Guild Wars 2

From today’s patch notes:

Bombs: Increased the radius of bomb skills with a radius of 180 to 240. This change includes bombs created by the traits Evasive Powder Keg and Autodefense Bomb Dispenser.

You guys think this is enough to get it play in PvP? Gonna mess around with it today with both Firearms and Explosives; I hope it works.

Yas! About time. Now we just need a magnet pull fix.

This is a step in the right direction. All we need now are some healing bombs back, and then I will just about be sold on playing engi again. Just for the record, Autodefense Bomb Dipsenser is a piece of trash skill that should be replaced with something far more useful. Something such as Deployable Turrets or something.

i think healing bombs has always been a bad trait. I really don’t miss it but i prefer actual bunker down , so please no healing bombs again …

Still irks me that Smoke Bomb’s blind is every two seconds for three pulses, while Flash Shell is every second for five/seven pulses.

But hey, they got the radius fix! Also I’m unsure if it might cause problems to someone since it isn’t noticeable, but testing with the PvP dummies, the ‘out-of-range’ indicator showed on skills 1~3 while being at 240 range (Smoke Bomb could blind the golems). Unsure if this just happens when barely in range or the indicator/autoattack still calculates as if it had 180 range.

PierPiero.9142:

i think healing bombs has always been a bad trait. I really don’t miss it but i prefer actual bunker down , so please no healing bombs again …

Healing bombs was a skill that was used by engis who did medium dps and yet wanted to heal people in the crowd without the use of those lame waterfields that take forever to recharge. Bunker down, while in some cases may be ok, I haven’t seen to do a significant amount of damage enough to make a real difference in combat. If it did full bomb damage, I would be all on board with it, but since it only damages about as much as mines, I don’t find it very useful. If you are having trouble with thieves and mesmers you should probably go for the utility goggles that break you free from thief basilisk venom and render them unstealthed for 6 seconds. For the mesmer you just time the person right to render them unstealthed.

PierPiero.9142:

i think healing bombs has always been a bad trait. I really don’t miss it but i prefer actual bunker down , so please no healing bombs again …

Agreed. It was a cute trait to use whilst playing around, but at the end of the day, you were essentially giving up DPS to provide substandard healing.

Autodefense Bomb Dispenser really should go though.

lorddarkflare.9186:

PierPiero.9142:

i think healing bombs has always been a bad trait. I really don’t miss it but i prefer actual bunker down , so please no healing bombs again …

Agreed. It was a cute trait to use whilst playing around, but at the end of the day, you were essentially giving up DPS to provide substandard healing.

Autodefense Bomb Dispenser really should go though.

Then what is wrong with bringing it back in place of one of the “healing” traits that as far as I am aware of, no one uses? I would rather have what you consider subpar healing with a kit I use, then even less healing and su par damage on bunker down.

coglin.1867:

lorddarkflare.9186:

PierPiero.9142:

i think healing bombs has always been a bad trait. I really don’t miss it but i prefer actual bunker down , so please no healing bombs again …

Agreed. It was a cute trait to use whilst playing around, but at the end of the day, you were essentially giving up DPS to provide substandard healing.

Autodefense Bomb Dispenser really should go though.

Then what is wrong with bringing it back in place of one of the “healing” traits that as far as I am aware of, no one uses? I would rather have what you consider subpar healing with a kit I use, then even less healing and su par damage on bunker down.

The issue I have with Exilir-Infused bomb is that it required we camp bomb in order to be even somewhat effective.

Bunker Down is good—not great—because it triggers regardless of what you are doing.

I would much rather a decently buffed Bunker Down and/or a replacement of Soothing Detonations and Autodefense Bomb Dispenser with better support traits.

No lol. The explosives line is not suited for bomb builds and you need to give up all positioning to use this offensive kit on a class where positioning is extremely important in a meta where you can get bursted down in 2 seconds by classes tankier than you are!

Wahoo! Bye frands!

Okay, I just did four matches with this build. I won every one, and defeated a lot of Celestial elementalists and burn guardians in the process.

I think this kit might be worth giving a shot, guys. Gonna keep messing with it this week, but it was a definite nice change-up.

Agree with mr Wahoo. I used to use bombs offensively and initiate close range encounters, now we just don’t have the chops for that sort of work. Bombs are relegated to the Oh crap situation or when really noone is paying attention to you in a big mele (and you’ll still probably die from incidental conditions). Also explosives is just too balanced on the thought of 3 gernades being thrown to be very effective on singular bombs. I just can’t see this being an effective kit anymore and I’m very sad about it. They’ve essentially taken my favourite play style of the engineer from me.

That was identical to my old build (skill wise) pre HOT changes. Now I run this build but with flame thrower kit.

I will give it a shot, I guess you loose firearms (but you’d die to quick without the inventions line). You took the trait to increase rifle rate over say the fury skill? I suppose if your up close switching to blunderbus and jumpshot more often makes up for the fury is what your thinking.

shion.2084:

That was identical to my old build (skill wise) pre HOT changes. Now I run this build but with flame thrower kit.

I will give it a shot, I guess you loose firearms (but you’d die to quick without the inventions line). You took the trait to increase rifle rate over say the fury skill? I suppose if your up close switching to blunderbus and jumpshot more often makes up for the fury is what your thinking.

Lose Firearms? I think Firearms works better with the Bomb Kit than Explosives does. Unless that’s just a typo and that’s what you meant.

As for the rifle trait, that was something that I was torn about. I am really just testing to see which is really a better overall option, as I am not really sure (still) whether or not the Bomb Kit can be safely used as a mainstay kit option or if it’s a matter of dropping Fire Bomb and Concussion Bomb and backing off with rifle auto.

If it can be used, then No Scope is clearly better. But if I am spending more than 50% of my time at range with the rifle, jumping in to burst with Fire Bomb and Jump Shot, then No Scope isn’t quite as good.

This would also affect whether Backpack Regenerator or Self-Regulating Defenses is better for this build.

Honestly, the patch is just a couple hours old so a lot of this is tentative and knee jerk. After some of my guildies get on and I get in some real 1v1s with the build, I’ll be sure and update thoughts.

Thought about mortar to add some long range AOE pressure, or to even drop at your own feet (along with the toolbelt skill)?

I have a feeling this build will have particular trouble against rangers.

Incidentally how well do bombs work against shatter mes?

What we need is another trait in the adept explosive slot for bombs to be worth using above nades. Same goes for Grandmaster, but not as badly needed.

They will still be suboptimal cuz of the minors, but the adept should atleast partially compensate for it.

Did you consider substitues for generosity? I’ve never really made good use of that one, how valuable do you find it in a build with alchemy to help manage your condis?

GrandHaven.1052:

What we need is another trait in the adept explosive slot for bombs to be worth using above nades. Same goes for Grandmaster, but not as badly needed.

They will still be suboptimal cuz of the minors, but the adept should atleast partially compensate for it.

Disagree. I think nades need to be nerfed to the ground and rifle, pistol, bomb and flamethrower adjusted to fill the space.

Grenades have had a deathgrip on our builds since release and it really needs to stop.

lorddarkflare.9186:

Disagree. I think nades need to be nerfed to the ground and rifle, pistol, bomb and flamethrower adjusted to fill the space.

Grenades have had a deathgrip on our builds since release and it really needs to stop.

I don’t want to lose nades but I have always like bombs because they have the combo fields and added utility. THAT identity is really cool and was perfectly viable pre23rd.
After that though that identity vanished and bombs became a terrible and unreliable pick that its smoke, fire and immob/cripple could never make up for.

Why take AWAY diversity?
Give bombs some love and some people will run it just for the flavour and the extra utility.

A small range increase does not make up for the fact that you are totally vulnerable in the middle of a fight with bombs.

This does nothing to solve the problems Engineer currently faces. I am glad they fixed it but we are still SOL as far as professions are concerned. Once they nerf Ele and Mes we can talk about viable builds again. As it is now, Engi just doesn’t cut it. Alchemy is far and away the best line and is mandatory, Firearms is almost mandatory on power or condi, Tools is OK but the best GM trait breaks the minor (wtf), Inventions is just bad Alchemy and Explosives is 100% trash. Forge better bring some serious buffs.

Also, what about all the utilities that are totally useless right now?!?! Gadgets are total junk and so are Turrets (other than HT).

anet thanks for the bomb radius again at 240

for healing bombs, consider if that “Soothing Detonation”
When you trigger a combo using a blast finisher, allies near the effect are healed.

isnt only for allies but for engineer + 4 allies. then its much better than healing bombs.

i think explosives is much better with bombs-mortar or nades-mortar (i usually wvw) bombs-rb-eg – mortar or crate depends – but the pressure with explosives and bombs – in melee is nice – especially if with evasive powder keg that is a blast… so healing – might – etc etc

bombs can be used defensively (stack might – stealth) as offensively (54321) – or in disengaging (escaping) dropping 32415 if someone is next to you

and with vulnerability they have the pressure if 5 targets or more are on u – someone will die in that group

firearms-alchemy/inventions – tools is perfect for condition-hybrid builds-power – in pvp (a nice burst of bleeding – critical hit – incendiary powder on critical – basically in a 1 vs 2-3 at the most (this is ofc my opinion)

but explosives and mortar => gain a ton of damage – vuln aoe in wvw fights

displacedTitan.6897:

A small range increase does not make up for the fact that you are totally vulnerable in the middle of a fight with bombs.

This does nothing to solve the problems Engineer currently faces. I am glad they fixed it but we are still SOL as far as professions are concerned. Once they nerf Ele and Mes we can talk about viable builds again. As it is now, Engi just doesn’t cut it. Alchemy is far and away the best line and is mandatory, Firearms is almost mandatory on power or condi, Tools is OK but the best GM trait breaks the minor (wtf), Inventions is just bad Alchemy and Explosives is 100% trash. Forge better bring some serious buffs.

Also, what about all the utilities that are totally useless right now?!?! Gadgets are total junk and so are Turrets (other than HT).

Please elaborate on why firearms is mandatory?
I feel like explosives is mandatory even though its a weird unsynergetic bunch of majors.

GrandHaven.1052:

displacedTitan.6897:

A small range increase does not make up for the fact that you are totally vulnerable in the middle of a fight with bombs.

This does nothing to solve the problems Engineer currently faces. I am glad they fixed it but we are still SOL as far as professions are concerned. Once they nerf Ele and Mes we can talk about viable builds again. As it is now, Engi just doesn’t cut it. Alchemy is far and away the best line and is mandatory, Firearms is almost mandatory on power or condi, Tools is OK but the best GM trait breaks the minor (wtf), Inventions is just bad Alchemy and Explosives is 100% trash. Forge better bring some serious buffs.

Also, what about all the utilities that are totally useless right now?!?! Gadgets are total junk and so are Turrets (other than HT).

Please elaborate on why firearms is mandatory?
I feel like explosives is mandatory even though its a weird unsynergetic bunch of majors.

I think you just explained it, the major traits range from the are you kidding 5% extra dmg if they have vuln to the WTF were they thinking Short Fuse. The adepts are garbage, garbage, Grenadier (if not nades then also garbage). GM traits are OK if you have mortar, 15% are you kidding and WHY DOES THIS HAVE AN ICD???

I guess I should have said with Nades you can go Explosives and for anything else Firearms.

Firearms has traits for everything. Two condi traits in the 50% increase and increased condi dmg., 10% crit chance + 20% crit chance in the bottom two. The middle two traits are iffy, rifle recharge and 10% attack speed is mediocre and the procing vuln/swift is good for the combo with Invigorating Precision. The GMs are also pretty solid, Jugg is fun if not amazing, Modified ammo is good for a power build in a group with condi users and IP is obvious.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vdAQFAUlUUh6rY1VwPLQ7FLTGk4zOQA+Oeyb+46rQ8B-TJBFABiXGohLAAL7PAwDAAA

Works great. Don’t ask, why. I have no clue.
Maybe because of protection and blind. Oh, and the 2x BoB rocks!
I play unranked. Maybe this is the reason. Dunno

shion.2084:

Thought about mortar to add some long range AOE pressure, or to even drop at your own feet (along with the toolbelt skill)?

I have a feeling this build will have particular trouble against rangers.

Incidentally how well do bombs work against shatter mes?

I would dispute the idea that the Mortar Kit really applies any pressure. I’ve always taken it more for its supportive properties than its offensive ones.

No one runs in fear from it, and I find that a traited rifle offers better damage even at range. With Rifled Barrels now baseline, I think a lot of people forget that Blunderbuss has 700 range. Obviously it’s best to use point blank after a Jump Shot for maximum damage, but it’s not like the rifle is useless beyond melee range. 700 range is a lot farther than people think, and I imagine if you actually got used to using it frequently (as it has an 8 second cooldown with this build) you’ll find that the Mortar Kit doesn’t offer a whole lot over the rifle other than a slower projectile that rarely hits 2+ people at slightly longer range; I find Hip Shot much more reliable, and even during the Celestial Rifle days would drop into it over grenade spam against highly mobile targets. With the 10% IAS it just is that much better.

The other reason I’m not taking Mortar Kit is because I really just don’t need it. With Celestial amulet I survive against most 1v1s just fine. With Generosity, Alchemy, and the Elixir Gun it takes a lot of condition pressure to drop me, and with Smoke Bomb and Tranquilizer Dart I can mitigate a lot of incoming damage, even from range. Flash Shell might help me out more with that, but I find Supply Crate a lot more universally useful.

And because I think Celestial builds work best in 1v1 and 2v2 engagements, I find the group utility provided by the Mortar Kit with its water field kinda goes to waste when the Supply Crate’s F5 does a lot more personal healing.

RE: mesmers, I don’t know. With the clone bug no one is playing them right now.

….

My reaction….

Wow, I can’t believe they actually fixed it sooner than later. You get a cookie Arenanet.

funghetto.1584:

anet thanks for the bomb radius again at 240

for healing bombs, consider if that “Soothing Detonation”
When you trigger a combo using a blast finisher, allies near the effect are healed.

isnt only for allies but for engineer + 4 allies. then its much better than healing bombs.

i think explosives is much better with bombs-mortar or nades-mortar (i usually wvw) bombs-rb-eg – mortar or crate depends – but the pressure with explosives and bombs – in melee is nice – especially if with evasive powder keg that is a blast… so healing – might – etc etc

bombs can be used defensively (stack might – stealth) as offensively (54321) – or in disengaging (escaping) dropping 32415 if someone is next to you

and with vulnerability they have the pressure if 5 targets or more are on u – someone will die in that group

firearms-alchemy/inventions – tools is perfect for condition-hybrid builds-power – in pvp (a nice burst of bleeding – critical hit – incendiary powder on critical – basically in a 1 vs 2-3 at the most (this is ofc my opinion)

but explosives and mortar => gain a ton of damage – vuln aoe in wvw fights

Its all or nothing. If I go heal mode engi, I want heal mode engi and not this fake healing that some of you are trying to support. Your builds are not designed for going full cleric’s gear. Right now if you go full cleric’s unlike before, you WILL die in a 1v1 battle unlike before where you could both zerg and 1v1 very well. Not only do you die faster, but you also do subparheals with nearly every squeezable point in the healing tree. Its as if the armor I worked hard to get together has instantly become useless with all these new “changes”. My point here is that there is no heal engi anymore, its either DPS or go home. By them making these new changes, my cleric’s gear is now worthless and I severely doubt anyone else that is saying things on the other side has ever worn full cleric’s gear or goes full heal mode. Unless you are wearing full clerics or similar, I don’t think your input on anything that has to do with the healing tree of Engi has any credibility.

“Soothing Detonation” is a half-hearted skill that easily got smoked by healing bombs because it is too low HP for heals. Instead of a constant stream of healing, it sucks cause once you blast, its over for about 20-30 seconds. It in no way defeats healing bombs because even with its “subpar healing” I got at max about 450 hp per bomb. You added that to Elixir U and you have not only a constant stream of bomb explosions that hit people for medium HP damage, but a ton of heals in one area that make up for those combo fields that lack in speed. Healing bombs healed 5 people without the use of a combo field constantly with damage enough to get people to back off of you cause it would hurt. Part of that was also due to the 10% Healing power to attack power conversion which made healing bombs hurt.

Honestly who pays attention to blasting a combo field damage? People most of the time do not blast combo fields in a fight directly on top of a zerg, but in preparation to go back into a fight and pursue the zerg again.

If you feel the need to argue healing bombs more, get an full set of cleric’s or similar armor and accessories, and then come back and tell me why it is better.

Bomb kit is what celestial build needed, we will see more celestial engineers next days. Before specialization, the condition part of mixed damages came from bleedings mainly, but now you need burnings above all, and bombs provide a recurrent aoe burning source (with others toys that makes them even more valuable).

I shared the build I planned to use in sPvP : http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vdAQFAUlUUh+sY7WwWLQ+FLsFF4IuBBQ4SdRvmYHVFPBA-TJhAwAH3f4/FAAwDAQcZAA
And I really love it with the range fixed, got everything to become really versatile again : decap habilities, direct damages, condition damages, sustains, controls and god mode, everything as much effective in 1vs1 than in many vs many fights.

Honestly, healing bombs was always a terrible build and wasn’t good for anything. It literally offered nothing no other class couldn’t just do better. We now have Bunker Down instead, which is a fantastic trait and works well with a lot of builds.

The purpose of this thread isn’t to discuss the loss of healing bombs anyway, so please take this talk elsewhere.

I took it and ran with it the second someone frowned on it. I like larger bomb explosion radius. I just think we need to closely check the doings of this patch to make sure it is the same with all bomb skills and that nothing got left behind like last time. This thread is a celebration for them getting something right, not a frown on everything else we would desire.

Just for the record, I didn’t see anything about you wearing full cleric’s or similar.

- Elixir Infused Bomb was aoe, Bunker Down is single target
- Elixir Infused Bomb was immediate, Bunker Down requires to walk forward
- Elixir Infused Bomb could be proc in void, Bunker Down requires to hit something (hi ranger ?)
- Elixir Infused Bomb could be maxed from healing power only, Bunker Down requires precision and so can’t be maxed without lacking of defense or damages

Bunker Down definitly worth nothing compared to Elixir Infused Bomb, its only advantage : you can proc it with everything … but only with stuff that deal direct damages (ie, dont work with bomb 345).

Phineas Poe.3018:

Honestly, healing bombs was always a terrible build and wasn’t good for anything. It literally offered nothing no other class couldn’t just do better. We now have Bunker Down instead, which is a fantastic trait and works well with a lot of builds.

The purpose of this thread isn’t to discuss the loss of healing bombs anyway, so please take this talk elsewhere.

A. It is illogical to express an opinion on a subject, just to go on and chide others for discussing the same topic. You specifically asked “is it enough?”, which means if people feel the answer is “yes, if we had elixir infused bombes back”, they are answering your question as they see it.

B. No one is asking you to run elixir infused bombs. Nor did they ask you if you liked it as a build. So why are you against players having options they enjoyed? Why are you against others having access to a trait, simply because you do not feel it is optimal?

NineLives.8725:

- Elixir Infused Bomb was aoe, Bunker Down is single target
- Elixir Infused Bomb was immediate, Bunker Down requires to walk forward
- Elixir Infused Bomb could be proc in void, Bunker Down requires to hit something (hi ranger ?)
- Elixir Infused Bomb could be maxed from healing power only, Bunker Down requires precision and so can’t be maxed without lacking of defense or damages

Bunker Down definitly worth nothing compared to Elixir Infused Bomb, its only advantage : you can proc it with everything … but only with stuff that deal direct damages (ie, dont work with bomb 345).

You just listed most of the reasons why Elixir Infused Bombs was a bad trait.

1. You had literally zero control. It was basically a passive heal, or a second Backpack Regenerator. Bandages with Bunker Down stay there for 12 seconds, meaning you can stack up multiple ones on the ground even while you’re at 100% health and pop them when you need them. At 100% HP, Elixir Infused Bombs was worthless. That just isn’t the case of Bunker Down, which is why it’s a superior trait.

2. Elixir Infused Bombs may have been usable “in a void,” but it required you to camp your bombs, meaning just like Juggernaut you’re really crippling the trait any time you use something else. It’s only as good as long as you stayed in the Bomb Kit, and considering someone has to be a complete idiot to stand in your bombs when engineer has no real hard CC to force them to, especially with the given delay associated with it, the Bomb Kit just very rarely is worth camping outside of PvE. Even now with the radius buff it’s a good idea that you swap out of the Bomb Kit after dropping Fire Bomb, Concussion Bomb, and/or Glue Bomb. If the Bomb Kit ever makes it back into the meta (if it ever really was there) it’ll be through Celestial and Carrion builds relying on its consistent confusion and burn ticks—not the auto-attack. ArenaNet knows this was bad design with Elixir Infused Bombs, which is why the new trait just procs off anything.

3. Elixir Infused Bombs could theoretically be “maxed out” with Healing Power, but Bunker Down heals for more and also scales for more. It’s literally 145 healing versus 500+520 regen. And because it gives regeneration, it procs directly with Energy Amplifier, giving you 250 more healing power to buff Bunker Down even more as well as your Healing Turret. It is hands-over-fists better than Elixir Infused Bombs multiple times over, and our sustain is significantly higher now than it was pre-patch rolling with that garbage trait.

Inventions as a tree is very, very strong if you just sit down and look at the traits. It offers huge defensive increases that Alchemy can’t cover. Alchemy does offer a lot, certainly, but it does so more in the form of condition removal through Transmute and Alchemical Tinctures.

Besides, a bunker build benefits by taking both of them, so it’s not like you really need to make a choice. With bombs you can drop Explosives and take Firearms, allowing you to slot vigor back into your build with Heavy Armor Exploit and Invigorating Speed, and lessening reliance on Tools for skill shot moves with Kinetic Battery; Tools is still objectively good, and for a lot of builds superior to Inventions, but let’s not kid ourselves and pretend like the whole line is worthless.

On the whole, in retrospect, I think engineers are actually in a very good place now that bombs have been buffed. And when I see comments in my threads like this:

displacedTitan.6897:

Alchemy is far and away the best line and is mandatory, Firearms is almost mandatory on power or condi, Tools is OK but the best GM trait breaks the minor (wtf), Inventions is just bad Alchemy and Explosives is 100% trash.

It doesn’t take much to figure out why devs don’t comment here often. Some people just clearly don’t understand this class and its design. Zero vision entirely.

NineLives.8725:

- Elixir Infused Bomb was aoe, Bunker Down is single target
- Elixir Infused Bomb was immediate, Bunker Down requires to walk forward
- Elixir Infused Bomb could be proc in void, Bunker Down requires to hit something (hi ranger ?)
- Elixir Infused Bomb could be maxed from healing power only, Bunker Down requires precision and so can’t be maxed without lacking of defense or damages

Bunker Down definitly worth nothing compared to Elixir Infused Bomb, its only advantage : you can proc it with everything … but only with stuff that deal direct damages (ie, dont work with bomb 345).

You just listed most of the reasons why Elixir Infused Bombs was a bad trait.

1. You had literally zero control. It was basically a passive heal, or a second Backpack Regenerator. Bandages with Bunker Down stay there for 12 seconds, meaning you can stack up multiple ones on the ground even while you’re at 100% health and pop them when you need them. At 100% HP, Elixir Infused Bombs was worthless. That just isn’t the case of Bunker Down, which is why it’s a superior trait.

2. Elixir Infused Bombs may have been usable “in a void,” but it required you to camp your bombs, meaning just like Juggernaut you’re really crippling the trait any time you use something else. It’s only as good as long as you stayed in the Bomb Kit, and considering someone has to be a complete idiot to stand in your bombs when engineer has no real hard CC to force them to, especially with the given delay associated with it, the Bomb Kit just very rarely is worth camping outside of PvE. Even now with the radius buff it’s a good idea that you swap out of the Bomb Kit after dropping Fire Bomb, Concussion Bomb, and/or Glue Bomb. If the Bomb Kit ever makes it back into the meta (if it ever really was there) it’ll be through Celestial and Carrion builds relying on its consistent confusion and burn ticks—not the auto-attack.

3. Elixir Infused Bombs could theoretically be “maxed out” with Healing Power, but Bunker Down heals for more and also scales for more. It’s literally 145 healing versus 500+520 regen. And because it gives regeneration, it procs directly with Energy Amplifier, giving you 250 more healing power to buff Bunker Down even more as well as your Healing Turret. It is hands-over-fists a better trait in terms of raw healing power. Literally no argument can be made, especially given how unpopular Elixir Infused Bombs was pre-patch.

The entire Inventions line, on the whole, has never been good before June 23, and there has never been any instance where a meta build in PvE, PvP, or WvW took Elixir Infused Bombs. Never in the entire history of this game’s existence, three years ago to the day, have I ever seen a reputable player advertise a build with Elixir Infused Bombs as ideal anywhere.

What used to get zero play pre-patch is now taken in one of our best team queue builds and what will likely be another comfortable solo queue option alongside FT/TK with the Bomb Kit.

So when I see comments like this:

displacedTitan.6897:

Alchemy is far and away the best line and is mandatory, Firearms is almost mandatory on power or condi, Tools is OK but the best GM trait breaks the minor (wtf), Inventions is just bad Alchemy and Explosives is 100% trash.

It doesn’t take much to figure out why devs don’t comment here often. Some people just clearly don’t understand this class and its design. It must be so emotionally degrading reading people clearly having no vision for what they’re trying to do with the profession and yet bashing their work anyway.

Inventions as a tree is very, very strong if you just sit down and look at the traits. It offers huge defensive increases that Alchemy can’t cover. Alchemy does offer a lot, certainly, but it does so more in the form of condition removal through Transmute and Alchemical Tinctures.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Inventions as a tree is very, very strong if you just sit down and look at the traits. It offers huge defensive increases that Alchemy can’t cover. Alchemy does offer a lot, certainly, but it does so more in the form of condition removal through Transmute and Alchemical Tinctures.

I VERY much agree with you. HOWEVER the reason inventions ISN’t as strong in the current state of PvP is :

1. All the adepts are bugged in some way.
1.A) Overshield – This was fixed, so not all. Still a pretty useless trait. Needs increased radius AND increased duration on protection to be remote useful. Right now you block for 3 seconds but and then only really get use of protection for one second.

1.B) AMR – Does not reset cleansing burst which is what makes healing turret strong.

1.C) Autodefense bomb dispenser – Does not drop a smoke field, so it only blinds ONCE, this is extremely bad…

2. The other main reason is condition removal. Alchemy + elixir S(and trait) is the only way we can survive reliably in this current meta. Alchemy provides much needed condition cleanse on a lower CD AND allows us to survive focussed burst at the cost of just ONE cooldown.

Inventions would be great if condition heavy builds were less common.

Big Ol’ Bomb radius is still 300. It should be 360.

it seems me strange becouse amr worked like that for design , not for a bug. it worked only on healing skills , not on charged of turrets .

Still not enough, not to make it viable, (and note, I define ‘viable’ as making a sufficiently positive contribution to see a place in play, not ‘is working for the most part’) and especially not to give it the build paths it lost in the trait revamp.

• Short Fuse needs to effect Big Ol’ Bomb and Thermobaric Detonation/Evasive powder keg.
• As stated above Big Ol’ Bomb still needs its radius fixed.
• Bunker Down’s critical hit requirement needs to be removed, at least for the medpack drop. There is NO ferocity/healing gear in the entire game, and even if there was, it wouldn’t be worth slotting ferocity for the games singular sustain/support trait that requires it. And why is it the only such option? Because critical hit requirements were removed for ALL the support sigils for this same reason and there is no reason it doesn’t apply to Bunker Down. And making this change would go a long way to replace the sustain that was lost in when EIF was removed which actually made it possible to run bombs in PvP and gave it a fun support niche.
• Merge Medical dispersion field down with Soothing Detonation. People may have two problems with this suggestion, that its overpowered, or that they make a great combo. And I would remind anyone that says that, that Soothing Detonation heals everyone but you, meaning these traits don’t combo with each other whether they are on two tiers or one. MDS on the other hand, would combo with bunker down for a support option similar to (though admittedly much weaker than) the old IEF trait.

Phineas Poe.3018:

You just listed most of the reasons why Elixir Infused Bombs was a bad trait.

It may not be the best trait for PvP, but it is a solid trait elsewhere in the game. I understand this discussion is in the context of PvP. But how often do you use Medical Dispersion Field in PvP? Unless you find that to be a valuable grandmaster trait, why are you so against EIB? I suggest exchanging MDF for EIB. I enjoy the bomb kit, so I just assume have EIB for when I am in bomb kit. I do not camp in the kit, but find thay trait valuable when I do use the kit.

Now you lost me when you suggest it is passive. Because that is not what passive means. You very literally need an action to get the benefit. It is simply additive the actions. Just like any trait that adds additional damage, conditions, cc, or any defensive function to a skill.

Glue bomb still misses 60 range, since it was always 240 and 300 traited …

Phineas Poe.3018:

displacedTitan.6897:

Alchemy is far and away the best line and is mandatory, Firearms is almost mandatory on power or condi, Tools is OK but the best GM trait breaks the minor (wtf), Inventions is just bad Alchemy and Explosives is 100% trash.

It doesn’t take much to figure out why devs don’t comment here often. Some people just clearly don’t understand this class and its design. It must be so emotionally degrading reading people clearly having no vision for what they’re trying to do with the profession and yet bashing their work anyway.

Inventions as a tree is very, very strong if you just sit down and look at the traits. It offers huge defensive increases that Alchemy can’t cover. Alchemy does offer a lot, certainly, but it does so more in the form of condition removal through Transmute and Alchemical Tinctures.

Sometimes I feel like we are playing a different game Phineas. I love Inventions and used it both pre-patch when it really sucked and post-patch when it is just bad Alchemy.

You talk about these traits like we live in a vacuum where other professions skills and builds don’t matter. There is a reason the meta builds are all taking Alchemy and HGH: condi clear/might/invulns and invis are just better than what Inventions gives you. I love me some Mecha Legs and Bunker Down but it cant compete in the current meta with Elixer X’s ability to shut people down OR Elixer S’s ability to get us out of a jam. The problem is that Inventions doesn’t help any of our utilities, it TRIES to help turrets but since they are AWFUL and the two turret traits are also AWFUL it just becomes a worse version of alchemy.

Hell Alchemy suffers from the problem that it has TWO minors that HGH benefits and synergizes with which causes the other two GMs to be completely passed over.

The Devs SHOULD feel bad about the lack of synergy in our traitlines. Why does a Tools GM break the first minor? Why in Alchemy can you not take HGH with Iron Blooded since, you know, Elixers are our only boon source? Why does Explosives revolve entirely around grenades? Where is the Med-Kit trait that makes it useful? Where is the cross spec synergy, if you look at other professions they have traits that synergize across specs which make builds better. Engineer has almost ZERO synergy outside of Alchemy with HGH + Hidden Flask and Alchemical Tinctures.

Engineer during the original spec preview stream was half built and you can tell they rushed to finish the class given all the bugs and the total lack of synergy. We have so many traits that do not deserve to be standalone or that are just poorly thought out.

I thought the “vision” for the Engineer was a “jack-of-all-trades, master of none” kind of thing but then I saw Ele and realized that they have THE SAME vision but also get MASSIVE synergy. If they want to differentiate the two classes they need to give Engi a niche. Make us have ZERO synergy as a DESIGN but make all of our Specs have AWESOME individual traits. This half measure just highlights the fact that ANet has no idea what Engineers are supposed to be right now.

coglin.1867:

Phineas Poe.3018:

You just listed most of the reasons why Elixir Infused Bombs was a bad trait.

It may not be the best trait for PvP, but it is a solid trait elsewhere in the game. I understand this discussion is in the context of PvP. But how often do you use Medical Dispersion Field in PvP? Unless you find that to be a valuable grandmaster trait, why are you so against EIB? I suggest exchanging MDF for EIB. I enjoy the bomb kit, so I just assume have EIB for when I am in bomb kit. I do not camp in the kit, but find thay trait valuable when I do use the kit.

Now you lost me when you suggest it is passive. Because that is not what passive means. You very literally need an action to get the benefit. It is simply additive the actions. Just like any trait that adds additional damage, conditions, cc, or any defensive function to a skill.

I disagree with this statement greatly, but as this is a PvP thread, perhaps the discussion should be had elsewhere.

I was testing an almost identical build pre patch in many 1v1s against some pretty good DD eles, mesmers, and cele necros! Lost most of these 1v1s when I specifically designed the build to be a 1v1/1v2 backpoint holder! I found that bomb Engis just can’t compete with the 1v1 juggernauts of condi Mesmer and cele Necro/Ele! I highly doubt a 60 radius increase will change that fact!

However I had much success with the build just solo queueing in ranked/unranked! Clearly playing casual arenas isn’t an accurate measurement of a build’s efficiency since I got absolutely wrecked when doing 1v1s with good players while winning many 1v1s and even 1v2s and on one occasion a 1v3 while solo queueing! Anet’s terrible matchmaking at work!

It also bothered me that I couldn’t use the explosive line when my most offensive kit was an explosive kit, especially since Short Fuse is so good! Imagine a meditation Guardian without the valor tree! If Anet wants Bomb Kit to be viable, serious explosives tree and/or Bomb Kit overhauls need to be made! Some ideas I had were increasing Fire Bomb pulse and Concussion Bomb power damage! Since the explosives line is 100% power oriented and Bomb Kit is pretty awful in a power build, having Bomb Kit deal more power damage would be nice! I also suggested many times adding condition traits to the explosives line! Since the Engineer is pigeonholed into the explosives line if they want to be competitive, having the explosives tree be completely power oriented hurts build diversity as evidenced by the complete disappearance of competitive condi builds!

Wahoo! Bye frands!

coglin.1867:

Now you lost me when you suggest it is passive. Because that is not what passive means. You very literally need an action to get the benefit. It is simply additive the actions. Just like any trait that adds additional damage, conditions, cc, or any defensive function to a skill.

Yeah this is something I’ve heard dozens of people say on these forums, who I don’t believe once even slotted EIF. It was just as active as any other support build, even a little more so in some cases, not only in its healing but with its AoE disables and might stacking. I mean look at the most popular support build in the game, the WvW staff ele. I love my engi but I’m an ele main, and that build literally boils down to standing 1200 range away from the fight and rolling through the exact same fire/earth/water skill in the exact same order for hours on end. You could teach a monkey to do it as well as any player.

lorddarkflare.9186:

coglin.1867:

Phineas Poe.3018:

You just listed most of the reasons why Elixir Infused Bombs was a bad trait.

It may not be the best trait for PvP, but it is a solid trait elsewhere in the game. I understand this discussion is in the context of PvP. But how often do you use Medical Dispersion Field in PvP? Unless you find that to be a valuable grandmaster trait, why are you so against EIB? I suggest exchanging MDF for EIB. I enjoy the bomb kit, so I just assume have EIB for when I am in bomb kit. I do not camp in the kit, but find thay trait valuable when I do use the kit.

Now you lost me when you suggest it is passive. Because that is not what passive means. You very literally need an action to get the benefit. It is simply additive the actions. Just like any trait that adds additional damage, conditions, cc, or any defensive function to a skill.

I disagree with this statement greatly, but as this is a PvP thread, perhaps the discussion should be had elsewhere.

That would be true if it were relavent to the rest of my post. Just because one poster does not personally feel it is optimal, does not justify suggesting it should not exist for other who like the trait. Particularly when it is suggested as a replacement for a trait that appears to be generally unpopular and unused.

PierPiero.9142:

it seems me strange becouse amr worked like that for design , not for a bug. it worked only on healing skills , not on charged of turrets .

Overcharging the Healing Turret is a part of the healing skill, so it should recharge it as well—and does. It was a bug, which is why it was changed/fixed.

coglin.1867:

It may not be the best trait for PvP, but it is a solid trait elsewhere in the game. I understand this discussion is in the context of PvP. But how often do you use Medical Dispersion Field in PvP? Unless you find that to be a valuable grandmaster trait, why are you so against EIB? I suggest exchanging MDF for EIB. I enjoy the bomb kit, so I just assume have EIB for when I am in bomb kit. I do not camp in the kit, but find thay trait valuable when I do use the kit.

Medical Dispersion Field may not be useful right now, but it may become useful at some point in the expansion. Remember that these core specializations and the new trait lines coming with the new specializations are designed around Heart of Thorns content and not vanilla content. I think determining its usefulness and whether it should be changed should be made when we actually have the expansion on our hands.

coglin.1867:

Now you lost me when you suggest it is passive. Because that is not what passive means. You very literally need an action to get the benefit. It is simply additive the actions. Just like any trait that adds additional damage, conditions, cc, or any defensive function to a skill.

That may be your definition of passive, but it isn’t mine. I view anything as passive that requires minimal effort from the player. Guardians spamming Wave of Wrath for loot in Cursed Shore, to me, is passive. Even though there’s an action involved, you’re just mashing one skill over and over again and not really thinking about it.

So bombs just healing you when you drop them, in my view, is the very definition of a passive trait. You’re just given it. There’s no additional action required, unlike something like Kinetic Battery that requires additional thought to use. You can’t just mindlessly mash your tool belt skills and think you’re benefiting best from it, which makes it an “active” trait.

Elixir Infused Bombs required literally zero thought to use. All you had to do was swap to the Bomb Kit and drop bombs on the ground. You didn’t even have to hit anybody with it, or even be in combat. I don’t understand how anything could be less passive without simply being Backpack Regenerator.

Maybe you disagree, but I am not here to argue semantics with you. I don’t think Elixir Infused Bombs was a good trait and you haven’t really established any real reason why the Bomb Kit needs it, whether it is active or passive. I don’t even see how Elixir Infused Bombs would even fit in today’s meta, because 145 healing a second is absolutely garbage when burns are ticking for 2000 damage easily.

Conncept.7638:

Yeah this is something I’ve heard dozens of people say on these forums, who I don’t believe once even slotted EIF.

Can you not say stuff like this? It wouldn’t surprise me if I tried, tested, and abandoned EIF before you even rolled an engineer, or even bought Guild Wars 2. I know I’ve been gone from the game and these forums a while, so a lot of people may not know who I am, but I’m not really known to talk out of turn on things like this around here. I wrote a huge percentage of the guides for the engineer during this game’s infancy, including purposefully curating and maintaining non-meta builds that people desired to play “for fun.”

I know very well that not everyone is interested in or cares about the meta, and you can take solace that I usually test things heavily before I denounce them on here, if that changes anything. But Elixir Infused Bombs was literally a terrible trait and served no purpose. If you wanted to play bunker you were better off staying outside of melee range, which the Bomb Kit obviously requires you to perform in. I don’t just dump a trait just because, and I have always tried to make a positive spin of everything by suggesting improvements to under-utilized traits that don’t fit anywhere in the game.

Elixir Infused Bombs was one of those traits, and that’s why it was changed. Arguing that it was useful, balanced, or “good” kind of is overshadowed by the fact that it was (1) removed from the game and (2) was not made baseline.

Just because you disagree with my assessment of the trait or its definition as “passive” that doesn’t mean we need to resort to personal attacks.

displacedTitan.6897:

You talk about these traits like we live in a vacuum where other professions skills and builds don’t matter. There is a reason the meta builds are all taking Alchemy and HGH: condi clear/might/invulns and invis are just better than what Inventions gives you. I love me some Mecha Legs and Bunker Down but it cant compete in the current meta with Elixer X’s ability to shut people down OR Elixer S’s ability to get us out of a jam. The problem is that Inventions doesn’t help any of our utilities, it TRIES to help turrets but since they are AWFUL and the two turret traits are also AWFUL it just becomes a worse version of alchemy.

Hell Alchemy suffers from the problem that it has TWO minors that HGH benefits and synergizes with which causes the other two GMs to be completely passed over.

The Devs SHOULD feel bad about the lack of synergy in our traitlines. Why does a Tools GM break the first minor? Why in Alchemy can you not take HGH with Iron Blooded since, you know, Elixers are our only boon source? Why does Explosives revolve entirely around grenades? Where is the Med-Kit trait that makes it useful? Where is the cross spec synergy, if you look at other professions they have traits that synergize across specs which make builds better. Engineer has almost ZERO synergy outside of Alchemy with HGH + Hidden Flask and Alchemical Tinctures.

Engineer during the original spec preview stream was half built and you can tell they rushed to finish the class given all the bugs and the total lack of synergy. We have so many traits that do not deserve to be standalone or that are just poorly thought out.

I thought the “vision” for the Engineer was a “jack-of-all-trades, master of none” kind of thing but then I saw Ele and realized that they have THE SAME vision but also get MASSIVE synergy. If they want to differentiate the two classes they need to give Engi a niche. Make us have ZERO synergy as a DESIGN but make all of our Specs have AWESOME individual traits. This half measure just highlights the fact that ANet has no idea what Engineers are supposed to be right now.

I sympathize with your frustration. Engineer was one of the last professions to be revealed before the game came out, was the most incomplete of all the classes at launch and suffers the most bugs of any class patch after patch. This only became more painfully obvious to me the more professions I leveled to 80 and played. I got all professions to 80 by mid-2013, and by that point the meta was well defined with record runs in dungeons, the Living Story had just finished its first season, the GvG scene had gotten going, all while engineers still suffered from broken, unusable traits, incorrect tool tips, and terrible animations.

Our traits were an unfinished PowerPoint presentation during the original preview stream, and even now they’re saving our elite specialization for one of the last ones. I have no doubt in my mind that engineer won’t even be revealed before the next beta weekend, leaving ArenaNet with only three days of feedback while all the other specializations will have received nine.

I am really tired of ArenaNet always saving us for last, but I disagree that there’s no vision here. Engineer is just such a unique class to the MMO genre, and they’re really doing something special with it. It’s going to take a lot more work making such an inventive class work well compared to drawing on tried-and-true stereotypes like warriors, rangers, and thieves. The only reason other mechanically unique classes like mesmer and elementalist are as refined as they are compared to engineer, in my view, is because ArenaNet already has years of experience balancing both professions during the original Guild Wars (though they are different from their original counterparts), and they already have a core idea of what they have in mind for both classes.

Either way, I still think they have a firm vision of what they have in mind, and I still think you’re failing to see the forest for the trees here by implying that our trait lines lack synergy.

Iron Blooded benefits from literally every passive trait in the tree. Hidden Flask gives you extra boons, Transmute gives you extra boons, and Alchemical Tinctures makes them last longer. HGH is an offense oriented trait, Iron Blooded is a defense one. The problem is that, and we keep arriving to this conclusion as a group around here, we just don’t know what Heart of Thorns content is going to look like just yet. We don’t know what the new fractal instabilities will be, what the new challenging group content will be, or what the meta will be for Stronghold after all is said and done. Iron Blooded, with the Forge tree, could very well make us the best bunker in the game, and may rely on zero elixirs to do so.

We just don’t have that information yet, so please: just relax and be patient. And please try to remain on target with the scope of this thread as it relates to the Bomb Kit.

I am not concerned with what your definition of passive is. I am concerned with the actual definition of passive. As well, I am not concerned with what a trait could be. I am concerned with what a trait is. Isn’t it reasonable to discuss things based on facts, actual meaning, and how things are, and not a level of what is and alternate meanings outside of the realm of actuality?

My point is, clearly there are a fair amount of players and posters that like EIB and felt that the trait had value. So my question would be, why are you so strongly against others getting what they want to benefit the kit for their uses?

Phineas Poe.3018:

Conncept.7638:

Yeah this is something I’ve heard dozens of people say on these forums, who I don’t believe once even slotted EIF.

Can you not say stuff like this?

Simply put, no.

Claiming that something was a mindlessly passive playstyle is nothing short of an accusation and an insult, and one clearly made in ignorance since it is is unequivocally false. If anybody didn’t like EIF then fine, just plainly say so, but don’t BS the rest of us with false pseudo game design garble about ‘passivity’. The EIF bomb builds required no less active play than any other weapon or monokit dependent build for its DPS or its supportive elements. What was stated is flat out false and if you or the person that said it don’t like being called out on it, don’t spew out the bullcrap in the first place.

amr is not fixed. i did a teq 20 mins ago and procced amr and used healing turret and saw that i still had 5 secs of recharge on the overcharge.

on a more distressing note…

Right now if you go full cleric’s unlike before, you WILL die in a 1v1 battle unlike before where you could both zerg and 1v1 very well.

no, you could not 1v1. you had 0 chance of winning a 1v1. the best you could do was stall it so no one wins. i fought both apothecary and cleric variants before. there is no possible way that build could kill me as long as i was attentive and trying.

as for it being a guaranteed loss now, thats unfortunate. but dont confuse yourself into thinking you can 1v1 just because a single person cant have enough dps to kill you.