Requesting PVE dungeon build
Full Rabid, 30 in Explosions, put the rest of the points wherever you want. If you want to go full glass cannon put 30 in Firearms and 10 in either Alchemy or Tools. For sigils, either double up on Earth sigils or go Earth/Agony to maximize bleed duration.
Grenades no longer really do much in the way of direct damage so condition damage is the way to go, especially with the massive condition buff last patch.
Full Rabid, 30 in Explosions, put the rest of the points wherever you want. If you want to go full glass cannon put 30 in Firearms and 10 in either Alchemy or Tools. For sigils, either double up on Earth sigils or go Earth/Agony to maximize bleed duration.
Grenades no longer really do much in the way of direct damage so condition damage is the way to go, especially with the massive condition buff last patch.
Condition buff? what exactly did they change with conditions O_o?
they more then doubled the chance for the trait shrapnel to activate.
However, to suggest its more then direct damage is silly and flat out wrong.
Especially in a dungeon, where bleeds are capped at 25 from all sources.
And using shrapnel grenades, with shrapnel trait will nearly cap 25 bleeds all by yourself.
they more then doubled the chance for the trait shrapnel to activate.
However, to suggest its more then direct damage is silly and flat out wrong.
Especially in a dungeon, where bleeds are capped at 25 from all sources.
And using shrapnel grenades, with shrapnel trait will nearly cap 25 bleeds all by yourself.
To suggest it is less than direct damage is silly and flat-out wrong. Do the math.
And yeah, bleed capping is the biggest problem. Nonetheless it’s still way more than anything you’ll ever get with direct damage on grenades.
they more then doubled the chance for the trait shrapnel to activate.
However, to suggest its more then direct damage is silly and flat out wrong.
Especially in a dungeon, where bleeds are capped at 25 from all sources.
And using shrapnel grenades, with shrapnel trait will nearly cap 25 bleeds all by yourself.To suggest it is less than direct damage is silly and flat-out wrong. Do the math.
And yeah, bleed capping is the biggest problem. Nonetheless it’s still way more than anything you’ll ever get with direct damage on grenades.
grenade 1 at .33.
is still.
.33* 920average weapon damage* 2700power/2600=315.3 (7 stacks of might hgh, and + 250 bloodlust, 245 cond from might.)
315.3* 1.1* 1.05* 1.04* 1.05* 1.05= 417.5
(10% explosion, 5% not full end, 4% for 4 boons, 5% force,5% rune of str)
417.5+443=650 average damage.
50% crit chance with fury. 112% damage crits. hrm. zerkers does need more crit, should swap some stats for higher dps. 250 prec, would be better then 250 power here.
650×24 stacks of vul=807 average damage
3 grenades per .85s, 2420 per .85s, or 2831 dps.
Shrapnel is .55 per, 5s cd, and 3 15s bleeds.
1222 average per, or 3666 on a throw. 5s cd
1912+551=2463 bleed over 15s.
Bear in mind, this is versus a 2600 armor target.
Rabid. 1161 power, 1906 prec, 2401 cond, 7might, lets give this one 250 cond sigil, 5% force still rune of str still 60% damage crits
Shrapnel trait 15s bleed 3 per throw.
42.5+.05cond=120/s. 15s 1800 per bleed. 270 average per grenade, 810 per throw
171 direct, 222 average with crit.
275 av with 24 vul.
825.8 per 85s. 966 dps
810 bleed per throw.
shrapnel grenade
226damage, 285 with traits, 370 ave with crit, 459 with vul,
1378 av per throw 5s cd
5400 bleed (1800×3)
1 shrapnel, 5 grenade 1
Zerker,
15766 direct, 2463 bleed
18229 total.
rabid
5507 direct, 9450 bleed
14957 total
Barrage adds more direct damage.
Discharge adds more direct damage.
Swapping out some power for prec adds more direct damage.
Attacking a lower armored target adds more direct damage.
Direct damage simply scales better, and has more things that can buff its damage.
10% to grenades, 10% scholar, or 5% rune of str. 5% end is not full, 10% end IS full, 1% per boon, etc. Vulnerability 25% damage to direct only. 5% force sigil.
(edited by Casia.4281)
they more then doubled the chance for the trait shrapnel to activate.
However, to suggest its more then direct damage is silly and flat out wrong.
Especially in a dungeon, where bleeds are capped at 25 from all sources.
And using shrapnel grenades, with shrapnel trait will nearly cap 25 bleeds all by yourself.
So what runes/sigils/traits would you suggest with a dd build?
they more then doubled the chance for the trait shrapnel to activate.
However, to suggest its more then direct damage is silly and flat out wrong.
Especially in a dungeon, where bleeds are capped at 25 from all sources.
And using shrapnel grenades, with shrapnel trait will nearly cap 25 bleeds all by yourself.To suggest it is less than direct damage is silly and flat-out wrong. Do the math.
And yeah, bleed capping is the biggest problem. Nonetheless it’s still way more than anything you’ll ever get with direct damage on grenades.
grenade 1 at .33.
is still.
.33* 920average weapon damage* 2700power/2600=315.3 (7 stacks of might hgh, and + 250 bloodlust, 245 cond from might.)
315.3* 1.1* 1.05* 1.04* 1.05* 1.05= 417.5
(10% explosion, 5% not full end, 4% for 4 boons, 5% force,5% rune of str)
417.5+443=650 average damage.
50% crit chance with fury. 112% damage crits. hrm. zerkers does need more crit, should swap some stats for higher dps. 250 prec, would be better then 250 power here.
650×24 stacks of vul=807 average damage
3 grenades per .85s, 2420 per .85s, or 2831 dps.Shrapnel is .55 per, 5s cd, and 3 15s bleeds.
1222 average per, or 3666 on a throw. 5s cd
1912+551=2463 bleed over 15s.Bear in mind, this is versus a 2600 armor target.
Rabid. 1161 power, 1906 prec, 2401 cond, 7might, lets give this one 250 cond sigil, 5% force still rune of str still 60% damage crits
Shrapnel trait 15s bleed 3 per throw.
42.5+.05cond=120/s. 15s 1800 per bleed. 270 average per grenade, 810 per throw
171 direct, 222 average with crit.
275 av with 24 vul.
825.8 per 85s. 966 dps
810 bleed per throw.
shrapnel grenade
226damage, 285 with traits, 370 ave with crit, 459 with vul,
1378 av per throw 5s cd
5400 bleed (1800×3)1 shrapnel, 5 grenade 1
Zerker,
15766 direct, 2463 bleed
18229 total.
rabid
5507 direct, 9450 bleed
14957 totalBarrage adds more direct damage.
Discharge adds more direct damage.
Swapping out some power for prec adds more direct damage.
Attacking a lower armored target adds more direct damage.Direct damage simply scales better, and has more things that can buff its damage.
10% to grenades, 10% scholar, or 5% rune of str. 5% end is not full, 10% end IS full, 1% per boon, etc. Vulnerability 25% damage to direct only. 5% force sigil.
http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/77313-engineer-dps-calculations/
I can’t be bothered to make sense of whatever you tried to write there. Here:
http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/77313-engineer-dps-calculations/
This is pre-patch, too. Note how pre-buff grenades is already way more damage even than pre-nerf grenades.
they more then doubled the chance for the trait shrapnel to activate.
However, to suggest its more then direct damage is silly and flat out wrong.
Especially in a dungeon, where bleeds are capped at 25 from all sources.
And using shrapnel grenades, with shrapnel trait will nearly cap 25 bleeds all by yourself.To suggest it is less than direct damage is silly and flat-out wrong. Do the math.
And yeah, bleed capping is the biggest problem. Nonetheless it’s still way more than anything you’ll ever get with direct damage on grenades.
grenade 1 at .33.
is still.
.33* 920average weapon damage* 2700power/2600=315.3 (7 stacks of might hgh, and + 250 bloodlust, 245 cond from might.)
315.3* 1.1* 1.05* 1.04* 1.05* 1.05= 417.5
(10% explosion, 5% not full end, 4% for 4 boons, 5% force,5% rune of str)
417.5+443=650 average damage.
50% crit chance with fury. 112% damage crits. hrm. zerkers does need more crit, should swap some stats for higher dps. 250 prec, would be better then 250 power here.
650×24 stacks of vul=807 average damage
3 grenades per .85s, 2420 per .85s, or 2831 dps.Shrapnel is .55 per, 5s cd, and 3 15s bleeds.
1222 average per, or 3666 on a throw. 5s cd
1912+551=2463 bleed over 15s.Bear in mind, this is versus a 2600 armor target.
Rabid. 1161 power, 1906 prec, 2401 cond, 7might, lets give this one 250 cond sigil, 5% force still rune of str still 60% damage crits
Shrapnel trait 15s bleed 3 per throw.
42.5+.05cond=120/s. 15s 1800 per bleed. 270 average per grenade, 810 per throw
171 direct, 222 average with crit.
275 av with 24 vul.
825.8 per 85s. 966 dps
810 bleed per throw.
shrapnel grenade
226damage, 285 with traits, 370 ave with crit, 459 with vul,
1378 av per throw 5s cd
5400 bleed (1800×3)1 shrapnel, 5 grenade 1
Zerker,
15766 direct, 2463 bleed
18229 total.
rabid
5507 direct, 9450 bleed
14957 totalBarrage adds more direct damage.
Discharge adds more direct damage.
Swapping out some power for prec adds more direct damage.
Attacking a lower armored target adds more direct damage.Direct damage simply scales better, and has more things that can buff its damage.
10% to grenades, 10% scholar, or 5% rune of str. 5% end is not full, 10% end IS full, 1% per boon, etc. Vulnerability 25% damage to direct only. 5% force sigil.http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/77313-engineer-dps-calculations/
I can’t be bothered to make sense of whatever you tried to write there. Here:
http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/77313-engineer-dps-calculations/This is pre-patch, too. Note how pre-buff grenades is already way more damage even than pre-nerf grenades.
wrong math, wrong traits. take your pick.
Claiming hip shot only does 603 dps, while explosive shot does 323dps should have given you a hint something was wrong with his math.
wrong math, wrong traits. take your pick.
Claiming hip shot only does 603 dps, while explosive shot does 323dps should have given you a hint something was wrong with his math.
Me being wrong about anything?
Now THAT is the silliest thing I’ve heard all day.
they more then doubled the chance for the trait shrapnel to activate.
However, to suggest its more then direct damage is silly and flat out wrong.
Especially in a dungeon, where bleeds are capped at 25 from all sources.
And using shrapnel grenades, with shrapnel trait will nearly cap 25 bleeds all by yourself.So what runes/sigils/traits would you suggest with a dd build?
Well we have a few choices.
The math I showed was based on an HgH build. with runes of str. Which are +165 power, +20% might duration, and +5% damage with might up. this should give you 7-9 stacks of might perma, self buffed. more with allies. this is up all the time.
Runes of the scholar is 165 power, and 10% damage when hp is over 90%. more damage, if you can stay topped off. but you lose it, if you take pretty much any hit.
I think there is a fury version as well, which might be more ideal for the 30 tools builds, not hgh.
sigils. rifle vs pistol first.
Toolbelt skills scale off your main weapon. rifle hits 15% harder then pistols. barrage will hit 15% harder with rifle, then pistols, innately.
Rifle however, only has 1 sigil, pistols 2.
Either case, if you want to max damage, you will need to swap weapons.
1 bloodlust, or 10 prc per kill sigil to stack 250 power, or 250 prec. I did the math with 250 power, but you might have noted I stated, I think that build needs more crit.
30 explosives gives 300 power. might gives power and cond damage. zerker is power and crit damage heavy. has crit, but only 45% without fury. I feel that should be higher, and as such, crit food, or 250 prec is more ideal.
5% force is your main sigil. Using a rifle will give you much higher targeted damage, when not using grenades, for the highly mobile fights, as well as make your barrage hit much harder. while pistols will give 2 sigils. in that case. 5% force, and sigil of battle. while stacking the 250 prec or power buff.
Traits.
30 explosives. grenadier, explosive powder 10% damage, and empowering end. you dodge pretty often.
alch or tools. a real choice. tools if you are getting might from allies will be more dps.
10% damage full end especially, as well as +30% crit damage.
adrenal, kit, discharge
If alch, hgh, 409, 20% cooldown. lots of utility, obviously, less raw damage. more self reliant.
skills,
if hgh, elixir H, B, R, grenades. R is mostly for its raw utility. if you wish, C for more might stacking instead.
If tools, medikit, grenades, rocketboots or R, TK. (throw wrench is very high damage, and should be in your rotation in this case)
wrong math, wrong traits. take your pick.
Claiming hip shot only does 603 dps, while explosive shot does 323dps should have given you a hint something was wrong with his math.Me being wrong about anything?
Now THAT is the silliest thing I’ve heard all day.
Breaking down your math.
548 per hipshot. 603/s. This means you think its .91/s shot.
I time it at either .8 or .85.
548 and working backwards with .65 skill, and 1095 average weapon vs 2600.
you used 2005 or 2004 power. 2004 is of course zerker ammy, with runes of might or scholar in mists. although you mention divinity.
From there, you seemingly added no other damage buffs. crit damage, , 10 to rifle, 5% while bleeding, vul, scholar, str, 5% force.
Which is the main issue here. you can’t ignore something that increases your direct damage 65%. and ONLY your direct damage. That is the point. that is why direct damage outdamages conditions so much.
10% to rifle, 5% to bleeding, 5% force, 5% str, 4% (1% per boon) is +32.4% damage, then 25stacks of vul is another 25% (and again, scholar instead of strength, and 10% full end vs 4% boon is even more)
65.5% damage buff, that does not effect condition damage.
your 294 explosive shot.
.35*956*2004/2600=257.
.4=294
Explosive shot is .35, not .4. (it did used to be, your number is several months out of date?.)
Hip shot does in fact do more then twice as much damage then explosive shot direct.
Innately, and with the 10% damage buff, certainly.
(edited by Casia.4281)
wrong math, wrong traits. take your pick.
Claiming hip shot only does 603 dps, while explosive shot does 323dps should have given you a hint something was wrong with his math.Me being wrong about anything?
Now THAT is the silliest thing I’ve heard all day.
Breaking down your math.
548 per hipshot. 603/s. This means you think its .91/s shot.
I time it at either .8 or .85.
548 and working backwards with .65 skill, and 1095 average weapon vs 2600.
you used 2005 or 2004 power. 2004 is of course zerker ammy, with runes of might or scholar in mists. although you mention divinity.
From there, you seemingly added no other damage buffs. crit damage, , 10 to rifle, 5% while bleeding, vul, scholar, str, 5% force.
Which is the main issue here. you can’t ignore something that increases your direct damage 65%. and ONLY your direct damage. That is the point. that is why direct damage outdamages conditions so much.
10% to rifle, 5% to bleeding, 5% force, 5% str, 4% (1% per boon) is +32.4% damage, then 25stacks of vul is another 25% (and again, scholar instead of strength, and 10% full end vs 4% boon is even more)
65.5% damage buff, that does not effect condition damage.your 294 explosive shot.
.35*956*2004/2600=257.
.4=294
Explosive shot is .35, not .4. (it did used to be, your number is several months out of date?.)Hip shot does in fact do more then twice as much damage then explosive shot direct.
Innately, and with the 10% damage buff, certainly.
I factored in all those traits. That’s what overall damage at the bottom is. And Hip Shot is .91/sec. I timed it. It’s nowhere near .8, you should go back and redo your timing again. If it was .8 per shot you’d hit an even 12 shots in 10 seconds. You don’t. You hit 11.
As for Explosive Shot, that’s what the tooltip says so that’s what I’m going with. I don’t see any reason to try to reverse engineer the damage coefficient based on the tooltip when I could just, you know, use the tooltip. If you think the tooltip is wrong then go ahead and prove that on your own time.
Back on the grenades point, note that even pre-nerf the grenades only did 2.1k/s with direct damage, with all the trait bonuses factored in, and that even pre-buff the condition damage with Rabid gear is already also 2.1k. Multiply condition damage from Shrapnel by 2.5x and add potential bleed from having dual sigils of Earth (with the newest patch) and you’re potentially getting as much as 1k more per second, except of course it’ll cap at 25 so your max possible bleed will be about 2.7k/s. Meanwhile you can take 33% off from the direct damage number due to the damage nerf.
I get 24 shots in 20 seconds.
That is .833.
You need to use a longer period to refine that value.
Of course you can’t tell the difference between 11.1, 11.4, 11.9 shots in 10 seconds.
My grenades prenerf were
.5*920*2700/2600=477 base.
573.8 with % traits.
920 with crit.
2763 per throw
x24% with vul=3426
Also, at .85 cast speed, for 4008 dps. grenade 1 alone. Which is why they were nerfed.
(in an hgh build mind you, again, tools is potentially higher, if someone else gives you the might)
And of course, most players and npcs do not have 2600 armor. 5000 or 6000 dps was more likely.
IF you are in the mists, with pvp pistol and 2004 power, it says 258. Which is actually correct.
Mind you, not all tooltips are accurate.
(edited by Casia.4281)
Your times are off. I suggest you go back and check them. I’m getting 22 attacks in 20 seconds for rifle and 20 attacks in 20 seconds for grenade. In other words, .91 sec/attack and 1 sec/attack, respectively. It may be a problem with your stopwatch not matching up exactly with the game’s animations, or something. The best way to test times is to use an instant cast skill and then watch the recharge on it while counting the number of attacks.
So yeah, your numbers are inflated because you’re assuming things come out faster than they actually do. That may be part of the problem. Your equipped weapon also doesn’t affect the kit tooltip so you may be operating under more misconceptions than that.
Your times are off. I suggest you go back and check them. I’m getting 22 attacks in 20 seconds for rifle and 20 attacks in 20 seconds for grenade. In other words, .91 sec/attack and 1 sec/attack, respectively. It may be a problem with your stopwatch not matching up exactly with the game’s animations, or something. The best way to test times is to use an instant cast skill and then watch the recharge on it while counting the number of attacks.
So yeah, your numbers are inflated because you’re assuming things come out faster than they actually do. That may be part of the problem. Your equipped weapon also doesn’t affect the kit tooltip so you may be operating under more misconceptions than that.
No, the best way is to fire a skill, wait for the next attack, then begin your stopwatch.
Basing it on the in game tooltip cd is terrible.
Kit tooltip… what?
Kit damage is 872-969 averaging 920.
There’s a very easy way to see the difference. Guardian scepter is .83 seconds per swing. Go stand next to a guardian and note how he attacks faster than you.
I don’t see any reason to try to reverse engineer the damage coefficient based on the tooltip when I could just, you know, use the tooltip. If you think the tooltip is wrong then go ahead and prove that on your own time.
I’m gonna go ahead and say that you should pretty much never trust the tooltips in this game. I did in fact calculate the coefficients out for the majority of skills for 6 of the classes via smashing the heavy golem in the mists with steady weapons, and a good number of the tooltips are just flat out inaccurate in multiple ways, whether cooldown, damage dealt, or even number of hits done. Whenever I have access to my desktop again I’ll probably be putting it up, but in general I would say never trust the tooltip without actually testing it out first.
Also, under grenade kit, what is the “all” dps for, and what exactly did you use to calculate shrapnel dps?
It’s kind of weird how far out of line your predicted dps is compared to the analysis the other guy did. He did it as average damage overall a single grenade 1 + shrapnel would do over time via different builds and as compared to pre patch. I get that this also includes stuff like grenade 3, but still, in his analysis which was actually skewed towards condition builds, it actually had condition builds still being weaker than a crit damage build overall post patch. Maybe I’ll go over it again sometime, or just do an analysis myself.
(edited by omgwtflolbbl.7142)
I don’t see any reason to try to reverse engineer the damage coefficient based on the tooltip when I could just, you know, use the tooltip. If you think the tooltip is wrong then go ahead and prove that on your own time.
I’m gonna go ahead and say that you should pretty much never trust the tooltips in this game. I did in fact calculate the coefficients out for the majority of skills for 6 of the classes via smashing the heavy golem in the mists with steady weapons, and a good number of the tooltips are just flat out inaccurate in multiple ways, whether cooldown, damage dealt, or even number of hits done. Whenever I have access to my desktop again I’ll probably be putting it up, but in general I would say never trust the tooltip without actually testing it out first.
Also, under grenade kit, what is the “all” dps for, and what exactly did you use to calculate shrapnel dps?
It’s kind of weird how far out of line your predicted dps is compared to the analysis the other guy did. He did it as average damage overall a single grenade 1 + shrapnel would do over time via different builds and as compared to pre patch. I get that this also includes stuff like grenade 3, but still, in his analysis which was actually skewed towards condition builds, it actually had condition builds still being weaker than a crit damage build overall post patch. Maybe I’ll go over it again sometime, or just do an analysis myself.
If that was my analysis. it was pistols, pre-patch I did that math for. And I had made a mistake over valuing crit at first. Although the end result when fixed was the same, the margin was much much smaller. to the point of being pretty close. in a condition build anyway. Zerker annihilated it of course.