Guild Wars 2

*by aimed shot I mean holding the butt of the gun against your shoulder, and looking down the sights/scope.

Anywho, I’m sure you’re all familiar with the debate (will summarize it below for those who aren’t) ….one thing that always comes up is the requirement for a new animation, and that the warrior has a aimed animation that would kinda work, but i guess the timing is too long or something, so it’d have to be modified and would therefore not really be a quick fix…

ANYWAY today I noticed the flamethrower ability #2 uses a shoulder-fired animation that would be PERFECT for the rifle; the rifle’s cast time is 3/4 second; the FT#2’s cast time is 1/2 second – so if THAT animation were used, it would work just fine. The FT’s animation actually lasts longer than just half a second, so that overlap could simply be used to fill the remaining 1/4 second for the ‘hip’ shot animation.

Figured I’d point that out; odd that warriors always come into the discussion when we engi’s have a working animation of our own.

-

The debate, for those uninitiated:
Many players don’t like the fact that “Hip shot” is a hip shot. From a conceptual standpoint, firing almost any gun designed for shoulder fire from the hip, is REALLY stupid – your accuracy will go down the drain, and if you’re shooting something larger than a .22 (very small ammo) you’ll probably wind up hurting yourself because of the recoil… even firing those guns correctly (shoulder fire) can hurt; i recall sighting in a 7mm magnum hunting rifle, and it left a decent bruise on my shoulder. Had I tried hip-firing that gun, I probably would have wound up with a broken wrist or something.

Other players think the animation is fine as is, because firing from the hip makes your toon look like some tough hollywood actor firing a fake shotgun that has little to no recoil.

If you haven’t guessed by reading that, my own preference would be to change it to a shoulder-fired animation :P …firing a rifle or shotgun from the hip is akin to using your face to pound nails into wood… sure it makes you look tough; but it also makes you look like an idiot. Get a hammer and do it right. (imo, of course. the debate is ongoing)

You forgot to mention that hip fire looks absolutely ridiculous on the legendary rifle.

Legendary rifle built entirely for warriors bothers me more than anything else.

Some people like the animation and as previous posters in other threads have said it looks like its supposed to be a blunderbuss and not a shotgun or a rifle, which is supposed to be hipfired. (apparently)

Still don’t care for it much but w/e, opinions are opinions.

ehh the blunderbuss argument is a pretty big stretch. There are a handful of rifle skins that look like they could be a blunderbuss, but the vast majority of them look like rifles or shotguns.

See for yourself,
http://imgur.com/a/yQ9Kl#44

Looks aside, they’re called rifles in-game; not blunderbusses (blunderbi? /shrug), so Anet’s intentions are pretty clear regarding what they are; even if they overstepped the boundaries of correct nomenclature in a few instances in order to give us a larger variety of skins to choose from.

They are not rifles, rifles don’t fire nets or shoot you off the ground. They are not shotguns either. They are a two handed engineered weapon that has never existed in any shape or form in reality which has been labelled, for want of a better name, rifle. It shares a model with the warrior because that’s what happens in MMOs. All these arguments are absurd. Just say you don’t like the animation, don’t justify it, it won’t work. I do like it, I think it fits with the overall feel of the profession. I don’t care if it’s not realistic. Neither is firing nets or using a rifle to fire you across the room. And I’m no expert on animation but I think the animation from shoulder firing to leaping will look stupid or will slow down the ability.

Grumwulf.9602:

They are not rifles, rifles don’t fire nets or shoot you off the ground. They are not shotguns either. They are a two handed engineered weapon that has never existed in any shape or form in reality which has been labelled, for want of a better name, rifle. It shares a model with the warrior because that’s what happens in MMOs. All these arguments are absurd. Just say you don’t like the animation, don’t justify it, it won’t work. I do like it, I think it fits with the overall feel of the profession. I don’t care if it’s not realistic. Neither is firing nets or using a rifle to fire you across the room. And I’m no expert on animation but I think the animation from shoulder firing to leaping will look stupid or will slow down the ability.

I agree that most these arguments are absurd, they are just opinions, some like, some don’t. Realism shouldn’t hold much weight in an argument concerning a fantasy game but when a lot of people think something just looks plain stupid – it should be looked at in the very least.

What isn’t an absurd argument is the legendary rifle was clearly designed to be used by warriors.

Haltus Kain.4578:

ehh the blunderbuss argument is a pretty big stretch. There are a handful of rifle skins that look like they could be a blunderbuss, but the vast majority of them look like rifles or shotguns.

See for yourself,
http://imgur.com/a/yQ9Kl#44

Looks aside, they’re called rifles in-game; not blunderbusses (blunderbi? /shrug), so Anet’s intentions are pretty clear regarding what they are; even if they overstepped the boundaries of correct nomenclature in a few instances in order to give us a larger variety of skins to choose from.

the blunderbuss was a precursor to the modern day shotgun. and considering early models of the shotgun(circa 1860’s) were lever action, i wouldn’t mind there being an animation involved with that(Guild rifle is almost an exact replica of the Winchester ’73, save for the bigger barrel.)

Grumwulf.9602:

They are not rifles, rifles don’t fire nets or shoot you off the ground. They are not shotguns either. They are a two handed engineered weapon that has never existed in any shape or form in reality which has been labelled, for want of a better name, rifle. It shares a model with the warrior because that’s what happens in MMOs. All these arguments are absurd. Just say you don’t like the animation, don’t justify it, it won’t work. I do like it, I think it fits with the overall feel of the profession. I don’t care if it’s not realistic. Neither is firing nets or using a rifle to fire you across the room.

Rifles will shoot whatever you put into it, provided it fits through the barrel. Why would you want us to not justify our argument? lol… I don’t like the current animation BECAUSE hip-firing a weapon designed for shoulder fire is horribly ineffective. Engineers, of all classes, should be the ones who know how to use things like guns correctly… if anything, warriors should be the ones hip-firing, because not being the techy-trinkety folks, they might not know any better. Engineers, in concept, fight with their brains; we don’t have the hulk-like muscles, or ability to summon up a fire ball, but we don’t need it because we bring the technology – and use it effectively… with the exception of operating rifles at the moment; despite seeing our technologically impaired warrior brethren showing us up every time they use a rifle, by actually using it correctly.

Tyria != RL, but it is heavily inspired by RL, and should therefore be as realistic as possible so long as said realism doesn’t conflict with lore or weaken the gameplay. For example, if I said “GW2 shouldn’t have dragons, because dragons don’t exist” that would be a stupid request because dragons are a major part of GW lore. If I said “In GW2, for the sake of realism, we should have to periodically eat, drink, and use restrooms, because we have to do these things IRL.” that would be a stupid request because simulating those activities would not be entertaining. If I said “Engineers – the class renown for intellect and ingenuity – don’t hold rifles correctly; they hold it in a manner that would dramatically reduce accuracy, and likely cause personal injury… that should be changed.” that would be a reasonable request.

-

Let’s turn the tables for a sec, and engage in a quick hypothetical scenario.

Let’s imagine that Rangers operate bows in the following fashion:

The bow is held, by the drawstring, in one hand. With the other hand, the nock of the arrow is positioned against the grip of the bow while the head of the arrow is placed between the index and middle fingers of the hand holding the drawstring. The grip is then pulled back, while the drawstring is held out in front of the ranger; the grip is released, propelling the arrow forward through the index and middle finger, and toward the target.

All other bow using classes operate the bow as they do now; the nock of the arrow is set into the nocking point on the bow string with the head of the arrow resting on the arrow rest. The drawstring is pulled and released to fire the arrow.

The ranger forums inevitably erupt with requests for their class to operate the bow correctly; they’re rangers! Bows are their thing! Maybe some other class could get away with operating the bow like an idiot; but rangers are like professionals… there’s no excuse someone like that would operate a bow in a manner that drumroll would be horribly inaccurate, and likely cause personal injury.

…then some naysayers come along, saying they like the current animation because it makes rangers look tough; or that ridiculousness of the current animation per RL standards is not a factor because we’re not talking about RL; that justifying the request to operate bows correctly is a lost cause because it only boils down to the opinion of liking it vs not liking it.

Would you not agree that said naysayers sound absurd, and that the animation should be changed?

Grumwulf.9602:

And I’m no expert on animation but I think the animation from shoulder firing to leaping will look stupid or will slow down the ability.

…huh? The shoulder fired animation and the leap animation would be two separate things; as they belong to two separate abilities (#1 and #5)… why one one slow the other down?

can we also fix it so that whenever i am not actively firing, i am not holding my pistol with this awkward limp wrist?

Haltus, I can see your point (I’m not against or for this idea), but you know you can look at it in the different way too. For example, engineers are renowned for their intellect and ingenuity and therefore can use a special type of ammo (which they’ve invented) which does not kick like all others and therefore can shoot from hip and faster, while warriors have to use regular ammo which kicks like horse.

I’m not saying that it meant to be that way, but you can always find a reason why it is one way and not other or why it should be the other way and not the current one. It’s just matter of opinion.

Is this the place for people who smoke crack?

Hip shot doesnt look real when you are killing a dragon? is that the thing that is unrealistic in your eyes? not the dragon, or any other made up thing.

Slightly Serious Hat On – Its basically large guns. Rifle is just the name thats used to put it into a group within the game, as opposed to have to make an entirely new weapon just for one class to use. People complaining about the authenticity should be ignored because this is has wizards and stuff so we are expected to forgo certain realities.

Now, could the animations be altered? Not sure how hard it would be, but if they made a few high level rifle skins and made the engineer use a different set of animations when using those weapons, that could be cool. Very cool indeed. But its not something I would be bothered about really.

lol not about how real it looks.

It’s about how stupid it looks to some. Hip firing bothers a lot of people.

Wouldn’t be hard to edit animations. Would literally be a 5 minute change.

I don’t use rifles so I’m not fussed at the moment, but if there ever came a time I would want to use rifles it would certainly annoy me no end seeing my character shoot it like a kitten

Yep hip shot is just as bad as the completely useless poison shots. Doesn’t matter how much prec pow you have it misses half it’s shots ALL THE TIME. smh.

We need sniper capabilies especially the Charr who are warlike, I’m pretty sure they’ve gained enough tactical knowledge to know how to snipe an enemy from far far away by now.

The poison shots should be changed to unload like from the Fkey racial ability the charr have from hidden pistol. It’s annoying to see good dps wasted because of a design flaw.

If they want to give it an AOE component have the bullets explode like the #1 ability of the pistols. Thats the other thing. Why don’t engineer rifle bullets explode??? Shouldn’t they? I mean they do just about the same damage as the regular bullets. And if they did it would allow make it easier to hit multiple targets in Orr events. That would be a big improvement right there.

hope they do change it, its the only reason i cant level up my engineer. it makes me cringe everytime im using a rifle. My other alternative is to play a warrior for rifle use.

Reboco.7309:

*Haltus*, I can see your point (I’m not against or for this idea), but you know you can look at it in the different way too. For example, engineers are renowned for their intellect and ingenuity and therefore can use a special type of ammo (which they’ve invented) which does not kick like all others and therefore can shoot from hip and faster, while warriors have to use regular ammo which kicks like horse.

I’m not saying that it meant to be that way, but you can always find a reason why it is one way and not other or why it should be the other way and not the current one. It’s just matter of opinion.

Certainly not impossible, in that Tryia physics might not be reflective of RL physics; but like the blunderbuss argument, I’d say that’s a pretty huge stretch.

What we do know about the engineer’s rifle ammo:

1) They use cartridge ammunition; bullet, powder, and primer are all contained by a casing, making the 4 components one single unit. This is opposed to having to pour the powder into the gun; then inserting the projectile; then igniting the powder with a flint or something.

2) When fired, bullets move at speeds comparable to those fired from RL firearms. (very, very fast).

How do we know this?

1) If you fire a rifle while standing on a hard surface such as stone or metal, you will hear the casing hit the ground immediately after firing.

2) When fired, the rifle makes the iconic ’bang’ that RL guns do. This sound occurs because of the bullet traveling faster than the speed of sound.

Why is this important?

1) The design and mechanics of Tyrian firearms are modeled after RL firearms to an extent that we can reasonably assume that the only difference are polygons.

2) If the bullet is propelled out of one end of the gun with a great amount of force; the gun itself will be propelled in the opposite direction with equal force. Since the mass of a firearm is much greater than the mass of the bullet it fires; and because the surface area of the butt of the firearm which contacts the shooter is much greater than the surface area of the bullet which contacts the target; the gun moving one direction has much less potential to cause damage to things like flesh and bone than does the bullet traveling in the other direction - BUT the force of the gun moving, recoil, is still enough to cause discomfort or minor damage even when used correctly (refer to the ’bruised shoulder’ incident mentioned in a previous post); so, when used incorrectly, such as firing from the hip, the only things there to absorb the force of the recoil are the hand gripping the forestock of the firearm (not a noteworthy amount of force absorption) and the trigger finger of the other hand, when the trigger guard snaps back against it. The most likely results of that are that are the hand holding the forestock moving back a bit, or not moving at all as the forestock slips through it; and the trigger finger and nearby body parts such as the hand and wrist being broken/dislocated/at the very least, struck hard enough to cause considerable discomfort (compare to hitting your thumb with a hammer).

Therefore, again barring the possibility that Tyrian physics are not reflective of our own (things like the speed of sound, for example, may be different in Tyria than it is IRL... however, this is never established in lore, so I see no reason to take such possibility into account), we can infer that the ammo used by engineers not different to a noteworthy degree than the ammo we use IRL; that things like recoil are just as much present in Tyria as they are IRL; and that firing such a weapon from the hip would be just as bad an idea in Tyria as it is IRL, hence our request for the animation/ability name to be changed to the more logical shoulder-fire.

And all that isn’t taking into account the loss of accuracy when firing from the hip vs using the sights/scope, which is reason enough not to fire from the hip.

...and holy kitten I think I just set a new personal record for over-analyzing a videogame

Haltus Kain.4578:

Reboco.7309:

Haltus, I can see your point (I’m not against or for this idea), but you know you can look at it in the different way too. For example, engineers are renowned for their intellect and ingenuity and therefore can use a special type of ammo (which they’ve invented) which does not kick like all others and therefore can shoot from hip and faster, while warriors have to use regular ammo which kicks like horse.

I’m not saying that it meant to be that way, but you can always find a reason why it is one way and not other or why it should be the other way and not the current one. It’s just matter of opinion.

Certainly not impossible, in that Tryia physics might not be reflective of RL physics; but like the blunderbuss argument, I’d say that’s a pretty huge stretch.

What we do know about the engineer’s rifle ammo:

1) They use cartridge ammunition; bullet, powder, and primer are all contained by a casing, making the 4 components one single unit. This is opposed to having to pour the powder into the gun; then inserting the projectile; then igniting the powder with a flint or something.

2) When fired, bullets move at speeds comparable to those fired from RL firearms. (very, very fast).

How do we know this?

1) If you fire a rifle while standing on a hard surface such as stone or metal, you will hear the casing hit the ground immediately after firing.

2) When fired, the rifle makes the iconic ‘bang’ that RL guns do. This sound occurs because of the bullet traveling faster than the speed of sound.

Why is this important?

1) The design and mechanics of Tyrian firearms are modeled after RL firearms to an extent that we can reasonably assume that the only difference are polygons.

2) If the bullet is propelled out of one end of the gun with a great amount of force; the gun itself will be propelled in the opposite direction with equal force. Since the mass of a firearm is much greater than the mass of the bullet it fires; and because the surface area of the butt of the firearm which contacts the shooter is much greater than the surface area of the bullet which contacts the target; the gun moving one direction has much less potential to cause damage to things like flesh and bone than does the bullet traveling in the other direction – BUT the force of the gun moving, recoil, is still enough to cause discomfort or minor damage even when used correctly (refer to the ‘bruised shoulder’ incident mentioned in a previous post); so, when used incorrectly, such as firing from the hip, the only things there to absorb the force of the recoil are the hand gripping the forestock of the firearm (not a noteworthy amount of force absorption) and the trigger finger of the other hand, when the trigger guard snaps back against it. The most likely results of that are that are the hand holding the forestock moving back a bit, or not moving at all as the forestock slips through it; and the trigger finger and nearby body parts such as the hand and wrist being broken/dislocated/at the very least, struck hard enough to cause considerable discomfort (compare to hitting your thumb with a hammer).

Therefore, again barring the possibility that Tyrian physics are not reflective of our own (things like the speed of sound, for example, may be different in Tyria than it is IRL… however, this is never established in lore, so I see no reason to take such possibility into account), we can infer that the ammo used by engineers not different to a noteworthy degree than the ammo we use IRL; that things like recoil are just as much present in Tyria as they are IRL; and that firing such a weapon from the hip would be just as bad an idea in Tyria as it is IRL, hence our request for the animation/ability name to be changed to the more logical shoulder-fire.

And all that isn’t taking into account the loss of accuracy when firing from the hip vs using the sights/scope, which is reason enough not to fire from the hip.

…and holy kitten I think I just set a new personal record for over-analyzing a videogame

I think everyone knows that hipfiring isn’t realistic by now, shouldn’t hold much weight in a fantasy MMO still.

But saying that, anything that detracts from immersion and looks stupid to a lot of people should be considered as a possible flaw.

Out of all the pro hipfire people, would you guys actually mind if the engineer fired the rifle/shotgun/blunderbuss whatever in a less stylised manner?

nofo.8469:

kitten bro thats some pretty extreme analysis.

Odd. That part of your post isn’t showing in your actual post, but it is in the quote box. But yea that might’ve been a tad overkill XD

nofo.8469:

I think everyone knows that hipfiring isn’t realistic by now, shouldn’t hold much weight in a fantasy MMO still.

Disagree. Realism arguments shouldn’t hold weight regarding fantasy aspects of the game, or when said realism would take away from the gameplay. *repeats the spiel in the second paragraph of my third post here*

There are fantasy aspects of the rifles in game; as another poster pointed out, propelling yourself across the room or firing a net are not exactly realistic... but for the most part, tyrian rifles are so similar to RL ones, that requesting they be handled in a similar fashion as RL rifles seems reasonable to me (emphasis on ’to me’ as that statement is obviously extremely subjective).

So, yes, GW2 is a fantasy game as a whole, but we’re not talking about the game as a whole, we’re talking about a very specific aspect of the game (firing a rifle), and that aspect does not fall into the category of ’fantasy’. Rather, it is a simulation (of firing a rifle IRL), but currently is is a simulation of what not to do, and that is unacceptable for really any profession, but especially for the engineer.

nofo.8469:

But saying that, anything that detracts from immersion and looks stupid to a lot of people should be considered as a possible flaw.

On that note, please delete the quaggan!! (jk, of course :P)

In all seriousness though, you are correct; I’d be surprised is this change isn’t made eventually just out of popular demand (assuming we’re not a vocal minority; I have no idea where the community as a whole stands on the matter - I can only speak for myself).

Haltus Kain.4578:

nofo.8469:

kitten bro thats some pretty extreme analysis.

Odd. That part of your post isn’t showing in your actual post, but it is in the quote box. But yea that might’ve been a tad overkill XD

nofo.8469:

I think everyone knows that hipfiring isn’t realistic by now, shouldn’t hold much weight in a fantasy MMO still.

Disagree. Realism arguments shouldn’t hold weight regarding fantasy aspects of the game, or when said realism would take away from the gameplay. repeats the spiel in the second paragraph of my third post here[/i]

There are fantasy aspects of the rifles in game; as another poster pointed out, propelling yourself across the room or firing a net are not exactly realistic… but for the most part, tyrian rifles are so similar to RL ones, that requesting they be handled in a similar fashion as RL rifles seems reasonable to me (emphasis on ‘to me’ as that statement is obviously extremely subjective).

So, yes, GW2 is a fantasy game as a whole, but we’re not talking about the game as a whole, we’re talking about a very specific aspect of the game (firing a rifle), and that aspect does not fall into the category of ‘fantasy’. Rather, it is a simulation (of firing a rifle IRL), but currently is is a simulation of what not to do, and that is unacceptable for really any profession, but especially for the engineer.

nofo.8469:

But saying that, anything that detracts from immersion and looks stupid to a lot of people should be considered as a possible flaw.

On that note, please delete the quaggan!! (jk, of course :P)

In all seriousness though, you are correct; I’d be surprised is this change isn’t made eventually just out of popular demand (assuming we’re not a vocal minority; I have no idea where the community as a whole stands on the matter – I can only speak for myself).

Hard to say whether or not we are a minority, my guess is the majority of people don’t really care either way.

Part of my post was trying to get a feel for the amount of people that are vehemently against changing rifle animation in any way.

Yeah I guess you are right about fantasy needing some basis in reality, so the argument is worth something.

Mostly preference, and I know from reading these forums for awhile that there is a mixture of people who hate the hip shot animation, a lot who don’t care, and a few that seem to love it.

Haltus Kain.4578:

2) When fired, the rifle makes the iconic ‘bang’ that RL guns do. This sound occurs because of the bullet traveling faster than the speed of sound.

Well I see that I can learn something new everywhere. Never realized that the sound is because of the braking the speed of sound barrier

Haltus Kain.4578:

1) The design and mechanics of Tyrian firearms are modeled after RL firearms to an extent that we can reasonably assume that the only difference are polygons.

…

And all that isn’t taking into account the loss of accuracy when firing from the hip vs using the sights/scope, which is reason enough not to fire from the hip.

I agree with your points in this topic, but what you don’t want to admit is that actually you can fire rifle from the hip in real life. Check this

I’m not saying that it’s safe or what ever, but it’s possible. And you can also manipulate with the recoil by changing the type of ammo (have lighter bullet, less powder or something, I really don’t know much about this but I saw talks about it and some advice what kind of ammo kicks how much).

And for the accuracy, well engineers do have only 900 range on rifle while warriors have 1200, so it actually shows that it’s not accurate at all.

After some more thoughts I can see also the lore in it (maybe not exactly but, well…). They are using rifle primarily as a utility tool and not as a damaging firearm (what is its primary purpose in general). Yes it can kill people but they have it as a minor feature, and using this feature shallowly (maybe with lighter ammo) which might be the reason firing from hip.

Haltus Kain.4578:

2) If the bullet is propelled out of one end of the gun with a great amount of force; the gun itself will be propelled in the opposite direction with equal force [Physics lecture snipped]

Because of the conservation of momentum, which is governed by both mass and velocity, a very small projectile propelled at a very high speed would have virtually no recoil and yet still deliver significant kinetic energy (damage) to the target, without any alteration to physics.

Therefore, it’s possible that engineers are shooting projectiles composed of just a few atoms at a significant fraction of c – which would also explain why we never need to reload since a single magazine could hold many millions of rounds of ammo.

Though you’re correct that it would still probably be smarter to actually, you know, aim the kitten thing.

nofo.8469:

Grumwulf.9602:

They are not rifles, rifles don’t fire nets or shoot you off the ground. They are not shotguns either. They are a two handed engineered weapon that has never existed in any shape or form in reality which has been labelled, for want of a better name, rifle. It shares a model with the warrior because that’s what happens in MMOs. All these arguments are absurd. Just say you don’t like the animation, don’t justify it, it won’t work. I do like it, I think it fits with the overall feel of the profession. I don’t care if it’s not realistic. Neither is firing nets or using a rifle to fire you across the room. And I’m no expert on animation but I think the animation from shoulder firing to leaping will look stupid or will slow down the ability.

I agree that most these arguments are absurd, they are just opinions, some like, some don’t. Realism shouldn’t hold much weight in an argument concerning a fantasy game but when a lot of people think something just looks plain stupid – it should be looked at in the very least.

What isn’t an absurd argument is the legendary rifle was clearly designed to be used by warriors.

I agree about the legendary and I hope the recent news of new legendaries fixes this for us.

Haltus Kain.4578:

2) When fired, the rifle makes the iconic ‘bang’ that RL guns do. This sound occurs because of the bullet traveling faster than the speed of sound.

The “bang” from most guns come from the muzzle blast, not the projectile breaking the sound barrier. Most rifles and pistols are subsonic, meaning the projectile travels at below the speed of sound. What you’re hearing is super-heated gas rapidly leaving the barrel and colliding with the cooler air in the atmosphere.

Supersonic guns are easily recognizable because the projectile, when breaking the sound barrier, produces a loud “crack” rather than a “bang.”

BurnedToast.3781:

a very small projectile propelled at a very high speed would have virtually no recoil and yet still deliver significant kinetic energy (damage) to the target, without any alteration to physics.

Therefore, it’s possible that engineers are shooting projectiles composed of just a few atoms at a significant fraction of c - which would also explain why we never need to reload since a single magazine could hold many millions of rounds of ammo.

Hehe, good observation. You’re just as nit-picky as I am!

When fired, though, we can actually see the bullet leaving the gun, and its size is pretty heavily exaggerated. If the bullet were composed of only a few atoms, it wouldn’t have an in game model; instead we’d just see the white trail it leaves behind.

However, that kind of pushes the whole rifle vs shotgun thing; going by appearance alone, it looks more like a slug to me. ...but, it could just be that they made it the size it is because they want us to see it; a normal sized bullet for a rifle would pretty much not be visible either, hidden again by that white trail.

Taking a step back though, it’s important to distinguish the guildwars universe from the guildwars game(s). By that I mean there are some things a game simply cannot simulate due to the everchanging nature of a ’universe’ or things that there is no need to simulate due to it not really contributing to the game (see spiel on having to eat, drink, and excrete posted previously). This doesn’t mean that those things don’t happen in terms of lore, but that they’re simply implied. I mean, do chicks in the GW universe shout "I can outrun a centaur!!" every time they sprint? Is Divinity’s Reach really only home to a few hundred people? Of course not. But our characters have a very limited vocabulary because each thing they say requires development time; Divinity’s Reach is only sparsely populated because if the size of the city and number of occupants in game was in scale with lore, our FPS would become a slideshow when visiting that location.

...so, do our toons not reload because there’s a lore explanation for it, or do they not reload because the devs decided that doing so isn’t something they really care to highlight in the heat of combat, whether or not reloading is necessary in the guildwars universe. I would guess the later.

You’ll notice one thing I focused on previously is the sound of the casing hitting the ground after firing a rifle; that sound required a very conscious effort from the devs to make it in game; and yet, is not really a component of the gameplay... so why did they add it? That sound is telling a story; showcasing where the firearm technology is at in GW2. It lets us know that the guns in GW2 are in par with our guns IRL.

You’ll also notice there are things I did NOT hone in on when constructing my argument, such as the rate at which we can fire guns in game - which is very fast. Does that imply that our guns are fully, or even semi-automatic? Not really. The rate at which we attack is a very critical part of the gameplay; this is the kind of thing that is often exaggerated in order to get the best gameplay, even if the lore says we need to load each shot separately (which I have no idea if that is determined by lore or not; but you get the point).

Gah, I need to get to work! Friggin’ time.

Tl;dr: consider the differences of what’s part of lore and what’s part of the game; where they overlap, and where they do not.

I’ll address the other posts when I get home. Great discussion so far, folks!

/salute!

Mazra.1625:

Haltus Kain.4578:

2) When fired, the rifle makes the iconic ‘bang’ that RL guns do. This sound occurs because of the bullet traveling faster than the speed of sound.

The “bang” from most guns come from the muzzle blast, not the projectile breaking the sound barrier. Most rifles and pistols are subsonic, meaning the projectile travels at below the speed of sound. What you’re hearing is super-heated gas rapidly leaving the barrel and colliding with the cooler air in the atmosphere.

Supersonic guns are easily recognizable because the projectile, when breaking the sound barrier, produces a loud “crack” rather than a “bang.”

Never heard that before, but looking into it, you appear to be right. I stand corrected.

Reboco.7309:

I agree with your points in this topic, but what you don’t want to admit is that actually you can fire rifle from the hip in real life. Check this

I’m not saying that it’s safe or what ever, but it’s possible.

I never said it’s impossible to hipfire a rifle; just incredibly stupid. Some dude screwing around at a firing range is one thing; show me a video of a rifle being hipfired in an actual combat situation, especially at a target that isn’t like ontop of the shooter; and if you can somehow dig up that footage (which would earn you a serious /tiphat) then explain why shoulder firing the gun in that situation wouldn’t yield MUCH better results.

Compare to pounding a nail into wood. You can use your face; or you can use a hammer. I’m not saying you can’t use your face to get the job done; infact I wouldn’t be surprised at all if some idiot has tried, and succeeded, at doing that… BUT there’s a much, much better way to carry out that task.

Reboco.7309:

And you can also manipulate with the recoil by changing the type of ammo (have lighter bullet, less powder or something, I really don’t know much about this but I saw talks about it and some advice what kind of ammo kicks how much).

Generally speaking, more kick to the shooter = more damage to the target. Seeing as engineers use their guns to kill things – and we’re not talking squirrels (often) but zombie gorillas, armor-clad norn, dragons, etc.; it’s reasonable to assume that the ammo they’re using packs quite a punch. …that said, perhaps not quite as large a punch as I was initially thinking, in light of Mazra’s correction regarding the ‘bang’ vs ‘crack’ of gunfire. Still, it’s safe to assume we’re not shootin’ .22’s.

Reboco.7309:

And for the accuracy, well engineers do have only 900 range on rifle while warriors have 1200, so it actually shows that it’s not accurate at all.

See my response to BurnedToast a couple posts back. The mechanics of gameplay and mechanics of lore often do not overlap. The notion that ANY gun cannot be fired passed a range of 900 (which is what, like 30 yards?) is ridiculous. It is the way it is because that’s how the devs felt it was most balanced, not because of any lore factors.

Reboco.7309:

After some more thoughts I can see also the lore in it (maybe not exactly but, well…). They are using rifle primarily as a utility tool and not as a damaging firearm (what is its primary purpose in general). Yes it can kill people but they have it as a minor feature, and using this feature shallowly (maybe with lighter ammo) which might be the reason firing from hip.

That is not established by lore, to my knowledge. If it is, please post the source, as that would pretty well end the debate.

Haltus Kain.4578:

Mazra.1625:

Haltus Kain.4578:

2) When fired, the rifle makes the iconic ‘bang’ that RL guns do. This sound occurs because of the bullet traveling faster than the speed of sound.

The “bang” from most guns come from the muzzle blast, not the projectile breaking the sound barrier. Most rifles and pistols are subsonic, meaning the projectile travels at below the speed of sound. What you’re hearing is super-heated gas rapidly leaving the barrel and colliding with the cooler air in the atmosphere.

Supersonic guns are easily recognizable because the projectile, when breaking the sound barrier, produces a loud “crack” rather than a “bang.”

Never heard that before, but looking into it, you appear to be right. I stand corrected.

To be fair, I had no idea what was causing the bang until I looked it up, but I knew that most guns fired projectiles at subsonic speeds. The C7A1 infantry rifle I used while in the military had a muzzle velocity of ~900 kph, while the speed of sound at ground level and at normal temperatures is around 1200 kph.

Thank god for Wikipedia, eh?

Fun fact: The “wizz” you hear from a bullet going past your head is the air caving in to fill the vacuum that the bullet just left behind it.

edit:OT: Im in favor of the hip shot and the bliundebuss theory.

-The engineer has a move named “blundebuss”

-Blunderbuss were fired from the hip, away from the face for a very specific reason.

-Blunderbuss’ were not designed for accuracy wich may validate the medium range of the engineer as opposed to the rifle warrior.

-Before the common use of the rifle, the blunderbuss was favored for it’s effectiveness. This is because sharp shooting wasn’t highly prioritised.

-Engineers have to specifically soec into something called “rifled barrel”

Now the actual reason the blunderbus was fired from the hip away from the face is because the powder flare came out of the back of the barrel. that flare would burn your face if fired like a modern rifle.

Consideringh that wariors do fire while sighting down the barrel. that they get greater distance. i conclude that they do fire rifles.

But considering that engineers fire from the hip. that they get less distance. The need to sped into ‘rifled barrel’. And especially that they have a skill named blunderbuss, I have to conclude that their weopons operate similar to a blunderbuss. atleast the rear back flare.

the only arguement against this is that they are actually called rifles in game but this is easily countered by the idea that A-net didn’t want to create two specialized weopon classes for very similar weopon skins.

edit 2: i think if they changed the name from rifle to “boom stick” or “thunder stick”, the arguent would stifle. Since it doesn’t imply only a rifle or only a blunderbus but some similar weopn to both tthat could lean either way

Dustfinger.9510:

Im in favor of the hip shot and the bliundebuss theory.

-The engineer has a move named “blundebuss”

Said move should be hipfired. But it is one ability for engineers within the category of “Rifle” …the exception, not the rule.

To me the biggest thing that trumps the blunderbuss argument is the fact that the ammo engineers use is self contained (bullet, powder, primer, and casing all as one unit). We know this because upon using the #1 ability to fire the rifle, we hear the casing hit the ground immediately after the gun is fired, if your standing on a hard surface. Blunderbuss’ do not use self contained ammo… unless you drop a handful of .22 rounds down the barrel and fire the entire whole rounds at your target… which could have interesting results… anywho, that wouldn’t be typical; generally with a blunderbuss, you just drop a handful of shot, or rocks, or broken glass, or whatever else’ll fit down the barrel so you can then propel it to your target’s general location… and doing so would not eject a casing. Therefore rifle …or any other long barrel firearm that uses self contained ammo; which does not include blunderbuss.

Dustfinger.9510:

-Blunderbuss were fired from the hip, away from the face for a very specific reason … because the powder flare came out of the back of the barrel. that flare would burn your face if fired like a modern rifle.

True story.

Dustfinger.9510:

-Blunderbuss’ were not designed for accuracy wich may validate the medium range of the engineer as opposed to the rifle warrior. … Consideringh that wariors do fire while sighting down the barrel. that they get greater distance. i conclude that they do fire rifles.

Range is one of the key components of gameplay; which is arguably the most important part of any game. All it takes to validate range is for devs to decide that a given range will provide optimal gameplay; lore tends to take the back burner when it comes to this, but I’ve beat that horse pretty thoroughly in my previous posts – skim through em if you’d like to see the whole spiel.

Dustfinger.9510:

-Before the common use of the rifle, the blunderbuss was favored for it’s effectiveness. This is because sharp shooting wasn’t highly prioritised.

Based on the facts that the weapons are called “rifles” in game, and that the ammo they fire is self contained we can infer the gun tech in GW2 easily falls into the ‘common use of the rifle’ age, in which blunderbuss’ would be inferior.

Dustfinger.9510:

-Engineers have to specifically spec into something called “rifled barrel”

That is a good argument, as it establishes the use of rifling as the exception, and not the rule. However, it doesn’t really support the blunderbuss argument, but rather the ‘engineers use shotguns, not rifles’ argument, which still ultimately supports the cause of shoulder-firing.

Another thing to consider is the the existence of “smooth bore rifles” which… aren’t rifles? I don’t know squat about those, and google is showing me a lot of shotguns and such and not really answering the question of “wth is it?” so I won’t go too far into that, but figured I’d throw the term out there just as food for thought. Maybe if I’m feeling motivated later I’ll look into this more closely, but tbh I don’t really care; smooth bore or rifled bore, it should still be fired from the shoulder.

[speculation] Perhaps a smooth bore rifle IS a shotgun, and all the folks complaining about the engineer’s rifle being a shotgun are correct, but are simply failing to realize that calling a shotgun a rifle is actually correct via this grammatical loophole? [/speculation]

…then there’s rifled shotguns :P

Dustfinger.9510:

But considering that engineers fire from the hip. that they get less distance. The need to sped into ‘rifled barrel’. And especially that they have a skill named blunderbuss, I have to conclude that their weopons operate similar to a blunderbuss. atleast the rear back flare.

Strike-through text has been addressed above, but that last bit stands out to me. Is there anything in lore you’ve found that mentions back flare? I’m curious as to why you chose to highlight that. After reading my observations mentioned earlier in this post, does back flare still sound like it’d be an issue to you? (careful not to misjudge the tone of this paragraph… curiosity can come off as condescending without verbal or facial queues, which is NOT my goal)

Dustfinger.9510:

the only arguement against this is that they are actually called rifles in game but this is easily countered by the idea that A-net didn’t want to create two specialized weopon classes for very similar weopon skins.

I hope I’ve sufficiently changed you mind on that point, at least.

Dustfinger.9510:

edit 2: i think if they changed the name from rifle to "boom stick" or "thunder stick", the arguent would stifle. Since it doesn’t imply only a rifle or only a blunderbus but some similar weopn to both tthat could lean either way

...they could, but I still think there’s enough evidence that its a weapon designed to be shoulderfired, rifle or shotgun, that folks like me still wouldn’t shut up about it. At the end of the day, we just don’t like the animation for it, so, so long as the evidence is in favor of shoulder fire, we will argue in favor of shoulder fire.

Said move should be hipfired. But it is one ability for engineers within the category of “Rifle” …the exception, not the rule.

Admittedly possible. depending on the intent.

To me the biggest thing that trumps the blunderbuss argument is the fact that the ammo engineers use is self contained (bullet, powder, primer, and casing all as one unit). ///. and doing so would not eject a casing.

This is very interesting. On one hand a casing may imply a self contained bullet. On the other hand the old engineer in the iron legion quest sais she coats her ammo in tar to make them stick and burn. So, a new theory may be that the ammo may not be self contained. if the solid shot is held in one magazine and the poweder is held in another then you could still get the ejection of a shell casing. This may also provide you the oportunity to either use one solid shot with one portion of powder for hip shot or switch to multiple shots with more powder for the blunderbus shot.

Range is one of the key components of gameplay; ///validate range is for devs to decide.

I read and enjoyed them. I guess the percieved outcome really just depends on what position we’ve already took.

That is a good argument, as it establishes the use of rifling as the exception, and not the rule. /// ultimately supports the cause of shoulder-firing.

The only practical diffrence between a shot gun and a blunderbuss (besides the preperation of the ammo) is the powderflare. We know that guns do use black powder in GW2 era as shown by the thieves abilities. if that flare came out the back it would neccesitate hip firing so it looks more and more likely that they don’t use the truest version of a blunderbuss or the truest version of a rifle.

Another thing to consider is the the existence of “smooth bore rifles” ///“wth is it?” it should still be fired from the shoulder.

The thing is, a blunderbuss is a type of smoothbore gun. But a rifle is a gun that may be rifled, or smoothbore. Muzzle loaded or breach loaded, or revolving . i was just using the distinctions already made in the theories becasue otherwise there is alot of overlap and confusion. so, the rifleing is relevant because we see there are guns without it that aren’t created for the distance that a rifled barrel gets. My position is that engineers don’t automatically start with a rifled barrel like warriors do.

Perhaps a smooth bore rifle IS a shotgun, ///grammatical loophole?

True! but not all the way true. Blackpowder, muzzle loading rifles with no rifling are also smoothbore rifles. Blunderbuss is just a very specific type of smoothbore muzzleloading gun designed to fire multiple “shot” over a single round and is muzzle loaded. Some have tried to get around the smoothbore problem by fletching ammo or making it elipticle or elongated. So…. still alot of overlap :/

Is there anything in lore you’ve found that mentions back flare? ///without verbal or facial queues, which is NOT my goal)

No no. No problem. This is a good discussion

The backflare is merely the conclusion. Even based on the evidence of “The exception” that is the blunderbuss ability, it could still stand. so, nothing in lore to substantiate it beyong the interpretation of the evidence. But since they used blunderbuss over shotgun and they don’t seem to be muzzle loaded, i figure they favor the only other diffrence between the shotgun and blunderbuss. Plus, they are hip fired and there may be a reason for that.

So, what i believe we are now looking at:
-The ammo is not all self contained becasue coating it in tar makes it stick and burn.
-it still has some sort of casing that is ejected in the operation of firing
-use of black powder
-the ability to fire multiple shot in a shotgun or blunderbuss fashion
-the ability to fire a single shot that is entirely diffrent from the blunderbuss ability as it yeilds diffrent results.
-warriors and engineers both use a form of “rifle” though they are two completly diffrent weopons as seen in their abilities.
-an engineers “rifle” is not automatically rifled.
-the “rifle” of an engineer sacrifices it’s distance that a warriors “rifle” gets by increased utility who’s operation necessitate a hip shot. because the “exception” of the blunderbuss ability would have the same powder flare as the single shot.

tldr: New theory suggests engineer doesn’t use a true blunderbuss or a true “rifle”. But rather a blackpowder amalgamation of both.

Haltus Kain.4578:

I hope I’ve sufficiently changed you mind on that point, at least.

You ahve

Dustfinger.9510:

…they could, but I still think there’s enough evidence that its a weapon designed to be shoulderfired, rifle or shotgun, that folks like me still wouldn’t shut up about it. At the end of the day, we just don’t like the animation for it, so, so long as the evidence is in favor of shoulder fire, we will argue in favor of shoulder fire.

I’ll have to try harder :P

First off firing from the hip isn’t as ineffective as ppl make it out to be, it’s just harder to master. I’ve seen plenty of “old timers” at the skeet range who can drop clays all day firing from the hip with a gun clearly designed to fire from the shoulder. Once they overcame the harder difficulty of aiming in that manner what they lose in accuracy they easily make up for in speed of target aquistion. I see the engineer as more of that veteran of the discipline who moved to an unorthodox style over the norm for the challenge and benefits to be gained from mastering it.

Obviously at max range shoulder firing is the way to go, but what looks equally stupid to me is shoulder firing a weapon when the enemy is right in your face, funny how no one seems to mention that. And I don’t know about you guys but most of my fights are spent in medium to close range where hip firing “realistically” is superior if you were to actually seek mastering hip firing…

It is a graphic effect for our class, it looks tough and cool, and I like it. The same 11 posters keep making new threads on it, trying to change it.

There is no need to change a tough and cool looking graphic to satisfy the petty complaints of a vocal minority.

The Slyfe makes a good point. I’m a Marine and have never heard of hip firing or “point shooting” being a real thing beyond old cowboy movies but apparently it’s a real thing that’s employed by militaries for close range, reflexive combat.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firing_from_the_hip

Dustfinger.9510:

The Slyfe makes a good point. I’m a Marine and have never heard of hip firing or “point shooting” being a real thing beyond old cowboy movies but apparently it’s a real thing that’s employed by militaries for close range, reflexive combat.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firing_from_the_hip

I do not think he makes a good point at all, personally. I have difficulty accepting factors in the real world as justification to make unnecessary complaints about a graphic in a game, in a game in which very little is reality based.

I mean by this whole reality argument, we need to just remove most professions skills that will not actually function in the real world. Which is most skills.

His point supported yours :P

The Slyfe.7231:

First off firing from the hip isn’t as ineffective as ppl make it out to be, it’s just harder to master. I’ve seen plenty of “old timers” at the skeet range who can drop clays all day firing from the hip with a gun clearly designed to fire from the shoulder. Once they overcame the harder difficulty of aiming in that manner what they lose in accuracy they easily make up for in speed of target aquistion. I see the engineer as more of that veteran of the discipline who moved to an unorthodox style over the norm for the challenge and benefits to be gained from mastering it.

Obviously at max range shoulder firing is the way to go, but what looks equally stupid to me is shoulder firing a weapon when the enemy is right in your face, funny how no one seems to mention that. And I don’t know about you guys but most of my fights are spent in medium to close range where hip firing “realistically” is superior if you were to actually seek mastering hip firing…

Dustfinger.9510:

The Slyfe makes a good point. I’m a Marine and have never heard of hip firing or “point shooting” being a real thing beyond old cowboy movies but apparently it’s a real thing that’s employed by militaries for close range, reflexive combat.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firing_from_the_hip

I’ve never used a firearm in a combat situation, close or long range, but having fired a decent variety of shoulder-fire guns I can identify two styles of of firing from the shoulder.

1) Probably the style most folks are thinking of in terms of this discussion. Butt of the gun resting on the shoulder; face right up next to the gun, looking down the sights, aiming.

2) Butt resting on the shoulder; but the head, instead of looking carefully down the sights, is upright looking at the target. This pretty much makes it ‘point shooting’ from the shoulder. Some loss of accuracy is to be expected in this style, but would probably be optimal for close range combat. Like hipfiring, you can choose your targets quickly and send some lead their way, but unlike hipfiring, the recoil will still be absorbed mostly by the shoulder.

Now, again, I’ve never actually been in a combat situation, but if a wave of zombies or dragons, or squirrels, or terrorists etc. were rushing toward me and I were holding a rifle with no where to run, I’d start dropping as many of them as I could, but I wouldn’t hip fire, I’d ‘point fire’ from the shoulder.

Whether or not that would be the most tactically sound decision, I have no idea, especially in comparison to hip fire, but the point is, shoulder fire can still be used in close range scenarios.

Anywho, we’ve discussed the accuracy and safety advantages of firing from the shoulder, but another thing to consider is functionality. We know that casing is ejected immediately upon firing; this means that the recoil is used to eject the casing.

This requires that the force of the recoil be distributed properly; if held against the shoulder, the gun as a whole stays relatively still when fired because the shoulder stops it from moving backward. If hipfired, there’s not nearly as much resistance to the backward motion of the gun caused by firing, which is a problem, as that can cause jams (failure to eject casing).

Check out the following vid:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ses5mZymkEs
The top of the gun, the slide, is pushed back by the recoil; the casing flies out.

Now this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jh9JhCyFFxA
Notice that when the guns are held correctly, they work! But when held in a manner in which there’s nothing to absorb the recoil, occasionally the casing gets jammed. This is because the slide isn’t pushed back as far, relative to the rest of the gun, because the entire gun is pushed back by the recoil instead of just the slide.

*also, sorry for using videos of handguns as opposed to rifles; couldn’t find a video of a rifle jam as a result of not operating the gun correctly… I don’t think many folks would be very enthusiastic to show that off on youtube, lol. Anywho, here are a few vids of rifles functioning normally; comparing to the handgun vids, you should be able to visualize how the rifles would have the same problem if action isn’t opened all the way due to the entire gun moving instead of just the action.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uybsw4dvP58
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnovh3w2qRM

Interesting. I’ve fired in combat and personally would not fire from the hip. i wasn’t trained for it and it wouldn’t feel right. But then the Marines has a long tradition of sniping. Other countries seem to train for it.

The only issue I have with the gun jam problem is that Rifles have alot of mass. the question really becomes wether or not that slide action bolt will push it around. i don’t think any modern rifle can jam from not being supported by the shoulder. i know an M-16 won’t jam because of it. The mass of the rifle is to great for the bolt to push back that significantly. Add that to the force of your hands holding the weopon and the bolt will eject the casing easy. Keep in mind in order for the handguns to jam, they had to barly hold on at all.

I also know a M-240 won’t jam from being fired one handed at the hip (Not that you ever should :P)

That makes sense, and probably explains why I wasn’t able to find said video of that problem with a rifle.

Could be a contributing factor at least; say a round has a bit less powder than normal, which would produce *just* enough force to make the action functional if shoulder fired; but would cause a jam if hipfired.

...not that that really carries any weight in the argument; at this point I’m stretching pretty far, lol, but more food for thought.

I envy the warriors and how they are able to aim down their sights like a normal person. I hope Anet really do put out a patch so we can also aim.

i hate how engineers uses rifle like shotgun. literately. all skills are shotgun. I wish it be the reverse from warriors because warriors are up close anyways. why give them a sniper when they hack and slash. heck! their long bow is pretty mid range!

They should give engineer long range attacks rather than giving us close and medium range attacks. stereotyping, warriors are brutes. shotgun suits them more. Engineers are tinker. even their tool trait, they have scope. If ArenaNet changes this, I would be more satisfied playing engineer more.

I wouldn’t mind a ‘Sniper Mode’. The way warriors use their burst skill is so radical, it’s a shame engineers have nothing like that at all!

And gosh, some very good in-depth breakdowns have been made!

Ksensei.7126:

i hate how engineers uses rifle like shotgun. literately. all skills are shotgun. I wish it be the reverse from warriors because warriors are up close anyways. why give them a sniper when they hack and slash. heck! their long bow is pretty mid range!

They should give engineer long range attacks rather than giving us close and medium range attacks. stereotyping, warriors are brutes. shotgun suits them more. Engineers are tinker. even their tool trait, they have scope. If ArenaNet changes this, I would be more satisfied playing engineer more.

All classes should have a long range option, including warriors, even though you are correct that they are generally an in-your-face class.

idk if a shotgun would be more befitting of a warrior than engineer, though… warriors are basically soldiers, and soldiers are the ones who do sniping.

I would love to see a single-target long range kit for the engineer, though! Like some kind of steampunk railgun kit or something. Lots of folks love the engineer, but don’t like to play exclusively with ground targeted AoE; a new option would definitely be welcome!

…getting a bit off topic

I love engineer, but really…It’s like I’m not even aiming before I shoot.

Aegael.6938:

You forgot to mention that hip fire looks absolutely ridiculous on the legendary rifle.

If they had more shotguns or a legendary shotgun, I the majority of people wouldn’t mind the current hip shot animation.

(Opinion) I prefer the Engineer treating the rifle as a Shot Gun. I just think they should:

-Implement a generous amount of Rifle skins that compliment the engineer profession. (Sawed off shot guns/ Double Barrel Shot guns ect)
-Change the projectile animation for Hip Shot to be more akin to a shot gun. (Regardless of the projectiles actual range.)
-Perhaps change Hip Shot’s effect so that it does more damage the closer you are to your targets.
-Perhaps let Hip Shot have a small Cone Area effect damage to targets at very close range to the Engineer.

i actually like the hip shot animation, it’s like firing a shotgun

I’m in favor of either of these:
1) Make the rifle an actual rifle, change the animation to aimed shot
2) Just drop the act and change the name to Blunderbuss. It’s our 3rd skill.
3) Change the entire skill to reflect that they’re actually shotguns, not rifles

The real problem is the fact that ANet lumps completely different guns into “Rifle”. There are actual Rifle such as “Avenger Rifle”, Blunderbuss such as “Bronze Rifle”, and there are shotguns with bayonet such as “Adamant Guard Rifle”, or a more honest one, “Pact Shotgun”

I think we should hold our rifles like this lol:

I don’t think you understand A-net’s intention)

[img]http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q110/Schultz98/rambo.jpg[/img]