Guild Wars 2

So I’m looking for a dungeon build to carry a pug with. Noticing that going straight up zerker when the rest of my group is not greatly decreases my chance of survival. However, I don’t want to try to spend all my time supporting them either. So I guess I’m looking for a middle ground of being able to survive without sacrificing too much damage. Preferably something running with a rifle and bomb kit at minimum.

You can support just fine in berserker’s gear, unless you’re having trouble surviving as well. Healing Turret – Bomb Kit – Elixir Gun – Elixir R should be enough to keep your group alive unless they’re really bad. The AoE res on elixir R is lovely, and so is the 5x condi cleanse on poison jet if you’re in close quarters. You do sacrifice the superior vulnerability stacking from grenades, though.

If it’s just the personal survivability you could also use Knight’s armor or a few pieces (helm, pants, chest, boots, gloves, shoulder, in that order) without losing much DPS. With the meta-build (taking the one from Phineas Phoe) you already offer:
- Condi Cleanse with Elixer Gun 3
- Healing with Elixer Gun 5 and few bandages from Supply Crate
- Regeneration from toolbelt skills from Healing Turret and Elixer Gun
- Relatively long cooldown Blindness from Bombkit 4
- In case of massive AoE healing needed there’s Healing Turrets waterfield with a bunch of blastfinishers (Detonate Turret, Big Ol’d Bomb, Supply Crate, Elixer Gun 4)
- 3rd Utility can either be used for another Blastfinisher or swapped to Elixer U if you need anti-projectile/reflect or like Sins suggested Elixer R for an emergency group ressurect.
How much more can a team need?

You must run grenades. Pugs do not stack vuln. The dps gain of 15% on bosses and 25% on thrash is invaluable.
You must use bomb kit and strength runes. Pugs don’t stack might.
Build around grenade dps but use bombs for utility. Blinds, might, stealth.
Gear is full zerker obviously. Weapons can be giver(p/s) or zerker(rifle).
Even if a lot of people love elixir gun it’s useless. The stunbreak(not necessary in pve) can be covered by thumper turret. The heal is an absolute joke. The blast finisher is ok but also any turret will work for that. Only ok thing is fumigate but running around cleaning conditions means you’re not doing much else.
Elixir U is good if you need projectile mitigation.
Elixir R toolbelt won’t save anyone downed if the mobs keep hitting them.

PUGs don’t deal damage either. 1.25 × 0 is still 0. Personal damage is what you should care about most. Also, Toss Elixir R is a great revive.

I use HGH zerk grenades in PuGs and never die.

http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?fdAQFAUlcTp6q1XxELseNSbBNqwI6i8km85CEgjC-TxRBABU8AAuS5HN7PgnOAAuAAUq+jZKBBA-e

You invest 6 points into alchemy and get some pretty wonderful vitality. You can clear conditions from allies by throwing elixirs, keep up 10+ stacks of might consistently, apply conditions pretty well, you get extra damage from keeping up the elixir boons, etc, etc… Very solid damage, good group support, condition removal, condition applying, and great survivability with full Zerk. Give it a shot and see how you like it. Traits should be pretty self explanatory… The 10 points in tools allows perma swiftness for roaming and escaping things, which is very helpful as well.

A pug is always going to be a mixed bag. But I suppose what you’re going for here is dealing with some of the worst of the worst (bearbows, signet warriors, staff guardians, constant knockbacks, overwriting fields, people who won’t listen, etc.)

Thankfully, engineer is a class that can cover many aspects of a group which may not appear in a pug (vulnerability stacking, might stacking, stealth, good aoe damage)

Bomb kit, grenades and healing turret are must haves. Third utility is up to you, but by default and my favourite pick is elixir gun (low cooldown blast finisher, stun break, heals and great group condition cleanse + 1 self condi cleanse)
A smart use of blinds is also required which engineers have ample of (grenades, bombs, main hand pistol)

I find freeze grenades to be invaluable for melee fights. Stack condition duration (giver weapons, condi duration food and 30 into explosives) to really slow down melee enemies.

Here’s what I run
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fdMQJAqelUUpdrlYxPLseNSaBNq0A6M8i6+5GEgnC-TxhFwADegAAUCaU5HjTEgM1fGt/wF9EBAOAY6AhAUsBA-e

Only change I can currently think of is to use forceful explosives over shrapnel when people start spamming fields other than fire on the enemy.

Thanks for all the useful info. And yes, my main concern was dealing with random pugs holding me back. Quick question though, I’ve been under the impression that the Bomb Kit out damages the Grenade Kit. And Vuln stacking should be about the same between the two since Bomb 2, 4, and 5 tick Vuln on pulse as well. Is this not right?

Pistol + shield or rifle doesn’t matter that much. Just don’t use a pistol offhand.

Go for 6/6/0/X/X.

Use grenades, bombs and elixier gun. Elixier gun can be swapped for thumper turret since he got 3 combo finisher allowing you to share 18 stacks might for 30 sec (rune of strength).

Sigil of battle and force.

Shaogin.2679:

Thanks for all the useful info. And yes, my main concern was dealing with random pugs holding me back. Quick question though, I’ve been under the impression that the Bomb Kit out damages the Grenade Kit. And Vuln stacking should be about the same between the two since Bomb 2, 4, and 5 tick Vuln on pulse as well. Is this not right?

Bomb kit does out damage the grenade kit.
Grenade kit is much superior to bomb kit for vulnerability stacking. 3 vulnerability per throw > 1 vulnerability per bomb even when pulsing.

Also, the downside of thumper turret is that it has a long cooldown (50 seconds) which doesn’t match even 100% might duration (40 seconds) while elixir gun can provide the same amount of blast finishers (3) in the time it takes for thumper turret to come off cooldown + you get extra useful skills to go with it. Just got to weigh up your options. Do you want burst stacking might or continuous sustained might? Which one would be better for a pug scenario?

A engi build for pugs is kind of a misdirection. With the ability to reset traits on the fly, there’s no build you need to stick to. Just use what is needed where it is needed, and you’re good to go.

That said, when I first go into a dungeon, I usually use a 2/6/0/0/6 bomb/static discharge build, with full zerker gear. Utilities are healing turret, bomb kit, rifle turret, then a filler spot that I always change up due to what is needed.

I’d always recommend the bomb kit for pugs, since it has a lot of really useful tools. For one, with forceful explosions the radius is huge, so it is possible to hit enemies scattered far and wide. Secondly, the blind field on smoke bomb is invaluable for keeping yourself alive, since any experienced player will probably be taking all the aggro. Third, the fire field can let you stack precious few might, and also does a lot of condi damage. The glue shot can also let you escape the horde of mobs that will chase you, since in all likelyhood you’ll match the damage of the rest of the group combined.

Healing turret is a must. The AoE heal + condi cleanse + water field gives you a lot of leeway with pugs, giving them a surprising amount of sustain. Though one has to wonder how a full cleric guardian using scepter auto attack at maximum range manages to take so much damage…

Everything else is just preference. For encounters where I can’t melee the boss, I swap to a 6/2/0/0/6 greandier SD build. This build won’t do as much damage, but makes for a nice backup in cases where bomb kit doesn’t cut it.

For side support utilities, there’s a couple that are really worth mentioning:

Elixir U: The projectile stopping toolbelt skill is extremely useful.
Elixir R: The rez and endurance regen is quite useful.
Elixir Gun: Has a great support toolbox
Net turret: good for stacking immobilize on melee bosses
Mine Field: This one is rarely used, but against bosses where boon stripping is a must, this will get the job done.

To be honest, grenades are too strong to be ignored. Their passive damage dealt with vulnerability aswell their insane condition stacking makes them by far the best ranged option. Especially in pugs you often are unable to facetank, even with bombs. Also the chilling and another blind aswell the higher damage of 2 and 4 are stronger than any static discharge. I don’t really like DS tbh – it forces you to use your toolbelt skills, even if you don’t need them. The damage is also just … ok. I don’t say anything else except 6/6/0/X/X is bad. But I say it’s definitly weaker.

A good combination is the glue bomb followed by elixier gun 4 since it deals insane damage. While in midair just swap your weapons, it will cancel your “knockback”, so you can keep spamming grenades n bombs. The cd is also so low you can use it as finisher and dd.

I sometimes switch the elixier gun for thumper as i mentioned b4. You can stack a ~14 sec stealth for example or burstheal combined with F1 or healing turret activation. If you activate the thumper his explosion finisher on F? counts as 2 finisher, followed by the toolbelt finisher gives you 3, healing turret 4, as you wish shield = 5 * 1300 heal +5k from turret himself is like a “oh kitten”-button insta full health for everyone!

Don’t mind to swap

robertul.3679:

Even if a lot of people love elixir gun it’s useless.

Sorry but you obviously have no clue. All the utility skills aside (heal, condi removal, weakness, cripple, stun break) it is the engineer’s blast finisher with the shortest cooldown:12 sec. if traited (highly recommended) and also has the largest damage multiplier of all engineer skills (6×0.85=5.1)

EG is a swiss army knife combined with a weapon of mass destruction

Ronin.5038:

Shaogin.2679:

Thanks for all the useful info. And yes, my main concern was dealing with random pugs holding me back. Quick question though, I’ve been under the impression that the Bomb Kit out damages the Grenade Kit. And Vuln stacking should be about the same between the two since Bomb 2, 4, and 5 tick Vuln on pulse as well. Is this not right?

Bomb kit does out damage the grenade kit.
Grenade kit is much superior to bomb kit for vulnerability stacking. 3 vulnerability per throw > 1 vulnerability per bomb even when pulsing.

Also, the downside of thumper turret is that it has a long cooldown (50 seconds) which doesn’t match even 100% might duration (40 seconds) while elixir gun can provide the same amount of blast finishers (3) in the time it takes for thumper turret to come off cooldown + you get extra useful skills to go with it. Just got to weigh up your options. Do you want burst stacking might or continuous sustained might? Which one would be better for a pug scenario?

Grenades do more than bombs. The “bombs outDPS grenades” thing was a mistake by people who basically slotted bombs, went “hey my numbers feel bigger than with grenades” without actually testing or analyzing any of it, and starting repeating it on various forums.

Bombs do beat out grenades in DIRECT damage, but the total damage from grenades is higher once you factor in bleed damage. Moreover, if you are not otherwise already capping vuln, the extra vuln you get from the grenades will make up the direct damage difference as well. In practice you will do much more damage with grenades, but it won’t be as obvious because some of it will be condition damage.

The only time you will generally be favoring bombs over grenades is when 1) you’re already capped on vuln AND 2) your team has enough DPS that mobs drop before you can build up any appreciable bleed. If those two conditions aren’t met, favor grenades unless fighting a mob who is immune to conditions..

Why pick one or the other when you can have both?

Bombs also have a larger radius. In the end the damage is pretty even, however grenades toolbelt aswell 2 and 4 are pretty bursty, and 4 adds some good cc wich bombs don’t have without a sacrifice of damage. In the end Mork vom Ork is totally right. Allways pick both. You DO NOT want to use grenades 1. But 2-4 are too good and 5 is sometimes too pretty strong since it stacks up rapid and is a good dps boost against bosses and regen (like cof 1).

The funny sentence up there “elixier gun is useless”. Heh – I smiled

Pugs don’t deal 0 dps. Even with bad gear/traits/rotations. Either troll or average pug war hero going 6 signets. Either way group buff is better than self buff.

Also lol at the guy that says elixir gun is useful because of the cripple. You’re just reading tooltips and throwing words around. Cripple, heal, weakness, stunbreak. To keep the weakness up you must use it constantly because of the short duration. That means you’re useless. Cripple? When was the last time you were in a dungeon and someone said “guys we need more cripple!”?
It’s pretty clear you stopped reading after the part you quoted. Otherwise you wouldn’t relist all the things I said were bad without as much as a counter argument.
A weapon of mass destruction? Because acid bomb might be a minor dps gain compared to grenade auto? While the other skills do almost no damage?

Xyonon.3987:

Bombs also have a larger radius. In the end the damage is pretty even, however grenades toolbelt aswell 2 and 4 are pretty bursty, and 4 adds some good cc wich bombs don’t have without a sacrifice of damage. In the end Mork vom Ork is totally right. Allways pick both. You DO NOT want to use grenades 1. But 2-4 are too good and 5 is sometimes too pretty strong since it stacks up rapid and is a good dps boost against bosses and regen (like cof 1).

The funny sentence up there “elixier gun is useless”. Heh – I smiled

Uh you do want to use Grenades primary, it’s 3 stacks of vuln per toss and one of the overall highest attack speed weapons in the game, meaning you get loads of every proc ever.

Bombs primary is slightly more damage per hit but you’re losing vuln and also setting yourself up for some major headache if your plan is to keep switching between bombs and grenades constantly every time Shrapnel comes off CD.

robertul.3679:

Pugs don’t deal 0 dps. Even with bad gear/traits/rotations. Either troll or average pug war hero going 6 signets. Either way group buff is better than self buff.

Also lol at the guy that says elixir gun is useful because of the cripple. You’re just reading tooltips and throwing words around. Cripple, heal, weakness, stunbreak. To keep the weakness up you must use it constantly because of the short duration. That means you’re useless. Cripple? When was the last time you were in a dungeon and someone said “guys we need more cripple!”?
It’s pretty clear you stopped reading after the part you quoted. Otherwise you wouldn’t relist all the things I said were bad without as much as a counter argument.
A weapon of mass destruction? Because acid bomb might be a minor dps gain compared to grenade auto? While the other skills do almost no damage?

I did not write that EG is useful because of the utility skills. It is useful because of the fastest recharge blast finisher with a ton of damage added. The other stuff just comes as a bonus in just 1 skill slot.
It is also not just a minor dps gain, Acid Bomb deals 5x the damage of grenade auto. Please name a single engineer skill that deals more damage. There is none.

It is better than any turret for combos because of the shorter cooldown and it definitely deals more damage. You can use it with every single HT overcharge and almost every fire bomb (2 s cooldown disparity). You say “Either way group buff is better than self buff.” That’s what EG is for mainly.

Also group condi removal can be very helpful in PUGs. Necros in AC come to mind or Mai Trin with her massive bleed stacking (while being invulnerable too, so damage does not matter until you get her shield down to <4 charges).

And last, Elixir F is great for the Mossman, crippling him, giving your allies swiftness and dealing the same damage as Freeze grenade if it rebounces to him. There’s your “more cripple” application.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Xyonon.3987:

Bombs also have a larger radius. In the end the damage is pretty even, however grenades toolbelt aswell 2 and 4 are pretty bursty, and 4 adds some good cc wich bombs don’t have without a sacrifice of damage. In the end Mork vom Ork is totally right. Allways pick both. You DO NOT want to use grenades 1. But 2-4 are too good and 5 is sometimes too pretty strong since it stacks up rapid and is a good dps boost against bosses and regen (like cof 1).

The funny sentence up there “elixier gun is useless”. Heh – I smiled

Uh you do want to use Grenades primary, it’s 3 stacks of vuln per toss and one of the overall highest attack speed weapons in the game, meaning you get loads of every proc ever.

Bombs primary is slightly more damage per hit but you’re losing vuln and also setting yourself up for some major headache if your plan is to keep switching between bombs and grenades constantly every time Shrapnel comes off CD.

Bombs and grenades have the same attack speed Often engineers seem to think that they are the only ones who can stack vulnerability… Everyone can and if you keep an eye on the vuln stacks you can decide if you wanna deal more damage or more vuln. To be honest – in the end it won’t matter that much. Bombs are just greater if you are surrounded by enemies and grenades if they stack.

To keep switching between bombs n nades doesn’t give me headache, more the opposite! I love it! I really enjoy that fast swapping, to keepup sigil of battle and just for more efficiency. Engi has such a high skillcap and I really love it.

About the elixier gun:

The elixier gun is a superior weapon but the only skills you want to use are 3-5 and rarely 2 just for the looks
Fumigate (3) is one of the best group condi cleanser with almost 0 cd and great range. JUST DO NOT USE AUTO TARGET – pain in the kitten :P
Skill 4 has one of the highest damage of our skills aswell a neat combo finisher. Fire bomb, glue bomb, followed by this is a great buff for the pt since both, bomb and EG4 have almost 0 cd, aswell the damage of it is just legendary. You need 1 sec to set up this field, interrupt yourself with a weaponswap so you cancel the knockback and the time you require for that skill vs the damage it deals = outdamages 100b against 3-5 targets.
Skill 5 is simply a good heal, nothing more to say.

Xyonon.3987:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Xyonon.3987:

Bombs also have a larger radius. In the end the damage is pretty even, however grenades toolbelt aswell 2 and 4 are pretty bursty, and 4 adds some good cc wich bombs don’t have without a sacrifice of damage. In the end Mork vom Ork is totally right. Allways pick both. You DO NOT want to use grenades 1. But 2-4 are too good and 5 is sometimes too pretty strong since it stacks up rapid and is a good dps boost against bosses and regen (like cof 1).

The funny sentence up there “elixier gun is useless”. Heh – I smiled

Uh you do want to use Grenades primary, it’s 3 stacks of vuln per toss and one of the overall highest attack speed weapons in the game, meaning you get loads of every proc ever.

Bombs primary is slightly more damage per hit but you’re losing vuln and also setting yourself up for some major headache if your plan is to keep switching between bombs and grenades constantly every time Shrapnel comes off CD.

Bombs and grenades have the same attack speed Often engineers seem to think that they are the only ones who can stack vulnerability… Everyone can and if you keep an eye on the vuln stacks you can decide if you wanna deal more damage or more vuln. To be honest – in the end it won’t matter that much. Bombs are just greater if you are surrounded by enemies and grenades if they stack.

To keep switching between bombs n nades doesn’t give me headache, more the opposite! I love it! I really enjoy that fast swapping, to keepup sigil of battle and just for more efficiency. Engi has such a high skillcap and I really love it.

---

About the elixier gun:

The elixier gun is a superior weapon but the only skills you want to use are 3-5 and rarely 2 just for the looks
Fumigate (3) is one of the best group condi cleanser with almost 0 cd and great range. JUST DO NOT USE AUTO TARGET – pain in the kitten :P
Skill 4 has one of the highest damage of our skills aswell a neat combo finisher. Fire bomb, glue bomb, followed by this is a great buff for the pt since both, bomb and EG4 have almost 0 cd, aswell the damage of it is just legendary. You need 1 sec to set up this field, interrupt yourself with a weaponswap so you cancel the knockback and the time you require for that skill vs the damage it deals = outdamages 100b against 3-5 targets.
Skill 5 is simply a good heal, nothing more to say.

Bombs fire at a rate of one ever .92 seconds, or about 1.09 attacks per second. Grenades fire at a rate of once every second but you get three hits per grenade, so your attack rate is 3 per second. That’s considerably higher, notwithstanding the additional fact that grenades hit cleanly on the second-mark, which means it’s much better for hitting skills with an ICD since all ICDs are integer seconds. What that means is that if a bomb procs something and it goes on 1s ICD, the next bomb will hit in .92s and thus proc nothing because it’s still on ICD, so you only get one proc every two bombs at most. Compare that to grenades which will proc on every single toss since they’ll hit right as the ICD ends.

Either way vuln is very hard to cap without an engie, you’d really only want to drop the extra vuln stacks if you have multiple grenade engies and are fighting trash (on bosses you’ll probably want two engies due to Defiance reduction). That’s pretty rare considering I almost never see grenade engies, period.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Ronin.5038:

Shaogin.2679:

Thanks for all the useful info. And yes, my main concern was dealing with random pugs holding me back. Quick question though, I’ve been under the impression that the Bomb Kit out damages the Grenade Kit. And Vuln stacking should be about the same between the two since Bomb 2, 4, and 5 tick Vuln on pulse as well. Is this not right?

Bomb kit does out damage the grenade kit.
Grenade kit is much superior to bomb kit for vulnerability stacking. 3 vulnerability per throw > 1 vulnerability per bomb even when pulsing.

Also, the downside of thumper turret is that it has a long cooldown (50 seconds) which doesn’t match even 100% might duration (40 seconds) while elixir gun can provide the same amount of blast finishers (3) in the time it takes for thumper turret to come off cooldown + you get extra useful skills to go with it. Just got to weigh up your options. Do you want burst stacking might or continuous sustained might? Which one would be better for a pug scenario?

Grenades do more than bombs. The “bombs outDPS grenades” thing was a mistake by people who basically slotted bombs, went “hey my numbers feel bigger than with grenades” without actually testing or analyzing any of it, and starting repeating it on various forums.

Bombs do beat out grenades in DIRECT damage, but the total damage from grenades is higher once you factor in bleed damage. Moreover, if you are not otherwise already capping vuln, the extra vuln you get from the grenades will make up the direct damage difference as well. In practice you will do much more damage with grenades, but it won’t be as obvious because some of it will be condition damage.

The only time you will generally be favoring bombs over grenades is when 1) you’re already capped on vuln AND 2) your team has enough DPS that mobs drop before you can build up any appreciable bleed. If those two conditions aren’t met, favor grenades unless fighting a mob who is immune to conditions..

Even with the bleed stacks, bombs do more damage. This is based off their higher attack speed AND higher power coefficient. And then there is burning and confusion in the mix.

Grenades are to be used if, and only if, your group cannot maintain 25 vulnerability. It also helps if you’re doing something like Frawley Shaman in FOTM and need the range.

At the end of the day, both options are fine. Use what you like.

Edit: On my autocorrecting tablet at work. Frawley = Grawl. Leaving it there because it amuses me.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Ronin.5038:

Shaogin.2679:

Thanks for all the useful info. And yes, my main concern was dealing with random pugs holding me back. Quick question though, I’ve been under the impression that the Bomb Kit out damages the Grenade Kit. And Vuln stacking should be about the same between the two since Bomb 2, 4, and 5 tick Vuln on pulse as well. Is this not right?

Bomb kit does out damage the grenade kit.
Grenade kit is much superior to bomb kit for vulnerability stacking. 3 vulnerability per throw > 1 vulnerability per bomb even when pulsing.

Also, the downside of thumper turret is that it has a long cooldown (50 seconds) which doesn’t match even 100% might duration (40 seconds) while elixir gun can provide the same amount of blast finishers (3) in the time it takes for thumper turret to come off cooldown + you get extra useful skills to go with it. Just got to weigh up your options. Do you want burst stacking might or continuous sustained might? Which one would be better for a pug scenario?

Grenades do more than bombs. The “bombs outDPS grenades” thing was a mistake by people who basically slotted bombs, went “hey my numbers feel bigger than with grenades” without actually testing or analyzing any of it, and starting repeating it on various forums.

Bombs do beat out grenades in DIRECT damage, but the total damage from grenades is higher once you factor in bleed damage. Moreover, if you are not otherwise already capping vuln, the extra vuln you get from the grenades will make up the direct damage difference as well. In practice you will do much more damage with grenades, but it won’t be as obvious because some of it will be condition damage.

The only time you will generally be favoring bombs over grenades is when 1) you’re already capped on vuln AND 2) your team has enough DPS that mobs drop before you can build up any appreciable bleed. If those two conditions aren’t met, favor grenades unless fighting a mob who is immune to conditions..

Even with the bleed stacks, bombs do more damage. This is based off their higher attack speed AND higher power coefficient. And then there is burning and confusion in the mix.

Grenades are to be used if, and only if, your group cannot maintain 25 vulnerability. It also helps if you’re doing something like Frawley Shaman in FOTM and need the range.

At the end of the day, both options are fine. Use what you like.

Edit: On my autocorrecting tablet at work. Frawley = Grawl. Leaving it there because it amuses me.

Grenades do more, including bleed stacks, precisely because of said bleed stacks, as the bleed is pretty significant. That’s also completely disregarding the extra 10 or so stacks of vuln you’re getting from the grenades pushing their direct DPS up even higher.

Right now the warrior meta is to give up your offhand entirely just so you can take Rending Strikes for an extra 3 stacks of vuln, lots of classes would kill for a weapon that stacks 20 vuln by itself without any DPS loss. Running bombs basically ruins the main sell of the engineer.

If everything works perfect, and all the enemies hug themselves on the same small spot, grenades deal DEFINITLY more dmg than bombs. Bringing in the argument of the confusion bomb increases your dps made me smile actually

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Phineas Poe.3018:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Ronin.5038:

Shaogin.2679:

Thanks for all the useful info. And yes, my main concern was dealing with random pugs holding me back. Quick question though, I’ve been under the impression that the Bomb Kit out damages the Grenade Kit. And Vuln stacking should be about the same between the two since Bomb 2, 4, and 5 tick Vuln on pulse as well. Is this not right?

Bomb kit does out damage the grenade kit.
Grenade kit is much superior to bomb kit for vulnerability stacking. 3 vulnerability per throw > 1 vulnerability per bomb even when pulsing.

Also, the downside of thumper turret is that it has a long cooldown (50 seconds) which doesn’t match even 100% might duration (40 seconds) while elixir gun can provide the same amount of blast finishers (3) in the time it takes for thumper turret to come off cooldown + you get extra useful skills to go with it. Just got to weigh up your options. Do you want burst stacking might or continuous sustained might? Which one would be better for a pug scenario?

Grenades do more than bombs. The “bombs outDPS grenades” thing was a mistake by people who basically slotted bombs, went “hey my numbers feel bigger than with grenades” without actually testing or analyzing any of it, and starting repeating it on various forums.

Bombs do beat out grenades in DIRECT damage, but the total damage from grenades is higher once you factor in bleed damage. Moreover, if you are not otherwise already capping vuln, the extra vuln you get from the grenades will make up the direct damage difference as well. In practice you will do much more damage with grenades, but it won’t be as obvious because some of it will be condition damage.

The only time you will generally be favoring bombs over grenades is when 1) you’re already capped on vuln AND 2) your team has enough DPS that mobs drop before you can build up any appreciable bleed. If those two conditions aren’t met, favor grenades unless fighting a mob who is immune to conditions..

Even with the bleed stacks, bombs do more damage. This is based off their higher attack speed AND higher power coefficient. And then there is burning and confusion in the mix.

Grenades are to be used if, and only if, your group cannot maintain 25 vulnerability. It also helps if you’re doing something like Frawley Shaman in FOTM and need the range.

At the end of the day, both options are fine. Use what you like.

Edit: On my autocorrecting tablet at work. Frawley = Grawl. Leaving it there because it amuses me.

Grenades do more, including bleed stacks, precisely because of said bleed stacks, as the bleed is pretty significant. That’s also completely disregarding the extra 10 or so stacks of vuln you’re getting from the grenades pushing their direct DPS up even higher.

Right now the warrior meta is to give up your offhand entirely just so you can take Rending Strikes for an extra 3 stacks of vuln, lots of classes would kill for a weapon that stacks 20 vuln by itself without any DPS loss. Running bombs basically ruins the main sell of the engineer.

Care to show me ur maths??

Good luck capping 25 vuln without fgs or a grenade engi. And not for a few secs to push a fancy feedback but for the whole fight.

Krisstina.7238:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Phineas Poe.3018:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Ronin.5038:

Shaogin.2679:

Thanks for all the useful info. And yes, my main concern was dealing with random pugs holding me back. Quick question though, I’ve been under the impression that the Bomb Kit out damages the Grenade Kit. And Vuln stacking should be about the same between the two since Bomb 2, 4, and 5 tick Vuln on pulse as well. Is this not right?

Bomb kit does out damage the grenade kit.
Grenade kit is much superior to bomb kit for vulnerability stacking. 3 vulnerability per throw > 1 vulnerability per bomb even when pulsing.

Also, the downside of thumper turret is that it has a long cooldown (50 seconds) which doesn’t match even 100% might duration (40 seconds) while elixir gun can provide the same amount of blast finishers (3) in the time it takes for thumper turret to come off cooldown + you get extra useful skills to go with it. Just got to weigh up your options. Do you want burst stacking might or continuous sustained might? Which one would be better for a pug scenario?

Grenades do more than bombs. The “bombs outDPS grenades” thing was a mistake by people who basically slotted bombs, went “hey my numbers feel bigger than with grenades” without actually testing or analyzing any of it, and starting repeating it on various forums.

Bombs do beat out grenades in DIRECT damage, but the total damage from grenades is higher once you factor in bleed damage. Moreover, if you are not otherwise already capping vuln, the extra vuln you get from the grenades will make up the direct damage difference as well. In practice you will do much more damage with grenades, but it won’t be as obvious because some of it will be condition damage.

The only time you will generally be favoring bombs over grenades is when 1) you’re already capped on vuln AND 2) your team has enough DPS that mobs drop before you can build up any appreciable bleed. If those two conditions aren’t met, favor grenades unless fighting a mob who is immune to conditions..

Even with the bleed stacks, bombs do more damage. This is based off their higher attack speed AND higher power coefficient. And then there is burning and confusion in the mix.

Grenades are to be used if, and only if, your group cannot maintain 25 vulnerability. It also helps if you’re doing something like Frawley Shaman in FOTM and need the range.

At the end of the day, both options are fine. Use what you like.

Edit: On my autocorrecting tablet at work. Frawley = Grawl. Leaving it there because it amuses me.

Grenades do more, including bleed stacks, precisely because of said bleed stacks, as the bleed is pretty significant. That’s also completely disregarding the extra 10 or so stacks of vuln you’re getting from the grenades pushing their direct DPS up even higher.

Right now the warrior meta is to give up your offhand entirely just so you can take Rending Strikes for an extra 3 stacks of vuln, lots of classes would kill for a weapon that stacks 20 vuln by itself without any DPS loss. Running bombs basically ruins the main sell of the engineer.

Care to show me ur maths??

http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/91678-post-april-2014-patch-dps-calculations/

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Krisstina.7238:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Phineas Poe.3018:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Ronin.5038:

Shaogin.2679:

Thanks for all the useful info. And yes, my main concern was dealing with random pugs holding me back. Quick question though, I’ve been under the impression that the Bomb Kit out damages the Grenade Kit. And Vuln stacking should be about the same between the two since Bomb 2, 4, and 5 tick Vuln on pulse as well. Is this not right?

Bomb kit does out damage the grenade kit.
Grenade kit is much superior to bomb kit for vulnerability stacking. 3 vulnerability per throw > 1 vulnerability per bomb even when pulsing.

Also, the downside of thumper turret is that it has a long cooldown (50 seconds) which doesn’t match even 100% might duration (40 seconds) while elixir gun can provide the same amount of blast finishers (3) in the time it takes for thumper turret to come off cooldown + you get extra useful skills to go with it. Just got to weigh up your options. Do you want burst stacking might or continuous sustained might? Which one would be better for a pug scenario?

Grenades do more than bombs. The “bombs outDPS grenades” thing was a mistake by people who basically slotted bombs, went “hey my numbers feel bigger than with grenades” without actually testing or analyzing any of it, and starting repeating it on various forums.

Bombs do beat out grenades in DIRECT damage, but the total damage from grenades is higher once you factor in bleed damage. Moreover, if you are not otherwise already capping vuln, the extra vuln you get from the grenades will make up the direct damage difference as well. In practice you will do much more damage with grenades, but it won’t be as obvious because some of it will be condition damage.

The only time you will generally be favoring bombs over grenades is when 1) you’re already capped on vuln AND 2) your team has enough DPS that mobs drop before you can build up any appreciable bleed. If those two conditions aren’t met, favor grenades unless fighting a mob who is immune to conditions..

Even with the bleed stacks, bombs do more damage. This is based off their higher attack speed AND higher power coefficient. And then there is burning and confusion in the mix.

Grenades are to be used if, and only if, your group cannot maintain 25 vulnerability. It also helps if you’re doing something like Frawley Shaman in FOTM and need the range.

At the end of the day, both options are fine. Use what you like.

Edit: On my autocorrecting tablet at work. Frawley = Grawl. Leaving it there because it amuses me.

Grenades do more, including bleed stacks, precisely because of said bleed stacks, as the bleed is pretty significant. That’s also completely disregarding the extra 10 or so stacks of vuln you’re getting from the grenades pushing their direct DPS up even higher.

Right now the warrior meta is to give up your offhand entirely just so you can take Rending Strikes for an extra 3 stacks of vuln, lots of classes would kill for a weapon that stacks 20 vuln by itself without any DPS loss. Running bombs basically ruins the main sell of the engineer.

Care to show me ur maths??

http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/91678-post-april-2014-patch-dps-calculations/

I guess Krisstina wanted to see the calculations these numbers are based on (and so do I), not just your results. Could you post a link to the template or spread sheet you were using? I’m a bit of a number cruncher myself so it would be really interesting to see someone else’s approach to this.

PS: Partially reverse engineering your results for the damage increase in the bottom part of your post (direct damage +212%, condi damage +84%) results in rifle/bombs coming out on top with 13556 direct + 635 bleed = 14191 total.

Xyonon.3987:

Bringing in the argument of the confusion bomb increases your dps made me smile actually

There are many boss fights in this game, including Lupicus, where confusion is a huge increase in damage—a lot more than Shrapnel Grenade would be in the same circumstances.

It’s just a matter of timing it with telegraphed multi-hit attacks.

RE: your claim that grenade kit is “definitely” more DPS, it simply isn’t. Freeze Grenade and Shrapnel Grenade both dish out more DPS, but over time the higher coefficient auto-attack of the bomb kit pulls ahead with the help of its higher attack speed (67 bombs per minute versus 60 volleys).

And speaking of conditions, it’s just a poor debate all around. Bosses cleanse conditions regularly, and all that bleed damage you’re taking into consideration has quite a bit of ramp up time. And during events like Tequatl and Wurm, the bleed cap is already being reached.

The grenade kit is king at one thing: stacking vulnerability. If your group can’t reach 25 without it, then use it. If they can, then swap to the bomb kit. Or just don’t worry about it, because they’re both good options.

This argument is a waste of time.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

That’s also completely disregarding the extra 10 or so stacks of vuln you’re getting from the grenades pushing their direct DPS up even higher.

Because it’s not like those 10 stacks can’t come from anyone else. It’s really kind of mind-boggling that you would even argue this. I run on my guardian and warrior regularly in dungeons and fractals and we’re constantly hitting 25 vulnerability even without an engineer in the group.

Like an elementalist with might stacking, we’re definitely best at providing vulnerability, but we’re not the only route to achieving max stacks.

The passive damage of the grenades outdamages the ~25% higher bomb aa damage aslong as you won’t overstack wich is nearly impossible when you simply can switch bufffood from 40% condi duration to power/prec stuff. Against bosses you can go +40% condi dur and won’t perma reach the cap.

If everyone deals 3k dps wich is laughtable low, but just an example, and you deals 3x 1k grenades instead of 1x 4k bombs you already outdamaged the bombs:
even 1 stack vulnerability for 10 sec would result into a damage boost of 1200 for your allies. ONE stack for ONLY 10 sec.

Vulns 25> = Grenades dps > Bomb dps. It’s a simple fact. Party dps > personal empty D dps …

Still, keep in mind that bomb 1 has a larger radius if enemies are kinda splittet, rather surrounding you than stacking somewhere.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

That’s also completely disregarding the extra 10 or so stacks of vuln you’re getting from the grenades pushing their direct DPS up even higher.

Because it’s not like those 10 stacks can’t come from anyone else. It’s really kind of mind-boggling that you would even argue this. I run on my guardian and warrior regularly in dungeons and fractals and we’re constantly hitting 25 vulnerability even without an engineer in the group.

Like an elementalist with might stacking, we’re definitely best at providing vulnerability, but we’re not the only route to achieving max stacks.

The others are supposed to already chip in 10 stacks of vuln. Also this is about dungeon bosses not tequatl. Also, cause I am sure you will mention it, on the rare situation the target is a structure bombs are better there obviously.
But back to most parts of most dungeons.
When you run on your guardian you don’t use wall because elementalists can reflect with staff and mitigate with focus? And use it ONLY if there is no other possible way?
Saying others should cap vuln while you as engi are the best to help make this happen is like an ele not might stacking because the other 4 surely can make a firefield and some blasts between them.
And no, a boss that is not mashed with fgs will not have vuln capped too long. With fiery rush blinks nerfed people struggle with corner unfriendly bosses and there are discussions around exactly vuln caps which are harder to achieve.
But lets think about non boss mobs. Well even there the sooner you cap vuln the faster they die. While in most groups it takes a bit and they usually die before a normal group caps it engi can press like 2-3 autos and it’s done.
Most important thing this is about pugs.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

That’s also completely disregarding the extra 10 or so stacks of vuln you’re getting from the grenades pushing their direct DPS up even higher.

Because it’s not like those 10 stacks can’t come from anyone else. It’s really kind of mind-boggling that you would even argue this. I run on my guardian and warrior regularly in dungeons and fractals and we’re constantly hitting 25 vulnerability even without an engineer in the group.

Like an elementalist with might stacking, we’re definitely best at providing vulnerability, but we’re not the only route to achieving max stacks.

Warriors provide, like, 3 stacks with Rending Strikes and an extra 1-2 stacks on average if they’re camping GS. If a Guardian is running hammer, he can maintain maybe 3-5 stacks tops. Mesmer sword auto is 4 stacks. Ranger feline pet gives about 3 stacks. That puts you, at max, around 20 stacks provided everyone is actually stacking vuln and not running hurrPVT tankspec. You will note that’s not even halfway to what you need to cap vuln on a boss. Even with a condition-duration specced engie spamming grenades on a boss you’re only going to get 10-15 stacks, which means that generally you WILL NOT cap vuln even with a grenade engie.

Since the grenade spec still carries bombs and shares the same traits, it’s not too hard to just switch to bombs specifically for trash where your party is capping vuln. At worst you lose Forceful Explosives and one utility for said fights.

Xyonon.3987:

Party dps > personal empty D dps …

So running the bomb kit is “selfish” now?

You say this like the bomb kit isn’t a weapon that stacks might as well as vulnerability.

robertul.3679:

Saying others should cap vuln while you as engi are the best to help make this happen is like an ele not might stacking because the other 4 surely can make a firefield and some blasts between them.

And yet staff elementalist is a meta build.

In a pug group, the grenade kit is better DPS if the group cannot reach 25 vulnerability. But if they can, the bomb kit is better. Bleed stacking or not, it’s simply the truth. It’s not hard to figure out that the additional 6-8 bombs per minute (plus 400+ DPS burning) cancels out the damage from additional stacks of bleeding.

I’m also just making the point that while number crunching maximum DPS is good to a point, there’s absolutely nothing wrong with running a pure bomb spec. I’m kind of blown away that for pugging dungeons, which are almost never ideal or optimally structured we’re arguing over a difference of about 300 DPS.

They’re both viable DPS options and contribute plenty to a group. Just so long as you’re not doing something stupid like main-handing the elixir gun or tool kit.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Xyonon.3987:

Party dps > personal empty D dps …

So running the bomb kit is “selfish” now?

You say this like the bomb kit isn’t a weapon that stacks might as well as vulnerability.

Nope, not the whole kit. Just the wrong skill in the wrong situation. The whole thread long I’m saying that both bombs and grenades are awesome, and I almost NEVER miss one of those kits in my utility bar!

But I’m saying that grenade 1 is better if enemies are stacked tight and bomb 1 are better if they are surrounding you. If you spam bomb 1 against a single boss instead of grenade 1 then yes, you are selfish and will se higher nubers while dealing less damage.

However, the CD’s are so low, you anyway can almost allways spam other stuff than 1. But if you spam 1, do the right one.

Xyonon.3987:

But if you spam 1, do the right one.

You’re making me rip my hair out.

Grenade is a 99% coefficient with a ~1 second attack rate.
Bomb is a 125% coefficient with a .92 second attack rate.

So not only does the grenade “auto-attack” strike for less damage, but it’s significantly slower.

If you’re going to spam an auto-attack, it should be with bombs, not grenades. It doesn’t matter how they’re stacked. Bomb is a significantly more powerful auto-attack.

I’ve agreed all from the beginning that if 25 vulnerability is your objective, that grenades are better. But if dishing out raw DPS is your objective, especially if you can reach 25 vulnerability with the bomb kit, it’s superior DPS. All the time. Stacked or surrounded.

Wow, came back to check out this thread, and apparently I started some heated discussion. I read through it all though, seems to be a huge debate between Grenade Kit and Bomb Kit. And I can’t believe I completely forgot that of course Grenade Kit is better for Vuln stacking due to each attack being 3 hits. Silly me. But this brings up another question for me. The Grenade Kit stacks more Vuln, but lacks a fire field and blast finisher. So is it better to hit the 25 Vuln cap, or fall short of the cap but in return supply Might stacks to the group.

Also, if you run both Bomb and Grenade kits, would you be hurting yourself any? Such as less utilities you can bring, less blast finishers etc.

If you like to play the engineer piano (once you get addicted, the other classes feel so slow and boring), the 3 kit build can handle ~90% of group content very well, has all the important fields and the highest sustained DPS.
Grenades, Bombs and Elixir Gun with Healing Turret. Mix it with a rifle for higher dps or with pistol/shield for some more defense and an extra blast finisher. 6/6/0/x/x for traits.

Shaogin.2679:

Wow, came back to check out this thread, and apparently I started some heated discussion. I read through it all though, seems to be a huge debate between Grenade Kit and Bomb Kit. And I can’t believe I completely forgot that of course Grenade Kit is better for Vuln stacking due to each attack being 3 hits. Silly me. But this brings up another question for me. The Grenade Kit stacks more Vuln, but lacks a fire field and blast finisher. So is it better to hit the 25 Vuln cap, or fall short of the cap but in return supply Might stacks to the group.

Also, if you run both Bomb and Grenade kits, would you be hurting yourself any? Such as less utilities you can bring, less blast finishers etc.

Might stacking should probably be your first priority.

Running both bombs and grenades would be better than only using one.

Ronin.5038:

Shaogin.2679:

Wow, came back to check out this thread, and apparently I started some heated discussion. I read through it all though, seems to be a huge debate between Grenade Kit and Bomb Kit. And I can’t believe I completely forgot that of course Grenade Kit is better for Vuln stacking due to each attack being 3 hits. Silly me. But this brings up another question for me. The Grenade Kit stacks more Vuln, but lacks a fire field and blast finisher. So is it better to hit the 25 Vuln cap, or fall short of the cap but in return supply Might stacks to the group.

Also, if you run both Bomb and Grenade kits, would you be hurting yourself any? Such as less utilities you can bring, less blast finishers etc.

Might stacking should probably be your first priority.

Running both bombs and grenades would be better than only using one.

Pretty much any class can stack a fair amount of might, especially with Runes of Strength being so good now. Engineer is the only class capable of stacking sustained levels of vuln. Keep in mind that not only do most classes have limited vuln-stacking abilities, the vuln cap is effectively much higher due to Defiant. To keep 25 stacks of vuln on a boss at all times, your group would have to be able to sustain 50 stacks of vuln on average. Some classes can burst to 25 vuln on a boss for about 5 seconds or less (i.e. warrior with A/M and OMM). It works for boss bursting but your damage will slow down considerably after the first few seconds if your group can’t pull off a kill in that time.

Also “bombs attack faster” is hilarious when you consider that grenades hit three times per attack.

As guang said might is easier to come by than vuln and no defiant buff can interfere. Only pug guardian light fields.
So your primary focus is stacking vuln. Then might. Luckily you stack vuln by just attacking so it is better to build around that.
Not sure if sneaking a sigil of malice to compensate for the giver weapon loss is worth it or not. Or if running like a berserker ascended pistol and a giver shield with malice. I still am not sure that kits actually scale with weapon rarity and more importantly, if they scale with mainhand you can profit from that because the stat gain doesn’t seem so huge.

What? Perhaps I worded that wrong or wasn’t detailed enough.
Stacking might just before a fight is better than stacking vulnerability during a fight then stacking might.
It’s also much less frustrating, what with pug random field spam throughout fights.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Xyonon.3987:

But if you spam 1, do the right one.

You’re making me rip my hair out.

Grenade is a 99% coefficient with a ~1 second attack rate.
Bomb is a 125% coefficient with a .92 second attack rate.

So not only does the grenade “auto-attack” strike for less damage, but it’s significantly slower.

If you’re going to spam an auto-attack, it should be with bombs, not grenades. It doesn’t matter how they’re stacked. Bomb is a significantly more powerful auto-attack.

I’ve agreed all from the beginning that if 25 vulnerability is your objective, that grenades are better. But if dishing out raw DPS is your objective, especially if you can reach 25 vulnerability with the bomb kit, it’s superior DPS. All the time. Stacked or surrounded.

If I read this and my engineer would rip his hairs out aswell, god he would be a balt charr …

• bombs hit for 25% more damage and have much larger radius indeed
• 8,7% faster attack speed isn’t “significant”, rather “slightly”
• the grenades are able to sustain much more vuln, I tell you that again, cuz I think you pretty much forgot it or just ignore it …
• bomb auto attack on a 23-25 stacks vuln enemy deals less group damage than a grenades auto attack on a perma 25 stacks vuln enemy. (example)
• buffed party: bombs hit about 6k, grenades 4.5k. Looks good eh? A buffed party single target dps is able to get up to 50k, in a bad case at least 30k. 1% of 30k are an increase of 3k per sec you deal passive. So a bomb aa hits for 6k, grenades 8k. And thats just 1%… Passive damage exist, deal with it. If you want personal high nubers keep spamming bomb 1.
• Leaving the message that grenade 1 is stronger in general, makes you to wanna use them over bomb 1. There is almost never a case where you can sustain 25 stacks without drops just with bombs
• however if mobs aren’t all stacked at the same place, the wide radius of the bomb aa is much stronger. it does matter how they are sacked

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Also “bombs attack faster” is hilarious when you consider that grenades hit three times per attack.

Mork vom Ork.2598:

If you like to play the engineer piano (once you get addicted, the other classes feel so slow and boring), the 3 kit build can handle ~90% of group content very well, has all the important fields and the highest sustained DPS.
Grenades, Bombs and Elixir Gun with Healing Turret. Mix it with a rifle for higher dps or with pistol/shield for some more defense and an extra blast finisher. 6/6/0/x/x for traits.

this

Xyonon.3987:

Phineas Poe.3018:

I’ve agreed all from the beginning that if 25 vulnerability is your objective, that grenades are better.

• the grenades are able to sustain much more vuln, I tell you that again, cuz I think you pretty much forgot it or just ignore it …

Yeah I must have.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Also “bombs attack faster” is hilarious when you consider that grenades hit three times per attack.

Why is it hilarous? It’s the truth. Yes there’s 3 grenades per volley, but it’s only at a 33% coefficient each.

I just don’t understand this argument. Most bosses since the ferocity overhaul melt in seconds with the FGS. Stacking 25 vulnerability just doesn’t really matter anymore; most trash and bosses die long before you even hit 25.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Also “bombs attack faster” is hilarious when you consider that grenades hit three times per attack.

Why is it hilarous? It’s the truth. Yes there’s 3 grenades per volley, but it’s only at a 33% coefficient each.

I just don’t understand this argument. Most bosses since the ferocity overhaul melt in seconds with the FGS. Stacking 25 vulnerability just doesn’t really matter anymore; most trash and bosses die long before you even hit 25.

Because a hit is a hit regardless of how much damage it deals. This isn’t Diablo where each skill has a proc coefficient as well as a damage one.

Grenades hitting approx. 3x faster means:

1) 3x as likely to proc Shrapnel, Sharpshooter, Precise Sights, etc.
2) 3x as much vuln from Steel-Packed Powder
3) 3x as likely to proc lifesteal from food or other sigil effects.

You can overstate bomb coefficients all you want but actual math shows that grenades clearly do more, even putting the vuln aside and counting ONLY the raw direct and bleed damage.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Also “bombs attack faster” is hilarious when you consider that grenades hit three times per attack.

Why is it hilarous? It’s the truth. Yes there’s 3 grenades per volley, but it’s only at a 33% coefficient each.

I just don’t understand this argument. Most bosses since the ferocity overhaul melt in seconds with the FGS. Stacking 25 vulnerability just doesn’t really matter anymore; most trash and bosses die long before you even hit 25.

It’s about the vulnerability stacks wich increase the damage better than bombs do. You say “most trash and bosses die long before you even hit 25”. Yea IF you are using bombs only.

If you stack 25x vuln right at the beginning, the damage is already high when you start the fight, where most ppl use their long or medium cd burst skills. FGS deals much more damage if it attacks an already 25 stacked enemy, same goes for 100b, backstab, etc.

I don’t say do not use bombs, but I say use bombs AND grenades wisely. And I say that if you manage to hit all enemies with grenades, grenade 1 > bomb 1 IF there aren’t permanently 25 stacks vuln on the enemies.