was 103 damage.

That’s 160 dmg difference in Burn and a 32 dmg difference in Bleed.

That seems like a lot until you recognize that even with a 10-stack that’s only a 320 damage difference—which is probably about as high as you’re going to get with Sharpshooter alone without +Bleed duration rune/sigil. It usually averaged more around 6-7 stacks.

That’s all well and good but the crit damage potential for Zerker gear is pretty far above that, even on the Heavy Mist Golem. Rampager never reached over 1700 direct damage, averaging 1300-1500 usually.

Zerker instead consistently climbed over 2000 damage, many times 2500. So if we’re looking at it DPS-wise, even a conservative estimate of ~800 damage difference over 2.5 seconds is … about 320 damage gained per second.

These are ballpark estimations obviously, and meant to be taken with a grain of salt, but I think the point is clear. As far as I can tell, going Zerker vs Rampager gets you the same exact result. There is no clear winner.

The only things that could really sway things one direction over another is that (1) Zerker gear in PvE has a ton more critical damage than the sPvP trinket and (2) the power of Rampager really depends on how high you can get your Bleed stack without totally trashing your direct damage.

This is why I want specific numbers, in PvE, of players using Rampager insignia gear. Mist Golems just aren’t numbers to be trusted given the stat values with sPvP trinkets are not 1:1 to what you get access to in PvE.

I think another big question lies in whether or not Condition Damage or Power best benefits from each stack of Might. They both gain 35 points per stack, but based on Power coefficients with Flame Jet and Flame Blast that may complicate matters.

But like i said through out my post. You cant over focus on flamejet/flame blast’s direct damage potential. The toolbelt, flamejet, airblast, napalm are all burning condition spreaders. And burning benefits from condition damage more than ANY other condition.

Bleeding

Intensity

0.05 * Condition Damage + 0.5 * Level + 2.5

per second

Burning

Duration

0.25 * Condition Damage + 4.0 * Level + 8

per second

Poison

Duration

0.10 * Condition Damage + 1.0 * Level + 4

per second

Confusion

Intensity

0.15 * Condition Damage + 1.5 * Level + 10

per skill use

So, +condition damage is going to effect the flamethrower’s damage heavily.

Anyway, if your entirely focused on just seeing flamejet tally up to a big number, and seeing the biggest possible number on flame blast….well then sure. But if your trying to maximise the damage potential of the entire kit (and like i mentioned other kit/weapons fullfill AE direct damage or single target direct damage far superior than that of the FT) your best bet is to stack on some condition damage and use this between pistol attack rotations.

Zinebot.4250:

A small hijack to this thread but holy crap, the issue of our cone attacks missing is beyond frustrating. Take P/P for example, that number 4 blowtorch skill misses for absolutely no reason; even if both parties are standing still. If it does manage to hit, it might miss twice (since it’s a three hit skill) and then you’ll lose a lot of DPS. However unlike the flamethrower’s auto-attack, you’ll have to wait 15/12 seconds only to miss again.

Yea, it sucks. i try not to use either too much on spirit watch.

I also want to make sure that what I am saying does not get misrepresented.

The Flamethrower is not a burst dps weapon, it does not kill fast. I NEED all that CC to keep the foe near me and controlled while near me. I need to WORK to kill people. I need to do all those things that others complain about.

Phineus’s spec is far more versatile than mine. But I like chasing people and making them hate me. I like making them HAVE to deal with me only to find out I am not some easy kill. Rather than see a health bar drop dramatically, it is more like watching a receding channel bar, counting down how long I have to survive. I pick and choose my targets. But I consider all of that as part of playing intelligently.

I can’t just roam around and collect points because I am not built for that. What I am build for is disruption and aoe mayhem. I pick off people at the edges of zergs and when they head in to the group for safety, I strafe along hitting them and everyone they hide behind, setting them ablaze. If an entire team has to turn and focus on me to stop me from killing them kindly, then the rest of my krewe is free to wreak havoc. I will survive.

It is just part of coordinated team play. none of this 1v1 nonesense.

1700 cond dmg ~~ 750 burn/tick

nakoda.4213:

I also want to make sure that what I am saying does not get misrepresented.

The Flamethrower is not a burst dps weapon, it does not kill fast. I NEED all that CC to keep the foe near me and controlled while near me. I need to WORK to kill people. I need to do all those things that others complain about.

Phineus’s spec is far more versatile than mine. But I like chasing people and making them hate me. I like making them HAVE to deal with me only to find out I am not some easy kill. Rather than see a health bar drop dramatically, it is more like watching a receding channel bar, counting down how long I have to survive. I pick and choose my targets. But I consider all of that as part of playing intelligently.

I can’t just roam around and collect points because I am not built for that. What I am build for is disruption and aoe mayhem. I pick off people at the edges of zergs and when they head in to the group for safety, I strafe along hitting them and everyone they hide behind, setting them ablaze. If an entire team has to turn and focus on me to stop me from killing them kindly, then the rest of my krewe is free to wreak havoc. I will survive.

It is just part of coordinated team play. none of this 1v1 nonesense.

sounds like a great concept but 2 problems with that

1. you need to be facing the target the entire time to make damage.
2. enemy will just turn around and own you x10 faster, and then move along!

To fix FT:

• #5 a 3s smoke field
• #2 a blast finisher

and perfect! ;D

it drives me insane how i explain to you HOW i use the FT and HOW it works for me and HOW i find success with it, but every time I do so, you tell me I am wrong because of something the other player will do.

NO KITTEN, MITTENS. Eff Eff Ess, the whole point of PvP is to be able to read the opponents and play BETTER than they do.

Thanks for pointing out I need to be facing my opponents, I didn’t know that!
Guess what!? The BEST part about the FT is that you DO NOT HAVE TO BE RIGHT BESIDE YOUR OPPONENT so you can stay OUT of melee range WITHOUT a loss to your OWN dmg output.

CC, knockbacks, blowbacks, the kit is for CONTROLLING … GROUPS … of MULTIPLE … foes not just hammering away one at a time. The fact that chasing people afraid of fire around is fun was just an anecdote I was relating.

The FT spec ALLOWS you to take a few hits without dying BECAUSE you are precariously close to melee range. It is OWED to the fact that you need to be able to absorb a few strikes.

BUT THAT IS THE POINT!

Kitten man! you look like trash!
Ya but you should see the other guy!

I burnt him to a mother kitten crisp laughing at him the whole time.

Not my problem if you don’t LIKE the way the kit plays. Stop harping on it because you can’t cut the mustard. And stop preaching as though the kit is broken. IT IS NOT BROKEN. It is one thing to criticize the kit for low dmg output and to discuss strategies for the kits uses, but it chaps my kitten when I get blamed for spreading misinformation for making a mistake when this whole infernal debate is based upon the misinformation that the FT is a broken kit. It isn’t.

The changes you suggest (smoke field and blast finisher) would be BUFFS and NOT fixes.

nakoda.4213:

it drives me insane how i explain to you HOW i use the FT and HOW it works for me and HOW i find success with it, but every time I do so, you tell me I am wrong because of something the other player will do.

NO KITTEN, MITTENS. Eff Eff Ess, the whole point of PvP is to be able to read the opponents and play BETTER than they do.

Thanks for pointing out I need to be facing my opponents, I didn’t know that!
Guess what!? The BEST part about the FT is that you DO NOT HAVE TO BE RIGHT BESIDE YOUR OPPONENT so you can stay OUT of melee range WITHOUT a loss to your OWN dmg output.

CC, knockbacks, blowbacks, the kit is for CONTROLLING … GROUPS … of MULTIPLE … foes not just hammering away one at a time. The fact that chasing people afraid of fire around is fun was just an anecdote I was relating.

The FT spec ALLOWS you to take a few hits without dying BECAUSE you are precariously close to melee range. It is OWED to the fact that you need to be able to absorb a few strikes.

BUT THAT IS THE POINT!

Kitten man! you look like trash!
Ya but you should see the other guy!

I burnt him to a mother kitten crisp laughing at him the whole time.

Not my problem if you don’t LIKE the way the kit plays. Stop harping on it because you can’t cut the mustard. And stop preaching as though the kit is broken. IT IS NOT BROKEN. It is one thing to criticize the kit for low dmg output and to discuss strategies for the kits uses, but it chaps my kitten when I get blamed for spreading misinformation for making a mistake when this whole infernal debate is based upon the misinformation that the FT is a broken kit. It isn’t.

The changes you suggest (smoke field and blast finisher) would be BUFFS and NOT fixes.

This is an unnecessary wall of rage. You took offence to something he said and the result is a lot of talk with no meat to back any of your statements. Mod should delete this. “CC, knockbacks, blowbacks” it only does one of these..your exagerating. The kit is designed around AE close range damage, it is much weaker than many other sources to do it, which is why they buffed it HEAVILY last patch, developers are aware it never was fullfilling its designed role. Some argue it still was not enough, and most people who advocate that its balanced now, were claiming it was balanced before the gross amount of buffs it just received….so i and many others dismiss their opinions.

anyway, if you read something that makes you mad. Take 10 minutes to cool off before responding to it, else you will just write up a long angry mess where you end up just making yourself look stupid and hysterical.

google.3709:

nakoda.4213:

I also want to make sure that what I am saying does not get misrepresented.

The Flamethrower is not a burst dps weapon, it does not kill fast. I NEED all that CC to keep the foe near me and controlled while near me. I need to WORK to kill people. I need to do all those things that others complain about.

Phineus’s spec is far more versatile than mine. But I like chasing people and making them hate me. I like making them HAVE to deal with me only to find out I am not some easy kill. Rather than see a health bar drop dramatically, it is more like watching a receding channel bar, counting down how long I have to survive. I pick and choose my targets. But I consider all of that as part of playing intelligently.

I can’t just roam around and collect points because I am not built for that. What I am build for is disruption and aoe mayhem. I pick off people at the edges of zergs and when they head in to the group for safety, I strafe along hitting them and everyone they hide behind, setting them ablaze. If an entire team has to turn and focus on me to stop me from killing them kindly, then the rest of my krewe is free to wreak havoc. I will survive.

It is just part of coordinated team play. none of this 1v1 nonesense.

sounds like a great concept but 2 problems with that

1. you need to be facing the target the entire time to make damage.
2. enemy will just turn around and own you x10 faster, and then move along!

To fix FT:

• #5 a 3s smoke field
• #2 a blast finisher

and perfect! ;D

The things you suggested do not solve the problems you claim it has. Nakoda is correct that it is not a burst damage weapon. Should it be, i dont know. However Nakoda found a play style that makes him happy, he most likely builds a little bit higher vit/toughness and plays more of a tanky attrition fight. Will he win vs other builds that are made for attrition? maybe not, maybe so. But his point is valid.

Also, i agree with the blast finisher, the smoke field would have to be 1 second and is redundant with the smoke bomb, I would say keep it as is and use my suggestion of giving flamejet INCREASED damage at 100 yrds (like blunderbuss) that way when people get in your face, you can throw their burst right back at them without disrupting the play style of the weapon which is as nakoda says “wreaking havoc”

@Zinwrath.2049

hehe the 2 list are completely unrelated, 1 was a reply to Nakoda and the other a reply for the thread and you’re right, as long as he’s happy with this playstyle is all that matters

but my 2 points refer to; FT burning doesn’t last for long, so if you stop facing the enemy for 1 second, DPS is down to 0, so you have to constantly face him directly which leaves you vulnerable since now you can’t dodge or kite properly. Other classes have this problem too, but with the advantage that they are able to land big hits, which FT cannot.

Also, if enemy stops being scared from the animation for just 1 second and realizes how much damage you’re really making, they can just turn around and kill you

Anet will never buff skill #1 again, but hopefully they buff the others, with a smoke field, a reflect/push and a blast finisher! i would defiantly use the FT myself and im sure many others would too

Zinwrath.2049:

nakoda.4213:

it drives me insane how i explain to you HOW i use the FT and HOW it works for me and HOW i find success with it, but every time I do so, you tell me I am wrong because of something the other player will do.

NO KITTEN, MITTENS. Eff Eff Ess, the whole point of PvP is to be able to read the opponents and play BETTER than they do.

Thanks for pointing out I need to be facing my opponents, I didn’t know that!
Guess what!? The BEST part about the FT is that you DO NOT HAVE TO BE RIGHT BESIDE YOUR OPPONENT so you can stay OUT of melee range WITHOUT a loss to your OWN dmg output.

CC, knockbacks, blowbacks, the kit is for CONTROLLING … GROUPS … of MULTIPLE … foes not just hammering away one at a time. The fact that chasing people afraid of fire around is fun was just an anecdote I was relating.

The FT spec ALLOWS you to take a few hits without dying BECAUSE you are precariously close to melee range. It is OWED to the fact that you need to be able to absorb a few strikes.

BUT THAT IS THE POINT!

Kitten man! you look like trash!
Ya but you should see the other guy!

I burnt him to a mother kitten crisp laughing at him the whole time.

Not my problem if you don’t LIKE the way the kit plays. Stop harping on it because you can’t cut the mustard. And stop preaching as though the kit is broken. IT IS NOT BROKEN. It is one thing to criticize the kit for low dmg output and to discuss strategies for the kits uses, but it chaps my kitten when I get blamed for spreading misinformation for making a mistake when this whole infernal debate is based upon the misinformation that the FT is a broken kit. It isn’t.

The changes you suggest (smoke field and blast finisher) would be BUFFS and NOT fixes.

This is an unnecessary wall of rage. You took offence to something he said and the result is a lot of talk with no meat to back any of your statements. Mod should delete this. “CC, knockbacks, blowbacks” it only does one of these..your exagerating. The kit is designed around AE close range damage, it is much weaker than many other sources to do it, which is why they buffed it HEAVILY last patch, developers are aware it never was fullfilling its designed role. Some argue it still was not enough, and most people who advocate that its balanced now, were claiming it was balanced before the gross amount of buffs it just received….so i and many others dismiss their opinions.

anyway, if you read something that makes you mad. Take 10 minutes to cool off before responding to it, else you will just write up a long angry mess where you end up just making yourself look stupid and hysterical.

angry? check.
fed up? check.
hysterical? negative, houston.

what I wrote was lucid, direct, and honest. but the real meat behind it is all the back and forth that goes on in this supposed race to find the best engie spec. like every profession, the engie has no best spec. while every spec has things that need tweaking, none of them are intrinsically broken.

and yet, there is constant argument (to which I often fall prey, I am a kettle, not a pot here) about which is better or worse when we should be talking about “what works and what doesn’t” to provide new players with ACTUAL useful information.

it is still not my problem that you can’t hack a flamethrower. but that doesn’t make me want to stop using it, and it doesn’t mean that I need to change. furthermore, some specs (like PPConfusion or PPHgH) are beyond me as a playstyle, I just don’t like em.

Doesn’t mean they suck, it means I suck using them because when I am in combat I don’t think that way. I’ve spent 14 years playing MMO as a main raid tank. GW2 doesn’t have that role, but IMO, the FT is pretty kitten close.

You never heard tanks kittening about low single target dps in other games BECAUSE THEY KNEW THEY COULDN’T AND DIDN’T KITTEN CARE, it isn’t what they were made for.

You remember that racing game with the punk turtle and plumber? the FT is like the punk turtle, slow to start, hard to stop. Nades are like the plumber, steady gains with a few awesome tricks up his sleeve. (Maska is like a mushroom, fast off the line and hard to keep up with :P)

The point is that there is a REASON for different types of strengths and weaknesses in video games, it is to broaden the appeal to a wider audience. Not everyone will like engie at ALL, and within the class people will play differently, and the game is DESIGNED to allow and encourage this diversity.

nakoda.4213:

it drives me insane how i explain to you HOW i use the FT and HOW it works for me and HOW i find success with it, but every time I do so, you tell me I am wrong because of something the other player will do.

Hehehe at last there is someone that felt how I felt… the only difference is that I do as"Zinwrath" said:

Zinwrath.2049:

…anyway, if you read something that makes you mad. Take 10 minutes to cool off before responding to it…

There are many ppl in the forums that they just read the beginning of your post, and they just assume the rest and start replying to what you said on the first line of your post. When I read Nakoda’s post I was so clear to know his play style, I even thought this:
“Nakoda loves to see people suffering, he doesn’t want an insta kill because it wouldn’t be as fun as watching desperate for not being able to kill you asap, and he would keep chasing them and CC them to drive them nuts and then finish them”
Isn’t this how you feel Nakoda? I can understand perfectly because I’m one of those sick engineers that NEVER stick to one build, some days I feel like a psycho and I change my build to something like Nakoda’s to enjoy killing them SLOWLY but PAINFULLY hahaha.

He stated his play style very well, CC then get close, CC again, then use ur flamejet, that’s not easy but it’s not impossible, and as he said “takes time to kill, but I enjoy it” it is his playstyle, and his way of playing, and works for him.

Some other days I would try to keep developing my burst build for FT, and AS Sinwrath and Sporadicus tried to explain is that, if we want to get most of the dmg cond+power altogether you NEED to keep switching between FT and pistols and even another kit of your choice, or use Elixir S to approach + dmg, and use it as an Elixir Stomp, as some of us call it, or even any ideas you get. FT is a good cond applicator, not to mention the Might stacking, you can just have ur FT active walking around to keep the charges up then start fighting with some crazy swappings to get most of the dmg maximized from switching into diff kits or your weapons.

google.3709:

but my 2 points refer to; FT burning doesn’t last for long, so if you stop facing the enemy for 1 second, DPS is down to 0, so you have to constantly face him directly which leaves you vulnerable since now you can’t dodge or kite properly. Other classes have this problem too, but with the advantage that they are able to land big hits, which FT cannot.

Also, if enemy stops being scared from the animation for just 1 second and realizes how much damage you’re really making, they can just turn around and kill you

FT having small duration for burns and probably some other conditions doesn’t make any disadvantage, if you go condition dmg and power + 25 stacks of Might, those little secs of condition hits like 2 or more rifle hits + the base dmg of your Ft which isn’t that much. Many people would only check the Combat chat or the numbers they see from a crit, but they are not taking into account the numbers you get from all conditions + direct hit, remember when I tried with golems, I tested berserker’s and Carrion’s, everyone please take a time to try that yourself, use inendiary ammo + FJ and you will depleet more than 95% of the Heavy golem in just 2 secs, while using berserker’s + incendiary ammo won’t do that much of a Dmg. Probably works differently in PvE but this is something that I am still studying and trying to get as much details as possible. But we know something for sure now, even if FT has some power-based direct dmg, the FT is ideal to spread conditions, you just have to really have in mind two thing:
1. CC + swaps to get best dmg and best use of ur FT for a 1v1
2. Spread and spray + swaps to get the best out of your FT vs more than 1 opponents

nakoda.4213:

… and yet, there is constant argument (to which I often fall prey, I am a kettle, not a pot here) about which is better or worse when we should be talking about “what works and what doesn’t” to provide new players with ACTUAL useful information.

Nakoda’s post was very clear, we here should be concentrating at “what works” and “what doesn’t”
1. Nakoda’s build “works” if you want a slow but painful death for your enemies, specially if you can be kinda tanky
2. Sigil of Battle works better than Sigil of Strength, we know that it’s easy math, but some people prefer Sigil of Strength because its easier to concentrate in other things rather than keep an internal biological timer to swap at the right time. If you are a nerd like me and you do count when you are hitting and doing stuff you might even try to find a perfect chain to also get exactly 9.5 secs to swap and get your stacks faster and up for longer. In conclusion, BOTH WORK, but it depends on player’s prefference.
3. Sigil of Battle + Sigil of Strength is a NO No nO, so sad about this, they should really do something to fix on swap CD, else I would be going sigil of earth + sigil of battle since I already get 25 stacks easier than farting (in my case). It also seems that it won’t not just “fail to proc”, it seems both CD will sum up, I didn’t test this but, my internal clock says so, yesterday I tested this just once and I felt more than 10 secs, so sad about it.
4. already 3 people in this topic won’t take a time to read full posts, and they would go dr;tl, and not counting someone’s joke about this acronym hehehe, I’m talking about other people that commented things that were already explained perfectly as Nakoda did with his CC statement + FJ. So people please MAKE SURE you read the whole post BEFORE you start quoting us.
5. Don’t aim at someone in this forum, if he has a different play style, if you wanna aim at someone and attack heavy in a post, then do it to someone that was not polite at you and at the same time “wrong” about something that is way off the reality. That’s what I enjoy and I love to show real facts and calculus in a harsh way to those that were not so polite with me(but still taking those 10 min of relaxing before typing), but if that was nice with me and he/she said something that was wrong then I will be nice to him/her and explain on a nice way.

Naioby.3705:

Probably works differently in PvE but this is something that I am still studying and trying to get as much details as possible

It does. Full Zerker (including weapon) in PvE gets you:

830 Power
504 Precision
42% Critical Damage

Zerker/Zerker trinket in sPvP gets you:

923 Power
644 Precision
313 Vitality
20% Critical Damage

I’m sure there’s similar variation with the sPvP and PvE versions of Rampager, which is why I think Mist Golem numbers should be taken with a grain of salt. I want someone who actually has a Rampager set and can tell me how much damage their Burn does, how high their Bleed stacking usually gets to (with what rune set), and how much their Flame Jet hits for comparatively to Zerker.

Until someone does that, I think this conversation about Condition Damage versus Power is really a total waste of time. Enough with the theorycrafting.

If you want to max your condition damage out at the sacrifice of some precision, then go Rampager or Apothecary for armor (and weapons), then choose Rabid for trinkets.

This nets you the most conditions without sacrificing too much precision. Rampager will add a bit more power and precision, but Apothecary will add some healing and toughness for survivability.

With my setup of Apothecary/Rabid (in rares, mind you) I have approximately 1200 condition and 37% crit chance (42% with Accuracy).

Sporadicus.1028:

If you want to max your condition damage out at the sacrifice of some precision, then go Rampager or Apothecary for armor (and weapons), then choose Rabid for trinkets.

This nets you the most conditions without sacrificing too much precision. Rampager will add a bit more power and precision, but Apothecary will add some healing and toughness for survivability.

With my setup of Apothecary/Rabid (in rares, mind you) I have approximately 1200 condition and 37% crit chance (42% with Accuracy).

I have a curiosity, what if you go Carrion + Rabid trinkets? since we are trying to use the FT as a condition applier using bleed+ inc ammo + burns from traits, wouldn’t you get more dmg at the cost of some crit chance? I’m wondering, does anybody has a proven answer? I would really like to know the result.

Zinwrath.2049:

So, +condition damage is going to effect the flamethrower’s damage heavily.

But does it affect it so heavily that one should forgo slotting any Critical Damage in their gear at all? With a kit that can clear a 70% Critical Hit Chance? This is precisely my problem with a Rampager setup and no one is responding to it. Even amateur observations with Mist Golems where you’re running half the Critical Damage you’d have in PvE totally canceled out any gain you’d muster by bolstering your Condition Damage.

I’m sure there’s plenty to be said about Rampager and it being muted compared to its sPvP trinket, but somehow I doubt it’s by all that much given that the difference in Power for the Zerker trinket is ~100 or less.

I simply don’t see it. I never have. Nothing in the patch changed the Flamethrower’s Condition Damage potential yet received a 10% buff to its direct damage so long as the target is burning.

Give me numbers. Real numbers. Stop just telling me it’s better. Show me how it is.

Zinwrath.2049:

Anyway, if your entirely focused on just seeing flamejet tally up to a big number, and seeing the biggest possible number on flame blast….well then sure. But if your trying to maximise the damage potential of the entire kit (and like i mentioned other kit/weapons fullfill AE direct damage or single target direct damage far superior than that of the FT) your best bet is to stack on some condition damage and use this between pistol attack rotations.

With all due respect, I don’t have to min/max every breath I make to get good efficiency out of the Flamethrower. So while it may interest you to do so to get the utmost “best” damage out of the build as humanly possible, I have enough on my plate just sustaining Super Elixir’s Light field and Fury on myself with Altruism + Drop Stimulant. So yes, I like standing there and using Flame Jet. Because I still complete CoF p1 in under ten minutes doing it.

I don’t use Air Blast for its burn. I like the change but I don’t need it given that I have Incendiary Powder + Flame Jet. In any group situation any target is going to have Burn 100% sustained, especially if there’s a Guardian or Elementalist in the group. This just simply is not an issue. So I use Air Blast as a defensive option for its knockback/interrupt.

It’s true Napalm misses out in a Power-based build, but is a remarkably mediocre skill regardless, best used with Acid Bomb for an area buff.

Naioby.3705:

Sporadicus.1028:

If you want to max your condition damage out at the sacrifice of some precision, then go Rampager or Apothecary for armor (and weapons), then choose Rabid for trinkets.

This nets you the most conditions without sacrificing too much precision. Rampager will add a bit more power and precision, but Apothecary will add some healing and toughness for survivability.

With my setup of Apothecary/Rabid (in rares, mind you) I have approximately 1200 condition and 37% crit chance (42% with Accuracy).

I have a curiosity, what if you go Carrion + Rabid trinkets? since we are trying to use the FT as a condition applier using bleed+ inc ammo + burns from traits, wouldn’t you get more dmg at the cost of some crit chance? I’m wondering, does anybody has a proven answer? I would really like to know the result.

While it is a bit underpowered atm, you can deliver decent sustained damage if you go for power. You can do that at the same time as having a great deal of survivability.

On the other hand. Of all the ways to go about being condition based, using FT for it is the worst way possible.

Also full Zerker is 57% Critical Damage increase, not 42%. My eyes are tired and totally neglected to account for Ruby orbs in jewelry.

Makes me feel like unless someone really impresses me with actual PvE numbers with Rampager, the winner is obvious. If Zerker trinket and Rampager trinket dish out identical damage, what happens when Zerker gear has nearly 3x more Critical Damage in PvE?

sad thing is, i’ve spent so much time in spvp leviticizing people’s demons that im still in a basic set of exotic rabid gear from back in my leveling up days, I haven’t earned any tokens yet.

pardon me while i stretch out on the irony board and work out a few wrinkles.

timidobserver.7925:

Naioby.3705:

Sporadicus.1028:

If you want to max your condition damage out at the sacrifice of some precision, then go Rampager or Apothecary for armor (and weapons), then choose Rabid for trinkets.

This nets you the most conditions without sacrificing too much precision. Rampager will add a bit more power and precision, but Apothecary will add some healing and toughness for survivability.

With my setup of Apothecary/Rabid (in rares, mind you) I have approximately 1200 condition and 37% crit chance (42% with Accuracy).

I have a curiosity, what if you go Carrion + Rabid trinkets? since we are trying to use the FT as a condition applier using bleed+ inc ammo + burns from traits, wouldn’t you get more dmg at the cost of some crit chance? I’m wondering, does anybody has a proven answer? I would really like to know the result.

While it is a bit underpowered atm, you can deliver decent sustained damage if you go for power. You can do that at the same time as having a great deal of survivability.

On the other hand. Of all the ways to go about being condition based, using FT for it is the worst way possible.

What you said, for me would be taken as a possibility not a real deal since I would love to see numbers as Phineas Poe said. Numbers show the reality, because to be honest, I tested the golems in sPvP and Carrion would take out more than 95% out of a golem (using inc ammo), than Berserker’s did (with inc ammo). But as we are debating right now, we know that numbers are different in PvE, so that’s why I’m wondering and not just me, we would like to have some screenshots + numbers to know between Zerker’s , Carrion’s, Rampager’s what would do the biggest ammount of dmg (cond+direct dmg altogether) in the “shortest” amount of time (yeah because if we go veggie pizza + durations then thats another story).

I’m not saying Carrion’s better but I wanna see numbers even screenies if its possible, thanks

Naioby.3705:

timidobserver.7925:

Naioby.3705:

Sporadicus.1028:

If you want to max your condition damage out at the sacrifice of some precision, then go Rampager or Apothecary for armor (and weapons), then choose Rabid for trinkets.

This nets you the most conditions without sacrificing too much precision. Rampager will add a bit more power and precision, but Apothecary will add some healing and toughness for survivability.

With my setup of Apothecary/Rabid (in rares, mind you) I have approximately 1200 condition and 37% crit chance (42% with Accuracy).

I have a curiosity, what if you go Carrion + Rabid trinkets? since we are trying to use the FT as a condition applier using bleed+ inc ammo + burns from traits, wouldn’t you get more dmg at the cost of some crit chance? I’m wondering, does anybody has a proven answer? I would really like to know the result.

While it is a bit underpowered atm, you can deliver decent sustained damage if you go for power. You can do that at the same time as having a great deal of survivability.

On the other hand. Of all the ways to go about being condition based, using FT for it is the worst way possible.

What you said, for me would be taken as a possibility not a real deal since I would love to see numbers as Phineas Poe said. Numbers show the reality, because to be honest, I tested the golems in sPvP and Carrion would take out more than 95% out of a golem (using inc ammo), than Berserker’s did (with inc ammo). But as we are debating right now, we know that numbers are different in PvE, so that’s why I’m wondering and not just me, we would like to have some screenshots + numbers to know between Zerker’s , Carrion’s, Rampager’s what would do the biggest ammount of dmg (cond+direct dmg altogether) in the “shortest” amount of time (yeah because if we go veggie pizza + durations then thats another story).

I’m not saying Carrion’s better but I wanna see numbers even screenies if its possible, thanks

Oh, no doubt that incendiary ammo would be extremely powerful on a condition flamethrower build. In the instances that incendiary ammo is up, you will definitely melt some faces. It just isn’t available enough to be viable/sustained IMO.

Also, numbers are always nice. I would like to see this as well. Do we have any math people in the engi forums?

Phineas Poe.3018:

But does it affect it so heavily that one should forgo slotting any Critical Damage in their gear at all? With a kit that can clear a 70% Critical Hit Chance? This is precisely my problem with a Rampager setup and no one is responding to it. Even amateur observations with Mist Golems where you’re running half the Critical Damage you’d have in PvE totally canceled out any gain you’d muster by bolstering your Condition Damage.

I never said not to get crit. Also spvp and pve are relative. If you can get 1500 stats on an amulet (for examp) and pve you can get 2000 stats total….its no different. You simply can pour more of the same stat into one thing, or mix match them in more custom ways in pve. But thats all.

Phineas Poe.3018:

I simply don’t see it. I never have. Nothing in the patch changed the Flamethrower’s Condition Damage potential yet received a 10% buff to its direct damage so long as the target is burning.

Give me numbers. Real numbers. Stop just telling me it’s better. Show me how it is.

First, Airblast extends burning conditions. Also its condition damage potential has always been its best quality.

Also, i’ve given you numbers i’ve tested it, all ya can do is test it yourself, but i dont think you will, i think you know i’m right…but what your doing is funner for you and tbh, you do pve. The dungeons are a cakewalk as long as you have 4 competant friends. So why worry about min maxing…just have a good time.

Phineas Poe.3018:

With all due respect, I don’t have to min/max every breath I make to get good efficiency out of the Flamethrower. So while it may interest you to do so to get the utmost “best” damage out of the build as humanly possible, I have enough on my plate just sustaining Super Elixir’s Light field and Fury on myself with Altruism + Drop Stimulant. So yes, I like standing there and using Flame Jet. Because I still complete CoF p1 in under ten minutes doing it.

Exactly, it works well enough for what you want to do. And you obviously have fun doing it. Who cares if theres something that works better when you can acheive what you want to do with what you find fun. This isnt spvp where fun < effective.

Phineas Poe.3018:

I don’t use Air Blast for its burn. I like the change but I don’t need it given that I have Incendiary Powder + Flame Jet. In any group situation any target is going to have Burn 100% sustained, especially if there’s a Guardian or Elementalist in the group. This just simply is not an issue. So I use Air Blast as a defensive option for its knockback/interrupt.

once again pve. and once again you could be doing other things that would be more effective but hey all good fun, i mean some monsters are immune to burning…most dont have retaliation… variables are a lot different in pve, and like i said earlier. Non of it is entirely so difficult that you couldnt come into any dungeon with ANY dreamed up build. My friends and I burned through the content and dungeons in under 2 months…in that time i probably at some point used everything just for the hell of it. Only did a couple speed runs though, dont get the grinding mentality people have……no point running them if your not having fun doing them, cosmetic gear isnt worth it to show the world you have too much free time (aka glory rewards)

Phineas Poe.3018:

It’s true Napalm misses out in a Power-based build, but is a remarkably mediocre skill regardless, best used with Acid Bomb for an area buff.

Best used with anyone who has combo finishers. As i often use healing turret due to it having an enormious heal and condition wipe (can detonate it right after using for heal + water finisher heal) i sometimes lay it downt o heal then blow it up in my firewall to get two combo finishers. Napalm isnt mediocre, slow cast time but its the only combo field/finisher this kit has and if you have some condition damage…can greatly increase the out put of your damage..i think your under estimating conditions….

in SPVP you cant afford to not use things in a way that isnt optimal or do the best possible build, because as you climb higher in ladders and fight people on equal or higher skill….they will be using the stronger tools, and you cant afford a handicap so you gotta use the best build possible as well or you wont come out ontop.

also Phineas, while i dont think flamethrower is the go to power weapon. I will say generally Power/crit/critdamage > conditions in dungeons, because conditions have a cap.

nakoda.4213:

The point is that there is a REASON for different types of strengths and weaknesses in video games, it is to broaden the appeal to a wider audience. Not everyone will like engie at ALL, and within the class people will play differently, and the game is DESIGNED to allow and encourage this diversity.

True. But it allows it in the same way i could allow you to go into a cage match with someone and offer you either

A spoon.
A baseball bat.
A chainsaw
A shotgun
or a shoelace.

Now whatever you CHOOSE to take into the ring i’m sure you could in some way use to beat your opponent. But there are obviously better options.

This game was not designed balanced, if it was they would not have just greatly buffed flame thrower and majorly nerfed a popular trait. They are still in the process of fixing their game…even go so far as making more crude changes like replacing traits with new traits and changing what abilities do (i remember when throw mine was mine kit…5 different mines on one kit that could all be traited to knockback).

So i agree the game gives you options, and what you do with those options is your own business, but there will be always stronger options and more optimal ways to play than others to complete your goals.

timidobserver.7925:

Also, numbers are always nice. I would like to see this as well. Do we have any math people in the engi forums?

Me <= lil bit nerdy XD

I’m thinking… If I don’t get a convincing answer for Carrion vs Berserker vs Rampager then Imma start creating a program calc for all stats, tics and flicks, or maybe an excel sheet with auto calc formulas to just imput values (that would be less time consuming XD)

I’m tempted… so please someone give me a nice answer so not to waste my weekend (else I will make the program then offer it for SALE hahahaha)

timidobserver.7925:

While it is a bit underpowered atm, you can deliver decent sustained damage if you go for power. You can do that at the same time as having a great deal of survivability.

On the other hand. Of all the ways to go about being condition based, using FT for it is the worst way possible.

FT, when used with EG and double pistols, provides the highest condition damage possible.

I start my rotation in FT to build up might stacks, preferably getting all 7 stacks (no +boon duration gear) in before going into combat. Then I switch to EG and use Fumigate. I swap to Pistols and toss Poison shot, Confusion, and Blowtorch. Then I head back to FT, hit them once with the FJ, then toss an Air Blast, Flame Blast, and Napalm. Then back to EG for bleeding. If I am doing PvE, I usually use Elixir U to give a burst of bleeding from EG at the end.

This nets you four different damaging conditions with three of them fairly easily maintained. More variance in damaging conditions means more damage from conditions overall. If you really need more burn you can always pop Incendiary Ammo and stay out of FT longer.

FT helps you maintain burn more easily than any other weapon, and also helps you sustain it longer without the use of condition duration buffs. Napalm and Air Blast are very good for adding conditions without staying in FT too long.

Just remember, the key to effective kit swapping lies not in waiting for the GCD of the kit to run down, but the tilde key. If you just want a quick swap from primary weapon to kit and back, use the kit button and then the tilde (weapon swap) button.

Zinwrath.2049:

I never said not to get crit. Also spvp and pve are relative. If you can get 1500 stats on an amulet (for examp) and pve you can get 2000 stats total….its no different. You simply can pour more of the same stat into one thing, or mix match them in more custom ways in pve. But thats all.

When talking about Power and Condition Damage, yes. But you cannot seriously suggest that 20% Critical Damage and 57% Critical Damage are fairly representative of each other.

Zinwrath.2049:

This isnt spvp where fun < effective.

I guess that’s true, but are we talking about purely sPvP here? I actually don’t much use the Flamethrower in sPvP, so I cannot comment on its effectiveness there. I generally use P/P Elixirs.

Zinwrath.2049:

cosmetic gear isnt worth it to show the world you have too much free time (aka glory rewards)

Well, for one thing Ascended gear isn’t cosmetic, unless you think upgrading your rare jewelry to exotic is pointless. It’s a whole different tier with improved stats. I mean I’m with you on Legendary weapons, which is why I don’t have one (aside from the fact that I’m a kit Engineer), but in my book we all grind—in PvE, WvW, and sPvP—just in different ways. You don’t find dungeon runs fun. I don’t find playing the same five maps fun. I find it a grind—only a distraction or change-up from PvE.

We clearly have differing perspectives, and that’s fine. Just important to recognize that from here on out.

Zinwrath.2049:

in SPVP you cant afford to not use things in a way that isnt optimal or do the best possible build, because as you climb higher in ladders and fight people on equal or higher skill….they will be using the stronger tools, and you cant afford a handicap so you gotta use the best build possible as well or you wont come out ontop.

Except nobody is going to stand on top of that thin sheet of fire that Napalm is. In PvE a mob won’t know the difference and won’t react, but a human player will in sPvP. To be quite honest: I’m not sure I really see the Flamethrower a good option in sPvP only because it’s better used as a sustained AoE weapon. There are some skirmishes in sPvP around objectives, but I think the kit would shine more in WvW just by its very nature.

Napalm was never designed as a constant source of burning itself. Napalm is more useful as a Combo Field.

You can always try to use net shots to immobilize folks in Napalm, but that’s more like a 25% chance to be successful.

I prefer to use Napalm to give area might and add burning to my bleed shots from Pistol and EG.

Could someone please check if these values are up to date? I’m trying to make a calc
http://pvx.gw2buildcraft.com/Damage_Calculations#Kits

It seems wether the Flame Jet’s Coefficient is no longer 1.5 or maybe it is but the base weapon (FT) dmg was reduced probably and is not 969. Remember I’m talking FT weapon not the main weapons (guns, rifle) they won’t count for direct dmg in Flame Jet’s tooltip.

Tooltip damage = (average weapon strength) * Power * (skill-specific coefficient) / (level-based Armor value)

Base Weapon Constant=(916×Weapon Strength) / 2600

Base Direct Damage=Base Weapon Constant×Skill Coefficient

Base Direct DPS=Base Direct Damage / Activation Time

916 it seems is the base power you get as level 80. Same goes for Base vit at level 80.

@Phineas

Generally agree with most your statements.

I dont think SPVP is a grind to anything in the same way PVE is.

In SPVP your never doing something that you already find trivial repeatedly to try to earn some cosmetic (or better stats, but personally by time i hit 80 from farming crafting materials like mad etc, i was able to have a full set of exotics in a few days) Ascended gear is in..but there is nothing in the game you cant do without exotics, just high level fractals become a real pain in the kitten without em. Its their soft way of introducing a vertical progression system. And most ascended gear is earned through grinding content you’ve already completed.

in SPVP, your not fighting predictable npc’s that once you figure out their pattern will never offer you a challenge. You fight players, who will play differently each time, counter your strategy and try to out smart you. Its same reason people play counter strike dust 2 and office over and over for 10 years. Its not about the content of the map, its the content of players which is always new because players adapt.

PVE doesnt have this yet, atleast not in this game not for me…they give you content, you beat content, you move on (or sit grinding to build up a nest egg or to buy a legendary which imo, is NOT worth the time doing stuff i find tedious over and over like clicking on ore to mine it or doing speed runs.)

Like SOE head john smedly said (Makers of upcoming Everquest Next who i have qouted a few times cause he made some really good statements recently)

“In my opinion, the days when companies can make content [generation] the number one strategy, in the kinds of games we make, are over, because we can’t win the war. Star Wars [The Old Republic] proved that. Players bought it, loved it and they played the game. Then they left.”

This is GW2, outside WvW the pve doesnt really offer anything to do once you got your crap and completed the content. Not enough social activities for players to create their own content. Like everquest 2 (the only pve mmo i really ever got into) has housing so you can create your own house and take things you earned in the world to decorate it and sell stuff from your home, and have monthly House showings where you can vote who has the best decor. It has server wide lottery for gamblers. Emote system where you can chat with your friends having your voice altered and allow a webcam to map your face so you can make your in game character move to your face expressions and mouth movements for entertaining fun. Dungeon maker, where you can take monsters you earn through out the world and put them in your very own dungeon where you set the rules to let players come in and play it and earn stuff, and even rate your dungeon. Players can make their own cosmetics if they know how to texture and model and sell them through SOE’s store. Even tradeskills are built around playing little mini games.

GW2 has the weird cosmetic battles (another form of pvp) …not much else.
It was SUPPOSED to be a game where you could evolve the world and have social activities to keep you happy and distracted from the gear grind….but they ended up with just the gear grind while you wait for content to be added.

Anyway, i’m rambling now and this is way off topic of flame throwers not working. But wanted to express my PVE view of things and why this game doenst fullfill me.

I have to say I disagree. Guild Wars 2 is way more robust in PvE content than Guild Wars 1 was. And Guild Wars 1 was very successful—otherwise we wouldn’t be playing its sequel.

I remember in August/September there was a surge of players who rushed through the content, got to level 80, and didn’t know what to with themselves. They went back to WoW with its endless treadmill chasing that carrot on a stick. Nobody misses them. And they’ll certainly be back when the expansion comes out and we return to Cantha or Elona. And then they’ll leave again. It’s just the way the industry goes. I think ANet is smart not to frame their game around that population which can quite honestly never be satisfied.

Guild Wars 2 isn’t like that because Guild Wars 1 wasn’t like that. If that’s not someone’s type of game I completely understand, but it is definitely a successful model and GW2 still going strong says a lot about that. Even with the upgrades to world event chests I still get thrown in Lion’s Arch overflow on the weekends. Plenty of people are still playing the game; I feel like the population has done nothing but grow, to be honest.

You don’t have to run Fractal 48 to successfully complete any of the other dungeons in the game. It’s completely optional, and they’re now introducing other methods to getting Ascended gear to satisfy other play styles (aside from the backpack).

I play Battlefield 3, Halo 4, NHL 13, and a variety of other multiplayer titles on my Xbox. I know what draws people to competitive multiplayer. I definitely enjoy it. But I’ll take new Skyrim DLC over a new CoD map pack any day of the week. That is just how I roll; I’m a PvE guy and PvP is always secondary.

Perhaps the Flamethrower better supports my PvE-centric playstyle than yours. That’s all right, because the Tool Kit in my opinion is total crap in PvE, considering how stupid-good it got buffed in the latest patch and is almost mandatory in WvW. I still love it and don’t really think this needs to be changed. Some skills shine in certain areas of the game that others won’t. Every class deals with this. I eat Greatsword Warriors for breakfast in sPvP.

Phineas.

for one thing everyone eats GS warriors in Spvp…go to the spvp forums, everyone agrees warriors are probably the weakest profession for tspvp, they’re simply a hotjoin hero…they’re good at beating people new or too unskilled to dodge or use stun breakers. (some say necromancer, and many will argue engineer isnt much better).

Also, you have a way of stating things without backing it up. See where i give lots of reasoning in my comparison to Everquest 2 to this game. Its got TONS more features that are not tied to simply grinding while waiting on content. Yet you gave nothing to support what GW2 has that isnt just another form of gear treadmill….eventually they will put in new cosmetic legendarys that you just have to have…and you will chase that carrot, doing the same tedious boring repetitive events like farming ore (its not fun, no one will argue it is..you can do this in ANY game).

Also, WoW isnt the only successful mmo’s there are many mmos, not everyone who left this game is playing that. And people didnt leave this game simply because they wanted a gear treadmill….there was nothing to do except grind after they completed their story and content. I gave a HUGE list of what eq2 players can do aside from grinding outside of content, you didnt give anything to back what gw2 PVE has other than grinding between content. Hell, read the tons of forum threads in general chat about how this game has NOTHING for guilds to do over 5 players outside WvW. NO raids, no guild hall to purchase decorate and hold meetings and fun events in with portals mini games (like eq2)….they finally put in guild missions because they realized this was killing off a huge chunk of the player base….PVE’rs who came here with a large guild and had nothing to do as a guild. (mine was one of those, this is why they left…and no they didnt go back to wow, or eq2..they went to a couple other successfull mmos or are holding out for eq next or titan)

And your right, toolkit is less effective in PVE than it is in pvp. Because it doesnt fullfill its PVE role, which is healing your turrets in combat. They buffed its ability to do that, but turrets dont scale (off power anyway), and its heal (despite buffing it 100%) is still crap. So while some people would like to basicly be the tf2 engineer in PVE, they cant and its a problem imo.

Also FT is the most popular weapon we have….its cool…it shoots FIRE. People wanna use it, in all game modes. SO it should be designed so you can. Thats the key to good game design, when the players are able to have fun doing what they wanna do. the moment your forced to do something you dont wanna do in a game….you made a mistake, every moment of designing a game you should ask yourself “is this fun?” thats arenanets own words.

Oh quick fix for toolkit since its OBVIOUSLY supposed to synergize with turrets. Make it so when you wack em, you give them might stacks. and make one of the other abilities (crowbar..magnet?) mark the npc/pc so turrets do more damage to that npc/pc.

This would have been fun…and would have fullfilled that bunkery/turret user role that so many players expected to be able to do.

Zinwrath.2049:

for one thing everyone eats GS warriors in Spvp

Please don’t take my wording out of context. All I’m saying is that certain builds shine in certain areas of the game, and I think the GS Warrior is a perfect example. I feel fully comfortable with what my FT build offers to my group in PvE. I don’t think it translates 1:1 in WvW in sPvP, though.

Zinwrath.2049:

Also, you have a way of stating things without backing it up.

[….]

Yet you gave nothing to support what GW2 has that isnt just another form of gear treadmill….

I didn’t back it up because anyone who has played Guild Wars 1 knows precisely what I’m talking about. WvW is way more epic than Alliance Battles and Fort Aspenwood/Jade Quarry ever were, and s/tPvP is going to continue to build in content. The only real think the PvP area of the game is missing is GvG, which is what tPvP ends up being half the time anyway.

In GW1 their idea of difficult content was running the story all over again—on Hard Mode. Other enjoyable things to do in your off-time were running against walls to complete Explorer, grab duplicate skills in Cantha and Elona from elites that you already had from Prophecies, and standing on circles during holidays.

Obviously I’m being reductive here, but Guild Wars 2 blows Guild Wars 1 out of the water in PvE, and was successful in holding lasting power for years despite directly competing with WoW. GW2 is going to be just fine.

There is no gear treadmill in this game. You don’t need gear from Ascalon Catacombs to do Sorrow’s Embrace, nor do you need gear from Sorrow’s Embrace to do Arah. Level 80 PvE is actually completely flat. This is why people got bored and left after quitting life for a month to play GW2 18 hours straight every day. They failed to actually notice that the design philosophy of GW2 is directly opposite of that playstyle.

The only exception to this is Fractals of the Mist, which can be completely ignored with laurel/guild rewards. Some content is obviously harder than others. Running CM all day is a cake walk compared to Arah path 4.

ArenaNet is sticking to their guns in my book.

Zinwrath.2049:

Hell, read the tons of forum threads in general chat about how this game has NOTHING for guilds to do over 5 players outside WvW. NO raids, no guild hall to purchase decorate and hold meetings and fun events in with portals mini games (like eq2)….they finally put in guild missions because they realized this was killing off a huge chunk of the player base….PVE’rs who came here with a large guild and had nothing to do as a guild.

Like you said, Guild Missions are the official answer to this. My guild completes Tier 3 Bounty Hunts every weekend, before and after the reset. It takes a pretty big effort by a lot of people to track down and kill 6 different NPCs in 15 minutes across a dozen different zones. I enjoy this kind of stuff—no skin off my back if you don’t.

But we did stuff together even before the GM addition. Being able to do temple events in Arah all by ourselves is a lot of fun. The group content is there.

And I’m sorry, but I don’t miss raids. I don’t miss having to schedule my life around a video game just to keep up with everybody else. I’m not a teenager anymore and despite the fact that my job grants me the flexibility of posting online, I don’t have time to sit in dungeons for two and a half hours three times a week.

If ArenaNet actually did this I would be very frustrated and disappointed, because I love that dungeons are short (at least most of them), repeatable, and don’t require 40 people to do it.

Zinwrath.2049:

And your right, toolkit is less effective in PVE than it is in pvp. Because it doesnt fullfill its PVE role, which is healing your turrets in combat. They buffed its ability to do that, but turrets dont scale (off power anyway), and its heal (despite buffing it 100%) is still crap. So while some people would like to basicly be the tf2 engineer in PVE, they cant and its a problem imo.

It’s a work in progress. Spirit Weapons for Guardians received a buff last patch. I see a similar one coming for the Engineer’s Turrets.

Zinwrath.2049:

Also FT is the most popular weapon we have….its cool…it shoots FIRE.

I’m curious what makes you think the FT is the most popular weapon we have, given all the negative reaction surrounding it in every GD thread here.

Thats the thing, when you see a complaint around something, that means its the most popular thing. People complain about it, because they like it…but it isnt working right or as well as something else thus making them feel pigeoned into doing something they dont wanna do so they can be successful. It goes back to my call out on their not living up to their own design philosphy. Engineers wanna burn stuff and build turrets and lay meaningful mines. Every person i EVER talked to who came to this game and decided to play engineer wanted this. You dont have to search back (hell it was every other post in beta) to see people whining about turrets not doing what they want, or flame thrower not doing what they want…or they cry for a sniper rifle. IMO all these things should have met everyones expectations, they should work in a way that makes people happy and is fun.

Also, ya guild missions is A answer, my point on launch…it didnt have those, which means it had NOTHING for guilds to do over 5 in PVE. Thus all the guilds left, and are now tied up in other games…and newer bigger mmos are around the corner…most of those guilds are not going to ever migrate back here, and its a shame…gw2 dropped the ball on a lot of potential customers, Look at AoC, a complete wreck on launch…but they released an expantion that really showed they could get their Ish together, but no one cared…..they move on, always new games around the corner and most people are not obsessed fanboys who are gonna spare their lmited free time supporting and playing a game that is in process of fixing their crap.

And you dont deny anything i said regarding lack of things to do outside gear grind. The philosophy you dont need gear from one dungeon to do another dungeon etc doesnt matter… I MADE and bought my exotics upon hitting 80, only a few were from dungeons. And i ran every single dungeon…multiple times on most for the experience and story. Thus i completed the content…running the same dungeon is boring after you have done it a few times, because you already know what will happen, and it only gets easier instead of more challenging, thus why it bores you. The fact there isnt a reward needed from one to go to the next just speeds up how quickly the players can burn through content, and eventually grow bored with it. Fractals was designed to counter this, by making those dungeons progressively get harder each time you complete them…so instead of constantly getting easier, they become more challenging. But the rewards end up being things you need to progress further, which is counter productive….and thus angered an even LARGER group of people who were fanboys of the idea of no gear treadmill….which they turned around and put in with ascended gear.

And yes, everythings a work in progress…but like i said, this is why people migrate back to other mmos or move on. You could say, “well X mmo didnt have all those features at launch…give gw2 a couple years” well thats just the thing, people have lives…and limited free time, i’m not gonna play a game that isnt giving me what i want when another game does. Right now (from a pve point of view) gw2 gives me a neat looking world and professions to sit at 80 and twiddle my thumbs because i completed all the content and theres nothing else to do till but tedious grinding till they put in more.

Zinwrath.2049:

IMO all these things should have met everyones expectations, they should work in a way that makes people happy and is fun.

But there are builds for the Flamethrower that make a lot of people happy and are fun. I and others have made that point clear already.

Might-stacking is a very simple and easy method to make the Flamethrower work in PvE. As I stated before, because it is an AoE kit, it’s probably not well designed for sPvP and probably never be. If people make it work I’m glad for them, but I’m not going to clamor ArenaNet to change the way the FT works that may in turn affect how it performs in PvE/WvW. Case in point: Gadgets are amazing for PvP as control options, but in PvE they’re really only used as Blast finishers for most Engi builds.

As you probably remember, the Flamethrower once upon a time wasn’t even designed to be a good DPS option, used instead for Stability as a tankier method to play the Engineer. I took that to heart, even after Juggernaut’s redesign, and thought the FT (and the EG) was always relegated to be a more defensive, tanky option the same way a Guardian would use a Mace over a Greatsword.

What we have right now instead is closer to a Hammer, but people still clamor for the Greatsword. Because the Grenade Kit does more damage there’s something wrong with it—like every Attunement for the Elementalist should be modeled after Fire.

Zinwrath.2049:

Also, ya guild missions is A answer, my point on launch…it didnt have those, which means it had NOTHING for guilds to do over 5 in PVE. Thus all the guilds left, and are now tied up in other games…and newer bigger mmos are around the corner…most of those guilds are not going to ever migrate back here, and its a shame

Yeah, it’s a crying shame. What will we do with ourselves?

(Who seriously cares?)

People come and go. That’s how all online games are. The question is how good the attrition rate is, and by all indications I think Guild Wars 2 is doing just fine in that regard—at least on Sanctum of Rall.

Zinwrath.2049:

But the rewards end up being things you need to progress further, which is counter productive….and thus angered an even LARGER group of people who were fanboys of the idea of no gear treadmill….which they turned around and put in with ascended gear.

Oh please. Agony Resistance has no purpose outside of Fractals. People were angry about the announcement originally because they were jumping to conclusions. That was November. This is March. Nobody is afraid of any treadmill being implemented.

You can still complete any dungeon in the game with exotic gear just fine. It’s only for people that want it (i.e., people who want a gear grind). If you don’t want it, you don’t have to get it or play it.

I’m not really sure what you want, here. If there is no gear treadmill, there has to be a point where you have the best available gear in the game. That’s where my Engineer has been for months—I still boot up the game every other day.

Zinwrath.2049:

And yes, everythings a work in progress…but like i said, this is why people migrate back to other mmos or move on. You could say, “well X mmo didnt have all those features at launch…give gw2 a couple years” well thats just the thing, people have lives…and limited free time, i’m not gonna play a game that isnt giving me what i want when another game does.

I think the elephant in the room here is that (1) you are still playing Guild Wars 2 and (2) Guild Wars 1 existed precisely by that model of a coming-and-going playerbase.

Following every expansion there was always a surge of players—new and old. I was one of them. I’d play all the content available in each expansion and then go back to playing other stuff.

If you’re bored of the game then stop playing it. I admire your loyalty to state your complaints about the game rather than dropping it entirely, but if you’re not having fun with a game anymore than maybe it’s time to take a break from it and wait until they add new content.

If you don’t come back, that’s on them.

Well, there you have it then. GW2 is a game where you enjoy the content then go play something else untill they add more unless you wanna sit and grind. Which is fine if thats all you wanted.

but, i already explained features a game like Everquest even has that is done in a way that keeps players glued to their game by giving them more fun things to do that dont involve grinding or company generated content.

As for me, i quit playing the pve side of the game in october. And i didnt log on at all for nearly 2 months novemb-january. Lightly kept track of what was happening, but did not play it. My only interest was the spvp, and the new patch caught my attention adding match making and rank. Unfortunatly the patch was a let down, spvp has seen a steady decline since launch and in my short recess ques have over doubled and hotjoin servers are less than half running at any given time. (others have screen shots on the spvp forums proving this). A lot of respected “pros” from teams for spvp are already on hiatis not playing till next patch and some are threatening to quit or are quitting. A couple companys that were sponsoring teams prepping up incase/when the game goes E-sport have already pulled out. And many are leaving an interview about it on the 14th as their deciding moment on whether theyll move on or not.

In short, SPVP is on balancing ont he wall for competitive types like myself….we like features that drew us to the game, but it dropped the ball on everything else and is still littered with problems and lack of functions for a proper match making/tournament system. (they advertised more)

TBH like them i’m keeping it in my eye till this next patch and if crap hits the fan, you probably wont see me on the forums at all, as seasons for other competitive games are starting and ill be hopping in on atleast 1-2 of em so time will be strict, and if i decide to play a PVE mmo, i’ll probably wait for everquest next and see if it delivers. If it has half of what eq2 does with a lightforge engine…i’ll definitly be seen there. Hope the 14th has good news, we’ll see.

Ok for both of you guys, yes Zinwrath has some points it’s true it could be better but at least it’s not bad. We have jumping puzzles, it’s nice, the only problem is, once you beat them like 10 times, you don’t feel like doing them again or just sometimes. There should be some special events going on top of jumping puzzles to encourage doing it, and it will only trigger with 5 ppl… that is a great idea imo, and it will encourage to get friends or LFG website or call guildies and say : “hey you know the event at southsun cove is active!!! who wants to join???”
Phineas is also right, we have variety of things that are unique (I think so), for instance we have our tp, no one even mentioned how cool is to have a “mini stock market” inside of a game? why? hahaha I love it, it’s the first time I can get to see a mini version of the real life’s stock market, I’m also a business man in real life and to be honest I learn some stuff out from tp hahaha incredible. Gold goes up n down, some events would trigger the value of stuff, suddenly new patches will grant some new feature that a specific skill will benefit out from a hammer that no one wouldn’t use as apothecary hammer and blah blah blah (it’s an example).
Also, we have gems and we can trade it for gold which usually other games you just have one option which is real dollars, but here I see the magic of finding my way to get that thing using the gem statistics, whenever I register is the low season to buy gems.

Sinwrath also said something, but I will polish it, WvW won’t offer as much as it should, sometimes I would get into WvW but after 30 min I feel kinda bored specially if there are no zergs around. I will give you an old example, Ragnarok Online (not the number 2… I mean the first version) have you guys ever played it? well Imma give you a short view of what this game called “GUILD WARS” yeah ironically that name huh?. In ragnarok there would be a day in which, you were rushing to take a castle with all your guild mates, you could even be allied to another guild to have more guild power to take a castle, and I remember how it was… that was exiting, in some way even better than our WvW because castles were BIG, and there were MAZES inside of the castles. I mean we already have big buildings and caves and stuff in GW2, why not make a maze inside of the WvW castles? O_o. Also it wasn’t just that, you were able, once your guild owned the castle, to buy guards and upgrades. Yeah, we have something similar in WvW, but we are talking that once you got into the castle territory you were getting inside of the castle’s maze and fighting mobs that were placed there, it was very freaking hard to just keep going alive in that maze, some times there wouldn’t be any guild able to capture that castle cuz it was really hard. Oh… and why go to the end of the maze??? its because at the end there was this big rock called “oridecon” that you had to destroy in order to take over the castle and disable all guards and defensive systems, and you felt like “AT LAST!!”. Also inside of the castle there were dungeons that you were able to get in ONLY after you owned it, well we can have something similar… instead of a vip dungeon we could have a special chest that would be there once every week? or so?, as an incentive to take a castle.

In conclusion what I mean is, at least we are getting fixes and I noticed that GMs really listen to our pledges as we were in many posts saying “please make FT’s #2 to be able to activate the explosion” so, we just have to keep asking for fixes and reveal bugs. Games like WoW already have many years, GW2 is far different from GW1 so we cant consider it as one, therefore GW2 is a new game and it’s improving on each patch. ARENA NET is trying the best to fullfill most of our mmo’s dreams, but we need a lil patience.