Guild Wars 2

tl;dr Looking for a candid discussion on twisting the current grenade-cele rifle meta, but with FT. Definitely not as much condi pressure, but more focus on balancing physical damage and fire uptime, also adding more to decapping.

Hello everyone! I’m dusting off this old forum account to embrace the excellent PvP discussions going around. A brief history with this build: I’ve used it for a few months and decided this is a good chance to open up conversations about a twist to the current grenades meta and see what fellow engineers think of it.

Build: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fdAQFAElUUpWrlch1LSYLkROuNomISV/YkAA-TZAZAAQZAA
>>3rd utility, runes, and sigils left blank for discussions below<<

Current trial as of March 9, with everything filled in: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fdAQFAUlUUpWrlcx+KseRCbBNyx0GQNBRuxq8xIEAA-TJRHwAEuAAf2fAwDA4YZAA

3rd Utility: Slick Shoes or Elixir S
—Slick Shoes might be the #1 option for that phenomenal lockdown when pulled off, and Super Speed is no stunbreaker to laugh at.
—Elixir S should be a very close #2 if not equal to Slick Shoes. I like how the utility and toolbelt offers versatility for stunbreaking, stomping, escaping, and reviving.

Runes/Sigils variants
1) Flame Legion/Doom+Leeching (preferably slot Invigorating Speed)
2) Flame Legion/Doom+Energy (if slotting Protection Injection)
3) Hoelbrak/Battle+Energy (if slotting Protection Injection)
4) Hoelbrak/Battle+Leeching (preferably slot Invigorating Speed)
5) Hoelbrak/Battle+Doom (same as #4)
Even after the nerf to might, Hoelbrak/Battle combos still seem viable because of the sixth set bonus.

Build Breakdown
I couldn’t imagine FT’s versatility until finally using it last year.

• FT#1 is useful for hitting targets taking advantage of LoS, bubbles, and reflect shields since it goes through barriers and isn’t a reflectable “projectile”. The obvious counter is Retaliation, but I think the careful engineer can use other cooldowns or rifle auto until the boon expires. Versus other classes and builds with many blocks and damage nullifiers, the flame jet works great in figuring out when to resume normal rotations. For any other purpose FT#1 is a weak and short-ranged autoattack, so Rifle #1 would be superior then.
• FT#2 is one extra blast finisher with Healing Turret or FT#4 fire field, and otherwise a low cooldown, hard-hitting skill.
• FT#3 helps a lot with Rifle#4 to chain knockbacks and decapping nodes. Against thieves attempting Shadow Refuge, I’d cast it in the middle of the circle for a good chance of pushing out and revealing the thief.
• FT#4 is the go-to fire field, although it’s a relatively thin field that can be hard to work with. At best, the fire wall is great for stacking fire duration when defending points (thieves tend to stand in it for some reason). I also combo it with TK#2 against melee fighters for a touch of condi pressure.
• A well-timed FT#5 can throw off CC rotations like hammer warriors and updraft from eles. If Elixir S and its toolbelt are down, then another well-timed blind can smoothly stomp classes with no downed-state teleports/invisibility.
• Finally the Incendiary Ammo toolbelt skill maintains a nice touch of fire damage for longer fights.

I’m going to take a stab and assume a lot of people already know about Tool Kit’s excellent utility, and won’t draw out well-known details. Same deal for rifle skills.

continued next post

Still experimenting with the traits, but here’s an explanation for each major decision.

• Accelerant-Packed Turrets has seen a drop in use since the nerf, but I find its small knockback is a great setup for harder hitting cooldowns like Pry Bar or Jump Shot. It is a blessing against thieves. Well into a fight, I like to stack on a turret and detonate during the thief’s next melee rotation for a second chance at not getting overwhelmed.
• Incendiary Powder is probably the must-have master trait because it adds to constant fire uptime for nice ticks and the 7% damage boost if running Rune of the Flame Legion.
• I wrestled with either Hair Trigger or Fireforged Trigger, but went with the latter because it probably adds utility to the kit more so than Hair Trigger does for rifle.
• Backpack Regenerator is a must-have for the same reason as the current grenades-cele rifle meta. Invigorating Speed/Protection Injection depends on equipment setup as mentioned above.
• And finally, Speedy Kits is too good to lose especially when slotting Invigorating Speed. Power Wrench is arguably another must-have for lower cooldowns on pulling rotations and a great blocking skill.

Closing thoughts
With the celestial amulet, this build amounts to some hefty sustain. From my experience using this build since last July, the damage output is probably less than optimal, but the take-away is the balance between low cooldown CCs, physical damage, and constant fire damage uptime. Another big disadvantage to this build is range, which Jump Shot and Magnet could help minimize. Since the nerf to might, I’ve been experimenting with the Flame Legion rune setups. So far it has worked well.

I think one of the first questions to be asked is why not pistol/shield? It’s a good question and something I have not tried out yet. I’d imagine it opens up Rune of the Scavenging as a third rune option, but immediate question right afterward is why bring Flamethrower anymore? Grenades with Incendiary Powder would be more appropriate going down that road.

That’s pretty much it for now. I’m interested to read what you all think of the build!

I tested the potentially very strong f skill from flame thrower, with your setup though, even classes with very weak active condition cleanses can get rid of the burning very fast which then takes the synergy of flame legion runes. Maybe you should get a cover condition sigil because the applied conditions lack their effectiveness in covering for fire which obviously is key.
Anyway, I am the first one wanting to see flamethrower more effective – the skills seem To be more versatile than the ones from our established kits. In return they kind of lack efficiency.
Anyway, I appreciate you trying to shift the meta, flamethrower has its places in hot joins but unfortunately I got very unlucky with it in ranked games.
And btw, why is flame wall so crappy. A nice firefield like ele’s staff skill would be so much more awesome to justify the freaking name of the kit at least

Definetly worth a try!

BTW the only thing the FT needs is a ground targetting #2 (because in current state is so weird to aim correctly) and circular field on #4. Maybe also halve the ticks on #1 and double the damage per tick to cover a bit the retal question, even if the fast ticks are amazing for on hit/on crit sigils/traits.

I’d take Generosity over Leeching to get rid of those pesky with FT#1 (easy to proc even currently with nades), doom is good since we loose GK#5 ;-)

I personally like ft, but it is not that good in a match, like it seems on a paper.
Thiefs, warriors and other melee classes wouldn’t let you hit them with #1 and #2. Using nades or bombs allows you to kite them, while doing damage, ft does not.

Also you loose good amount of on-point pressure from gk#4 and gk#5 while in team fights.

I found it better against power rangers, mesmers and power necros. And it can still win about any other in 1vs1 if well played, but nades are way more useful.

Ps. Thus I’m really tired of running nades in every game mode

First of all thanks for the input and the opportunity to theorize with you all!

Assassin.7890:

I tested the potentially very strong f skill from flame thrower, with your setup though, even classes with very weak active condition cleanses can get rid of the burning very fast which then takes the synergy of flame legion runes. Maybe you should get a cover condition sigil because the applied conditions lack their effectiveness in covering for fire which obviously is key.

You’re right because since I’m relying on one condition has given me issues when facing Signet of Renewal and Signet of Water (plus too many low cooldown cleanses to list). I’d list the possible burning applications, but that’s a mouthful. Knowing that, I have to pay closer attention in future matches to see if this really is the case where applying burns will be impossible on melee targets to about 600 range.

Assassin.7890:

Anyway, I appreciate you trying to shift the meta, flamethrower has its places in hot joins but unfortunately I got very unlucky with it in ranked games.

That’s very interesting. I am guilty of devoting >90% of matches in unranked and probably don’t have a credible opinion on tracking the build’s ranked match performance. I’ll try to record some gameplay in ranked matches and update the first post for critique.

Assassin.7890:

And btw, why is flame wall so crappy. A nice firefield like ele’s staff skill would be so much more awesome to justify the freaking name of the kit at least

I feel you man. Sometimes it gets wonky to blast FT#2 in that field with all the camera business without an active target. As Gaaroth mentioned below it would be a nice change to shoot a circular field similar to Flame Turret’s toolbelt, but I’d be accused of copying and pasting skills!

Gaaroth.2567:

BTW the only thing the FT needs is a ground targetting #2 (because in current state is so weird to aim correctly)

I’m probably biased against the idea because I’ve gotten used to it (as long as I have an active target!). Can’t discredit the idea though because… well why not? It’s a good idea regardless.

Gaaroth.2567:

I’d take Generosity over Leeching to get rid of those pesky with FT#1 (easy to proc even currently with nades)

Good idea. I tend to forget engis have relatively poor self-cleansing, so Generosity will help. I’ll give it shot for a round of matches.

Dimes.6024:

Thiefs, warriors and other melee classes wouldn’t let you hit them with #1 and #2. Using nades or bombs allows you to kite them, while doing damage, ft does not.

That’s got me a little curious about the role of thieves, wars, and other melee classes. I don’t think there’s an issue of them letting me get hits with FT#1 because it does low damage and their damage output is in melee. FT#1 has a special role to make any classes hiding behind obstacles, reflect walls and bubbles feel insecure. Also against thieves it is useful to spray the area while popping Incendiary Ammo for a chance at blindly applying burn. Also, melee builds end up doing the work for me in setting up FT#2. The projectile doesn’t track and is pretty darn slow, but that’s usually not an issue when targets try bashing my face in (or backstabbing).

Good point on FT’s lack of kite-and-damage capability. Unfortunately the only (awkward) setup is look at target for a split second, send out FT#2, and lay down FT#4. Definitely not as efficient as bombs and nades.

Dimes.6024:

Also you loose good amount of on-point pressure from gk#4 and gk#5 while in team fights.

Another good point here and another big ding on the build; lack of chill and AoE poisons. Grenades seem superior in team fights and point pressure. Regarding on-point pressure, FT tries to make up for it with low cooldown FT#2 explosions and maybe FT#4 on point. FT#3 is a great option for an AoE push. And I guess if all else is failing… FT#1 all the things on point (watch out for retaliation!).

Dimes.6024:

Ps. Thus I’m really tired of running nades in every game mode

One engi to another, brother. I feel you.

I think all-in-all I need to start applying what I learned from you folks into a video and having the good public scrutinize the gameplay. Will work on that!

So here’s my current PvP build.

If you want to tweak it for celestial and the balance of direct damage and burn, it’d look more like this.

Honestly, though, having

I love, love, love this build. A few pros to the way I build it:

• Mine field. It removes retaliation, which is a huge counter to FT. It’s also great for removing stability, which leaves them open to this build’s copious CC. There are few things more entertaining than stripping stability off a lich form and knocking them back three times. Or running up to a Guardian casting empower, tossing mines down, and detonating the moment they finish.
• Rocket boots. The mobility from this skill is simply amazing. It doesn’t look like much, but it can take you 1/3 of the way to a point in an instant. If you knockback, turn, and rocket boots, you’re instantly past 1200 range, so it’s a great escape. It breaks immobilize, and turns Entangle (Ranger elite) into a complete joke. This is also a powerful way to close gaps on ranged players, which (as mentioned above) are a counter to this build. With a 16s CD, you can use it frequently.
• Rocket Kick. A 8.25s burn on a 15.5s cooldown, and it’s AoE with a small leap. It works perfectly with this build. Really helps you keep burn up on people.
• Throw Mine. Adds a third knockback (yet another way to counter Shadow Refuge). Really useful against ranged players. If you position the throw correctly, you can actually knock them towards you (keep in mind that you can detonate the mine mid-air – it doesn’t have to land first). Even if you just knock them sideways, the knockdown gives you time to get up.

Overall, this build has high mobility, lots of burn, and balanced damage. You get ridiculous self-healing (and good AoE) with the turret (I almost always manage three blast/leap finishers in the water field, so it heals for loads). It can actually dodge really often (up to 3 dodges per 10 seconds). You get loads of control with three knockbacks, each traited for -20% cooldown. Honestly, in general, you have loads of utility because all of your skills are on low cooldown (heal and elite being the only exceptions). It’s a flexible, fun-to-play build, and I love it.

Definitely going to give the burn version a more thorough try.

I don’t see why you wouldn’t be pwned in 5 seconds if mesmer, ranger, thief or necro focuses you.

Too little defense and not too much offense. High risk low reward.

Dimes.6024:

I don’t see why you wouldn’t be pwned in 5 seconds if mesmer, ranger, thief or necro focuses you.

Too little defense and not too much offense. High risk low reward.

That sums it up well. You´re running berserkers amulett without a single stunbreak, this simply cant work against any half descent opponent. Your melandru runes/FT5 wont catch up on that.

And for this extremly poor defensive options, you totally lack in offense. Sure, you might burst one if you catch him unlucky and unload all you got, but that wont happen a lot.

I actually recommend FT but only for death match. Nades has better DPS but FT is easier for me to use. If we had templates, I would have it as my go to death match build.

Thiefz.3695:

I actually recommend FT but only for death match. Nades has better DPS but FT is easier for me to use. If we had templates, I would have it as my go to death match build.

any thief in opposite team and death match becomes match of your infinite deaths

Never had a problem with thieves in DM. Perhaps I should say, it’s good for low to mid mmr. I don’t use celestial, I run full dps. If I get the first shot, it’s normally not a problem.

After some testing, I’ve eneded up running 4/4/0/4/2 with strength runes and FT/TK/EGun. Pretty much perma ~550 damage burns, plus enough additional power to make flame blast hit hard, and intelligence sigil to turn it into a real burst. I’ve been trying out a few different sigils for the second slot, and it’s come down to either geomancy or doom. Doom procs seem to miss or get dodged more from this build than the usual nade build, though.

Sins.4782:

After some testing, I’ve eneded up running 4/4/0/4/2 with strength runes and FT/TK/EGun. Pretty much perma ~550 damage burns, plus enough additional power to make flame blast hit hard, and intelligence sigil to turn it into a real burst. I’ve been trying out a few different sigils for the second slot, and it’s come down to either geomancy or doom. Doom procs seem to miss or get dodged more from this build than the usual nade build, though.

If you’re running EGun then do you even need Doom?

Dimes.6024:

I don’t see why you wouldn’t be pwned in 5 seconds if mesmer, ranger, thief or necro focuses you.

Too little defense and not too much offense. High risk low reward.

Okay, the only time I’ve ever been pwned in seconds is by two thieves, full burst, at the same time.

If they lock me down with CC, I get protection (-33% damage) and the CC is -25% as long. I can almost always survive the damage. It’s very, very rare for me to get bursted down without dropping out of stun. Note that I have an AoE blind usable while stunned, which can help mitigate the damage.

Once I pop out of stun, I can heal 11k in a matter of a few seconds (1k from leech, 5k from turret, 4k from blast finishers, 1k from regen). All of that is on a 20s cooldown.

Now, at this point, I can dodge 3-5 times in the first several seconds of the fight. Timed right, that can clearly mitigate a lot of damage.

I also have three knockbacks and a 2s immobilize, which can really lock them down. Since this is a hypothetical fight against a CC-lock burst player, let’s look at the damage I can do in just a few seconds:

This rotation: Mine → Leap → Blunderbuss → Overcharged Shot → Fire Blast (including Incendiary Ammo and sigil of leeching) will average something like 18k to an enemy with 2k armor. They’ll get up just as the Blunderbuss hits, but the moment that hits you fire OS (which is instant) and knock them over so they eat your Fire Blast.

Of course, they’ll probably have at least one stun break. But keep in mind that I have a third knockback and an immobilize to help control them. I just wanted to demonstrate that this build has a strong burst rotation of its own. It’s not burst-thief strong, of course, but it’s strong in its own right. Keep in mind that most of those skills are AoE. This build’s single-target damage is good but not incredible; it’s not just for single-target damage, it’s for AoE pressure, high mobility, and lots of control. Team up with a burst character, and my CC will let them get free, easy kills.

Dacromir.6207:

Dimes.6024:

I don’t see why you wouldn’t be pwned in 5 seconds if mesmer, ranger, thief or necro focuses you.

Too little defense and not too much offense. High risk low reward.

Okay, the only time I’ve ever been pwned in seconds is by two thieves, full burst, at the same time.

If they lock me down with CC, I get protection (-33% damage) and the CC is -25% as long. I can almost always survive the damage. It’s very, very rare for me to get bursted down without dropping out of stun. Note that I have an AoE blind usable while stunned, which can help mitigate the damage.

Once I pop out of stun, I can heal 11k in a matter of a few seconds (1k from leech, 5k from turret, 4k from blast finishers, 1k from regen). All of that is on a 20s cooldown.

Now, at this point, I can dodge 3-5 times in the first several seconds of the fight. Timed right, that can clearly mitigate a lot of damage.

I also have three knockbacks and a 2s immobilize, which can really lock them down. Since this is a hypothetical fight against a CC-lock burst player, let’s look at the damage I can do in just a few seconds:

This rotation: Mine -> Leap -> Blunderbuss -> Overcharged Shot -> Fire Blast (including Incendiary Ammo and sigil of leeching) will average something like 18k to an enemy with 2k armor. They’ll get up just as the Blunderbuss hits, but the moment that hits you fire OS (which is instant) and knock them over so they eat your Fire Blast.

Of course, they’ll probably have at least one stun break. But keep in mind that I have a third knockback and an immobilize to help control them. I just wanted to demonstrate that this build has a strong burst rotation of its own. It’s not burst-thief strong, of course, but it’s strong in its own right. Keep in mind that most of those skills are AoE. This build’s single-target damage is good but not incredible; it’s not just for single-target damage, it’s for AoE pressure, high mobility, and lots of control. Team up with a burst character, and my CC will let them get free, easy kills.

:) i know how engi skills work, but to knockback someone he should be in front of you. why would thief stay in front of you, unless he is afk? so you can only hit him with mine and JS… and that wouldnt ever kill him.

about aoe pressure etc so funny. just stop playing calc and dreaming.

Dimes.6024:

:) i know how engi skills work, but to knockback someone he should be in front of you. why would thief stay in front of you, unless he is afk? so you can only hit him with mine and JS… and that wouldnt ever kill him.

about aoe pressure etc so funny. just stop playing calc and dreaming.

Big logical fallacy right here. You’re assuming that because he’s a thief and I’m an engi, I’m somehow just going to sit there and let him stand behind me. Which makes no sense. Positioning is a player skill issue. I’m plenty good at keeping thieves in front of me. If anything, with the knockbacks, immobilize, high dodge, and gap-openers, I’d say I’m better than most builds at keeping thieves off my back.

I’ve played a lot of celestial flamethrower and use 44060, elixir gun instead of toolkit, and leave third utility for elixir c against heavy condi teams, goggles against thieves (revealed trolls them so much), and elixir x, slick shoes, and rocket boots interchangeably in wvw.

Traits are
Accelerant turrets, incendiary ammo
Fire forged trigger, juggernaut
Protection injection, deadly mixture, backpack regenerator

I use runes of traveler for speed, boon duration, burn/bleed duration and celestial stats. I mix sigils around between battle, doom, leeching, energy, and intelligence.

Juggernaut with celestial stats and the heavy amount of damage modifiers and might puts out huge pressure in team fights with enormous sustain. I only swap to elixir for 1 skill when needed then right back.

It’s a very powerful build that I believe competes with the meta grenades build but serves as more of a bunker, with less burst.

ft sux, nades are for smart ppl, ur inbred

From my experience FT works and works well (for me)

I run 4/4/0/4/2

This is a build i’ve been using, similar to those suggested above however i take pistol / shield:-
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fdAQJAqelUUpWrlcx+KseRCbBNqxAyJcBRuxq8xIEAA-TJBFwAo2fYxJAAaZAAPAAA

If you’re going to use Flamethrower you should be pushing for points, keeping points. Use pistol to engage and defensively. You can apply poison / bleed / blind with pistol on engagement. Then switch to flamer. Remember to trigger flamer tool kit skill with pistol.

Before engage you can also stack might with flame 4 and blasting flame 2 with shield 4. Instant stacks of might. Traited FT cooldown means the skills are always up quick. Smoke vent is super useful if melee classes get close. Use it as a crutch if required so they’re attacks miss in close.

Use toolkit and shield defensively. That’s 2 blocks and a projectile reflect if you need to get away or in the case of rangers, in close.

I had a blast playing flamethrower and then I got to 80.

Everyone said it sucked.
But I found a solid build

….and then I tried it in WvW

The End

But, seriously I’d love to see something that works there.
Maybe it was just me…engineers are a pain in the kitten to play.
I need lessons.

JAGGERNAUT TRAIT IS BROKEN. IT DOESN@T GIVE YOU TOUGNESS UNLESS U GOT – SIN, bloddlust buff, food buff with tougness.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fdAQFAUlUUpWrlcxdLseRCbBNqxAqJI6NWlO+xIEAA-TJBHwAAuAABeAAy2fAZZAA
That’s how i like to play the FT Engi. I personally need the EG in this build, it provides more mobility, aoe, sustain and an additional poison source, which is especially helpful when fighting other bunkers or when something needs to be cleaved.
For those who are interested, i recorded some matches with this build a while ago:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBYWIBD_jN0

It’s a very powerful build that I believe competes with the meta grenades build but serves as more of a bunker, with less burst.

I also tried a sort of burst build. It worked out ok, considering that i was a zerk engineer without elixir s.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnXCgzItCNI