Guild Wars 2

…title

what do u think? is RR worth it with a high toughness build?
MM give us at 2000 toughness 200 power, and might when we have stab.

It’s going to depend on your Healing Power Super Speed/Swiftness uptime, and Stability uptime. It’ll also depend on your overall build idea (if you’re lacking sustain or damage).

One of my Scrappers takes RR because of Toolkit and the Tools line vastly increasing its sustain, but one with Juggernaut might opt for MM because of the easy might stacking and Stability access.

Rapid regeneration is terrible. Period. It has a low base and too low a healing power coefficient.

rapid regen is quite excellent in pvp and wvw.

No, it isn’t, it’s terrible. RR is atrocious. It A ) has a requirement and B ) requires 300 healing power to heal the base of backpack regenerator (117) with swiftness and has a lower coefficient overall. It is definitely not BiS in a situation where you can have might stacks or stability and lots of that is available for scrappers.

you will already have might from hgh

oh and if taking inventions, you’ll have 250 healing power

If you have 250 healing power from having regeneration what exactly do you need RR for (I presume you mean energy amplifier)? RR is definitely worse than regeneration and combined the two don’t even compare since again you need 300, not 250, to even match base backpack regenerator and if you have HGH … you have backpack regenerator’s trait line … and probably backpack regenerator. Not to mention the coefficient is higher for all of them than RR.

It’s only competitive if you’ve a lot of superspeed or are trying to truly outtank something and need as much coefficient capture as possible, but 105 @ 4% is just terrible esp. since it has a condition that is not static and permanent by nature.

dgraves, stop theorycrafting, l2p – with tons of thiefs back self-regulating defence >>> backpack regen. and no backpack regen while capping hammer (80% of time)

RR is great and for now we dont need more damage

Backpack Regenerator is only better when you both have no access to super speed and are camping kits 90+% of the time. Most players run with super speed now, since our best stunbreaker grants it, and we also get a little for free thanks to a minor in the scrapper line. Camping kits 90+% of the time is a terrible idea, and not even juggernaut builds should be doing this when played well, as you’re just gimping yourself by not making use of hammer 3-5 and the lovely window toss elixir b opens up for you.

DGraves.3720:

If you have 250 healing power from having regeneration what exactly do you need RR for (I presume you mean energy amplifier)? RR is definitely worse than regeneration and combined the two don’t even compare since again you need 300, not 250, to even match base backpack regenerator and if you have HGH … you have backpack regenerator’s trait line … and probably backpack regenerator. Not to mention the coefficient is higher for all of them than RR.

It’s only competitive if you’ve a lot of superspeed or are trying to truly outtank something and need as much coefficient capture as possible, but 105 @ 4% is just terrible esp. since it has a condition that is not static and permanent by nature.

meh they stack

Rapid regen easily. You neeed fairly good swiftness uptime though. If your build doesn’t have swiftness alltogether then go for MM.
Also its not really about being better then backpack. Though the way scrapper is being played right now its way better than backpack. Also alchemy has better alteratives than mass momentum.

It will be easier to explain this all at one time:

Self-Regulating Defense + Rapid Regeneration combo:

If you are getting hit hard enough to hit 25% of your HP at what point do you think any form of regeneration is going to save you? Really? This is self-nullifying. If you trigger SRD then RR is by nature completely and utterly useless and if you aren’t triggering SRD Backpack Regenerator is better. The scenario isn’t worth considering.

Superspeed! -> Well, for one, you have to produce superspeed in some form of considerable uptime without taking shocking speed else you kitten your hammer attacks and remove your own stability from dodge. You could go final salvo but again that’s gimmicky and if you’re specifically sacrificing your gyros to get superspeed to heal something is probably not right with the situation. It just isn’t easy to produce and creates a double gimmick. Unless you were going that path before but then you’d get more out of might to begin with.

Swiftness vs. Backpack Regenerator: Already discussed. It’s just worse. Far, far worse. That and it requires a gimmick.

MM v RR: Yes, RR will stack alongside other healing, but no that stacking effect isn’t worth it since it’s gimmick itself doesn’t add to you in any real way; I.E. swiftness isn’t going to save you if you get crippled for anything over a second and it doesn’t do anything for active defense except in PvE where you “run out of the circle” or something. Since MM requires stability and anti-CC is far better than sustain gaining the might alongside is a plus, period, there’s absolutely no loss in effectiveness by taking it and a tangible easily read gain.

Conclusion: I know about sustainability. Where you are all concerned with your DPS I am concerned with the other half of the world and the opportunity cost of survival and solo play so yeah RR is out. It’s just garbage. And for the record most people aren’t running heavy sustain anyway so taking RR in a non-sustain environment just lowers your DPS and overall effectiveness.

I really don’t know why it exists to be honest.

what game mode are you talking about dgraves?

insanemaniac.2456:

what game mode are you talking about dgraves?

Mostly WvW and PvE. I can’t speak for PvP values but generally players are either bursty or do an incredible number of stacks too quickly for regeneration in general to pull through in the healthiest settings. At least for those with a modicum of skill.

That is opinion though. In WvW roaming against a skilled group will involve single-target bursting or some nasty control if they have skill and knowledge of in/out counterplay, in PvE it’s more trouble than it’s worth to build something that really tries to manage superspeed to that degree imo for most content even when soloing. Building around a boon is also just bad planning.

DGraves.3720:

insanemaniac.2456:

what game mode are you talking about dgraves?

Mostly WvW and PvE. I can’t speak for PvP values but generally players are either bursty or do an incredible number of stacks too quickly for regeneration in general to pull through in the healthiest settings. At least for those with a modicum of skill.

That is opinion though. In WvW roaming against a skilled group will involve single-target bursting or some nasty control if they have skill and knowledge of in/out counterplay, in PvE it’s more trouble than it’s worth to build something that really tries to manage superspeed to that degree imo for most content even when soloing. Building around a boon is also just bad planning.

ok, now your opinion makes more sense. indeed, in pve, take mass momentum. in wvw, it can be a bit grayer. youre right that in a zerg or against a massively outnumbering group, regen does very little compared to hard stall and target drops, and it would be more or less a wash as to whether you want mass momentum or rapid regen.

but when you arent massively outnumbered, ill go ahead and stand by my recommendation of rapid regen. even though it doesnt seem like much, and you generally only want 1-2 sources of super speed when using it, its over the top when combined with the other 3 or 5 sources of sustain that invent/alch/scrapper engi takes.

that generally applies to pvp and small man roaming. but not if your style of roaming is to smash your face against gank squads.

DGraves.3720:

No, it isn’t, it’s terrible. RR is atrocious. It A ) has a requirement and B ) requires 300 healing power to heal the base of backpack regenerator (117) with swiftness and has a lower coefficient overall. It is definitely not BiS in a situation where you can have might stacks or stability and lots of that is available for scrappers.

I have a question about Rapid Regeneration if you’re able to answer.

I just recently crafted a Celestial set for my Engi and although I haven’t been using the Scrapper tree I’ve been considering it for Rapid Regeneration.

With Inventions and Energy Amplifier I have over 700 healing power. I knew beforehand that Rapid Regeneration had poor scaling but I’m still unsure exactly how poor. The Regeneration boon itself gives me about 250 a second. How much would Swiftness give me with Rapid Regeneration and 700 (I believe it’s at 731 exactly) healing power?

on crusader amulet in pvp, 810 healing power w/ 250 from regen:

regen ticks for 231
swiftness ticks for 137
superspeed + swiftness + regen ticks for 600 + 231
superspeed + regen ticks for 600 + 231

that puts the coefficients at .16 for superspeed and .04 for swiftness.

@ 700:
swiftness – 133
superspeed – 582

@731:
134
586

they need to fix that tooltip.

Heals in this game at level 80 are calculated by taking the base heal and adding to it your healing power mulitplied by the heals particular coefficient. They’re all on the wiki, and they’ll look something like this: amount healed = base + (healing power * coefficient). The scaling part is the coefficient in parentheses, and the higher it is the better the heal scales. For reference:

Regeneration: 130 + (0.125 * HP)
Backpack Regenerator: 117 + (0.05 * HP)
Rapid Regeneration (Swiftness): 105 + (0.04 * HP)
Rapid Regeneration (Super Speed): 470 + (0.16 * HP)
Bunker Down: 502 + (0.2 * HP)
Stimulant Supplier: 505 (0.25 * HP)
Elixir-Infused Bombs (RIP): 145 + (0.15 * HP)

Rr worked for me in wvw. Alone it seems silly low but in wvw I always have swiftness plus a regeneration flowing tack on backpack regen and mango pie it really starts to add up.being able to break away from a fight and regen like a beast has its uses.
the only tuff part for me was putting it all together while superspeed is active. But yes it Def worked very well. They are both very good traits I think . Rr I feel has more potential

On my minstrel/nomad+celestial frontline-ish WvW gear I have pretty much exact 300 hps passive regen using RR+BR and when throwing in FS and using 4 gyros I reach ~800 hps quite often.

To fully make use of the rapid regen you really need final salvo. Given that most people instead opt for elixirs/kits/turret and only 1 sneak gyro that they wont even pop manually unless forced I understand why its considered suboptimal.

Rocknull.2986:

Rr worked for me in wvw. Alone it seems silly low but in wvw I always have swiftness plus a regeneration flowing tack on backpack regen and mango pie it really starts to add up.being able to break away from a fight and regen like a beast has its uses.
the only tuff part for me was putting it all together while superspeed is active. But yes it Def worked very well. They are both very good traits I think . Rr I feel has more potential

You brought up Mango Pie. For that I want to talk about what I used to do when i was benchmarking whether something was worth it or not. Once upon a time I would convert Mango Pie into healing power coefficients and see the “match”; if the matching value was too high it wasn’t worth it.

For instance M. Pie does 85/s (iirc) so in order to get an additional 85 out of RR-swiftness you need 2,125 healing power. I… can’t say that’s a good thing. In other words all things equal if you took full healing power major gear and maxed it out in every way possible you would be barely getting more than just eating mango pie.

The purpose of this was not only to test efficiency but to test necessity. After all in order for it to work in your favor it has to A ) not be cumbersome and B ) be reasonably powerful. To prove the point to get 85 out of just basic regeneration you need 680 hp and that means you’ll get 312.5% out of the healing power if you take both of these in just the regeneration. This ignores the base of course.

Self-Regulating Defense is much better than MM in wvw. During a zergfight there are huge spikes and sometimes you have to hold out when walking through the enemys zerg or through a chokepoint. This equals 4 secs of infinitely scaling defense. Almost a neccessity for any frontline engi.

Also while you can easily have 100% swiftness uptime compared to 100% kit uptime which is stupid and will never happen. In wvw outside of solo situations you will always have swiftness anyway even if you do not skill for it thus requiering zero investment. Super speed is just the cherry on top.

Naturally you dont take defensive traits in PvE.

Literally apples and oranges, IMO.

MM= damage, requires stability to work well
RR = A bit more healing, pretty much requires superspeed.

I prefer MM in most cases, but I have recalled RR and Slick shoes toolbelt being pretty neat in keeping me up until I could get another healing turret off. 2k health means quite a bit to you when you’re almost dead— I actually don’t care for HP/s as it does nothing when you’re near full health.

Compare it to something like backpack regenerator which I never take anymore because it simply is too specific in a life or death scenario.

The poor scaling with rapid regeneration is probably intentional anyways— you shouldn’t spec around it; it also means it works perfectly fine with 0 healing power.

For pvp RR is really good because the slick shoes stun break is 4s super speed on a low cd. That’s basically a 2k heal every 25s which is nice. It’s even better when you run final salvo with 2 gyros (bulwark, and sneak). Overall I’d suggest taking it in pvp, your role honestly isn’t damage most of the time, you’re there for your sustain, gyro Rez, cc, and support.

Just my thoughts:
They are both strong in the right situations but the best choice depends on your build. If you run Elixer B with boon duration then I’d go MM as it will provide insane amounts of might (perma 25 in combat) and therefore damage as long as you compensate enough by building into other types of sustain (I.E backpack regen).
RR will be better in almost any hammer build and will be a wise decision if you aren’t utilizing BR. If you have slick shoes as a utility you may want RR for the recovery boost on stunbreaks but otherwise I’d say go with whatever you think your build would take the most advantage of.

My personal belief with this choice is if you build cele you will have a greater boost from Mass momentum as you will gain back a large amount of power as a base from the toughness to power conversion and then the extra might will buff your damage to zerk level if you combo well and have the right setup of skills. But any time you specialize in swiftness uptime and superspeed uptime or need to pack more sustain on the build then RR. But using BR will eliminate the need for RR and allow you more damage if you run alchemy in your build (yes it requires you to use kits a ton but I use 4 kit rifle so I do that anyways) but if you like the invuln then probably use RR as long as you have perma swiftness and lots of access to superspeed.

I have 554 healing power in my build (sinister cele hybrid), so I get 199+109=308 healing per second (rounded down to nearest integer value) from regen and rapid regen respectively. That’s 18507 healing per minute. Rapid regeneration simply gets better the longer the fight is provided you have good regeneration and swiftness uptime, which with defender runes and elixir b I have plenty of both. Obviously this is from a WvW perspective, take the extra power in PvE if you want.

Jugglemonkey.8741:

I have 554 healing power in my build (sinister cele hybrid), so I get 199+109=308 healing per second (rounded down to nearest integer value) from regen and rapid regen respectively. That’s 18507 healing per minute. Rapid regeneration simply gets better the longer the fight is provided you have good regeneration and swiftness uptime, which with defender runes and elixir b I have plenty of both. Obviously this is from a WvW perspective, take the extra power in PvE if you want.

In my game how much healing you get in a minute doesn’t matter when you take a hit worth more than a quarter of your HP in an instant. You know what gets better the longer the fight? Sustain. In general. You know what doesn’t get better the longer the fight? Your odds of survival when you get hit for more than 308 damage.

DGraves.3720:

Jugglemonkey.8741:

I have 554 healing power in my build (sinister cele hybrid), so I get 199+109=308 healing per second (rounded down to nearest integer value) from regen and rapid regen respectively. That’s 18507 healing per minute. Rapid regeneration simply gets better the longer the fight is provided you have good regeneration and swiftness uptime, which with defender runes and elixir b I have plenty of both. Obviously this is from a WvW perspective, take the extra power in PvE if you want.

In my game how much healing you get in a minute doesn’t matter when you take a hit worth more than a quarter of your HP in an instant. You know what gets better the longer the fight? Sustain. In general. You know what doesn’t get better the longer the fight? Your odds of survival when you get hit for more than 308 damage.

You’re losing minimal dmg by taking rapid regeneration over it that the 100+ regen of rapid regeneration is going to be more beneficial, especially in conjunction with slick shoes it’s an extra 1k hp every 10 seconds, and 2.5k hp every 5 seconds from slick shoes. And so please answer me this if this kind of healing is not as good as having might on stab, which can just be corrupted in the necro corruption fest, with only a 200 boost to power at max? That power won’t save you, the regneration from RR will though and it’l keep you in the fight way longer, so you can put out more dmg as well.

Furthermore, the regeneration actually will save you for the next incoming burst, since you’ll have more HP, whereas the extra damage won’t do squat.

Twigifire.8379:

Furthermore, the regeneration actually will save you for the next incoming burst, since you’ll have more HP, whereas the extra damage won’t do squat.

I want to focus on this.

Why do you believe that the weakest regenerative ability the Engineer has by miles will save you? Realistically one thousand HP every 10s, or it’s true hps of just 100, isn’t … meaningful. At all. You will die to basic autoattacks from a Nomad rifle warrior at that rate.

Between the two it isn’t that the might will save you but that the rapid regeneration will not save you; it’s the only thing it’s supposed to do and it just won’t do it. Ever.

DGraves.3720:

Rocknull.2986:

Rr worked for me in wvw. Alone it seems silly low but in wvw I always have swiftness plus a regeneration flowing tack on backpack regen and mango pie it really starts to add up.being able to break away from a fight and regen like a beast has its uses.
the only tuff part for me was putting it all together while superspeed is active. But yes it Def worked very well. They are both very good traits I think . Rr I feel has more potential

You brought up Mango Pie. For that I want to talk about what I used to do when i was benchmarking whether something was worth it or not. Once upon a time I would convert Mango Pie into healing power coefficients and see the “match”; if the matching value was too high it wasn’t worth it.

For instance M. Pie does 85/s (iirc) so in order to get an additional 85 out of RR-swiftness you need 2,125 healing power. I… can’t say that’s a good thing. In other words all things equal if you took full healing power major gear and maxed it out in every way possible you would be barely getting more than just eating mango pie.

The purpose of this was not only to test efficiency but to test necessity. After all in order for it to work in your favor it has to A ) not be cumbersome and B ) be reasonably powerful. To prove the point to get 85 out of just basic regeneration you need 680 hp and that means you’ll get 312.5% out of the healing power if you take both of these in just the regeneration. This ignores the base of course.

So mango pie is more bang for your buck? Or healing power sucks? Im sorry man but your almost to smart to talk to . I know some people like this so i know it is better to be patient and learn then to criticize and objectify. So what the hell u talkin about? Seriously u lost me a little.

So we can pretty reliably get 800+hp/sec burst heal and more like 300hp/sec semi passive play and this is while still going balls to the wall damage.

MM will give you a good power boost if you are running high toughness but I feel toughness is really lacking use or missing all together in current game types (pve,pvp/wvw)

OP just make the best build in the world using MM and Juggy and fire arms. do it!

In the line of keeping up regen, without RR it is possible to easily regen 500+ hps. So it’s not like you lack sustain at all by going into MM. MM in the end does give you more damage and if you play smart you won’t really need any more sustain than what you will already have. But again my opinion is if you use slick shoes RR may be better for you just so you have the extra regen to help deal with stun damage combos. Outside of that MM will be better every time

DGraves.3720:

Twigifire.8379:

Furthermore, the regeneration actually will save you for the next incoming burst, since you’ll have more HP, whereas the extra damage won’t do squat.

I want to focus on this.

Why do you believe that the weakest regenerative ability the Engineer has by miles will save you? Realistically one thousand HP every 10s, or it’s true hps of just 100, isn’t … meaningful. At all. You will die to basic autoattacks from a Nomad rifle warrior at that rate.

Between the two it isn’t that the might will save you but that the rapid regeneration will not save you; it’s the only thing it’s supposed to do and it just won’t do it. Ever.

You’ll die but you’ll take a whole heap more hits. And it does save people all the time. Backpack regenerator is in the same tier and is sub-par, yet some people still take it because of that extra sustain. If you’ve fought some decent players or been in 1vX scenarios you’d know that this sustain is paramount to ideal performance.

Twigifire.8379:

DGraves.3720:

Twigifire.8379:

Furthermore, the regeneration actually will save you for the next incoming burst, since you’ll have more HP, whereas the extra damage won’t do squat.

I want to focus on this.

Why do you believe that the weakest regenerative ability the Engineer has by miles will save you? Realistically one thousand HP every 10s, or it’s true hps of just 100, isn’t … meaningful. At all. You will die to basic autoattacks from a Nomad rifle warrior at that rate.

Between the two it isn’t that the might will save you but that the rapid regeneration will not save you; it’s the only thing it’s supposed to do and it just won’t do it. Ever.

You’ll die but you’ll take a whole heap more hits. And it does save people all the time. Backpack regenerator is in the same tier and is sub-par, yet some people still take it because of that extra sustain. If you’ve fought some decent players or been in 1vX scenarios you’d know that this sustain is paramount to ideal performance.

No, you won’t. Unless “whole heap” = one more through dumb luck? Also, backpack regenerator is the better option not only for a higher base and coefficient but because it doesn’t have a hindering gimmick and no one can force you out of it. Boon strip? You’re done. It’s easily countered, it’s got a short-lived “sweet spot” that isn’t really maintainable and requires too much to maintain (superspeed) and the swiftness side is just terrible plus one really popular way to keep swiftness is to swap kits thus the point.

Also, I know a lot about sustain. This is kitten sustain. That’s about it. I mean you can dance around it all you want but it’s not BiS in any sense even without running kits; you’d be better off just giving yourself actual regeneration which you can do easily with a medkit swap and pressing 1 or even better just picking up a kit after a crit if you’re playing tanky with bunker down.

Rocknull.2986:

DGraves.3720:

Rocknull.2986:

Rr worked for me in wvw. Alone it seems silly low but in wvw I always have swiftness plus a regeneration flowing tack on backpack regen and mango pie it really starts to add up.being able to break away from a fight and regen like a beast has its uses.
the only tuff part for me was putting it all together while superspeed is active. But yes it Def worked very well. They are both very good traits I think . Rr I feel has more potential

You brought up Mango Pie. For that I want to talk about what I used to do when i was benchmarking whether something was worth it or not. Once upon a time I would convert Mango Pie into healing power coefficients and see the “match”; if the matching value was too high it wasn’t worth it.

For instance M. Pie does 85/s (iirc) so in order to get an additional 85 out of RR-swiftness you need 2,125 healing power. I… can’t say that’s a good thing. In other words all things equal if you took full healing power major gear and maxed it out in every way possible you would be barely getting more than just eating mango pie.

The purpose of this was not only to test efficiency but to test necessity. After all in order for it to work in your favor it has to A ) not be cumbersome and B ) be reasonably powerful. To prove the point to get 85 out of just basic regeneration you need 680 hp and that means you’ll get 312.5% out of the healing power if you take both of these in just the regeneration. This ignores the base of course.

So mango pie is more bang for your buck? Or healing power sucks? Im sorry man but your almost to smart to talk to . I know some people like this so i know it is better to be patient and learn then to criticize and objectify. So what the hell u talkin about? Seriously u lost me a little.

So we can pretty reliably get 800+hp/sec burst heal and more like 300hp/sec semi passive play and this is while still going balls to the wall damage.

MM will give you a good power boost if you are running high toughness but I feel toughness is really lacking use or missing all together in current game types (pve,pvp/wvw)

OP just make the best build in the world using MM and Juggy and fire arms. do it!

The idea behind converting is simple:

If you take a base (that is, something you can have up most if not all the time) regeneration and convert it into a mango pie you can see how effective your points are spent. “If it takes 2,125 healing power to just get a mango pie out of this skill it’s probably not a good skill.” is the simplest conclusion.

You can do this with anything including sigils and whatnot like +5% damage can be converted into power and +7% critical strike into precision, etc. It basically tells you how much you are adding to your limited pool of stats that you control and how well and efficiently you are spending them. Obviously it’s inefficient to use RR with swiftness because just a basic mango pie beats it with no problem and it has a gimmick that can be countered.