Guild Wars 2

Ok. I spent a fair amount of time during the day reading these forums, when i should probably be working, and I’ve come too an amazing discovery.

About 75% of you lot shouldn’t even play Engineer. Engineer is my only character. I LOVE every single thing about it. It seems to me that a very large percentage of this forums is people kittening about how they should change the class. I’m not talking bugs, or suggestions for fixes, I’m talking about people who are suggesting completely overhauling and changing the class to suit THEIR PERSONAL PLAY STYLES!

Example:
- “The rifle isn’t long range enough. I rolled Engineer to play a ranged class and i have to get mid ranged to use my rifle.”
NEWS FLASH: This is how it was designed! If you want to play a long range class go roll a Ranger or Rifle Warrior. A lot of people say they should rename it shotgun, and i agree, but don’t you people see if devs intended for it to be a long range weapon they would of made it that way in the first place?

I could write more but whatever, this makes my point.

I don’t know if its just because I really love the way they have created it, and maybe i got lucky and i happen to have the same play style as whoever designed the Engineer, but to me it seems too many of you are too busy complaining about how they should change it suit your play style rather than adjusting your play style to suit the Engineer.

I mean really what’s not to love? I roll with Rifle, ‘nades, Flame thrower and either Elixir Gun or Elixir B for PvE and i can see no situation where i would need anything else. Yes a few skills could be tweaked but this is not because i don’t like how they work, its because they just don’t work! (#2 on FT for example)

Target is far away? Throw grenades like a madman! Target is close? Melt faces with the FT! Need control? Whip out the rifle, #4 is EPIC knock back and has great synergy with FT #2 (try it!).

Rant over. I guess i just love Engineer the way it is.

Frankly, I love playing a medium to short range engineer. In WvWvW, I love love love the flamethrower (can knock people off of gates, for one thing), and playing elixer heavy makes you very, very durable (assuming you have the toughness to back it up).

Great you love your engineer.

But rahter weak that you can not grasp the concept of liking something and still wanting to change details about it.

Yes: someone can love an engineer but think several abilities of the flamethrower need to be redesigned.

Yes: someone can love an engineer and still want the rifle to be more long ranged than short ranged use.

etc etc.

Loving something while taking everything for granted, and even getting angry at the thought of change, is no sign of true devotion.
It’s a sign of having a narrow mind to me…

Don’t get me wrong: I really like that you love the engineer with every aspect as it is.
No sarcasm here. It’s great when somebody just loves it, no questions asked.

But did you really have to write a post insulting the more critical minds amongst us?

I really like the engineer so far.
But no: I don’t think everything is perfect.
And by all means NO: I don’t think I should ever in my life accept everything as it is, just because it happens to be like that.

Forums are for feedback.
Feedback involves giving ideas on what you see as possible improvements.
A critical mind is a sign of intelligence and insight, you might want to keep that in mind yourself.

@Kimbald

I don’t see how the rifle isn’t used for “long range” though. It has a range of 900 (1200 with rifled barrels trait) for its 1 & 2 skills, a short ranged burst damage skill (3), a gap creator (4), and an escape (5).

All of the skills are designed to deal damage and keep enemies at a distance while punishing them if they get too close.

And I am not against small tweaks (I would love it if I didn’t lose my rifle stats when I switched to flamethrower), but completely changing the skills of one of the two weapons engineers can use to accommodate people who can’t (or don’t want to) build their playstyle around the profession that actually exists in the game is just silly.

And yes, changing the focus of rifle skills is a big change, not a small tweak.

Classes exist the way they do because the creators of the game had something specific in mind when they made it. If you want the class to conform to your playstyle, you should really consider a game with an open-class character system.

I’m not being narrow minded, and i appreciate the forums are for feedback, trust me i spent A LOT of time using forums for WOW.

I have no problem with people liking something but wanting to change it, that’s called progress and is something i believe in greatly! However there is a difference between progress and completely changing a profession. I agree that some parts should be redesigned so that they work as intended, the Engineer is by no means a fully completed profession.

What i have a problem with, as stated before, is that the Engineer is obviously designed to be played in this way. Most of this forum is people complaining about the main design concept of the profession! A larger portion of this forum seems to be people wishing to change something that would completely change the design of the Engineer.

“A critical mind is a sign of intelligence and insight” I think my masters degree in Physics might also be a sign of both a critical mind and intelligence. But you know, why don’t you go ahead and passive aggressively insult some more people?
I don’t openly accept everything in life the way it is, you don’t know me, so don’t assume i do. Please.

I have gone rather defensive in my reply, and i probably come across as even angrier than before (i never meant to sound angry in the first place) but i fear you have missed the whole point of my post. My first post was not to flame people for wanting to change the profession, or to stand up and say “I accept everything, do not change it” the whole point of the post was to rant about the fact that a lot, not all, of the people on this forum are suggesting changes that completely change the concept of the profession.

@ MattyP

“And I am not against small tweaks (I would love it if I didn’t lose my rifle stats when I switched to flamethrower), but completely changing the skills of one of the two weapons engineers can use to accommodate people who can’t (or don’t want to) build their playstyle around the profession that actually exists in the game is just silly.”

This is pretty much exactly what i was trying to get at.

It all depends on what those changes are, and how good the original ideas were.

I just gave the rifle as an example, persoanlly I don’t care.

Of course professions shouldn’t be rebuild entirely just because of player demands, but don’t think all is designed perfectly either…

The OP’s post has 2 sections:

1. he loves his engineer.
This part is great, and yes: it’s feedback too. positive feedback is just as important as negative feedback.

2. he tells other they shouldn’t play an engineer when they want important changes made.
Here is where he insults critical minds.
In a game like this, very BIG changes are often made. This is not just because the developpers changed their mind on their own. It is just as much a result of players reporting mechanics that don’t work well in real situations.

There is no need for the OP to put the emphasis of his post on part 2… he could hav emade a wonderfull post just by stating part 1.

@Kimbald

I apologise if it came across that i was telling people not to play engineer, that was never my intention.

I have no problem with people wanting change to mechanics that don’t work. I too would love to see some changes suggested by members of this forums implemented, for example FT #2 having a detonate function. But this is not a BIG play style changing change. This is a tweak to a concept already implemented, not a change to the concept of the weapon or profession.

You have completely missed what i was trying to say. So i will try and simply it:

What i have a problem with is people on this forum asking devs to change the whole concept of a weapon, thus altering the profession as a whole.

Take the rifle for example: Its a mid range weapon. If you want it to be longer range you can trait it, that seems perfectly reasonable to me. However there is post after post of people complaining that it isn’t long range enough for them. Changing this and giving it the same range as the Warrior rifle for example would completely change the whole concept of the engineer. Making it long range would mean that as an engineer you would spend the whole time trying to stay at max range, turning the engineer into a ranger.

let me summarize this: you like to play a class with subpar and bugged abilities

great, so how many kits do you use in pvp or dynamic events? there is no point in using more then one (or better said, you are force to not use more then one) otherwise you get owned by conditions or instant kill combos relying on CC to be pulled of. by taking one kit you actually dont get more flexibility as regular classes able to carry two weapon sets but engineer is meant to get flexibility from kits… looks like the devs failed here. and then please tell me how it works out when you get hit by condition damage able to kill you in 3s in dynamic events without condition removal.

now the BUGS. some bugs exist since the beginning of the beta, some were even introduced in the beta, none of them get fixed despite being well known by the developers. let me tell you, not being able to use weapon stats and sigils with kits is a big disadvantage…

You seem more reasonable than your initial post and title suggested, so not going to be too cross here myself either.

I think you should just accept that some will ask for changes you don’t see the need for.
It’s their right to do so, even if those are total overhauls of basic mechanics.

Of course there is the argument of having picked a profession as it is. But that doesn’t mean that you have to take every aspect of that profession for granted.

Especially for engineers I would say: the kits really go all directions, so I can understand people suggesting very big changes to this or that kit for example. While still loving the rest of the stuff they do use for their playstyle…

I did react rather strong, but at least now that we both cleared the smoke we might actually get a constructive thread

@MattyP – it’s default range is 1000. Pistols are 900.

Rifle is my primary weapon on the engineer. I don’t like the kits much besides using grenades for AoE or walls in WvW. Right now I just use rifle skills, an evade (rocket boots, hidden pistol, etc) and elixirs picked for whatever I’m doing. Sometimes the landmine for area knockback. I just bounce all over the battlefield. Funnier than watching it hapkitten that it actually works, too.

I do find it kind of annoying when people want to make this impossible for the sake of having their sniper rifle or whatever. But I doubt that’s going to happen, so meh.

EDIT: lmao! I went to edit this thinking I’d left out a space (happen _ is) but the word filter is so stupid it actually prevents you from speaking normal English.

Turrets horribad. Mortar worst elite in game. One viable kit. Armors make me look like an emo vampire. Kits don’t scale with weapons and don’t proc sigils. The promise of what the engineer could be is what lured me to it, but after playing one up to 80 and then some, I have seen that it needs a lot of work beyond numbers changes and bug fixes to deliver on this promise. The kits is really the biggest thing for me…the idea was that in exchange for only getting 2 weapons, we got kits. Well that really hasn’t panned out at all since the one kit that is viable gives you carpal tunnel. Flamethrower is almost there but the other kits really need a lot of work.

I think that people are just making suggestions. I think that they love the idea of kits and they are trying to incorporate them in as many ways as possible, but that there are some issues to these kits. And i know that all the people who want 3 button classes are already playing thiefs, warriors and mesmers.

The remaining people are simply dumb and dont realise that if rifle was long range ONLY, you’d be getting forced to pick up certain kits and spells to make up for its glaring weaknesses. Only limiting the amount of utility and kits we can choose from.

A main weapon choice must fit with most, if not any, kit out there. If it doesnt then our main class mechanic doesnt make up for our lack of weapon swap.

Simon Sickboy.6250:

I mean really what’s not to love? I roll with Rifle, ‘nades, Flame thrower and either Elixir Gun or Elixir B for PvE and i can see no situation where i would need anything else. Yes a few skills could be tweaked but this is not because i don’t like how they work, its because they just don’t work! (#2 on FT for example)

My exact same build O_O
And i completely agree with your post

It’s great that you love engineers like me.

But come on, would people complain or even care about bugs/fixes related to the Engineer class if other people don’t love engineers as well? I have no problems with using my engineer in PvP, PvE and WvW. But don’t you want to see the engineers’ full potential when bugs are fixed?

And telling people to quit playing engineer because they are unhappy with the current bugs is over the top. WHO are you to tell people that?

@Simon and @Epicface I use the same setup aswell. What are your builds?

I agree to a degree with the OP that it feels like alot of people wants to mold the engineer to fit their playstyle. I like constructive critcism given in a mature form of feedback. But what many people have done on these forums is giving destructive feedback almost borderline whining.

What is considered as good and bad feedback is mostly in the eyes of the beholder. I only hope that Anet are competent enough to be able to absorb the right kind of feedback for the sake of the game.

Belz.9037:

@Simon and @Epicface I use the same setup aswell. What are your builds?

I agree to a degree with the OP that it feels like alot of people wants to mold the engineer to fit their playstyle. I like constructive critcism given in a mature form of feedback. But what many people have done on these forums is giving destructive feedback almost borderline whining.

What is considered as good and bad feedback is mostly in the eyes of the beholder. I only hope that Anet are competent enough to be able to absorb the right kind of feedback for the sake of the game.

I take a few minutes to glance at the other profession forums each day. I think the type of feedback is very telling about the state of each profession. Warrior, Ranger, Thief, Guardian, and Mesmer front pages are mostly build questions, some numbers buffs requests, some nerf complaints. Elementalist is this + “OMG FIX MY DOWNED #2!!” Necro and Engineer on the other hand…the front pages are disaster zones, and I think it’s a mistake to simply write this off as “whining.” Asking for numbers buffs is tame for our front page, as many of the problems are beyond numbers fixes. Our threads want brand new abilities, totally reworked kits and weapon sets, new armor, new animations, new elites, and thats on top of the complaints about bugs/nerfs/buffs you see everywhere else. When there is this kind of discrepancy between the tone of the profession specific subforums, something is very wrong.

Some of the criticism is just “I hate X” and doesn’t say how it could be improved, but even this kind of input is useful on some level and should be considered. Most people realize they aren’t skilled game designers and can only say if they like something or don’t like something. If you don’t have the time to think of a solution, but you aren’t happy with something I say its 100% fine to just say, “Hey, Anet, I think this sucks. Please do something about it.”

Some of the criticism is just “I hate X” and doesn’t say how it could be improved, but even this kind of input is useful on some level and should be considered. Most people realize they aren’t skilled game designers and can only say if they like something or don’t like something.

thats what gets me most in game forums. no matter what game you play, people usualy come up with ideas they think are great, but dont spent a second thinking about consequences or balancing issues this will cause.
“hey, wouldnt it be cool if we had an instagib attack?” ofc it would but was this serious question?

got no problem with bug reports or asking to exchange/buff a certain skill since we have plenty of those, but total game/class redesigns? i mean common people, you should know that this isnt done within a month or even possible.

achmed.6542:

Some of the criticism is just “I hate X” and doesn’t say how it could be improved, but even this kind of input is useful on some level and should be considered. Most people realize they aren’t skilled game designers and can only say if they like something or don’t like something.

thats what gets me most in game forums. no matter what game you play, people usualy come up with ideas they think are great, but dont spent a second thinking about consequences or balancing issues this will cause.
“hey, wouldnt it be cool if we had an instagib attack?” ofc it would but was this serious question?

got no problem with bug reports or asking to exchange/buff a certain skill since we have plenty of those, but total game/class redesigns? i mean common people, you should know that this isnt done within a month or even possible.

We already have a 1500 range kit. This kit is by far the highest dps the engineer has, how is a second long range kit with (one would hope) reasonable damage, and only single target hits gonna unbalance the class?

The amount of straw manning that goes on on the engineer is what I have a problem with, people try to shut down conversations with arguments about balance, and fear mongoring about current skills/weapons being replaced.

To the op the majority of threads if i remember right were asking for alternatives not replacements, a new long ranged kit not replacing the current rifle skills with longer ranged ones.

Also a arguments that our current weapons ( minus grenade kit) are long ranged are irritating. The rifle has a total 1 skill that does max damage at long range. Overload and (arguably) jumpshot is mid range, and blunderbuss is less than melee range.

Anyway bit of a rant myself there, OP I respect your opinion and get where your coming from, there feels like massive amount of negativity on this forum, disagree that long ranged alternative is class breaking.

Epicboy.8096

Simon Sickboy.6250

I mean really what’s not to love? I roll with Rifle, ‘nades, Flame thrower and either Elixir Gun or Elixir B for PvE and i can see no situation where i would need anything else. Yes a few skills could be tweaked but this is not because i don’t like how they work, its because they just don’t work! (#2 on FT for example)

My exact same build O_O
And i completely agree with your post

You can PvE with just your gun and autoattack. Who cares about PvE?

The flaws are sharply accented in more competitive environments in PvP or WvW.

And I see the OP is basically saying “Play Engineer with rifle/grenades/ft” and it’s good.

Well, what about the other several kits that are supposed to make Engineers competitive since there is no weaponswapping? What about having all that “versatility”? You know, that thing you hear about when you are busy clicking between 3 kits trying to find the right ability to use in less than a 1/4 second of reaction time in competitive environments of PvP and WvW? While another class can simply use a 2 button combo to drop you like a sack of rocks.

It is very unlikely that any class is going to be perfect on launch. The gimmicky ones are even less likely to be perfect. What you see on this forum are people giving their feedback on their experiences with the Engineer.
Even if Developers don’t post about issues we raise, doesn’t mean they aren’t reading. I’m sure these forums are a lot of help for them. If they did post and say they’d make a change, they’d get people going “OMG WHY WASN’T THIS CHANGE MADE YOU SAID IT WOULD BE” every single patch until it is released, even if the actual change is complex in nature and requires several weeks attention.
It’s also bad for class balance to change too many things at once. It may take longer to achieve a good class balance, but rather than see-sawing the class back and forth, they’re slowly applying weight to one side.

Now, as for people who demand changes, they’re deluded. The best we can do for the class we love is to suggest ideas which we think might work, and then be patient. Understand that Arena Net no doubt keep a schedule for updates, and any new ideas they like probably get put at the back of the queue. Even if it’s an idea they like, it may be several weeks or months before they can work on implimenting it into the game. Programming is not an instantaneous thing.

People also need to learn to use the search function of the forum to prevent duplicate threads. But as far as my forum experience goes, that’s an unreasonable expectation to have. People rarely have the common sense to search before they post a thread.

in this 75% im sure there are plenty of these 2 types

1. lowbie go in WvW , fight with some 80s with full exo that know how to play their class, get nuked and then come to whine engi is subpar

2. 80s with some random gears / not full exo etc. get nuked by full exo 80s that know how to play their class and then go to 1#

make sure u r at least lv 80 with gears before u judge anything

Amen. Too many idiots asking for so-called ‘buffs’ when suggesting an overhaul of a feature are actually asking for nerfs. The engineer is very solid at the moment, the only thing that is wrong with it is the amount of bugs.

Only talking about pve.

Still waiting for 90% of the skills for engi to be reliable….which they are NOT.

I quit using rifle because:
Net shot is 8/10 reliable
Blunderbuss skill is 4/10 reliable
Overcharged skill….really? I land on my butt…….enough said.
Jumpshot skill just sucks. Too slow while jumping, waaay too slow while landing and any cc will cancel it…meaning, its unreliable. Edit* I wanted to add that this skill should NOT be a targetable skill. It should automatically go attack the selected target. I waste so much time just using the skill to make it worth it.

I quit using Flamethrower because:
Skill #1: Misses a lot. It helps when you aim it with your camera but it should be more reliable.
Skill#2: For the amount of dmg it does…lol. If it was a insta kill skill…..then i would say its fine how unreliable it is. Also, it completely does NOT fit with the other flamethrower skills. Do i want to keep my targets at range or at medium distance?? The FT has personality disorders.
Skill#3: 7/10 reliable. How can I play like this?
Skill#4: Its on a extremely long cooldown for the amount of dmg it does. Which means its unreliable. This need a CD of 15 seconds MAX.
Skill#5:Only works when i stand where i put the smoke and its a really short duration skill.

Bombs: They should do more dmg than grenades since you can literally only put them at your feet. Meaning that you can only do a single task with them…..support. Their only saving grace is that you can trait for them to heal you and allies. Though they probably should heal for more.

Grenades: Arguably the best “weapon” the engi has. But also arguably the most boring and painful one too. Even then….grenades suck for single or double target dmg. A warrior 100b attack laughs at grenades when faced with 4-5 enemies at a time.

Party buffs: Random….enough said.

Anet: Fix the Engineer class please. I will be playing my Warrior in the meantime.

it’s quite hard to play as a con build engineer please buff the pistol and elixir gun

This was an absolute fail post. You suggest 75% of players should play an other profession, that they should learn to suck it up and enjoy it for what it is instead of desire to change it to make them happy. Think for a second, i’m a video game developer that wants to sell a lot of copys, should i ignore the feedback i’m given from 75% of posts?

Many of the issues are repeated constantly on these forums. Mortar, rifle, turrets, RNG are things majority of players are not happy about. Also, you speak from a speacial demographic….i can only assume your a laid back guy who isnt min/maxing so you dont care if your even half as effective as the guy next to you as long as you feel happy and entertained. Many people flocked to this game because it constantly boasts it being the first MMO to dive into the E-sport scene they even left a blog recently on how they’re trying to get this going. So…a LOT of players are going to be more critical about the ins and outs because they want something that is fun and effective at various things to combat other professions.

End point, you come off as a narrow minded rager who is against change. Not because “i’m taking it that way” but because there is no other way to take it. Great your happy with whatever it is your doing, but keep in mind…the only reason this class got to where it is NOW, is because a lot of QA and beta players complained about how things were BEFORE what you got. So basicly, you should THANK the people complaining because if it wasnt for them the class would never have evolved this far.

Great! You love your engineer! You got your point across!

Have a good day.

Kyon.9735:

And telling people to quit playing engineer because they are unhappy with the current bugs is over the top. WHO are you to tell people that?

This guy knows common sense… Just sayin’.

if i was a Game developer i surely would take feed back but not from horribad players

Sunt.6835:

if i was a Game developer i surely would take feed back but not from horribad players

How do you define “horribad” players? By what metric do you personally, measure this?

Anyway the OP has a point. It is one thing to ask for broken issues and bugs to be fixed, but every Tom, kitten, and Harry with an inflated ego that thinks he is special makes there own thread demanding “X” and “Y” changes and overhauls to the class. These threads pop up daily. At that point it is not feedback at all, it is simply overzealous whining and demanding.

I play dual pistols and elixir, I love the flexibility of the class, when I’m bored I can swap some things around and play bunker or annoying, or go super support mode. When I farm wvw jumping puzzles I have a rifle on for hard jumps and mines and net turrets for covering my back.

I’d love to see weapon stats affect kits, or some kind of auto attack for grenades, for my sore fingers, but I’m sure these quality of life changes will arrive eventually.

Overall I am enjoying the engineer very much and hope these forums become less about dissatisfaction and more about builds and tactics

The only thing engineer needs include

sigils to work on weapon kits

Flamethrower bugs need to be fixed

More weapon kits (I’d kittening love Tybalts sniper rifle as a weapon kit)

Bugs in general need to be fixed

Grenades need to be more user friendly

Tool Kit needs to be buffed

Turrets need decent stats that are indepent from yours like ranger pets

rifle skills need a rework

More boons on elixir use so we can abuse that sexy bonus damage trait

that’s about it.

EvilZombie.6801:

it’s quite hard to play as a con build engineer please buff the pistol and elixir gun

It’s hard to play as a condition-anything in this game because conditions are underpowered in pve

Dat’s 9 things you listed Tigger.

“Only” is generally used to denote a singularity.

mystaquetz.1746:

Epicboy.8096

Simon Sickboy.6250

I mean really what’s not to love? I roll with Rifle, ‘nades, Flame thrower and either Elixir Gun or Elixir B for PvE and i can see no situation where i would need anything else. Yes a few skills could be tweaked but this is not because i don’t like how they work, its because they just don’t work! (#2 on FT for example)

My exact same build O_O
And i completely agree with your post

You can PvE with just your gun and autoattack. Who cares about PvE?

The flaws are sharply accented in more competitive environments in PvP or WvW.

I care about PvE, many others do too. Who cares about PvP? (joking by the way)

I love my Engineer personally, but, I will never stop complaining about the (still) bugged problems the Engi has, and has had since BWE1, until they are actually fixed .. heck, even just acknowledging that ANet knows and intends to fix them would be a step up at this point.

Like I said though, I love the class, the asthetic and the playstyle and I don’t really want any of that changed, just the bugs fixed and some tweaks here and there (like buffing some of the kits and giving us more than “1” elite :P).

Zinwrath.2049:

This was an absolute fail post. You suggest 75% of players should play an other profession, that they should learn to suck it up and enjoy it for what it is instead of desire to change it to make them happy. Think for a second, i’m a video game developer that wants to sell a lot of copys, should i ignore the feedback i’m given from 75% of posts?

Depends on the feedback. Bugs and weak skills (lolmortar) can be tweaked without affecting what the class was intended to be, functionally and aesthetically. Other suggestions vary a lot between useful and ‘I want to do x in a game/class designed to accommodate y’. The latter should absolutely be ignored when it comes up.

If you want to go with the most popular ideas above all else, do that research before you’ve committed to a certain style, or you risk alienating the players you have successfully attracted. That sets a bad precedent. Nobody likes the idea of committing to something only to have it changed into something else unlike what they chose – it wastes the time and effort they invested in it, and you’d lose trust.

Also, 75% of posts is not indicative of 75% of players, and even if it was (and this statistic wasn’t made up, which I’m pretty sure it was) that’s still 1 in 4 players choosing to have an engineer as one of their characters, out of 8 total professions. Why is that bad?

Please refrain from making posts that do not provide any meaningful contribution to the topic at hand.

LameFox.6349:

Zinwrath.2049:

This was an absolute fail post. You suggest 75% of players should play an other profession, that they should learn to suck it up and enjoy it for what it is instead of desire to change it to make them happy. Think for a second, i’m a video game developer that wants to sell a lot of copys, should i ignore the feedback i’m given from 75% of posts?

Depends on the feedback. Bugs and weak skills (lolmortar) can be tweaked without affecting what the class was intended to be, functionally and aesthetically. Other suggestions vary a lot between useful and ‘I want to do x in a game/class designed to accommodate y’. The latter should absolutely be ignored when it comes up.

If you want to go with the most popular ideas above all else, do that research before you’ve committed to a certain style, or you risk alienating the players you have successfully attracted. That sets a bad precedent. Nobody likes the idea of committing to something only to have it changed into something else unlike what they chose – it wastes the time and effort they invested in it, and you’d lose trust.

Also, 75% of posts is not indicative of 75% of players, and even if it was (and this statistic wasn’t made up, which I’m pretty sure it was) that’s still 1 in 4 players choosing to have an engineer as one of their characters, out of 8 total professions. Why is that bad?

If you read the entire post. You would get away my message instead of argueing semantics. The point of the part you brought up (which it was the OP’s numbers not mine) is that most of the people on the forum are unhappy and should learn to deal with it or play something else. This stunts progress. Forums are for feedback and discussion. If you have a resteraunt and you have a complaint jar….and 75% of the complaints are the ham sandwhich is too dry. You can choose to ignore it defeating the entire purpose of setting up a system to take feedback…or you can assume that this is upsetting a large part of your clients and should be considered for change. Doesnt mean you need to take it off the menu, but perhaps you can be doing something better.

This holds true in this game. As i put in my post that you probably didnt read all of..the reason we have the abilitys etc that we have now is not because someone pulled it all out of their butt. The class came to where it is now due to feedback from QA and testers giving their feedback on what was upsetting them. Basicly my entire responce (which i’m repeating so you dont have to read it all) is to say …

Look, people complain because they want a better product…dont tell people not to give feedback. If it wasnt for people giving feedback what you like about this profession wouldnt exist or be polished to the degree it is.

I disagree. Read alot of the post here. People are not complaining because the want a better over all product. They complain because they have a sense of entitle ment and want the profession tailored to them specifically.

This is extremely apparent with all of the threads demanding a change t this kit, or that utility, or this trait or skill. Even when you post a reply pointing out how a specific they want changed is used by a great many, and how it is useful, they troll you and call it a garbage ability, even if the masses love it, simply because it does not fit their play style.

Feed back for a better product is one thing, but we have a forum just clutered with demands and unreasonable expectations.

@coglin

People make demands when they aren’t satisfied. Who are you to decide if their dissatisfaction is legitimate or not? You have a right to discuss the issues, not a license to engage in character assassination of anyone you disagree with, which is exactly what your “sense of entitlement” argument is. If you like engineer as is, tell us what you like about it. If someone is demanding something that would lessen your enjoyment of this profession, then tell them in a way that doesn’t attack them personally. Chances are there is a way to preserve what you like about engineer and incorporate what another person wants, all while maintaining game balance.

Wow, jump to conclusions much.

It is one thing if someone makes a thread saying I have an idea, what do you guys think.

It is another to say “such and such ability is garbage” It needs to be changed to this that and the other. Do it now Anet.

Not sure what your problem is, but it is fairly rational of me to prefer the the former over the later.

If you call that a “character assassination” you certainly have a different concept of that phrase then the average person.

It sure appears from your post that you feel there is some need to fulfill the vocal minorities demands, which is a fairly backwards reasoning if you ask me. The abilities, utilities, traits, and skills that are broke, need to be fixed, no one is arguing that. I just can’t justify your perspective that we need to change the class to suit those demanding it, while hosing the rest of us.

As I saw a Mod post on it previously saying:

Hi Everyone,

Unfortunately we have seen a lot of of threads posted on this topic.

As already explained, we are not going keep you updated about this situation every hour, or answer personally to each questions you are asking..

If the “such and such ability is garbage” comment is followed by an adjustment that would make the rest of us happier….i’m not sure how thats “hosing the rest of us”. It doesnt matter how big or small a change is. If a change is for the better it should be considered. In the end whats the harm in them suggesting this? Are you afraid arenanet will listen and add a new kit for example? Will this ruin everything you like about the profession? I dont know the answer to any of these questions. In the end i’m not upset about forum goers saying stuff they woulda done different or suggesting even the whole profession is garbage, i would prefer if they did they have some actual reasoning and a suggestion of what they would prefer to help guide everyone to an understanding of what they dont like or want. THEN if its bad arenanet can say “no”. they wont actually say no, they just wont do it (they’re not Riot Games). But in the end, it wont happen. So yea…its just an attack on people giving feedback by pretending your a moderator on what is considered good feedback.

Zinwrath.2049:

If you read the entire post. You would get away my message instead of argueing semantics. The point of the part you brought up (which it was the OP’s numbers not mine) is that most of the people on the forum are unhappy and should learn to deal with it or play something else. This stunts progress. Forums are for feedback and discussion. If you have a resteraunt and you have a complaint jar….and 75% of the complaints are the ham sandwhich is too dry. You can choose to ignore it defeating the entire purpose of setting up a system to take feedback…or you can assume that this is upsetting a large part of your clients and should be considered for change. Doesnt mean you need to take it off the menu, but perhaps you can be doing something better.

Taken directly from the OP: I’m not talking bugs, or suggestions for fixes, I’m talking about people who are suggesting completely overhauling and changing the class to suit THEIR PERSONAL PLAY STYLES!

Going with your restaurant analogy, this is sort of like receiving complaints that your ham sandwich contains ham.

Zinwrath.2049:

This holds true in this game. As i put in my post that you probably didnt read all of..the reason we have the abilitys etc that we have now is not because someone pulled it all out of their butt. The class came to where it is now due to feedback from QA and testers giving their feedback on what was upsetting them. Basicly my entire responce (which i’m repeating so you dont have to read it all) is to say …

How about we just move past the part where you assume that only someone who didn’t read your post could possibly disagree with you…

Zinwrath.2049:

Look, people complain because they want a better product…dont tell people not to give feedback. If it wasnt for people giving feedback what you like about this profession wouldnt exist or be polished to the degree it is.

The OP did not tell people not to give feedback. Suggesting that people who want a ‘complete overhaul’ of something may just not like what that thing was meant to be is not an invalid point.

No offence but i couldnt understand a couple sentances in that. If your using a translator make sure its not bing that thing sucks.

Anyway, tired of repeating myself. I can only say “feedback is valid irrigardless of whether you agree with it”. There is no rule that says “you can only suggest a change within a set of rules…anything more than that is asking too much and you should quit the game or play something else”. But like the OP some of you beleive this. I dont care if the suggestions is for a profession to shoot scary clowns out their butt that force the enemy to cry so much it leaves a water combo field….people can ask for what they want leaving arenanet to decide what they wanna consider or not.

I can repeat again “what is the harm in them making a suggestion?” and it’ll probably be dodged again.

Zinwrath.2049:

No offence but i couldnt understand a couple sentances in that. If your using a translator make sure its not bing that thing sucks.

I’m not. What parts exactly don’t you understand?

Zinwrath.2049:

Anyway, tired of repeating myself. I can only say “feedback is valid irrigardless of whether you agree with it”. There is no rule that says “you can only suggest a change within a set of rules…anything more than that is asking too much and you should quit the game or play something else”. But like the OP some of you beleive this.

My opinion isn’t based on a ‘rule’, just the reasoning I gave earlier: Nobody likes the idea of committing to something only to have it changed into something else unlike what they chose – it wastes the time and effort they invested in it, and you’d lose trust.

Nor do I actually care what people might suggest, but it does seem like if they want very drastic changes (as the OP describes) they may be trying to force themselves to play engineers when another class could be better suited to them.

Zinwrath.2049:

I dont care if the suggestions is for a profession to shoot scary clowns out their butt that force the enemy to cry so much it leaves a water combo field….people can ask for what they want leaving arenanet to decide what they wanna consider or not.

Who said they couldn’t? The OP was expressing his frustration over it, not suggesting they all be forcibly silenced.

Zinwrath.2049:

I can repeat again “what is the harm in them making a suggestion?” and it’ll probably be dodged again.

Well, there could arguably be downsides to a lot of negative responses to the class from people who simply find the concept unlike what they expected, but that would really all rely on speculation at this point. More importantly though: what does it matter if no ‘harm’ is done? People are free to find it annoying, regardless.

You are allowed to make whatever feedback you wish, regardless how rediculously game-changing it sounds. The ones who know the Engineer’s concept the best are the developpers, and they have a vision for this little maniac. They won’t simply budge away from their concept just because some player doesn’t feel like this class is what it should be like. They know how to judge between what’s reasonable and what’s not, they’re not robots simply going by votes. For instance I could suggest I wanted a kitty-launcher, a million would agree to that, but it would still not happen because it would be racist towards the Charr.

I don’t agree with the OP. Shame on you for telling people what to do.

TwiceDead.1963:

You are allowed to make whatever feedback you wish, regardless how rediculously game-changing it sounds. The ones who know the Engineer’s concept the best are the developpers, and they have a vision for this little maniac. They won’t simply budge away from their concept just because some player doesn’t feel like this class is what it should be like. They know how to judge between what’s reasonable and what’s not, they’re not robots simply going by votes. For instance I could suggest I wanted a kitty-launcher, a million would agree to that, but it would still not happen because it would be racist towards the Charr.

I don’t agree with the OP. Shame on you for telling people what to do.

Make it a cow launcher and everyone wins.

Theres already a cow launcher in the game. Watching the npc murder cows repeatedly is horrible….and horribly entertaining.

coglin.1496:

Wow, jump to conclusions much.

I didn’t jump to conclusions. You literally said the reason lots of the threads in the engineer subforum were being made was because people have entitlement issues. That is an exact example of the character assassination strategy of argument. To be fair, you are posting in a thread that is entirely based on character assassination. The OP figured that rather than spend time debating each individual thread, he would just make a thread like this that says, “All the threads that are critical of the engineer profession aren’t legitimate because they are just playing the wrong profession.”

coglin.1496:

It is one thing if someone makes a thread saying I have an idea, what do you guys think.

It is another to say “such and such ability is garbage” It needs to be changed to this that and the other. Do it now Anet.

Not sure what your problem is, but it is fairly rational of me to prefer the the former over the later.

I prefer the former over the latter as well, but I don’t disregard anyone’s feedback, not even people I disagree with. All feedback says something, and if you ignore the portions of it that annoy you then you aren’t getting an accurate picture of the communities satisfaction / dissatisfaction with the profession. I enjoy thinking of solutions to problems, but I don’t mind spending the time it takes to do that. I completely understand that most people just want to quickly leave their feedback and get back to the game. It is okay for people to just say, “Hey I think X sucks, please fix it somehow.”

It is also okay for people to communicate their disappointment with the broad theme of a profession. Not everyone watches youtube videos of all the skills before they roll a profession. Many people just see ‘Engineer’ in char creation and think, “Huh, a technology guy. Probably gets robot pets and mechanical armor. I’ll choose that one.” Then through playing the game they realize it wasn’t what they wanted, and then they are in the position of having invested time in to a profession they aren’t completely happy with. Of course they are going to communicate the difference between their expectations and reality, and that’s legitimate feedback.

Those are just hypothetical thought processes that might lead people to post the type of feedback that apparently bothers you. I’m sure people have many other reasons for posting feedback and suggestions. I personally watched the videos and saw that Engineer had a Mortar. I was very excited for this ability but then discovered that I rarely get to use it because it is short range, low damage, and is killed nearly instantly. I don’t want Engineer to be OP, but I do want to enjoy this ability so I posted my feedback. I don’t feel that I should roll a different profession just because I think this one ability is horribly iterated. At first all I could do is write that Mortar sucked, but eventually the discussion led to what I think is a good fix. The important point is that it started with purely negative and fairly demanding feedback.

coglin.1496:

If you call that a “character assassination” you certainly have a different concept of that phrase then the average person.

It sure appears from your post that you feel there is some need to fulfill the vocal minorities demands, which is a fairly backwards reasoning if you ask me. The abilities, utilities, traits, and skills that are broke, need to be fixed, no one is arguing that. I just can’t justify your perspective that we need to change the class to suit those demanding it, while hosing the rest of us.

As I saw a Mod post on it previously saying:

Hi Everyone,

Unfortunately we have seen a lot of of threads posted on this topic.

As already explained, we are not going keep you updated about this situation every hour, or answer personally to each questions you are asking..

I’m not sure where you found that dev post, but I’d like to know. I’m guessing from one of the “rifle is a shotgun and I want a real rifle” threads. I personally like the rifle as-is. If changes can be made that make the rifle haters happy, without hosing me, then thats awesome. Thats one reason to join in these discussions, to try and see if there is a fix that makes everyone happy. But more broadly, I just don’t want Anet to disregard any feedback. I don’t expect them to overhaul the rifle based on a few peoples disatisfaction, but I do expect them to learn from it.

A character assassination requires one to make a personal attack against an individuals character. I said nothing about anyone specifically, I spoke of a pattern of behavior. But feel free to falsely twist it however suites you. If you want to learn what it really means, here is a link
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/character%20assassination
If not, feel free to continue using it incorrectly.

So if it upsets you that I dislike folks “demanding” changes, I do not know what to tell you, I, like the OP, dislike the demanding of the class being changed to this or that by every other poster. What I do know is that your being mighty pretentiously suppressive to sit here and bash me for my opinion on the matter.