Guild Wars 2

Flame jet hits 10 times. It can hit 3 targets.
Targets have retaliation that hits for 300.
10 * 3 * 300 = 9000 retaliation damage
It’s too much!

Solution:
Flame jet retaliation damage reduced by 90%
(10 * 3 * 300) * 0.1 = 900 retaliation damage

Better: Don’t use flamethrower in a zerg?

The autoattack of the Flamethrower is very weak anyways, no need to use it inside a WvW Zerg. You are much better off making use of the Bomb Kit (in the melee train) or Grenade Kit (when thrown at the right enemies which is not the melee train). I don’t think this ability should change like that although having some increased damage on the flame jet’s autoattack wouldn’t be that bad.

I believe there was an idea a while back of someone talking about a trait that reduces the damage you take by Retaliation. You can add it into Inventions as Grandmaster so if you wish to have it, you will lose on some damage but get that reduction making it a good one for a Zerg orientated Engineer that either uses the Grenade Kit or Flamethrower.

Let’s call it… Metal Armor? :P

Or… ooooor maybe you should watch out for things like retal and stop attacking?
I’m not trying to be condescending, but there’s supposed to be things you should be careful about, you shouldn’t just spam buttons mindlessly and not look at the screen.

Just buff retaliation a bit more and give it a CD of 1 sec. This would also be very good for confusion to make it fair for fast attacks and balance it a bit. Also a huge buff for pve where it sux.

And it would destroy the point of retaliation.

gonna quote myself from this thread
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/Idea-for-Retaliation/first#post4556001

Arantheal.7396:

yolo swaggins.2570:

I would think giving retal kitten CD per tick would keep Retal effective while removing it’s potency vs. multihit attacks.

sadly it would break retaliation.
its base-design is simply not suited for gw2’s combat system, especially for the hit detection.

lets say you give it an internal cd of 1 sec, while it still deals the same amount of damage
[198 + [0.075 * Power]]*0.67 (the -33% are applied for wvw and pvp only)
that means that once per second, some player, somewhere around you will be dealt a insignificant amount of damage to, retal goes on internal cd, and all the other attacks from people around you, affect you unpunished.

just giving it 1 second internal cd flat will break retal all together.

another common argument is “welp, just deal retal once per skill”
this does not work as well, for the following reasons.
-> retal is a boon, therefore acting on a player itself.
-> to recognize a single skill as part of a chain it would need to perform a check
IF it is a chained skill (therefore needs access to a database, and search it for each hit received)
IF it already dealt damage against this skill (therefore needs a internal flag-system and “memory”)
IF it already dealt damage against this skill, originated from the same player (therefore needs to check the player ID, needs a further internal flag and further memory)

considering that the servers are already crushing under the heavy load of the weird hit-detection ad damage-calculation of gw2, this alone could cause a MASSIVE lag-fest even in spvp small-scale scenarios.

the problem we have currently is that the mechanic to apply retal-dmg is so simple, that it exploits itself with the weird hit-detection of channeled skills.

>player deals a “hit” (direct damage) against a opponent
>opponent checks if he has retal
>IF yes
>> opponent runs this formula: [198 + [0.075 * Opponent Power]]*0.67 == “x” (in wvw/pvp)
>>opponent deals “x” damage to the source of the hit
>IF no
>nothing happens

tl;dr:
- 1sec internal cd does not solve the problem because retal becomes worthless
- skill-differentiation breaks the server
wat do?

and also this

Arantheal.7396:

Welp, retal could work on various, different modes and still be worthwhile.
Option one:
retal ticks aoe dmg on up to 5 targets within a 360 range each second for the same base-damage as 2 stacks of bleed would with same stats / modifiers. The pulse can be dodged
effect:
-retal stays viable in zergs (multiple, overlaying auras, but with a target-cap)
-running into a retal-buffed blobb becomes an even worse idea
-retal does not punish attacks anymore, but staying in vincinity to the buffed opponent.
-this boon operates on a more “believable” mechanic now (“oh, I threw a grenade 2 seconds ago… how did this magic recognize me as the source… yea, right… magic…”)

Option two:
hitting a target with retal gives you a “new” condition. this condition can not excel the duration of 1 second. Each time you hit your target, the condition gets reseted to 1 second. It’s duration can not be altered by +/- condi-duration modifiers. As long as you have it on you, you receive as much damage as burning would deal each second.
effects:
- retal still affects everyone who hits you on any range
- all attacks get punished equally
- workload on the server gets reduced a lot (only hit detection, no more damage-calculations for each hit)

option three:
retal only deals xx% of the received damage (set the percentage to somethng you deem as “balanced”)
effects:
-channeled attacks get punished equally to one-hit-high-damage attacks
-tanky / condi – setups will tend to be less punished by retal
-glasscannon / power – setups will tend to be heavier punished by retal
- hitting tanky targets is less punished than bursting squishy ones.

oxtred.7658:

Better: Don’t use flamethrower in a zerg?

Fail.

Retaliation needs to change.

Flame jet only need be balanced, fewer hits per second but more skill power for the same final damage output.

Believe me, it is not a flame-jet balance problem.
there are many channeled skills throughout the game and all get disproportionally high punished by retaliation.
The current mechanic of retaliation is simply a design flaw that did not got thought through to the end by the game-designers in the first place.

It already got nerfed once when the -33% damage modifiers were introduced to wvw and pvp, still that just pushed the core of the problem around, never addressing it directly.

Perhaps it does need to be looked at for channeled, skills. The Flame Thrower’s “Flame Jet” auto in particular, since it hits so very fast. But a 90% nerf is without question going too far.

Retaliation is designed specifically to discourage this kind of AoE spamming stuff. Knowing when to attack and when to hold off is part of the skill factor and subsequent appeal of GW2 gameplay. Reducing Retaliation damage, or adding an internal cooldown would, in my opinion, diminish the boon’s efficacy in providing this intended effect on gameplay.

I think the best way to reasonably attempt solving this particular issue would be to somewhat reduce the hit rate of Flame Jet, whilst adjusting the damage of the auto relatively.

solves the problem for flamejet.
keeps the problem for nades.
and for unload
and for RF
and for a good chunk of other skills as well.

what is more efficient?
fixing a poorly designed mechanic or altering all channeled skills in the game?

What about 83% reduction then?

Flame jet retaliation damage reduced by 83%:
(10 * 3 * 300) * 0.17 = 1530 retaliation damage after full channel from 3 targets

Compared to bomb kit:
Bomb hits 5 targets that retaliate for 300:
(5 * 300) = 1500 retaliation damage

What about 100% reduction and 50% chances on crit to kill anyone in 10k range, along with a perma superspeed boost and invulnerability? Sounds fair.

Xyonon.3987:

Just buff retaliation a bit more and give it a CD of 1 sec. This would also be very good for confusion to make it fair for fast attacks and balance it a bit. Also a huge buff for pve where it sux.

I come from the mesmer community to deliver this message: No.